sirguessalot

That was quite an evil thing to say, Goey. In fact, that whole last paragraph seems quite worthless and destructive. No, I do not think you are evil. But wow! Sorry [This message was edited by sirguessalot on April 13, 2003 at 1:12.]

I suppose that harmonies of light, like music, do not necessarily have to double in frequency to harmonize. There are octaves, but there are also 7 basic notes to consider within the octave. Some sound great together without having to double the frequency. A note with another, just 5 half-steps away (out of 12 in an octave) will get you a good sound. 7 half-steps will too. These are simple, but a blend of frequencies (chords), even within an octave, will produce some sort of resonance. Jump 11 half-steps and you get a beautiful oscillation (wobble) that you can set time to, though it would take something like 11 more repeated octaves of it before it was clean again. And even by then, it might just sound like a train wreck. I need more strings! Thank God for music software. In other words, harmony does not just happen when you jump a perfect octave. A 2 to 1 ratio is clean, but a frequency that fits inside 2/3 of an "octave" would sound good over 3 octaves, no? What about color? The relationship between primary and secondary colors remind me of chords? Heerz a thought: If the frequency of what we refer to as "spirit" cannot be seen because it is beyond the range of our visible spectrum, then it would make sense that there is both higher and lower frequencies of spirit, or maybe: supernatural and sub-natural colors? Or even sound. We can only hear certain frequencies (even with gadgets). If whatever spirit IS makes sound, would it not be both above and below what we can hear. Not just above. *** I guess what I am wondering now, is if the supernatural (higher and low harmonics of light and sound) are often regarded as being ONLY higher, or ONLY lower, depending on the slant of one's religious faith, or favorite cosmological model. *** Thanks for the poem, Matilda. Did you write it? If not, it would seem that the conversations on this thread happened to someone else before (and they probably have). Mike, yer getting addicted. ;)--> tng

Mike, I hope you didn't pay him much. (snarf!) goodnight

Right. Only a dumb a$$ would fall for such a trick. ;)-->

Re: Guru dawns: Funny. Wouldn't that be like selling glory that's free?

Thought we might enjoy this site: Reading Color and Light There are a gazillion other good sites. Just do a search on ?color wavelength? on any good search engine. I disagree with Zix. Harmonics do occur in light. Period. I agree with Zix. Just not within the quite narrow spectrum of visible light. Period. ;)--> Mike, the sun's nimbus around the shadow of an airplane in the middle of a full-circle rainbow would make a great view. Reminds me somewhat of the bible?s more psychadelic visions, where the shape of a man has both bright light and a rainbow around his head. Imagine holding a mirror between you and the sun while facing a light mist. Would a square or triangle mirror make a difference? How might a concave or convex mirror change things? btw ? this is not a quiz. I have never tried it. I do not know the answers. Just wondering in public. Rainbows, it seems, are not really in one place. If we were standing side by side, each of our rainbows would be appear in a different place. The rainbow we see is really on the flip-side of the prism of our eyes, though the light itself is not. For me, thinking of rainbows gives new meaning to that ole' bible promise to Noah. Or even an old Norse myth I read once or twice. tng

