sirguessalot

I hear ya, def59. I would venture to say that good seed was sown, but it fell on stony ground. It took root, but got baked by the sun in the same generation it came. Sad, but I bet it happens all the time. [This message was edited by sirguessalot on July 20, 2003 at 22:48.]

Mike, Have I told you how I admire your willingness and tenacity to defend your position? Well?I do. The uncommon nature of your declarations has stirred an equally uncommon tempest at the GSC, both of which have helped me to further understand my PFAL/TWI experience. I love this place, and I?m truly glad you came. I have healed greatly. Thanks, GSC. Of course, I can only speak for myself. (I know, it?s a nasty habit I picked up somewhere). And I am not claiming that my PFAL experience was greater or lesser than anyone else?s. I honestly can?t do that. And I honestly wish you would apply the wisdom of this approach, Mike. But I will compare my PFAL experience to yours, regardless of whether or not you will honor my contribution. And I?ve told you this before: I would concede more points for some of your PFAL arguments, but I trust you less and less, the more you respond. Not that I think your heart is dark, but that your judgement is at least dark gray regarding things that I know that I know that I know, and things that I know that you do NOT know about me, but continue to dismiss as somehow inferior (and this bone-to-pick with you seems a common theme here). But I am also a moody creature, and I am in a new mood today. So I will begin to concede some points to your arguments, even at the risk of your manipulations, as well as a heap of tomatoes from friends. Like you, I do believe VPW learned things from God and that PFAL is God-breathed. But unlike you, I believe that God breathes more frequently than this, especially AFTER Pentecost. And that VPW?s style of contribution is but a drop in the ocean. And that his errors did affect his ability to give. But God does make lemonade out of lemons. Thus, we can learn from PFAL. Why would God ?breathe? any less, when it is clear that MORE revelation than in the OT or Gospels is NOW available to ALL who come, and has been for 2k years? If you mean that the TVT had lost most of its fun by then, I would agree. But if you mean that no one could learn as much from PFAL after the 80?s (except what you have learned, of course), you contradict yourself greatly, and I think YOU actually cut yourself off from a heap of understanding that is available from PFAL. How can corrupt traditions keep God from teaching genuinely meek people things from PFAL if God inspired it? Especially if the corrupt traditions are being ignored by the student, therefore allowing years of fruitful study and application in relative isolation from TVT. sound familiar? This was me just a few years ago. I've come a long way since. Difference is, YOU suffered from many more years of TVT than I did, and have had a lot more to get over. When TVT really hit me in the corps training and chased me off, it was AFTER those years I was allowed to consistently receive, retain and release, according to what I was learning. And ?always find the application? was my self-set guideline for ALL of my reading and writing. Just because you haven't found an application for a section of scripture using the "PFAL method," does not mean no one else has. That seems an arrogant and/or naive assumption. Besides, if corrupt TVT can really stop God from teaching the meek, what does that say about God?s ability and willingness? Not much, I?d say, which is again, one of my major beefs with you. It bothers me how you presume to know what everyone experienced in TWI better than they themselves. And I?m sure this cuts many to the bone. And there is no fellowship in it. Remember why the dead sea is dead, Mike? I've asked you this before. Well, I gotta go for now, but I?ll be back tonight to pick up where I left off. Maybe I'll tell ya about all the OLGs I knew, who came back to TWI after leaving for over a decade. They become my dearest friends while in TWI. I was their teacher, and they were mine, in all those manifold expressions of grace and believing and love. Todd [This message was edited by sirguessalot on July 20, 2003 at 22:46.]

