sirguessalot

Hi GeorgeStGeorge. For the record, metaphysics and gnosticism are only two vast SUBjects in a much longer list of things I drew from in these posts. And it seems that most prophets (and sorcerers) of the Bible were adepts in those sorts of more-mystical/less-orthodox fields anyway. Once initiated into any school of "higher" knowledge, intent of the heart is what made all the difference between the two. A quantum leap for fundamentalists of most religions. IMO, Meta-physics is to physics what spirituallity is to religion--like a circle around a dot. Without the dot, the circle is just a mushy jellyfish. Without the circle, the dot is a whitewashed windswept bone. :)--> Thanks again, Pat, for stirring me with thoughts and questions like this, and letting me ramble in your "house." For me, such conversation really is like a cool glass of water in a desert. I can't help but want to pause awhile longer before I get back to what I was doing. This has been a delight.

Pat, We agree on more than it may seem at the moment. And I feel the urge to keep saying "but that's not what I meant to imply." Oh well, what can we do about that? :D--> I agree that names are important and useful and meaningful, and so have a certain degree of power. All I am saying is that names are not the end of the matter. They are not the most direct connection to spirit. But being a few steps away from the end is no small beans, either. Its like comparing 2 to 1 on a scale of 100. I disagree that the planes of spiritual characteristics or virtues are mere things. Characteristics and virtues are "concrete," in the sense that they are real and true. The vibrations and wavelengths which all creation exists upon are not mere concepts. The 7 spirits before the throne are not beings, though they have been named countless times, and there are beings which can represent their nature, though these beings are not the whole of the matter. Just like life as it happens, the Book of Rev uses the device of egos and identities and personality to express energies and realities that transcend but include lower ideas (such as utterable names). Spiritual understanding increases in a nesting, of sorts. Like the brooding spiritual dove of Genesis. Not a flat page we climb, or a ladder, really. But spheres within spheres within spheres. Nothing lower is destroyed, but utterly swallowed up whole by that which is above it. The shamanistic ways are full of truth, but only partially so. The rituals are like beautiful figures of speech that give shape and form to the formless, for our benefit, and even the benefit of the spirit world. Without such ritual (like naming and dance and craft and song), we might be lost in bliss/oblivion (like the man in the tombs). Its like comparing a shard of glass to the entire world of sand. Or a breath of air to the sky. Wet is wet whether its name is "lake" or a "cup of tea." But neither can be called the entire ocean. And the ocean has been called many things. What it is called does not change it. Although it is hard to order a cup of tea if such a name has not been given to it. :)--> Talk to ya later

Hi Cindy. The answer is vague. Spirit itself is vague, no? Like a vapor. Like flame. Like the wind. From what I read in the Bible. ;)--> Because concrete is for religions. Let us etch the truth in stone so we can own it forever. Kinda like, "If you do not eat of that tree of knowledge, you will die!" In the end, there is no urgency. Pay attention to the imagery that arises without disturbing it. See what inner light answers the outer sounds. You posed a good question. What is their impact today? I will try to be as vague and generic as possible. :D--> Example: 7 - realization 6 - vision 5 - evolution 4 - death 3 - control 2 - pleasure 1 - pain What drives a person/being? What drives a family/tribe/? What drives a community/clan/religion? What drives a nation/race? What drives the world/humanity? Ok, a bit more specific, though still vague, very limited examples off the top of my head. It is not my intention to hurt anyone or cover every scenario of a spirit. Love. Oneness. When a baby is born, it is innocently full of love for self, and so it cries at every pain and hunger, this is a good spirit. It results in genuine love. When an adult eats garbage to avoid pain, the good thing is at DISease, and is an evil spirit to them. Joy. Twoness. When a person can laugh at whatever they want in front of their friends, this is a good spirit. It results in genuine joy. When a person has to fake it to avoid abuse because "friends" are also faking it, the good thing is broken, and may culminate into a violent mob. Peace. Threeness. When a king can weigh two matters before him and make a fair judgement of the true worth of each, this is a good spirit and a just king. It results in genuine peace. When a king is stuck below in oneness (greed) and twoness (among a synagogue of phony smiles), the good scales are not working within him, and his judgement will not be fair, and no genuine peace will ever come of it. Ever. etc.... The discerning the manifestations of spirit trancends words, but includes them. It is on the spot, using labels and names according to form and function (light) rather than mere sound (representation). Ephemeral, at best. Like I said, "spirit," in the sense of the 7 spirits before the throne, are the 7 spirits which will be before the throne WITHIN your spiritual mind. The throne of God is within. To be "seated" inwardly on this throne is the function/reward of the 7th church. Only by sitting on this throne can you begin to learn to see the seven spirits moment by moment. This is discerning of spirits, regardless of what someone may want to call them in a syllabus. We first discern the inherent goodness of spirits, as intended. How else can we know what is wrong with them? We recognize the "signature" of them in people, in families, in animals, in plants, in rocks, in clouds, in moons and stars. Alpha to Omega is a range of ultimate inwardness to ultimate outwardness. :)--> Ok, gotta go get ready for a bday party. Thanks for stirring me.

mwah to you, E. :)--> (edited the rest because, after a quick review, I realize that I spoke too soon) :D-->

:)--> Thanks, Pat. And it looks like you got 2 ramblers out of the deal. :D--> (Hi, Roy!) The spectrum of "stuff" that all of creation is made of. The distinctions are not defined not by specific kinds of matter, per se, but by original intent. And this intent is expressed most directly by number, such as the order of events, which gives each part its unfolding purpose. The character of singularity is evident regardless of language, in both macrocosmic and microcosmic levels. Likewise, with duality and trinity and seasonality. Vibrations, mainly, on the most subtle levels of matter. You could say it that way, but like eveything, it gets deeper. Each day of creation unfolded around the previous day. Each day was formed upon the spirit of that day, not the other way around. We cannot have 2 without a 1 to double. We cannot have 3 without a 1 and a 2 (or a 1 to triple), etc... And its not that spirit resembles tree, but that tree resembles a "spirit." Example: the fifth revolution of creation resulted in ALL of creation manifesting fiveness. The wild card that relies upon 4, 3, 2, and 1. Diversification, evolution, law of the jungle. The "snake" and the "dragon" running wild in their imaginations, questioning every model and mode and function. Rational poking and testing, their energy derived from the cyclical framework, the truine control factors, the unavoidable duality of "yes" and "no," in the inescapable field of unity. Without these, this fiveness would not be, just as without sex and conception, the rapid development of a being in the womb could never be. The "fifth spirit" can be seen in all things, big and small. Wherever this intent is manifest (or NOT manifest - which is an evil condition that must be worked out, cleaned off, trimmed, etc...). All words are also names. And all words/names are disposable labels. They are interchangable. Ultimately, the "real" name a thing might have is beyond what we might call it with speech. But names are usable in spiritual healing, especially a name a person might use to describe their own perception of their DIS-ease (such as the fragmented legions that troubled the man in the tombs. believe it or not - he was trapped in a very high frequency of awareness - a head whose arms and legs were inundated with countless things).The names of the 7 spirits before the throne are beyond permenant labels. Though you can call them many things. Spoken and written words do serve to lead to the more direct language of light and form, but they are only an intermediary tool. Ultimately, you already know the "names" of the 7 spirits (which are not the same as the 7 angels or churches, though both of these things exist because of the 7 spirits (which date back to the genesis)). Yes. Your mind has an infinite number of pens and labels at your disposal. Without them, you would be lost. By attitude, I mean trajectory, or inherent momentum. For example, the first spirit binds all of creation together. Anything that binds anything together has this same attitude. Why would we love the devil? Good question. The simple answer is, because Jesus said so. :P--> He said to love our enemies. Or just Love, period. Even if it hurts. Even if it kills ya. If you can't bring yourself do this, but wish you could, you are on the path. If you don't think this is right, do what you think is right then. Our devil is an evil spirit. Because it is an illusion. When we hate our enemies, something is still broken inside. For in the end, "we" have no enemies. Only our flesh does. Likewise, our enemies are already broken for hating us. We already knew that part though. :D--> When we think of the devil as a being that is out there, and all his minions are co-conspirators in some plan to exact revenge for getting the boot from heaven, we are shifting an inward light to the outer darkness, so to speak. Thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven. If the majority of humanity is subject to this inner illusionary devil, then the devil becomes real, but only his works are manifest in the outer world. And the world is waiting for an outer liberator to come and squash him for them. If they cannot wait for their outward messiah any longer, well, they will send someone to kill their enemy with their bare hands if they have to. We cannot stop humanity from doing this. But if I dethrone him within myself, I am free to heal via the form of living words that freed me. In other words, there is no devil hiding out there, except in the sense that he is hiding in our enemies. And so this then makes the illusionary devil also quite real. Man makes it so, as he has from the beginning. --- And I agree, we will drown if we dive into the book of Rev. Because that book will make you lose your mind. ;)--> There are way more than 7 spirits, but there are also only 7 spirits. Because "spirit" is just a label. And spirit is just a medium. Like saying, there are only 7 colors, but there are really infinite colors, and infinite things that are mostly blue. And then the spirit of nothingness is another matter altogether (or, actually, not a matter at all). Peace :)-->