Mike, I don?t mean to seem like I?m drilling you with moot reasoning (though it is moot), and I do love to write often, and quickly. Besides, the relevence of ubiquitously hidden teachings fascinates me. Why wait months to ask if the questions are here now? Because it would be unfair of me to expect you to answer them all, I do not expect such. Maybe just the "bottom-liners." I also don?t think that GSers are grossly misunderstanding you (I?m not assuming you think that, but that you SEEM to think that). By now, I think us who?ve engaged your writing really do get the gist, sum and substance of what yer saying (It may be that it?s just taken a lot of rhetoric to get the gist out). Thus, hard questions for you seem an honest reaction on everyone's part, particularly in light of the magnitude of your claim. One promising paths to certain holiness might want to provide some sort of enlightening and empowering destination for people to grab onto. Something with handles on it, ya know? Cliche notions of ?all nine all the time? don't really seem to communicate the excellence of empowerment. (No, I do not doubt you?ve got more in store). So, by ?spiritual hardball,? I mean, the ?hows? of a holy man. The ?hows? of a re-pioneering saint, in whom Christ is forming towards 100%. I?m not asking for signs, and don?t tell me to stick my finger in that hole in your side. But, how does your PFAL canon address the real tough ?whats? and ?hows? of all those spiritual things that have baffled us for, lets say?the last 2k years? Let alone those things that are baffling us now, hear, today, which just seem to keep getting more puzzling and intense? Now, I?m not asking case-by-case specifics, that would be goofy. But the spiritual application for people?s lives who are going to be MOST IN CHRIST should leave some sort of a trail of signs, not just persecutions, right? Real spiritual power, right? And the perfectly renewed mind is 100% available? I?m not asking you to show a sign. Its clear that you believe the you OLGs are not up to par yet. But are you promising that signs will follow those OLGs who believe you (I hope so, for your sake)? Remember, Christ, Peter, and Paul hit the road and went to where the wildest sh!t was going in life, not just a public cyber-journal. And if this is really the best thing since THEN, well?where will you take OLGs to do God?s will? Palaces of Kings? Asylums? Academies? Prisons? Slums? Or just TWI-Splinter-Group Outreach? (TSGO) Would you accept a mother?s invitation to banish a series of foul spirits from her home? Would you OLGs risk yours and an adultress?s life by steeping in to stop a salivating lynch mob with a handful of perfect words? Do you believe OLGs would stop and heal the cancerous, schitzophrenic man at the freeway off-ramp, whose been wandering from hole to hole across the USA since he was destroyed at home and abroad by the Vietnam War? Cuz it seems these are some of the things that saints and prophets and holy men do. btw ? your marble in the vacuum schtick was poetic. ;)--> tng I?m a greaser, she?s a greaser, wouldn?t ya like to be a greaser too? Doo wap a doo da?Boop bop a doo wa?

Mike, Sorry, I just saw the post on the other thread. It DID answer SOME of it. But, that the PFAL writings are NOT as I describe them and that I am "off the mark" seems no more than a supposed point stated in absolution. And that my assessment of them is NOT acceptable to you seems a moot point. Gambling? "Just take it faith brother?" The route: an exclusive PFAL canon? Is this the only route for everyone to get to "all 9 all the time." Or the only route to being spiritual, period? Is this route simply for OLGs to study PFAL deeper than they ever have before? Where is "all 9" in that? Am I mistaken when I recall that you have dismiss the Advanced Class from your PFAL canon? Where then will one learn of the rest of the manifestations? That is the essence of "all 9," right? All 9 manifestations of holy spirit? "Just study PFAL again, and then - good luck. Its ALL 9 from there, you'll see?" Acts = praxis. What specific actions does your studies of PFAL prescribe? What disciplines, besides the book-worm kind, must OLGs adopt? "Then we can go out and have a revival in the PFAL movement, then do W.O.W. like it was supposed to be done in the first place?" *** I'm still genuinely unclear where your message is going, and where it addresses (or even acknowledges) SPIRITUAL HARDBALL. tng [This message was edited by sirguessalot on April 06, 2003 at 16:51.]

I'll add: The only reason I ask such a stream of questions, is because you seem to have set the hard-edged exclusiveness and urgency of your own message: "The best thing you OLGs could do with your life is rework PFAL." (correct me if I misunderstood.) I think some of us are just wondering when yer gonna get more clear and concrete with your spiritual promises of wisdom, seeing as how yer making such large, sweeping claims of abundance and blessing. tng

