JustThinking

I'm writing this additional bit to clarify what I said above.

<snip>

I hope this helps the discussion. You can contact me through my profile on this web site if you have any further questions.

Cheers!

Charlene a.k.a. Penworks

Charlene,

Thank you for the clarification and your hard work. I still own all of the volumes and have used them on many occasions. One of your fellow 2nd corps grads was a friend and filled me in on the hard work that went into the project. One great use I found was to read parts of it to my kids when they were younger. King James is a bit much for kids but your translations were so much more approachable.

JT

Anyway, FWIW the coffee and burgers that I put together for field folks were made with love and respect (on my part, anyway). And it was nice to see you, to see some fresh folk, even if some of you didn't for obvious reasons hang around for long.

Twinky,

Thank you! I did enjoy them. Hated the trip but did appreciate the kindness and smile afterwards.

JT

That poor girl! Too bad the thread was highjacked by a VERY angry person. Thanks for this Cheranne!

JT

Edited to add ... I suspect if I had actually attended a few Twigs i would not have gone out WOW. And I am ratting out my beloved Hubby here and now.. when I married him and we ran our twig far from the Limb.. we only listened three times to SNS tapes. HE is my hero just for that alone. Those things were so horribly boring.

What a great way to look at it!!

It sounds like a really small group is burning DVDs for a small section of a small group. I HAVE to think that those who get the DVDs are viewed as more spiritual than the average "believer." :)

JT

No no no. I went directly to Bullinger..

Great translator in the Bullsh**ta text. I wish you could misunderstand it in the original.

JT

Okay this is my memory of SNS tapes..

Totally unrelated to the actual topic of this discussion but there it is something I think is funny now.. not so much at the time

Okay my first encounter with SNS tapes was on the WOW field NO big surprise there, I did not attend twig before becoming a wow I took the class and then a bit later went WOW I had attended a couple things but I was attending Business college full time and working full time no extra time for TWI

LOL any way back to the tapes so we of course would get a new one every week and we were supposed to listen to them

so our two WOW families would get together on a prescribed day and time to listen to the tapes and I swear to God there was three times in a row when we would be listening to it and everyone of us would be asleep... SNERK

any way our Resident Coprs Guy decided we had to sit up no more Lying on the floor to listen to the tapes, this presented a problem as we did not have enough chairs or such for all of us..o I am not sure how they were procured but folding chairs were found and we had one couch between the two families. ... and of course there we were nodding off all sitting in folding chairs all 7 of us... IT still cracks me up to this day. I am not sure if the teachings were that boring or if we were just that tired LOLOLOL I suspect a bit of both.

BTW 79-80 and some of those were VP... Of course I could remember it all wrong and they were way corps tapes but I am sure they were SNS tapes

Leafy,

You are bringing back memories! No sleep better than TWI-induced. We used to do the same thing as roommates. Until we got this corpse guy. Ugh. Then it was like being at headquarters. But in our basement. Really weird. The guy was nice but way too wayfer for me. The really bad part was the couch we had was SOOOO comfortable. It was leather and overstuffed. Wow, great place to watch sports, movies, anything! Except listen to SNS tapes. ZZZzzz.....

So you went WOW and had never been to twig before? I bet your family had a heart attack?!

JT

Yeah, they still do that.. They had VHS for a little while, and now have it on DVD...

It must be for those who think there must be some action missing from that mono-toned reading, erm.. I mean teaching..

Must be a joy to watch the person reading it in real color!! And all those 70-80s style step moves..

You do mean 1870s? I survived the 80's and even "The Robot" didn't look that bad.

I wonder how many wayfers subscribe but never watch them? One line I remember hearing was "No, I haven't watched/listented to that one yet. I'm working SNS Tape # xxx. But, once I'm done, I'll catch up." Hahahahahaha!!!! Most folks I knew subscribed once the LC reamed those who didn't get them. Of course, that was after HQ reamed the RC, etc. Like phone tag but the message leaves whip marks...

JT

Even when I was "in" most folk in TWI had no concept of International Outreach. They had no idea where most other countries were. There was a map of the world inset into some oval table in the Auditorium - with some countries not even shown even though there was space to put them.

Hello, hello! There is a world outside the USA, and it's not just for dropping bombs on, either.