Yeah, kinda. I've read a lot of things, but I've never read Freud's work. And I suppose I could say that your version of the Devil sounds kinda like (fill in religion)'s version of the Devil. Not sure what that means, tho.

Johniam, Good question. But I would be asking what the first chapters are about, not chapter 20. Oh well, here goes... The devil is that illusionary enemy you must destroy. That is why the devil is always a liar. Yes, he is that enemy you must learn to love, even if it hurts you. But until then, your "devil" will continue to be the source of all your worldly ills. He will hunt you like a lion and eat you up from the inside. He knows your hot and cold buttons like no other, because he is within us, made by us, and served by us. There is a seat in the human soul where "he" sits and blocks the human mind. Blocks it from loving like we know we should. He needs to be unseated and replaced by another, no? Besides, God is Hell. A lake of fire. A consuming fire that is either a bath of light to the "fire-drinkers," or an angry and painful inferno to those who seek only to save themselves from it. :)-->

Yes, chakras is one name in one language given to the seven churches. Chakra means "wheel" in sanskrit, which is like a circular gathering together of energy, like a church or a house or a planet. But the chakras/churches are NOT the angels or the spirits or the trumpets, etc... These are more like the energies that flow through the house, the light that shines through the windows, the warmth of the hearth that fills the rooms. :)-->

ckeer- Not really. But only because I haven't looked. Names and naming is a vast subject tho. And I remember studying all the Biblical names for God, Christ, Satan etc... more closely while in TWI. Each reflecting a function or facet of the same. An enlightening approach. On a side note, the "manifestation of discerning of spirits" is to see correlations everywhere. Discerning of spirits (being 7th in order) is directly connected to seeing through and beyond names, anyway. It penetrates ego and identity by engulfing them, re-clothing them, and wrapping around them rather than destroying or doing away with them. With spiritual discernment, merely looking at a thing or array of things sparks a forest of correlations, no matter what you are looking at, because there are only 7 spirits before the throne of God anyway. Its all there ever has been, in all their infinite degrees and depths. Email me a link or a list of the O.T. redemptive names of God, if you have one. I would enjoy that. :)-->

Hi, Pat. The Book of Revelation happens to be what I am and have been writing on for some time now. So heerz my 2 cents. I will summarize as best I can Re: TWI's fixation on "devil spirits" and warning against angelic things. Fear and hate and ignorance on the part of the teachers, mainly. The more they feared, the bigger the object of their fear became. The devil became a massive and vast mountain of ideas that was hard to avoid. And somehow, God was still on the other side of it. But its like having a grain of sand in your eye. You can't see anything, and you cant think of else but that grains of sand as a mountain in your way. my point - devil spirit kindgom are made of grains of sand. The devil only looks like a mountain. A little water will wash them all away. Re: the good spirits/bad spirits. "Spirits" are a generic term. They are the character or attitudes of all the planes of all creation. They are not mere beings, like people. They are more like mediums, or wavelengths of light and sound. Although, all people are made of ALL 7 mediums. Why only 7? Because the 8th is just a higher octave of the first. Thus, on the seventh day, God rested. And so this character of 8 perpetuates infinity (the number is even shaped like infinity). So it can be said that all spirits are good. ALL of them. What makes it a devil spirit is when a good spirit is unhealthy or broken. Same spirit, its just a diseased leaf on the tree of life. To cast the devil out of it, is to make the spirit whole again. Salvation is when all 7 spirits of our being are made whole again. The Book of Revelation reveals the apparatus of Christ WITHIN. Which is really what you and me are made of. When John saw the man, he was given a spiritual view of the full spectrum of the divine human nature, alpha to omega. He was looking through a glass darkly, or at AN ENGIMA IN A MIRROR. THe Book of Revelation, like Ezekial's vision, is true divine self in a mirror. And so, all 7 lamps are centers of being within each of us, physically. And all 7 angelic planes of creation are attuned to these lamps. Like Hebrews says, angels are the flames of fire, ministering spirits. Even if a lamp is snuffed out (and becomes a spirit of darkness), the lamp is still good, and can be relit. The angel is the flame on the wick. Each lamp is described to have a unique gifted purpose and a unique lesson to learn to become fulfilled. And each also has a sign of its smoking, or DIS-ease. The throneroom of God is also within. Where we meet the Divine All-in-All is within. But it is dark inside. We need all the lights turned on. The last reward of the seventh lamp is a seat in that throneroom. And the next thing we see is the throneroom itself. Notice how the lamb has seven eyes. The lamb is within, just as Christ is within. It needs the eyes to open the seals. The flame of the candle melts the wax. The seals are what prevents us from understanding higher things. Much like a mucus plug prevents the water from breaking. They represent 7 obstacles we must overcome. Then the trumpets are blown when we actively use the spirit. And the bowls of wrath spill (or not) as we learn to balance our blowing. All the wraths and wonders and horrible things of the book of revelation represent, not merely events in the world, but the way we perceive them. Also, biological changes that take place as our consciousness attunes. In the end, when we get the hang of all the bowls and trumpets, only then can we make music. Its like learning seven notes on a flute of our inner spirit. What good is it if you don't move on to creating a song with them. This is speaking in tongues of angels. Which is why that manifestation is listed 8th. We "sing" and radiate with our full spectrum of being. In my research (ack, I hate that word), I have seen a correlation between the days of Genesis, the manifestations, the fruit, and all the wonderful detail of the book of revelation. At this point, it would take me days to explain it. Which is why I am writing a book about it instead. And summarizing here. There are a lot of great commentaries on the book, most of which apply it to world events. And it does apply to the world outside, as well. But that is because this ascended Jesus dude was smart. He wove a multi-layered tapestry of divine understanding. As it is above (within), so it is below (without). But the strictly outer view of the book of revelation is secondary. Empty of the primary inner realities expressed. Christ is where? Well, this book reveals him where he is, not where he is looked for. It is the only book of the bible hand delivered by the ascended Jesus himself. Which would make it more important than the epistles (which all point to it - btw) Perhaps this is why carnal Christianity (like VP's) is frightened by it. The darkness of a dogmatic cave is preferred to Christ's bright light. Intellectual inward critical spiritual self analysis is terrifying. Revelation of the 7 spirits and how they work would be a damning indictment of the spiritual state of most current Bible-holders, if it was not for the grace and love which creation is grounded in. All is rendered naked by the Rev's 7-layered lense. Especially the reader. I hope it helps. And feel free to share what you have found (private or not).