Mike, I understand how you are writing to a specific strata of grads (at least directly), and that your face is set like a flint in that, but where is the substance of your revelations? Where do you want to take these OLG you shake outta the tree? Is it just an invite to rework PFAL with the VP's secret time-capsule study-method with you? Or is there a new/old curriculum at the other end of it? Is it just beer-and-pizza-study-night-at-Mike's, or let's break ground for a new PFAL Academy and dorms? Surely, the largely entropic debates surrounding your writings at the GSC cannot be the end of it? Not even "cross-my-fingers and hope some lurkers heed my words, but I'll hafta wait and see if so at the bema" seems such a wise investment God would make? So, what is it? What do you want people to do? (Now I am speaking spiritually, in regards to forming Christ in you) If someone said, "I'll follow you all the way up that mountain, rabbi, so we can sit around the fire and you can reveal the true meaning of the parables to us," what will you do with them? What ARE your proposed practices? So far, most of what I've read is the stale prose of regurgitated PFAL. A slight variant, but same words, same nuances of language, same models, and same exclusive relationships of meanings. I hope you forgive me for saying so, but so far, it seems as if you've written mostly pie-in-the-sky-platitudes in VPs own "pen." Your writing seems to have such a stiff, restrictive language. Is that intentional? I often wonder if that that is why it takes you so long to write and respond (aside from the sheer volume of fan mail - you are a rock-star, after all). ;)--> (Not dissing your skills or your style, just wondering where the juice is.) No one? Really? Not now? Not since century 1? What about you? Are you then offering the means to all 9 all the time? Can you tell us what "all nine all the time" is like in today's world? You offering meat or you offering milk? Spit it out, man. How will people know how to respond to a wisdom if you only publish knowledge? Where are your tools? Where are the hard questions and answers? Are they being kept a secret until someone joins (for lack of a better term)? Now, I'm not tempting you to produce for a sign of proof, just wondering if you can really handle the real heavy subject matter to the point of instructing in the art of it? The art of living it? For sick people, for pregnant people, for dying people, for destroyed people, for proud people, for enslaved people, for cursed people, for the bewildered, the angry, the disturbed, the guilt-ridden, bored, the wild, and the numb? Wierwillian one-liners gonna do it? Wierwillian, lists, spread-sheets, formulas and diagrams gonna do it? So, the short questions to your answer: Do you know where you are going with all this? Are you on a spiritual need-to-know-basis? Cuz it seems to me that if the question is being asked, you might NEED to know, real soon. tng

Mike, Honest enough. Thanks And thanks for responding to the interrogatory. It was genuine. tng [This message was edited by sirguessalot on April 05, 2003 at 23:33.]

Mandii, Sorry if I have misinterpreted you... But... Mike, I do believe Mandii was addressing the putting of a man's SPIRIT/REVELATION on a pedestal, not their flesh or personality. It seems you missed her point and landed on the flip-side of your own dichotomy. For me, this about sums up my disagreement with your gospel = One-size-fits-all revelation. If VP got some rev, does it really meet everyone's needs? Everywhere? And if so, from now until when? I also think Mandii brought up some good points about the immediate vs long-term relevance of Peter's/Paul's revelations. They addressed specific needs, in specific forms, based on their own backgrounds. Maybe VP's ministery was just to "call out the lost hippies" of a single generation. But he, as well as his most die-hard sycophants, thought it was more than that. They thought they were giants. And maybe some still do. But the wineskin is old and dry (cuz VP and LCM drank it too fast and got blitzed on it instead?). I read in the epistles that drunkeness bears bad fruit. And revelation is often describe as a wine. selah ---- One more thing. Fans (fanatics) of many genres and mediums of writing spend years examining the "mathematical precision" and remarkable symmetry hidden in the words of their idols. You ever count and compare the words of Dante, Saint Francis of Assisi, Tolkien, Da Vinci, or Thomas Jefferson? Their subtleties and perfections, too, can be breathtaking. And most of them also highly regard the Bible. There are entire sub-genres of minutae-fascination in all important writings. One of my favorites is the Led-Zeppelin/JRR Tolkien connection. For what its worth, tng

ex, yer too cool. Ya know, I don't think you can stand inside your own rainbow, cuz it'll run from ya. But you can stand in another's. Reminds me of that cliche about only being able to feed each other in heaven. but... You can only stand in your friend's rainbow. (sumthin like that.) ...or even: "Hey, you! get yer *** outta my rainbow!" ;)--> goodnight

One more: Double Rainbow site Nice shot on this one!