Thanks Ginger Have a good night

Good point Shaz, I recall that I despised TVT, but dug the books. The rules and customs and bumper-sticker mantras of TWI never really jived with what I was getting out of it anyway. And it was like that for a lot of innies I knew. --- Mike, I got some sleep and feel better now. New questions for ya: Why don't ya stop mastering the tools and actually start using them? Honestly This is why I brought up the Book of Revelation in the first place. Seems to me that if PFAL is the most powerful and relevant God-breathed Bible-aid, then you should be able to USE it to understand any part of the bible. Those hard-to-understand parts. I can't find a single scripture that backs how "it will only be understood by those in the time the events are coming to pass." Sounds like a big cop-out. Like "just take it on faith, brother." The keys to the Word's interpretation? Remember? So put yer money where your mouth is. Stop bragging about PFAL and demonstrate. Show us how to use it to unlock the secrets of those most puzzling sections of scripture that VPW never refers to. Are they still valid for godly wisdom? And if not in the book of Revelation. How bout the book of Job? The flood? Daniel's visions? The wierd stuff in Isaiah and Jeremiah and Ezekial? All those poetic little books before the Gospels. So, to whom are the different parts of the book of Revelation addressed, for example? How are the dominant figures of speech used in it? Administrations covered? Orientalisms? Scripture interpreting itself? Previous usage? Scripture build-up? I mean, are the PFAL principles valid for learning or not? Don't make me dig out my groovy biblical principles bookmarks. ;)--> --- GingerT, I think the world of ya, and I think I know where yer coming from. This whole Mike vs all ex-TWI thing is somewhat compelling. And somewhat personal. There are a lot of blanket accusations behind his sermons, and they're levelled at everyone here, more or less. For me, it's hard not to get grumpy. But I do think the nastier responses wash off quite easy, in most cases. Todd ;)-->

I'm not sure.

Mike, you are astonishing. I almost regret posting anything to you. Sorry

Why not?

Ok, I?ll write while yer gone to save time. --- I finally realized, that if one is gonna brag about writings that are to usher in the next administration, one should also be able to explain those now-obsolete writings that already claim to do the job. Master 5 senses before spiritual revelation, and all that. ;)--> But I?ll keep this short, seeing as how you are limited on time. I hope you see how it pertains to your thread. --- Towards the end of the first century, John writes that Jesus Christ himself sent him a spiritual message (angel). Yes, this would make it the last recorded teaching of Jesus Christ in the KJV. (Although I doubt it is the last thing he has ever taught or done since. Thief in the night, blessings beyond Israel, and all that.) The book is written with the strongest style of symbolism and figures of speech. Remember how important those are? God uses them to emphasize a point, right? These points must be big then. John is describing images (And I recall that Ezekial studied the shapes of his vision for a full month before he got the words for it). And heerz an important biblical research principle at work somehow: ?The time is at hand,? is a condition set forth by John in the third verse of the whole book. To John, that must mean "now," right? Then, the revelation expresses the condition of and wisdom for the seven churches in Christ?s hand. 7 churches in HIS hand? Not just 1 church? Then, the book expresses a heavenly view of Christ?s ascension. Looking backward in time, I guess. And there?s a real pantheon of critters present. Elders (not angels)? Beasts at the foot of the throne? I swear, one must represent a monkey or something (a beast with a face like a man?). :P--> Then there is a NEW song sung in heaven. Then some never-before broken seals are broken immediately after the ascension. So, we might assume that they have been broken ever since? Or has the universe frozen on REV 6:1 for 2k years? Anyway, it goes on and on with signs, seasons, days and years. Bowls, Trumpets, beasts, ten-headed dragons, spirits likes frogs, virgins, whores, miracles, floods, bizaare locusts, and social, political, environmental changes, etc? A treasure of fun symbolism to track down and ponder. Great applications for life. Great historical insight. --- But... Why would God and Jesus go through all the trouble of delivering this complex angelic message about 1900 years ago if none of it applies? Hasn?t PFAL got to jive with the book of Revelation to supercede it, or even exist in harmony with it? Did not Jesus Christ himself sent this one, 1900 or so years ago, AFTER his ascension, AFTER he appeared personally to Paul, and AFTER the first century church had run its course? Does not this personal message from Jesus Christ supercedes Paul?s personal message from Christ? Did VPW get such a personal message from Christ? Why does PFAL, like most schools of thought, seem to flat out ignore it, and ever explain it away as mere future? (I do guess its better than flipping out over it like others do. You know what I mean?) Todd

The whole book, Mike.