Def, you crack me up. Perhaps you should post on every thread but this one to make it go away again. :D--> Besides, it is a message. This is a message board. I only called it a postcard for funzies. Maybe you can tell me what you would like me to chop out of my letter to make it shorter. :P--> Square Peg, I hear ya. Be gentle with the boomers. It is a very sensitive time in life. When bitterness sets in, towards self, mostly. Though it comes out in other ways. And as much as I see the boomer generation as having ignorantly screwed a lot of things up for my generation, and reaping what they sow as they age (poorly too, I might add), I believe the boomers hold the keys to the future for us. The early bitterness of my generation may blind my generation to this fact. On a drier note, re: gentleness. It is the 5th order of spiritual fruit (which we eat), and miracles are the 5th order of spiritual manifestation. Miracles are literally massaged into being. Sudden miraculous changes are brought about by easing force onto the right pressure point. Miracles come about by feeling around with your eyes closed until you find the tiny hardness that blocks the stream of energy. Once that cornerstone of hardness is eased gently out of the way, the dam breaks, and what happens next is a miracle of the body, heart and mind. Its like knowing exactly what pebble to move to make the mountain dissolve and fall into the sea. --- Ok. Looks like no one wants to play any new games. :D--> Guess I'll see ya next time. :)-->

Hello, all. Todd here, taking a much-needed break from writing and travelling, Thought I’d compose a postcard. I hope you see this as irreverent & playful as I intended. Just saying “Hello again. How are you? I am fine. Goodbye.” seems unworthy of y’all. I lurk a bit & think about you guys a lot. Always trying not to post so I can get other things done. ;)--> Sometimes life experiences like GSC & TWI remind me of the Hotel California. We can check out any time we like, but we can never leave. I enjoy observing the subtle shifts & ripples in conversation that happen here. & how sometimes certain moods & splashes seem to overcome the place all at once. Its like watching how changing light causes all the sparkles to dance & shimmer even more. btw – I know that sparkles & ripples are merely the surface of the deeper water y’all really are. It looks like most of us have come to expect the circular discussions here, almost as if there is no other choice. We become comfortable with our favorite whirpools & eddies of conversation. I guess its why we hang out at the same caf?for its specialties on the menu. We stab it with our steely knives, but we just can’t kill the beast. ;)--> So, we might as well be as naked-souled as we can while we’re “stuck” here, right? & so here is my stabbing steely knife from afar, aiming at that same ole’ beast. & as most of you know, brief & to the point is not a thing I am good at. Read slow? But I will try my best (its not like your sitting there waiting for me to finish). :)--> --- “God” and “spirit” and their related words like “spirituallity” and “heaven” and “devil” are words I have come to loathe and love. And I’m sure it’s the same for a lot of us here. After all, we all perceive ourselves to have been burned by them, to some degree. Whether the brand stung us in the a$$ or in the heart, our mutual Wierwillian scar is the same shape. Nonetheless, words like these are obviously very important to us. They push our buttons and stir feelings and desires that even consume our actions at times. Big deal. Such is life. I have come to understand spirituallity as a science, more than anything, as opposed to mere dogmatic puppet-show cross-your-fingers religion. "True spirituallity" is an older science than what we call science today (but includes it, of course, like a baby brother). Modern science’s weaknesses (and strengths) are in its partial and incomplete methods. Reminds me of a polywog before it becomes a frog. But at least its no longer an unhatched egg (limited to worshipping the glow of the sun through the skin of its shell). Spirituallity, in the end, it seems, is really based on mostly physical realities. Yes, astroLOGY, visions, dreams, angels and such--mostly physical phenom. And all that weird stuff in the Bible, as well as all that long laundry list of un-Biblical taboos we inherited from our patriarchal/agrarian views of yore. We just call them supernatural because the nature of them is beyond our understanding. Against our will even, we will always remain embodiments of “God,” but our awareness may still be trapped in the outside world. Without an X-ray or a medical book or a surgeon’s knife, we may think there is no way to rationally see the depths of our truest humanity. I am not just talking about psychotherapy or some other science (as mucho important as these are), I am talking "old school." The “entering into that closet.” Returning to Eden. Entering the eye of the needle. Putting on the mind of Christ. Being born again. Being caught away to heaven. Yada yada yada. Figures of speech can lead us farther than literal truth. That is, until we get there and realize that the figures of speech are literal truth. But first, for each of us, Babylon must fall. Paul’s mystery is a solvable one, and its NOT a one-liner. ;)--> --- I probably seem to hint and beat around the bush about what I am trying to say, but that is because this forum is only a thin surface of our souls. A narrow slice of the human interface. And I am not that damn sure how to say things anyway, when it comes to “religious stuff” (which is why it takes so long to carve and polish a book on the subject, I guess). I would rather take my time and go conversational fishing and see what points draw a bite and then follow them, rather than, like a fool, try and empty the whole lake. But to try and express my sincerity, I guess, I’ll say this. I believe there are "spiritual" methods, levels, stages, proofs, indicators, realities, experiences, disciplines, etc… which are so freakin “available” (to use another word-shaped scar), that they're available to a naked couple in the woods under the stars. No books or buildings or groups required. ;)--> But the path is through experience and understanding, which we will never see much of if we hoard and protect our precious beliefs in a cave/egg. We cannot say, “I have not seen it for myself, so it is not true,” if we have never even honestly looked. Have you ever read about the Koran without a chip on your shoulder? We cannot truly believe or disbelieve what we do not understand, anyway. We may dislike the words “magic” and “myth," but we cling to basically “magical” and mythical” ideas if we still think the totallity of “Godness” is somehow supposed to be beyond our puny comprehension. If we think the totallity of “Godness” is so big it is outside the realm of mundane experience. Indeed, we will remain broken, and trapped in the life of a “miserable sinner,” waiting, waiting, waiting in outer darkness. If we still hate our enemies. If we still hate “the devil.” If we fear some most common things like pain (moreso than death, it seems). If scriptural racism binds our reading habits. If long foreign words and names limit our will to search out and find wisdom, we have not yet found that narrow path that we read about in the Bible. We find a comfy whitewashed sepulchre. Now, I don’t write this solely to kick or punch, or look down on anyone. I try to know who and where I am not. But my life is driven by complaints, it seems. Its like smoke in my eyes. Where there is smoke, there is fire. When the wick is too weighty, it smokes. When the flame goes out, the wick smokes. Which is why God loves the smell of smoke, I guess. The complaint is a prayer to heaven from a ministering angel, or a smoldering tongue of fire. Smoke never lies. ;)--> My life is surrounded by complaining boomers, mainly. Always has been. I have a huge generation of them over my head. And I work in retail, selling collectible status-symbol Christian art to patriotic Christian American boomers with lots of money. 90% of my employers and fellow employees are over 50. I live in a city of many inlaw uncles and aunts. And here, where I cut my teeth on trying to leave our first Hotel California, most of you are boomers. And so, there are hundreds of such voices I hear in my life, and behind the sounds of the words, there is a form of smoke. The most common denominators that people seem to lack shows mostly in their eyes, and in their buying habits and styles, in the way they speak to me and each other. They are either fed up with the idea of spirituallity, or call something spiritual that is not, really. And not only when they complain and b1tch and p1ss and moan, do I see smoke, but also in those open-souled moments, where they reveal the treasures of their hearts. These moments are rare, and I try to seek them like a child on an easter-egg hunt, but when stalking colored eggs through the grass, its hard to avoid the turds, ya know what I mean? --- Now, where the heck did I leave that point? Oh, yeah. Spirituallity and related stuff we like to argue about, complain about, and become enemies over. The complaints directly related to physical things, such as money (or lack thereof), health (or lack thereof), time (or lack thereof), meaning (or lack thereof). Even the feeling of love. And so, of all the souvenirs I have seen, I send this, in hopes of trimming your wicks: Put your Bibles down for awhile. All your prophets are dead. If you still cling to them, you have not yet graduated from the laws of letters and paper and dead wood pages. If you are blinded and bound by its crusty canon, you have not yet come out of a scriptural cave (which is fine, the process of birth involves a cave too, right?). Put your money where your mouth is. If the devil still haunts your world, you have not yet overcome him and found the love of God. If you cannot see the light from the east*, you cannot see eastward to Eden or the sunrise or Christ. A hot hellish flaming sword that turns every way keeps you from returning home. If your faith is so precious it justifies all kinds of violence and killing or condemnation or rage or beastial self-preservation, you might want to take it out and smash it to pieces again and again til you find pure gold. If the voice of God is found nowhere outside of the Bible’s pages, you might want to look at the brick in your hand and use it for the cornerstone it was meant to be, rather than setting it down and refusing to build anything on it. Or worse yet, stoning harlots and sinners and publicans with it. *By light of the east, I am talking about where "the sun" always rises, all the ancient sciences and concepts of things like meditation, yoga, reincarnation, Taoism, Hinduism, enlightenment, astrology, evolution, mysticism, Abraham, kabbalah, tantra, Melchizadek, 3 wise men, yada yada. And not the pop stuff either, which has invaded the west (though that seems ok too). Metaphysics and new age have a bad stigma attached, because, well, they are just words, and