Lindy, I think they are reverse. http://www.doublerainbow.com/ This site has an artist's rendition, in which the violet is on the inside. But I found that this is the wrong order once I found these other two sites: Double Rainbow Photo This one is a photograph, and it appears that the red is on the inside for both rainbows. Double Rainbow answers These questions were answered by a meteorologist. Then I found this site: Double Rainbow "cult" ;)--> enjoy tng

I think the colors of a double rainbow are: (blue sky) Red Orange Yellow Green Blue Purple (blue sky) Purple Blue Green Yellow Orange Red (blue sky) Lindyhopper, Just curious, were you in the air when you saw the triple? Or on a mountain or something? Simpleton, I've wondered about the 7-vs-6-colors thing too (not cuz of LCM's words. I never even heard that til now). There does seem a puzzle among colorists about how many colors there really are. A color-wheel has 3 primary colors and 3 secondary colors where the primaries overlap. According to this, the two shades of purple on a rainbow are really just two shades of a single color (for some reason). But maybe 7 colors make more sense on a double rainbow than a single, because the MID POINT between the TWO rainbows is actually CLEAR, which is really then BLUE sky where the last band of PURPLE unravels and overlaps the blue sky at the middle/inside of the spectrum. Hence, a bluish-purple violet/indigo quandry. Either that, or my memory is bad and red is the inner-most color, and my whole theory just jumped backwards out its own ***. ;)--> But even then, red and blue would make purple as well, no? But I DO at least remember the colors of a double being inverse in order. Thanks E, This one's for you: As dusk and dawn remind us Of the life and death of our days The winking sun assures us Of a secret bridge, gate and way For while that star lingers Against quiet ocean and mirror beach, Hope is never a secret, And is where every eye can see. tng

Just some thoughts and questions on rainbows: The center of a rainbow is exactly opposite the sun (or light that is causing it). If you could see a rainbow without the earth in the way, it would be a full circle or ring, and your shadow (if there's a surface for it to fall upon) would be inside of the circle, your head being the centermost point. The brightness of the sun would appear as a bright nimbus around the shadow of your head. A natural rainbow is seen best at dawn and dusk, when the sun is shining most "sideways" through the atmosphere. I don't think a sun-caused rainbow can be seen at noon. What causes double rainbows? I'm not sure. Moving from the outer to inner band, what is the order of colors on both bands of a double rainbow? I wrote it down when I saw one once, but can?t find my notes, and I hear double rainbows are difficult to reproduce. ;)--> I do remember that the order of colors is reversed on the outer rainbow. Funny thing is, as beautiful and as sublime as rainbows are, they're not really where we see them. They're not even in or on our eyes. Rainbows only exist in our brain. No one sees the same rainbow as you do. And that's kinda cool. Thoughts? [This message was edited by sirguessalot on April 03, 2003 at 17:38.]

Goey, pure arrogance may be over-the-top. Particularly the "pure" part. We're all mixed drinks (btw - I know it was IMO. And my name is spelled with a lower case "s"). ;)--> Rafael, seems to me any number of character traits could motivate delusions of arcane grandeur. I suffer from a few myself, arrogance only being one of them. (yuk yuk) I am actually surprised no one else wanted to play a dichotomy game. (what, everyone here has a social life? Yeah, right.) Its easy. Just start with a pair and grow it from there (that sounded vulgar). The first words determine the character and plane of the polarity. Is it UP and DOWN, or RIGHT and LEFT? It is HOT and COLD, or GOOD and EVIL? It is COKE and PEPSI, or GW BUSH and MICHAEL JACKSON? SPIRIT/FLESH HEAVEN/EARTH LIVING/DYING GOOD/EVIL POSITIVE/NEGATIVE PUSH/PULL HEAT/COOL HOT/COLD STEAM/ICE GAS/SOLID FART/POOP Oops, I went a little Frank Zappa on ya. But it IS a game. Any takers? Mike? I know its not exactly the response yer wanting, so let me know if its too off topic for ya? Its your thread, man. I wish yood play tho. tng

Mike, Honestly, I'd like to ask the same thing as mj412: How do you presume to know what was missed by whom? And: Did you (and/or the one who taught you your doctrine) actually track down that many older-leader-grads and quiz them? What part, if any, of your data is ascertained? Either way, are these results part of the volumes of data you keep referring as your evidence/witness? tng