Mike, Sorry. I am talking about his last teaching recorded in the KJV, after the ascension, given to and recorded by some John dude on an island. Whether or not it was the last teaching appearance he has made since the first century is another subject, quite outside the bounds of your thread topic. But the subject might make enlightening discussion. I'll leave that up to you. ;)-->

Mike, thinking of importance of books... I often wondered why the last teaching of Jesus Christ is neglected in the PFAL books (meaning that VPW refers to very few scriptures from that book). But final instructions to followers are quite important, right? Then it seems to me, that if PFAL is THE cutting edge of bible-aid, it would address Christ's final parables--those lessons he gave in his most advanced spiritual state of being. Where does the PFAL canon teach us how to understand these very important teachings of Christ? Here is an answer I might once have given: "It was written to give us hope. We are not meant to fully understand it because it is not addressed to us, but to those people who will live in that administration, such as post-grace Israel." Problem is, I have yet to find where Jesus expresses this. Seems to me, that he often expresses the timing as NOW and FUTURE, meaning: beginning from when he gave the revelations and since then. I have many more new questions for you when you ready. Todd [This message was edited by sirguessalot on July 16, 2003 at 18:03.]

Yeah, I just spent a few days in Sedona and browsed around the metaphysical bookstores. VPWs doctrines do seem less and less unique as the years go by.

Hi Mike and Ginger and the rest, I?m trying to shoehorn smoothly as well. But it is hard to do with this thread. RE: PFAL and the Book of Job and selling fear-formulas: I re-read the book of Job the other night and thought of it in terms of this thread and the law of believing, PFAL, among other things. It seems to me, that PFAL really failed to express most of the wisdom of this story. Almost as if the ?law of believing? was, in PFAL, the whole essence of the drama, particularly the consequence of fear. Because PFAL never seems to address the specifics of Job?s ?positive believing? that got him restored. (And if this wasn?t the essence, how are we then to understand the book of Job via PFAL alone?) Mike, does PFAL blame consequence on fear, therefore equating fear with sin? Because Job?s 3 friends did. And then Elihu took it a step further by claiming some sort of pinnacle of spirituality. They expounded on the various ?unbreakable? laws of God, which Job must have broken. And they did it by telling Job how just God is, and how reliable his laws are, and how much more spiritual they were than Job, etc? But Job knew he hadn't sinned. And THIS was the essence of his integrity. NOT his believing in the word of God. NOT his love for God. In fact, Job really cussed God good for wronging him. And for filling the world with injustice. Job knew that he knew himself better than God or anyone. And he was p!ssed about it. Funny thing is, that in this story, they were all wrong. No Hollywood ending here. God chastened them--Job too. For what? Because NONE of the characters of the story truly understood why things happen and how all things work. They should have all just kept their mouths shut and mourned with their friend, rather than foolishly try to package God?s laws and principles into the righteous formula to explain him to himself. Sh!t DOES happen to innocent people, regardless of their fear or faith. And there is always so much more to the story than we can know. And nothing about us can be so broken that God will not fix it in season. To me, this is more comforting than any success-or-failure formula. Makes life and love into an art form again, rather than a program. Like Japanese Gardening or something. Todd

Hi, Pat. That's interesting news. Maybe part spin and part wake-up on RRs part? Anyway, I'm sending you an email. Say hi to the fam for me. Mike, The challenge was for us all. You and the mission of your thread is just a good clear example of the issue. Sorry.

Always always nice to see you too, Ex. :D-->

Can anyone spare a sec for someone who just skims? I have a few questions and thoughts. Why do the stakes seem so high to so many of you/us/me at times, particularly regarding this issue of "The Way to God?" Really, what is it about us that is so threatened by our mortal failures that God cannot restore in time? What is so spiritually fleeting? Our place in the hierarchy of blessings, or something? I doubt it. All facets of Christianity more-or-less seem to agree that Christ is the only way to God. So, biblicaly, what is wrong with the idea that there are MANY ways to Christ? Seems that all these religious debates within bibledom are wrestling over who knows the one-and-only way to Christ, or the most excellent way to Christ, or the even most-honest way to Christ, etc... Foolishness. Vanity. Carnal. maybe? For example, Mike insists that his specific way to VPW is the best and quickest way to Christ (who is the only way to God). And he (Mike) is the only one who knows this, which makes him also the best way to VPW, and therefore the best way to Christ, who is the only way to God. Mike, doesn't it seem that there are a few extra links in this express stairway to heaven? Failure seems more of an option than most of bibledom wants to admit or allow. Otherwise, Christian spirituallity is more Darwinian than anything else (to use a cliche). Only the spiritual strong survive?!? gag me. Only the spiritually lucky? yeah right. Only the spiritually willing? whatever that means. In other words, does God want us to be so darn right about everything that we chop each other to bits over whose way to Christ is best? Mike, is it the law of the jungle, or the law of love? Is there even a difference? Todd