everything good has its sycophants. When it comes to the divine mind, east meets west just fine. Jesus said so himself, right? --- Now, if you loathe the Bible or spirituallity because of all those who have “taught” you what it says and then their methods broke into pieces, you might want to pick it up again (if you want, or if you can - there are many other good books, too). But if you do, pick it up with new eyes. Less serious or urgent than ever before. We can stop looking for accuracy. Look for the language of light and form and color in scripture, and how they make connections to sciences both ancient and modern. I just hate to see a good book get a bad rap for no reason. In the end, all scripture is a joke, anyway. But we treasure good witty jokes as well, no? Strict semantic laws suppress higher thought processes. But the ephemeral is not disturbed by such laws, just as air is never harmed by a sword. For the mind to become breakable and bendable like the wind or the waves (without fear or hatred or pain or change) is a gift and a blessing. We can laugh at mountains and fortresses and locks and keys and lions' teeth. This is how scripture can be read. It does not have to be so damn important or right. Forget what the mainstream Bible fans keep saying about their God (at least take it with a grain of salt). Forget the specific names used for all the important people in it. The Bible is about generic things like peace between neighbors of all faiths, methods of happiness in spite of our pain and stupidity, sweet and important dreams and visions, physical disciplines that cause true love to form within your heart, the experience of boundless and nutritious practical wisdom and liberation from mortallity and the source of our complaints. I know. I know. It sounds like the very same **** every huckster like VP says, but I say it now without “the VPishness” or his selfish and selfishness generating meanings. Besides, it is already yours, alone, inherent, in the dark. It always has been. I can neither sell it or give it away. All I can ever honestly do is point at it. And the best way to point someone to their divine form, is with a mirror and a light (thought a prism). The Bible (and other scriptures of sacred language) is full of solvable riddles and mysteries and beautiful demonstrations of the follies of man’s most basest desires (such as the infamous O.T. “puppet show” about some of the worst laws and things you can possibly impose on each other and ourselves. ;)--> ). But its not the only thing written by the hand of God. Or the only scriptural demonstration of folly. The world and history is full of mountains of enlightening scripture. Just try not to look solely at the modern religions who hold them hostage. There are many ways Christ comes as a thief in the night. Sneaky as a snake in a tree, he is. I've read many eastern, southern, northern and western scriptures lately that say the same thing as Peter, Jesus, Paul, etc... Sometimes even better. Big deal. "God" never shuts up anyway. Or stops shining. Never has. The divine mind isn't suposed to be picky, right? --- Finally, for those who are sick of all the details of methods and practices and levels and stages of growth and such, and that veritable mountain of information and fat claims and spiritual commercials and soundbites (like my own post ;)-->), I am sorry. I don’t blame you. But I do bring you good news. The best news of all, it seems. My favorite part. The Way -->, The path to happiness -->, The Stairway to Heaven -->, Yada yada yada... ...Is within you, right where you are at, right now. Yeah, it sounds trite and/or generic. That's because words alone are empty (especially at this really globally muddy point of human/english history). What I am saying is, YOU are the apparatus. You youself ARE the stairway to heaven. Jacob's ladder in within you. You can climb it, naked, alone, and in the dark. And it is also most scientifically and experientially provable. Demonstrable. Beyond religion. Beyond cold-hard science. When certain wonderful things begin happen within you, its kinda hard to doubt or ignore. This is why its called a "witness" (to use yet another harloted mystery term). We can testify of an actual demonstrable experience we initiated. The physical human form itself is made in the form of the “divine” (the true). Like Leonardo's Vitruvian Man. Evolution climbs and is always wiser. And has brought us “here” perfectly. Our very DNA is wise as a serpent. Its the storybook that keeps on learning. The firmament between heaven and earth is not “out there,” but the surface of our own skin. The little door to heaven is within. Which is why Jesus called it "small." The "stairs" are already just there. Not because someone made them up and gave them names, but because many loving masters have counted them and had to call them something. And regardless of whether one uses celcius or fahrenheit, the length is the same. The apparatus of Christ is not something you have to have installed by the “holy spirit.” The new birth is a birth of understanding of what we have always been, not some glowing ectoplasmic injection from on high. Understanding it comes by experience, not faith. And these transformations/experience happens WITHIN your body-mind. Unmistakable at times. Thunder, lightning, earthquakes...within. The actual mediums of spiritual enlightenment is stupid little things like light, sound, air, water, fire, stone, wood and electricity. Nothing more, nothing less. After all, all that you think and feel in your heart and head is made of these same basic things. No? What are your thoughts made of then? Magic? But there’s a few bummers in this old generic spirituallity. Mortal pain does not go away. It just becomes bearable. Wealth does not poor in like rain. It is redefined by our happiness. But health? Absolutely. Miracles? Wonders? No doubt in my mind. Sacrifice? No longer begrudgingly, but with joy and tears, like we all wish we could. And true Love? Most of all. Love for self and all living beings. Beyond what we have often come to expect of ourselves. We can be done with simply explaining and trying to translate spirituallity and/or God. Be done chasing higher things and being chased by them. Christianity has it backwards, it seems. The return of Christ is a spiritual reality. The new birth is a physical one. After all, even light itself is just a thing to behold. A thing that is. Even true love is a real and tangible thing that moves atoms. --- Ok, I am going to try to be done with this thread and the poetry of it. And you should know me by now. I have probably repeated myself a few times, and said some things flat out wrong or stupid. Slap me upside the head with them, if you like. I’ll try to laugh, clarify, whatever. Complain. Cuss me out. Call me a fool or a heretic. I can elaborate on any of it. But its not like I’m gonna make this thing hundreds of pages long. Tho I do plan on hanging out a few days, talking about spirituallity if there are any takers. See who freaks out. See who falls asleep. See who smiles. Its all good. Bottom line (if there is such a thing), is seek the foundation OF yourself, FOR yourself, until "self" is consumed and beautified, and no longer weighs on you as much as it used to. Christ (the divine form) is already within you, right? It IS you. Always has been. A wind giant. And a bumblebee star. The entire universe was modelled after what you already are. Here are some priceless practical things I have found and practiced that are too damn simple to seem important, which is where God likes to hide all his secrets, it seems. ;)--> - To feel and see and know God requires practicing greater and greater periods of isolation and stillness and silence (yes, meditation, mainly – just about any school of it) The still small voice cannot be heard through all the usual chatter of our troubled minds. So learn to shut up your troubled mind, even if it takes hours of sitting there). Practicing things like inner silence can be like a torture chamber, but it pays. I can't say this enough. Meditative practices are the ground that spirituallity grows in, in every scripture and spiritual tradition in the world. - Fall in love with your breath and learn how to breath with your entire body-mind. Yogic types of breathwork is the same Holy Breath Jesus taught his students. Oxygen is an inward tool for many many wonderful things. - Think of food as medicine/poison. Your ability to think and understand is affected by the food you eat. Every cell is replaced by what you eat, and believe it or not, your mind reaches from your skull to the tip of your spine. A healthy body is a healthy mind. - There are thousands of genuine spiritual teachers out there today who can help. Visit, but do not stay. There is a smorgasboard of spiritual disciplines and methods outside of the religion that fathered us. If we can only get over the taboos and “wierdness” of it. Our edge is defined by what is too weird, it seems. Take classes. Read books. Push your own personal spiritual comfy zone. - Whatever inward disciplines you find, practice, practice, practice, like you are learning the guitar that you are. The sooner you get sounding like crap out of the way, the better. - And put your favorite numbers for spirituallity down awhile. Because all of them are good. For we all exist in oneness. We are one, whether we like it or not. Within and without. And we are all dual. There is a line that splits us in half. But we can get stuck on mere duality. And we are all truine, like a mother child father. But we can get stuck on any kind of trinity. And we are all subject to gear after gear after gear of seasonal fourness and cycles. But we can be stuck in it. And we all have a fiveness that evolved into a thumb. But we can worship the image of the beast. And we all have a sixness, or sextuallity, where two triune beings intertwine. But we can get stuck in it. And we all have a seveness, like a caduceus, or a brass serpent lifted up to heal. But we can even get stuck in this. And when we reach the end of our spectrum of being, we simply find ourselves on another octave. Eightness is a bigger oneness all over again, in both color and sound. A wonderful redundancy factor. Like how the 9-month process of gestation and birth of our body is repeated with the conception, gestation and birth of our human soul (via understanding). But our manifold natures, our Christ natures, our deepest natures, continues to evolve and diversify from octave to octave, beyond all numbering, but the spectrum of "we" is always simple enough count ourselves out, Alpha to Omega, on our own fingers of we have to. Most of all let love be your compass. It is the most reliable needle you have. You can feel when it is off the mark. Besides, all paper maps have dragons on the edges where knowledge stops. So polish your compass and use it to find your way home. NOT somewhere new. With love, Todd. (In case anyone is interested, I just posted more on these subjects on a thread by Pat S. in the "About the Way" forum entitled "Good Spirits and Bad Spirits).