It seems the good rabbi wants us to retemorize a covert list of dualities, which someone had surgically removed from VPs spinal cord and entrusted to him. We are then to cross-reference this top-secret formula with select passages from KJV in order to crack the spiritual code. Good students will be graded on the length of their phylacteries. ;)-->

Mike, Please, don't get me wrong, I love the fresh air and envigorating exercise that comes from engaging the exotics of this forum. And you fascinate me at times. Not quite the clogged-sewer type of fascination. Nor is it awe. I watched the ?Banger Sisters? last night, and heard a line that reminded me of your GSC approach: ?Stop resisting me. It?s just making you upset.? ;)--> Amen No, it?s just the case that your reporting is insistant and graceless to the point of becoming unfruitful and irrelevant, for which I will allow you to throw yourself into the mud. There does seem a greater degree of hospitality among scriptures' successful holy men, not that it always works out for them, but more often than not it does, especially hospitality among those perceived as brethren, for agape?s sake. Apologies. I did not mean to seem to assume such. I actually have never assumed such a thing. I do not doubt the volumes you have in store for the GSC and/or your initiates. Just, why do you seem to hold ignorance of YOUR yet-to-be-concealed mysteries against everyone? I'm sure you'll claim you don't, and I'll even go as far as to say that you honestly do not want to. Not that you see people as less for moral reasons, but maybe less out of tough luck. And it's your job to bridge the gap of fortune, right? "If they only knew what they're missing, they'd be better off then they are." Been there, done that. Regardless, your rebut does not really seem to address the problem I mentioned anyway. (cough/bull$hit!) ;)--> (cough/bull$hit!) ;)--> Do you feel like Paul at times, trying to get home to rescue a bunch of ?flunkees? from the nostalgic days of his beloved cult, to the point of allowing himself get the crap beat out of him for no reason other than he thinks that persecution validates this new revelation that will save them from a dying branch? Heerz another dichotomy for ya: SPIRITUAL - - - - - - CARNAL Sacrifice/Charity - - Martyrdom/Waste Wisdom - - - - - - - - Foolishness Re: Problem #5: I know you do. Have you really seen THE truth, or some truths? I didn?t know THE truth had been revealed yet. How in the heck did I miss those fireworks? ;)--> Re: playing the ?Truth is always only simple? card: Sure, comprehending truth in micro IS comprehending a simplicity. Orthodox, too, is founded on the need for simplicity. Comprehending truth in macro is comprehending a simplicity too. Question is, how many simplicities are there to comprehend? 1? 2? 3? 4? 5? 6? 7? 8? 9? 