The outreach model demanded by TWI didn't really work overseas (come to that, it wasn't so effective in the US, either). Door-knockers and people accosting potential recruits in shopping malls: not quite the European thing.

Most of Europe was "written off" by VPW and/or LCM as being "spiritually dark" because they weren't interested in the high-pressure sales techniques used by TWI.

Guam was counted as an international outreach country but it was really only noticed because US personnel were stationed over there.

Anyway, back to the point: there are still some Way-affiliated fellowships in other countries.

There is also a not insignificant number of splinter groups led by WC or sometimes not even WC. There's quite a brisk "outreach" in hooking these up together, but as individual fellowships or ministries.

There is a surprisingly high number of Wayfers or exWayfers in most European countries; also in some African countries. Some Europeans have set up fellowships or ministries. Some have gone back to mainstream churches.

Twinky,

Thanks for jogging my memory. Now I remember being at HQ for something and seeing flags in the OSC. My "host" told me they represented countries with standing TWI grads. When I started asking questions, it was typical TWI spin. Turns out, a US military person temporarily stationed somewhere got a flag. No outreach, no twig, nothing. Just "Joe Grad" passing through? Well, that's good enough for TWI!

I wonder how long it took a bunch of yokels from Ohio to figure out that Parisians would laugh at them and their sales techniques! Does anyone know how TWI operated in Europe? Was it the same sales model?

JT

All,

Before I left, I seem to remember TWI adding video versions of their Sunday Nights Service tapes. Did that actually start and, if so, do they still do that?

JT

Nah, people didn't much call it anything where I was at the time (northern Minisoda)as I just don't remember it being much of a topic for discussion amongst the locals, but I definitely remember some sort of blurb on a SNS tape like I already mentioned.

How it all shook out in real life, I don't really know, or much less, care. But, for trivia's sake, I thought I should pipe up...

George,

Sounds like we had the same level of interest then and now. :) I do remember someone telling me this long story about not naming it after VP then adding his name, etc. It was all lost on me as I was new so I just kept eating the free cookies. Oh, the girl was really cute too so I let her go on. Ahh, to be a teenager again! :)

JT

Was just perusing a friends recent Way Mag, and though the numbers were noteworthy..

According to the numbers announced for the 2009 Advanced Class 2009, it had only 69 attendees from 16 states, the two root locales (Gunnison and HQ), and one international. And then 70% of those attendees were teens, which makes about 48 teens and 21 adults!

I feel sorry for those kids growing up.. Looks like that's all that is left keeping the Way #'s up..

No fresh blood, just sacrificed kids!

And only 16 states?! Where'd they all go?

My TWI b.s. meter just went off. Did they say if the 69 people were ALL new students? It would be like them to add repeats, etc. to pump up the numbers.

JT

These types of threads I find silly.

They usually only look at the United States.

Good point. I was in during the 80's when references to international folks was more common. Before I left in the 90's, those comments stopped. Come to think of it, with the exception of Australia, I doubt it ever came up on SNS tapes, way mag articles, etc. Do you know if there is anything left of TWI outside the US?

JT

WOW!

I gave that W.C. book and about a dozen others to a former poster here for free!

Just as well.

I'm not interested in making money off that stuff.

(Not that it's wrong to do so---It's just not my bag.)

I did wonder about that. Is it wrong to sell the stuff? My thought was that only a dedicated Wayfer castaway would pony up that much cash so it was someone already deep in VPW doo-doo. I wouldn't fault anyone for feeling differently though. Who knows, I might feel differently tomorrow.

JT

It's just PFAL except a little more biblical and a lot less exciting.

LESS Exciting?!!! OMG. That's almost impossible to believe. My somewhat morbid curiosity is now taking over. I'd love to see a clip from it just to see what LESS boring that PFAL looks like.

JT

I recently sold a new copy of RHST for $70. Still in the plastic.