Hi all. Just a quick hello to say a proper goodbye, I suppose. My path is taking me far and wide. And posting well takes a lot of time from other projects. A quick thanks to all for participating on this thread. This place (of peoples) has been wonderful. The God is the weirdest freakin thing! :P--> ;)--> (And I hope a bunch of y'all learn to get out more) Roy, You just keep asking, my friend. The questions lead you like a lamp of wisdom. Answers are just dust under yer feet. And let all the scriptures of the world be yer map, but keep letting Love be yer compass. It'll take you farther, any day. Beyond any devil. Any maps. Or any gaggle of Gods. Def, you crack me up. Not sure what else to say to you. Peace. Good luck. Kit, It was really good to see ya. Yeah. Fruit as "evidence in court" seems a common hang up in earthly Bibledum. But all good food is medicine. Like a tree of life. Leaves for healing. Starting with Love. Always. Which seed may become the root of wisdom. Too Gray, Hey! I've finally been able to get my feet on the road a lot more lately. (Big smiles - and you know why.) Thanks a ton for hanging out with me here. Dirty12, Thanks for the mouth-to-mouth attempt on this thread. I'm glad yer memory was stirred. Ginger, Yes, even if.... Even if. :)--> Again, thanks all. JFreaky, Krys, Square Peg, Danny, E, and anyone I might have missed. My email is open again. I hope to keep in touch with all the connections I've made here. Namaste, Todd

Thanx, Kit! Thanx, everyone. Nice pic, E. :)--> Funny, Mike. :D--> I will be 33 years old on March 25th. When I blow out my candles this year, I'm gonna wish for more time to hang out at the GSC. ;)--> I love this place. b4 I go... A lot of things are changing right now. And change hurts. So be gentle. You guys take care of each other. By candlelight and twilight, Todd

I'm not sure what to think about all this, Pawtucket. But I figured I ought think about it and chime in, seein as how I seem to have successfully started a quiet little table down there. So heer goes... The doctrinal forum is my favorite street corner to hang out on. But not because that is where doctrine is discussed. Doctrine has always permeated the upper threads of this board. There’s really little difference between what goes on down there and what goes on up here, anyway, IMO. But I prefer to start threads there because it IS a back alley. And not a private topic. Its where the kids can cause trouble without being seen by the adults. :P--> :D--> Last thing I want is a bunch of know-it-all tourists doing their usual drive-by “appreciations.” I prefer the fringes...the hem. I like to muse with musers where the musers take the time to muse, But if I feel like brawling with the brawlers, I will go where the brawlers like to brawl. Out in the open. Cuz bulls love to talk their talk and fight where the whole crowd can see. Like others have said, maybe some sort of “pulpit” forum up towards the top would help all our messianic and prophetic urges. Be it a street corner or one of those gilded boxie-thingys priests sermonize from. “I got something to say that I think God told me to say, so here it is!” Anything posted there would be accepted as such. Where we post says about as much about what we post, anyway, it seems. And we seem to need a place in the open to draw each other’s blood and cast stones and spit loogies about whose dad is gonna whoop whose dad’s ***, and whose brother is gonna whoop whose brother’s ***. ;)--> But also a place for those who like to publish “silly” little messages of peace, regardless if anyone responds. Both would fit fine in a well-defined pulpit-like place. ... But Paw, if you do move the “doctrinal” upward, will you consider keeping another little forum for the fringe of the robe? If at all possible, somewhere near the feet? After all, who couldn’t use a quiet place for a good foot massage after all our long treks? ;)--> Peace, Todd btw – thanks for all you do, and have done here. Everything we do is often both more and less than we ever realize, IMO. Sometimes its just hard to see it from Middle Earth. I don’t know you, but I hope you see it. :)-->