10? High high do we count before the numbers get too complicated? I remember when counting to 100 for the first time was a big deal. I was too young to remember counting to 10 for the first time though. That must have been simple. Heerz another dichotomy for ya: SPIRITUAL - - - - - - CARNAL Simple - - - - - - - - - Easy Simplicity - - - - - - - Banality Transcendent - - - - - Ridiculous Witness - - - - - - - - - Proof/Evidence Mysteries of God - - - Esoteric Mysteries Profound truths - - - - Cryptic and arcane enigmas Tree - - - - - - - - - - - - Idol Planted - - - - - - - - - - broken/uprooted Growing - - - - - - - - - Dying Free - - - - - - - - - - - - Purchased Anyway, I thought of a few more ?chotomies? for us to chew on. But I fear that they will just not live up to those revelations someone else has shown you. Although I do hope you live up to your promise to celebrate others? PFAL finds someday. SPIRITUAL - - - - - - - - CARNAL Righteous Law - - - - - - - Unrighteous Law Law of life and liberty - - - Law of sin and death God - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Mammon Tree - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Cross This one is reversed, front to back: CARNAL - - - - - - - - - - - - - SPIRITUAL Past - - - - - - - Present - - - - Future Faith - - - - - - Love - - - - - - Hope Asymmetry - - - Equilibrium - - - Symmetry Body - - - - - - Soul - - - - - - Spirit The Cross/Tree of Christ - two intersecting planes of dichotomy? (Where ?satan walks the earth,? up and down and to and fro): CELESTIAL PLANE (both height and depth): Alpha - - - - - Kingdom of Heaven - - - - Omega Above - - - - - Horizon - - - - - - -- - - Below Up - - - - - - - Height- - - - -- - - - -- - Down In - - - - - - - - Depth - - - - -- - - - - - Out Christ - - - - - Heart - - - - - - - - - - - - Adam Heaven - - - - Man - - - - -- - - - -- - - Earth TERRESTRIAL PLANE (both breadth and length): Male - - - - - - Neuter- - - - - - - - - - Female Right - - - - - - Middle - - - - - - - - - - Left Lion - - - - - - -Man - - - - - - - - - - - - Lamb Carnivore - - - Omnivore - - - - -- - - -Herbivore King - - - - - - - Kingdom - - - - - - - - -Theif Gnashing- - - - Light/Darkness - - - - - Weeping Rage - - - - - - -Peace/Tribulation - - - Sorrow Beast - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -Whore Heir - - - - - - - Marriage - - - - -- - - - Virgin Seed - - - - - - - Fruit - - - -- -- - - - - Flower Fruit - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -Seed Leaf - - - - - - - Wood - - - - - - - - - - -Root Husband - - - - Child - - - - - - - - - - - - Wife Christ - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -Church Using VPs paradigm to represent juxatapositions of conception and development of the Son of Man (Adam and/or Christ): ADMINISTRATION Paradise - - - - - fetus - - - - - - - conception Patriarchal - - - -newborn - - - - - fetus Law - - - - - - - - child - - - - - - - embryo Christ - - - - - - - adolescent - - - - labor Grace - - - - - - - - adult - - - - - - - birth Wrath - - - - - - - - elder - - - - - - - swaddling Paradise - - - - - - - death - - - - - - manger But it seems that other men?s divisions of ?God-Time? present paradigms of their own. Some divide things into 4 times. Some into 3. Some into 9. Some into just 2. They seem to have relevent application, as long as they are not considered THE ONE AND ONLY penultimate formula required to initiate any comprehension of heaven and earth. That is when they seem to lose life (from being so caged). Anyway, making this sh!t up as I go along. Carry on, tng [This message was edited by sirguessalot on April 01, 2003 at 18:14.]