Karmic, Saturday at 1 sounds cool. 1 or 2 in my party, depending on schedules. Can you email me a street address and phone number when the shindig is near? btw - my background check has quite a few "beer stains" on it. ;)--> I was a party animal once. I might have a few character witnesses at the GSC who can vouch for me tho. ------- Looks like most of ya are from the "TWI 1" era. I hope ya don't mind a mid-90s twigger like me. I think it'll be fun to compare stories. Todd

Ok, now for the boring part. Confirmation. This thing sounds more-or-less planned, and I'm game, but I'm still not sure if I'm even going. I hate to just show up at a stranger's house cuz the internet told me too. RSVPs or something? Are we close to a time, a date, an agenda, or an address? Is anything taboo? (cuz I can bring that) ;)-->

Rocky, Thank you. Also, I got yer email and replied.

Hey, this shindig sounds cool. Is it an open invite? Cuz I'm game. I doubt I've ever met most of ya, but I'd love to meet all of ya. and Ditto on the "Saturday please." Todd --- btw - for any exway who are near the Ahwatukee/Chandler area, feel free to stop in and visit me at the art gallery. I'm usually here all day by myself, and it really is a ghost town for an outdoor gallery this time of year. In other words: somebody please bring me a conversation (good or bad) and some coffee (good or bad)! ;)--> Email me for specifics if yer interested. I am.

WARNING THOUGHT-STOPPER ALERT 60 SECONDS TO IMPACT You sound like a zombie slave from mars. Either that, or the Matrix has you. failure detected in primary module:PFAL bzzzzt.tic.tic.tic....PFAL....PFAL..... bleep bleep bleep bzzzzt.tic.tic.tic....PFAL....PFAL..... compiling data bzzzzt.tic.tic.tic....PFAL....PFAL..... bleep bleep bleep bzzzzt.tic.tic.tic....PFAL....PFAL..... does not apply does not apply discard discard bzzzzt.tic.tic.tic....PFAL....PFAL..... bleep bleep bleep bzzzzt.tic.tic.tic....PFAL....PFAL..... dichotomy breach...dichotomy breach bzzzzt.tic.tic.tic....PFAL....PFAL..... bleep bleep bleep bzzzzt.tic.tic.tic....PFAL....PFAL..... emotional override activated reponse scheduled bzzzzt.tic.tic.tic....PFAL....PFAL..... bleep bleep bleep bzzzzt.tic.tic.tic....PFAL....PFAL..... information leak detected repair scheduled bzzzzt.tic.tic.tic....PFAL....PFAL..... bleep bleep bleep bzzzzt.tic.tic.tic....PFAL....PFAL..... OLG detected analyzing target evaluation complete repair scheduled bzzzzt.tic.tic.tic....PFAL....PFAL..... bleep bleep bleep bzzzzt.tic.tic.tic....PFAL....PFAL..... statements of absolution verified statements of absolution published all else denied

Mike, I actually do think "its time" for something new to happen. Seems quite clear. Administrations. Whatever you wanna call them. The specifics are fuzzier than ever, but the big picture sure is moving along and changing fast. Truth seems, PFAL fails miserably to really address any of this. I'll play. So how can PFAL help now? Seems like an even newer revelation is in order. I mean, it has been about twenty years since the POP. We need another Paul to come along and usher us into the gathering together. You, perhaps? (tapping) Cynic, That sure was a clean cut. nice.

I was thinking Michael Pfeifer, myself. Maybe Uma Thurman. She cuts off your master's head with a sword to free you from him, and also to save you from the mob. (Funny thing is, now I'm thinking of story I wrote two years ago. It just kinda fits the pun, thus far.) Wanna read it? Its kinda juvenile. Needs serious revision before I sent it for publication again. btw - Do you eat spiders leg by leg then pop the belly in yer mouth, or do you just crunch the whole thing at once?

that's ok. I've shot off about a hundred posts on you. Maybe this thread will reach critical mass and explode soon. Would you go down in a blaze of glory, Mike? If faced with that choice?

Actually, a girl saves him by telling him he is not really a monster after all. Something like that.