Hi, all. Ironic. I’ve found myself writing this as Enigma plays into the headphones. “Back to Rivers of Belief” is the song playing now. Not sure what I want to write tonight. The subject of tongues, in the sense as I have chosen to interpret it, is a vast one. So many birds in its branches. So I just comb the posts, feeling for a spot to land. And I am feeling a little feisty tonight. ;)--> Hi, Krysilis. Nothing like finding a wonderful place you forgot that you had forgotten, eh? Like from a time before we were born. Being naked in Eden again, but moreso than the first time. In what seems like wide open space is just a womb against our skin. Heart and lungs above our head, just as it is in our own chest. Pumping air and water and blood. Like a baptism. Blessed are they who see their birth before it comes. Like babes, we leap in the womb. The last enemy begins to be destroyed before we ever meet it. Death itself begins to be transformed before the eyes of our understanding. Heck, we might just even escape the pain of its tribulation. :)--> I like how Too Gray said “I like that it has become a thread of trying to say what we want to say… without explaining ourselves.” Cuz there are times when there is little hope of explaining yourself anyway. Little hope of proving anything via words on a e-forum. And that tree of life just won’t sit still long enough to become something we could call accurate, anyway. Yet it is still eternal. Grows and grows. Diversifies even as we do. Like dragons in the wilderness, sometimes. And there are so many things about it all that will never change. And nothing ever goes away. Nothing. Like us, it all justs moves. And the pain of this will eventually pass. All of it. Sometimes its better to be dumb for a short while than blind for a lifetime. Our tongues of men being limited to psalms and hymns and spiritual songs. :)--> Ok, heer goes…. There is nothing that is not first spiritual and from God. Everything has a spirit, that has a force or an intention or a purpose. Spirit being both the underlying reason and result of what simply is. “The spirit of a thing” means just like it sounds. Even my car has a spirit to it. No big deal. A spirit originally given it by its maker. I call it "Lazarus the Blue Cockroach." :D--> The spiritual and supernatural is just natural before it becomes understood in a natural sense. All of creation exists on seven planes. Together which, forms the archangel, Lucifer. Which IS the form of God. Wisdom and knowledge. Light and sound. Beginning with that single sonic note that vibrates constantly (like a father). The 7 spirits of God unfold before the throne. Which is also the form of a human being. The entire created universe is shaped like a human being. And like a dove in an egg in a nest. And like a mother with an unborn child. The Father God is where all things begin. A pure point of white hot reality. No ifs, ands or butts. That is love. Everpresent. But love is the beginning of all things. And dare I say…just the beginning. But I do dare. Tis a pity that this might bother some. Those who might say true love comes after all the “real” hard work is done. Like blaming and attacking and proving and possessing things we think we somehow possess, but we don’t. We are possessed by that which we think we possess. So choose your possessions wisely. We serve them whether we like it or not. These 7 planes are the spirits of the divine. They are the angels which express God. The wisdom unfolds and wraps around us like a cloak. Diverse. Expansive. Cooperative. Adaptive. Which is part of why the new Jerusalem is a she. Descends from heaven above. But from our beginning, the microcosmic apparatus of “we” also consists of 7 angels. No more…no less. But all wound up inside like a point, at first. Like a little naked snake (more subtle than any beast of the field). Like a strand of DNA waiting to divide again. Waiting to uncoil and learn to “speak” on each plane. Like speaking in tongues of angels. There are specific genos of tongues. Genus. After its kind, and all that. Each one doing that thing each of our divine parts were meant to do. On each plane…in action, thought, intent, speech, whatever… It gets so vast and diverse, the rules and 3D laws tend to crumble. We are delivered from carnal laws. Because Love is a better compass than any book. :)--> An evil spirit is NOT an enemy. It is NOT a secret agent of an evil conspiracy sent to ruin our lives. It IS a disharmony. A weakness. A knot. A muddy spot. A loose snake in the garden where it simply does not belong. Though of course we may hate it. Because all knots and tangles suck while we have them. But we can learn to laugh at small things. (once we understand how small they truly are). But to think a knot has no reason for being there, and so it must simply be cut off, is to cut your own hair. To lose wisdom. To trim the corner of your beard. To try to painfully yank it out often just causes more knots. To cast out the evil (and I just cringe at the way those words sound), is to heal a living thing without damaging it (if you can – and we can – gentleness is a fruit of the spirit – so eat it – though it helps if you already have the patience). :)--> Pergamos is the “worst” rung to stop on and look down. It is the tip of the pyramid just before the center. The moon still looks small and insignificant from here. And a fool makes it this far and turns and looks down at “his” strictly 3d world That is why it is the seat of Satan. When your mind stops and sits here, Satan rules. Not from some secret spiritual underground base, somewhere out there. But Satan rules from within, in a natural stage of our consciousness. Where mere threeness is supreme (be it a trinity or a trio of principle or methodology). Science. Logic. Accuracy. Control. And the synagogue of Smyrna serves below Pergamos. And poor Ephesus is just a baby at both of their feet. “Get thee behind me, Satan,” is to advance beyond this little chair of Pergamos. Or to challenge one (like Peter) to put down his sword and stop trying to save his "life" by taking that of another. Its not that “aha! we can cuss people out and call them names if we feel “spiritually justified to do so.” It would be better to die, seems the bigger lesson to me. Especially if death has already been overcome. The pain of it is all that has to be dealt with now. The reality of it is old news. Eternal life is realized (not merely "obtained" or "won" – because our eternal life already existed before we ever realized it – which is why it is called “eternal”). In this regard, the business and politics of what we call the USA is a good example of that same ole whirlpool under an ocean of Satanic thought (especially where popular Christianity moves it). It just jumped the Atlantic a short while ago. “Put the horse to work. Pay em just enough to eat for a day.” “Pain of paying your dues and competition is the best motivator.” “Eat eat eat eat. And poop poop poop poop.” Yada yada yada... And it doesn’t matter if the **** piles up and chokes us to death. (Which is when Ephesus is knocked out of place). But Satan IS to be transformed into an angel of light. Not as some deception (though Satan is a paranoid one). But as a reality. We do not want to lose our 3rd star. Our 3rd lamp. We simply want to continue beyond death, bringing it with us like a prodigal son. We want it to serve in its rightful place under heaven. Logic and law and science is a spiritual underling. Because it cannot get around that Pale Horse. So we just die, just like this Pergamos feared all along. (though there is always hope beyond this too). But Thyatira fulfills Pergamos if he’ll let it be so. Thyatira is where the male (lower 3) and female (higher 3) meet. We move from competition to cooperation with Christ (via union/yoga…whatever). The enmity is removed. We control mostly nothing at all. Our fate must be realized before it can be escaped. Paul told the Ephesians that we wrestle “against the prince of the power of the air.” Because the carnal mind naturally resists the coming of Christ (who IS the prince of the power of the air – even as the heart and lungs are). In ignorance, we might even consider it wickedness from high places. But Paul was rooting for the Ephesians to learn this. It is ok to resist the prince in this way. This is a natural stage of life. Like a drop in the bucket. All babes resist entering the world of air, too. That is why Mom has to force them out. Cuz they don’t wanna come on their own. And the nursemaid may have to help, too. :)--> This reminds of the spiritual wrestling match of Jacob. Trying to balance on the pinnacle of the temple. He wrestled with a mirror image of himself (a less tangible and distorted version of himself). And that this would be an intense mental struggle makes sense to me. “Oh my God! I am less than half way there, and all along I thought I had already arrived at the peak of perfection.”). And he saw angels climing up and down a ladder. Angels like expressions like thoughts contemplating those rungs between heaven and earth. And they revealed his shadow self via a mirror. What he thought was his enemy. :)--> Ok, twas just a few things before I go to bed, I guess. Sorry if the language is too enigmatic for some. But can ya imagine if I tried to explain all that in detail? In “plain English,” whatever the heck that means anymore? I would be here for a month or more. But why, if you can fill in your own gaps anyway you see fit? That is the fun part, anyway - reaching for the rungs on your own. So I'll ask: should I keep my interpretations of tongues more vague? Have I ruined anything for anyone? Wouldn't want to take too much of the fun away. ;)--> [This message was edited by sirguessalot on March 11, 2004 at 12:16.]