Chris just provides the classes and his new advanced class books. Most people who are in those circles haven't seen him at all since the way. Maybe around 2002 our fellowship tried to run one but they required us to start a registered corporation so the checks could be made out to a business checking account. They also have special forms that you have to fill out with a waiver. They give you gold stars in the front of your syllabus every time you do WIGP and you need so many to take their intermediate class. I don't know all the details because we didn't go through the trouble. I heard that for a while the Chicago area couldn't run classes after Rev. Guiarini died because no one was ordained . . . It's clear that he uses the class as a means of keeping all the groups that run it in line. They aren't all the same organization though. Also, the groups that run his classes are into WC's green and black book (which are actually pretty decent if you're into that sort of thing). He's not part of the same group though. In all the WIGP groups there's people who have been kicked out or told they couldn't run a fellowship for some reason or another. There's no shouting or sexual abuse, but they tend to be very persuasive and have a way of keeping everyone on exactly the same page. It doesn't feel like there's anyone in charge when you're in the groups but some how the men of God all agree on everything . . .

I don't know him but that and other descriptions make him sound a bit disturbed. Holes up on Maine and sends out a newsletter? Copies an old class and puts it out as his own? It doesn't seem to fit the description of a minister. It's almost sad. What else does he have in this life?

Bishop,

Have you taken his class or in some way familiar?

JT

Being now 20 years out and having firmly reestablished my agnostic roots, I'm aghast that there's STILL a remnant of dullards who haven't caught on to the scam.

Jeezus, wake up and smell the decade already...

Still one born every minute, George.

JT

From what I've gathered here at GSC, he works at the wholesale level. His customers are the retail outlets who market the product. A franchise operation, if you will. A bit like what the big hamburger chains do. That keeps him one step removed and out of the spotlight.

Thanks Waysider. Does that mean he doesn't have his own operation? Only licenses his class to others? As an aside, is gun ownership a requirement for taking his class? ;-)

JT

I'm also sorry for your losses. As another young victim, I have some understanding of how you must feel. Cults leave a trail of destruction which often take years to undo.

So, I'm glad you're here. The coffee is still very good. :)

JT

Does anyone know if CG charges for his class and how much?

JT

Thanks Shellon

It is a fine line to walk.

One I am willing to do for my wife.

Having dealt with the topic personally and with friends, I understand. I'll keep you in my prayers.

JT

The irony of the bureaucracy of TWI was that TWI was supposed to be "different". It was different alright. It was a hybrid of other religious legalistic structures which created a unique legalistic structure.

It wasn't that TWI was striving for a level of consistency throughout the organization. It wanted everything the same. Kinda like McDonald's, only for different reasons.

Consistent with whatever the view was AT THAT TIME, perhaps. Otherwise, the emotional swings of the MOG seemed to be most important. And they were certainly not always consistent.

JT

Was just perusing a friends recent Way Mag, and though the numbers were noteworthy..

According to the numbers announced for the 2009 Advanced Class 2009, it had only 69 attendees from 16 states, the two root locales (Gunnison and HQ), and one international. And then 70% of those attendees were teens, which makes about 48 teens and 21 adults!

I feel sorry for those kids growing up.. Looks like that's all that is left keeping the Way #'s up..

No fresh blood, just sacrificed kids!

And only 16 states?! Where'd they all go?

T&O,

Thanks for the info! A couple of questions, if you know:

How much is the AC class now?

Does it still come with the requirement for no debt?

Is it taught live or video?

My Way Rag subscription ended a LONG time ago so I'm a little out of date. :)

JT

Geeze Louise!

We used to have branch meetings bigger than that every week in the early 70's.

80s too. Are they still calling themselves the "faithful remnant" to justify shrinkage?

JT

I also think that in spite of all this most of the fellowships and twigs have provided some social safety net for the people that go to them. Being part of the way also gave people purpose and distracted them from destructive behavior - as most religion can. It also gave them a sense of belonging. I think many way people just went for that. I don't think that all of the people in the way have or do believe the doctrine that they teach. Just my opinion.

I would agree with this to a point. But it depends on when you were in and for how long. During the height of LCM's reign, TWI was directed to limit their witnessing strictly to the "middle class." When I asked what a middle class person looked like so I could pick them out at the mall, I got the usual "oh no, not his questions again" frown. During that time, you were expected to avoid those who might actually take less than they gave. And this was reinforced frequently but with nicer words.

BUT.... at many other times I saw folks invited to twig who seemed happy to be anywhere with people. Free cookies were a bonus. :) Some lacked social skills, others were just down-and-out types. I guess if you limit "some social net" to mean a place to belong, I guess I could agree. TWI wanted money and those folks were happy to pay a class fee to get into a group.

JT