double doop post - what the heck is going on?

doop post..oops

GSC, Please forgive me if my notes are considered copious, but I like to write, and Mike enjoys the rigamorole. Besides, this is his thread. ;)--> But, as mentioned elsewhere recently, the GSC's doctrinal table seems a more suitable venue for this stuff anyway (unless you really want everyone see your headlines at the top of the paper). Oh well. Mike, Honest question for ya: Does persecution strengthen your faith? If so, heerz a quote that might make ya chuckle (or weep): "Success is going from failure to failure without a loss of enthusiam." Winston Churchill. OK, Problem #1 - you seem to assume everyone else is more stupider than you. Problem #2 - you seem to assume everyone else missed the EXACT same things you did in your own PFAL experience. Problem #3 - you seem to assume that only those mysteries YOU have found in PFAL are worth the most. Problem #4 - you seem to assume everyone else who wishes to be as smart as you about PFAL should be as willing as they are able to solve your riddles and find the cheese at the end of your maze. Problem #5 - you seem to assume everyone else will marvel at the simplest of paradigms. I can only suggest that THESE are the problems you should be trying to solve, my friend. And if you can, you may just meet more minds and hearts than that silent audience your faith is telling you is out there. Otherwise, Are you suggesting we hafta get into VP?s mind in order to understood what his words meant to him, in order to understand advanced/basic PFAL, in order to understand the bible, in order to understand/get into the Kingdom of Heaven? a.k.a - ?Light through a Wierwillian Window? or ?Wierwillian Mannerisms that Perplex the Greasespot Mind?? That would be quite a camel-load of apparatus you want us to squeeze through the eye of the needle, dude. Also, are you suggesting that recognizing VPW's dichotomies in PFAL is a sign of spiritual maturity? Maybe even THE sign of spiritual maturity? I can?t help but wince at your being confounded and awestruck by some rather universal concepts of heaven and earth. Regardless, I'll play along. Although I will step outside the lines of your FORMula of duality for understanding da verd. Sorry - I know how you hate to step outside of cages and boxes, but some have been playing these kinds of word games since we were kids, long before we learned PFAL lingo. Dichotomy: Division into two usually contradictory parts or opinions. Alpha - - - Omega First - - - - Last Beginning - - End Above - - - Below In - - - - Out Within - - - Without Life - - - Death Light - - - Dark Eternal - - - Temporary Immortal - - - Mortal Love - - - Hate Hope - - - Sorrow Spirit - - - not-spirit Heaven - - - not-heaven Light - - - not-light Good - - - not-good Quickened - - - not-quickened Holy - - - not-holy The God - - - not-The God ONE - - - NOTHING That was fun. Lets set it on its side: Right - - - Left Male - - - Female Husband - - - Wife Give - - - Take Push - - - Pull Lion - - - Lamb Carnivore - - - Herbivore Lets turn it some more: Light - - - Dark White - - - Black Blue - - - Orange Yellow - - - Purple Red - - - Green Ok, now I'm dizzy. There also seems quite a few neutral bibilical concepts that seem to exist on BOTH sides of a spiritual/natural dichotomy: king thief lion rain tree fruit spirit god woman man child father benign malevolent So, how bout a trichotomy? - just to keep from splitting the universe in two like those crazy naked kids did in paradise? spirit - - soul - - - - body positive - neutral - - negative in - - - - middle - - - out up - - - - middle - - - down light - - form/color - shadow/reflection life - - - knowledge - nourishment and pleasure law - - - free - - - wild Why not draw a dichotomy through a trichotomy to make a sextachotomy so we might try a more complex model of what it might be to be a human being? right spirit/left spirit right mind/left mind right flesh/left flesh or inner spirit/outer spirit inner mind/outer mind inner flesh/outer flesh or masculine spirit/feminine spirit masculine mind/feminine mind masculine flesh/feminine flesh or carnivorous spirit/herbivorous spirit carnivorous mind/herbivorous mind carnivorous flesh/herbivorous flesh Or maybe flip it on end for some sort of inverse: 1 - Inner spirit - eternal life 2 - Inner soul - - automatic life 3 - Inner flesh - internal systems 4 - Outer flesh - appearance 5 - Outer soul - - expression of self 6 - Outer spirit - spiritual manifestation That would be a tough equilibrium to get on top of, let alone maintain all yer life? What about a nonachotomy to express an even more manifold model? - - - - - RIGHT - - MIDDLE - - LEFT IN - - - - spirit - - spirit - - spirit MIDDLE - mind - - mind - - - mind OUT - - - flesh - - flesh - - flesh (Mike, the line of your dichotomy would fit horizontally through the row of minds in this model.) Hey, maybe even a decadichotomy - a system of 6 oppositions (12 forces) to express that marriage at the end of the world where heaven and earth finally meets again in whatever "New Jerusalem" means? If I was more enthused about it, I might try to express it by whipping up a jpeg using concentric circles rather than straight 2-D lines and graphs, or even concentric spheres. But I'm not. In cosmological models, it seems that the numbers of sub-axis at any given crosshairs can and do diversify the more you reason, based on how much space you want to give them (i.e. how much free-time/space you want to blow on it.). But that eventually leads to chasing the dragon across the face of the deep, I suppose. Ultimately, it seems that we can express spiritual paradigms that can never be 100% accurate or ultimate. They have limited application, as well as limited shelf-life. They can be quintessential in character, even sublime. But baptising snapshots of cosmological formulas and pushing them as THE key seems one of the oldest human rackets there is. How deep is God? How high is heaven? How dark is that darkness? How many rungs are there on Jacob's ladder? Vanity of vanities, saith the preacher, all is vanity. No problem for me. ;)--> tng [This message was edited by sirguessalot on April 01, 2003 at 4:36.] [This message was edited by sirguessalot on April 01, 2003 at 4:39.]

Pat, This past few days have been dark and wierd where I am. Everyone seems different. Even the weather seems nervous. I have even had trouble keeping my head on as straight as usual. I am out of step in many ways. TNG