:)--> From first Corinthians 13... "through" = dia - by way of "glass" = esoptron - mirror (gaze into) "darkly" = en einigma - in a riddle For NOW, we "see" by way of a riddle in a mirror. Paul knew, because he was blinded by that mirror for awhile. But we can get to a point where we won't need a book anymore. We can close our Bibles once and for all. Because we are literally living epistles, waiting for all the seals to be broken. No more figures of speech. (and we can begin to discern those same spirits in other mirrors...like friends, strangers and especially our enemies - they reveal more pressing things about us than anyone else in our lives) :)--> I hope to see yall in a few days. [This message was edited by sirguessalot on March 05, 2004 at 1:02.]

that's right, the Fonz was jewish, too, wasn't he? lol! :D--> idunno, sometimes he looks like a lion sometimes he looks like a lamb sometimes he looks like a king sometimes he looks like a thief sometimes he looks like a sweet old lady sometimes he looks like a teenage drug addict sometimes he looks like a vine on a wall sometimes he looks like a fiery flying serpent sometimes he looks like Gandalf the Wizard sometimes he looks like Willie Wonka sometimes he looks like Bob Marley sometimes he looks like a griffon he is known to be somewhat of a trickster. he has a habit of changing his appearance. and God is known to hide among the weak. so, ya just never know. your journaling sounds rewarding. just let it flow like you'll never read it again. write from your heart like blowing smoke on the wind. :)--> [This message was edited by sirguessalot on March 04, 2004 at 2:15.]

Yes, the big book too! Living epistles, all of us. Open and closed. Frequent fliers see this. The world is full of mirrors. And what we do to a stranger or an enemy, we do to Christ, and so also ourselves. :)--> :)--> :)--> Thinking of your children... Lets let only children vote for the next president of the USA. But only after they get to grill the suitors til their hearts are satisifed. "But why? And why? And why?..." :D--> Makes me want to watch the movie, "Seven Years in Tibet," again.

Square Peg, Mull them over. Live life. The months and years are like ticks on a clock. We get what we can reach today. Even as we learn to climb. Heerz a few more thoughts... Diet helps/hinders our thinking alot. Eating what Jesus ate. Its a big part of getting "washed in the blood of the lamb." As does learning how to breath air in and out of the lower 3 churches (not to mention the "upper rooms"). Because the clarity of our thoughts are hindered by many biological conditions. Thoughts are made of things like electricity and chemistry, an interplay of fire, wind, water and minerals. Meditation helps a lot too. Maintaining an equilibrium of thought. Learning the divine wisdom found only in silence. stillness. darkness. Entering that closet without fear. We can build endurance in this. Imagery helps focus our meditation. The object of our meditations. Wisdom is a shape, a concept, a paradigm, not just letters on a page or words behind our head. We SEE wisdom - what we think we understand, thus far. Once Ephesus is conceived, he is no longer riding a white horse to conquer something "over there." He learns discipline, and our logos of wisdom manifests and grows within. Like a tree of life. The reward of Ephesus when he overcomes the instincts of the first horse. Which is also the face of the lion. Ephesus needs to learn how to NEED LESS. But we should always remember our soul's first love. Our first love of the flesh is our basic needs. And our soul needs to understand. But it takes time to learn the potent questions to ask. They are more important than any answers. The manifestation of word of wisdom is our oneness. It is NOT just some piece of magical information we get when we're in a pinch. No cookie jar here, baby! That cookie jar imagery came from a beggar and a thief...poor dope. And once we are fully born again, our word of wisdom is the same basic shape as everyone else who is born. But unique, of course. Our path to spiritual wisdom ends up showing us the same form as everyone else who has seen it. This is the witness of the spirit. How we can recognize the spirit regardless of race, language, or time. Example - The word for "tree" may change a thousand times. But a picture of a tree is recognizable universally. Same with the wisdom of God. A picture is worth a thousand words. It is the shape of the mind Christ, who is called The Wisdom of God. Which thoughts, like light, exists and interreacts in crystalline form. Crystal consciousness is a big part of the book: The Revelation of Christ. It reveals a lot about the logos of wisdom in this sense. Crystalline thrones. Rainbows. Prismatic understanding. Oneness to twoness to threeness, and so on. And this wisdom is preserved from previous seasons like hair of snow. At first, I imagine its like seeing firelight through an icicle. From eyes like a flame of fire (Book of Rev, chapter one). ;)--> As our word of wisdom grows and takes shape, We can meditate upon it. Explore it. Flesh it out. Ask questions. Learn the better questions to ask. Ever reaching towards "sevenness" and birth. Not just believing it. But understanding it. And it takes a certain amount of time in stillness before our thoughts shift wavelengths. Some say about a half an hour. Not so hard. And after two hours, we enter yet another state of mind. A worthy goal. But it just gets deeper and deeper. Can you imagine 9 days and nights? Or 40 days and nights? We reach higher as we reach inward. And discover that the form of God and Christ is preserved safely within all of us. Even our enemy. Christ is NOT hiding in a book. Though there are many wonderful books that reveal him in a mystery, for those who are bond to Pergamos like a black horse, and so do not have all this time to contemplate our first birth (i.e. what happened to our bellybutton :D-->). :)--> btw, PegX2 - I am still open to discussing things from the earlier posts on this thread. Also, my email is always open (and I'm not starting a cult :D-->) [This message was edited by sirguessalot on March 03, 2004 at 22:14.]

Too Gray, Tough stuff you write there. Maybe I’ll be more careful around that button again. ;)--> Politics and overall society stuff is a tough conversation for me. For you, too, I’m sure. Talk about seeing blood, fire and smoke… And I know we’re not talking politics, per se, but we sure are touching it a lot. Real close. But I’m not ready for that one yet, here. Though I know it is relevent to what weer writing about. Hard to avoid it sometimes. And I am glad you were able to. That’s what I started this thread is for. And you brought up a ton of other stuff I wish I had the time to write about. Right now, I’m most interested in writing about “where that spiral breaks.” Cuz it seems the most pressing matter of all. And I’ve circled the subject long enough. “…where the spiral breaks” seems like a good branch to land on. IMO, the “spiral” breaks in the middle. I wrote a little bit about it at the top of this page, regarding Thyatira. Although, in a negative sense. … Our awareness of Christ (and what that means) develops as our understanding develops. We move from oneness to twoness to threeness to fourness, etc… And our Christ-consciousness develops just as our flesh did. The 7 seals represent the stages of what bible fans refer to as being “born again.” Our consciousness begins at Ephesus, like a white horse riding forth to conquer. Thyatira is where eternal consciousness is conceived (or not). And we are NOT born again until the seventh seal is broken. But I’ve read many who write that Philadelphia (the 6th) is the “best” church of them all. Seems to me they missed the point. They see nakedness and poverty as a bad thing. I say…pass out the cigars and celebrate. :)--> To truly “master” something like the 7 lamps of the temple of Christ, we have to realize that just when we’ve arrived at the end, we’ve only just begun. But pride will keep us from this all the time. Regardless of how much pride we say we do not have. The truth of the matter is within us. God is not fooled. … But I digress… The cycle of the 4 horsemen ends with Thyatira. This is the cycle of the carnal mind. Fate, if you will. But we can only believe what we understand. If we do NOT want to understand things that sound anything like “astrology” and “reincarnation,” Thyatira is probably just a trip back to Ephesus. Back to the cycle of mortal understanding. But by grace, we have a million shots at it. If we think we can be in complete control of our lives, and that we are somehow a product of all our choices, then we do not understand our fate--our place. We may have no compassion for the weak-willed. We may see no godly purpose in death or pain. Failure is NOT an option. Then the fourth horseman is still a seal on our understanding. We have not been given the keys to Death and Hell. But the 4th seal breaking is like entering a cocoon. Learning to surrender to fate. Learning to embrace winter, from whence we came. Understanding the eternal nature of life allows us to live and die with grace. To understand how the “we” which we think “we” are is only the latest season of our greater selves... When the seasons are no longer wrestled with, our faith can finally be planted in the earth, like a body buried in a grave, gifts of healing can finally take root under the earth where no one can see them. Escape velocity of our understanding comes when we embrace the “fourness” of God’s cycles of death and birth. And this, we can observe in all of life. In the stars. In the seasons. In a woman's body. Its how Jesus The Christ did it (when he was yet a child). He surrendered to his fate, rather than tried to conquer it, beat it into submission, and put it to work. Then we can get onto facing the dragons and beasties (in Sardis and beyond). I wouldn't want to face them before it. The trumpet of Thyatira stimulates compassion and balances emotions. Its location is the heart and lungs. You can feel it when you sigh deeply. It is the center of our being. Its is the union between heaven and earth. The yoga, if you will. ... But I digress again, there are still 3 lower lamps to understand. I just wanted to address the CROSSroads. The compassion of Thyatira helps us heal those 3 lower parts of our mind, (with issues like hunger, pleasure and control). Together, the four horsemen (instincts) pull in all four directions. To "tame" them is to square an altar to worship on. Then we will have equilibrium. A level ground with which to ascend from. A sundial, if you will. … Some might say this is all too “new age.” But the books of the Bible and The Christ of the Bible teaches of many ages, new and old. Besides, most of this stuff is older than the Bible. Nothing new about it at all. Some of it is from the Kabbala and the Essenes, both of which are Abrahamic. :)--> [This message was edited by sirguessalot on March 03, 2004 at 3:23.]

No need to fret, TGN. I see you. And sometimes it just takes a few days or a week to get back here. (sometimes even a month) One could write for years on this subject of “interpreting tongues of angels via the Book of Revelation” (or whatever else you might wanna call it). But I haven’t even really started yet. Because there are biological realities triggered by understanding things in there that can really shake up a person’s life. But gifts of healing are nourished by longsuffering. Like watching and waiting for the signs of the seasons. And the best miracles are triggered with the gentleness of a massage. Knowing just where to apply pressure with your fingertip before you start an avalanche. :)--> E, Truth is, I don’t what to say either. Yet, there is so much to write. So I lurk and browse and read and lick my finger and hold it to the wind. Hoping to catch a clue as to what makes the most sense now. And the responses on this thread are the best thing I have to go by. So I appreciate you (and the rest) more than you probably know, too. Tanks. One day, yer trying to crack the nut of life via PFAL. The next day, you turn around and discover that yer already standing on a lower branch of a huge phukking tree! Even the very winds you breath are shaped by its leaves and branches. You realize that THE nut has long been cracked. ;)--> btw - the best way to comb tangles from a woman’s hair is to start untangling from the base of her spine. Move upward from the lamp of Ephesus, where the mind of Christ begins its climb. If we first massage out the kinks in Ephesus, and then Smyrna, and then the rest of the way up…we avoid the pain of yanking a bunch of hair out from the top. I do hope to get to all this someday. ;)--> … I hear ya, Roy. Lets get baked. Like lizards on a rock. Soak’n up the final heat of this day’s holy breath. Before the sun sets again. This reminds me of how Peter interpreted the meaning of the tongues of Pentecost. He spoke of a great day coming to an end (a day on the big clock). He spoke of seeing the sun turning to darkness. Elsewhere, he wrote of a divine day being like 1000 years. And remember, a night always precedes a day. Paul too. He wrote of how “the day” was nearly spent. Make the most of what’s left. In the sunset of the understanding of the Piscean mind of Christ, there was about a century of this twilight zone, About 3 generations from the touchdown to “the final wink,” And then the Piscean day of the Lord begun in a blink. ;)--> Twilight is the best time for a full spectrum of divine revelation (like Noah’s). John at Patmos saw the final rays of it. And this john doe saw it cuz he had no mote in his eye. He was deep in meditation that day. He saw the marriage procession of Christ change hands among the 24 elders. The moment the new bride and groom was born. And the moment the entire universe finished its change. A new “day of the lord” always begins in darkness. Not light. This is also what Peter was saying. And a period of almost universal stupidity followed. The west spent a millenia in the dark ages. But we’re always left with candles in the dark. And not some new candles. But the same ones that have been burning since the beginning. Kept burning by a faithful priest, in the same order as Melchizadek. So the thus-far wisdom of Christ is always preserved…in hair like snow. The temple of God is never without light. And when the piscean sun did finally “rise,” mankind found what new thing had been left in the night. The so the little fish finally discovered what the whole ocean looked like. And the apostles finally cast their nets. ;)--> IMO, an entire age has come and gone since Jesus was crucified. And, as always, we continue to move from day to day to day. We are entering a new 1000 year era of darkness and ignorance. The darkness before the dawn, so to speak. Tho after which, may we finally learn to fly.

Anything RX can be the tool of "sorcery." Getting the public hooked for the sole benefit of the "medicine man." Selling health and well-being for a profit is sorcery. TWI applies. So do a lot of other things in business, government and religion. Being cabalistic is the character of "witchcraft." Any self-centered cult. Paranoia. Hatred of those outside the "righteous" circle. TWI applies. So do a lot of other things in business, government and religion. IMO, neither of what is considered "sorcery" or "witchcraft" today covers what scripture is addressing, though it may include either one. My 2 cents.

We read and write stuff around here about evil spirits and such. And it figures. Cuz we’ve inherited quite a few heeby jeebies from you know who (and the good folks who founded Salem). ;)--> So I’ve gotta ask – what makes a spirit of God evil? When Ephesus eats without questioning, it is an evil spirit. The wrath of this inflicts us with boils and sores. Our health suffers. Cuz we eat garbage. And know not when to stop. When Smyrna bows to false social pressures and addictions, it is an evil spirit. The wrath of this inflicts us with enemies who we think are our friends. We are lonely and cowardly, even while in the midst of a mob. When Pergamos condemns and judges based on proofs and evidence, it is an evil spirit. The wrath of this inflicts us with enemies who seek an eye for an eye. Satan is in control, and is covered in blood and ever ready for war. When Thyatira can see only harlots and is ignorant of death, it is an evil spirit. The wrath of this inflicts us with unquenchable lust for what we cannot grasp. We die before our birth. If we are lost here, the other three are better left alone. For to engage them first, is to invite a woe for each one. The lower three are of earth. The other three are of heaven. Thyatira is the crossroads. The yoke. The union. The flaming sword which turns every way. The heartbeat of eternal life, which beats whether we like it or not. The birth of the gryphon (to plug my sleeping thread) :D--> I pity those who would condemn an evil spirit without understanding which hell it came from. Christ does not quench a smoking flaxen or a break a bruised reed. And all 7 stars are in his hand. Though the seat of Satan thrives on such things. For he knows he is weak. And he knows he is the carnal mind. And he can rule over no other, except those who are below him. He shows no mercy, even up until his own Smeagol accidentally destroys him. God loves to hide His left hand among the weak and worthless things. :)--> And so we should seek to fulfill the spirits of God. To end their suffering. Like trimming wicks in the temple cuz they cry in pain to heaven with prayers of smoke. Or like combing tangled knots out of a woman's hair. :)--> And you can't blame a knot out of a woman's hair. [This message was edited by sirguessalot on February 26, 2004 at 0:43.] I know, I know. That was a kindy heavy. It even came out a bit heavier than I expected to, too. Must be something in the air. (shrugs) [This message was edited by sirguessalot on February 26, 2004 at 16:57.]

Good stuff! A few thoughts: Before we are born is when the realities of heaven (outside the womb) are vague and distant. For example, we can hear the laughter of the born, but do not understand why they are laughing. We can see and feel the warm glow of the sun, but do not really understand what it is. Just that it is warm and brightening. So, is there not a difference between conception and birth? Is there not a spiritual gestation? Might we all just be spiritually conceived, and waiting for the fullness of birth? And would that be so bad? Is it not a reason to leap in the womb? Read around John 3:8 a bit, with this in mind. See if it rings a chime or two. :)-->