sirguessalot

Thanks, rascal. Why is he worthy of my protection? Is he not the least of us all? Why are you worthy of my contempt and condemnation? My contempt is for the manner of holding court. Because I recognize it. This "method" breeds nothing but ignorance and waste. And I have not condemned anyone. The future is always uncertain. Anyone's life can radically change in a single day. I think you guys are capable of helping people like this if you wanted to. But what we want is a lot different than what we wish we wanted, right? To get beyond being so quickly hurt by their ignorance. Takes courage, imo. And no, not everyone is near this kinda thing. But some of you have been sitting here awhile. And you react like its the first time you heard it all. Lets say LLPF has "chosen to align himself with evil and close his ears to the voice of God." Then who told you to condemn him? Who told you he is worthless? Who taught you to say "screw im?" Is this the God you say LLPF cannot hear? I say LLPF hears him loud and clear. Do you think anything you will say will open his ears or eyes? Do you think anything he will say will open your ears or eyes? And if he leaves the GSC, you, too, may strut and say to yourself that you struck a blow for God. My point.... Around and around it goes. Where it stops, nobody knows. Who wants off? Anyone? LLPF?

Tom - lol! Long live Klem...amen. :P--> rascal, VPW was a slimeball. He was blind and deaf. Even his sexuallity revealed the depth of his vampiric spirituallity. He was among the worse kinds of men on the face of the earth. His spirituallity reaked of greed, lust, pride, yada yada yada. And his life ended in sorrow and shame for it. As have many others. And there are thousands of people who are still suffering from what he taught them. ? You gonna convince LLPF of all this by cursing him? Do you really think LLFP is gonna convince anyone here of VP's qualities who is not already? You gonna heal him or yourself or any of the other wounded this way? By standing with the crowd and throwing rocks at his sin? By threatening him? My taunting him? Who taught you that, anyway? VP? I know. cuz LCM taught me the same crap by example. Its shadow-boxing (cuz you always miss what you are aiming at). Hey, its what comes out of the mouth that pollutes a person, right? So, I am trying to help you. Leave it or take it. LLFP has a much longer way to go, it seems. I want to make it clear that what some of you guys are doing has very little if nothing to do with this sacred Jesus dude, as you seem to imply. I know some kids who can't stand the guy's name cuz of stuff like this.

Thanks for responding, alfakat. But do not apologize to me if you cannot symphathize with someone. Besides, what have I made of LLPF that he is not already? You serve no one...not Christ, not LLPF, not a lurker, not a victim of VPW, not even yourself, by And now you say you don't see him as a pathetic schmoe? And now we are suddenly out of the high-school locker room and in a distinguished court of law? "He is obviously a (blank), and a {blank), so there." How is what LLPF is the end of the matter, anyway? "Settled? Case closed? He is such and such. Nothing else need to be said or done about it but torment it out of him?" That is called condemnation, in my books. Case closed. Who are we to condemn? I won't even condemn you. Condemnations come on their own, without help from us. I dunno.

Dontfencemein, I read yer reply to LLPF, and I see it. I don't blame ya for one word of it. Yes, let it stand. You sound like a true daughter of pain. So I pray you become a queen of it instead, in your own time. My post was more or less addressed to the men. I should have clarified. Sorry. I'm glad you posted. I'll still address this part. Yes, this is the excuse we learned in TWI to justify any rage we wanted. But is LLPF really the religious a**holes who loves to rule over everyone else? Who here is sitting in the best seats and don't care how much they hurt people? Not LLPF. This poster came out of nowhere (though I've seen his handle around). He has no seat. He is no assembly. A lone tormented accuser. Jesus got fed-up with the guys who shunned the lepers, who shunned the sickos, who shunned the queer folk. He got fed up with the whitewashed sepulchres who wouldn't help a person if the timing was not right for them. He dwelt in the company of hicks and hippies and hookers and gangsters. God knows how many religious "wack-os" there are on the street. WWJD? Chew em out? Mock their pain? Ridicule them? He would touch anyone who needed it. There was a crook on death row with him. There were torturers going through his stuff. There was a guy coming to take him away to his death and he healed his ear. So what? Jesus saw them as human beings with worth (Somehow, and not via some special Jesus pills either). But those religious a**holes he got fed up with did not. You see a difference? You see it in the world? If we think "Jesus was loving like this so we do not have to be," We have made him a scapegoat, and will always have our eye on the sky for some superman from elsewhere to come save us someday. Its the same trap that helped VPW justify all his crap, too.

Weird. Kinda kinky, even. Like I said, some just can't help themselves. Clubbed over the head. Knee-jerk. Classic. Typical. Generic. But all-natural, of course. ;)--> Its kinda gory. Like watching piranha eat or something. Is it instinct? Is it sheer joy of shedding blood? Can't always tell, I guess. Ya know, sometimes I wish more and more ex-way "trolls, freaks, sick-os and lunatics" would show up here and spew their pain like this. Maybe some of you wise ole' loving ex-way oldtimers will be forced to get a clue...get the nerve to stoop a little lower (if you dare) for the "untouchables" who followed us here out of some form of WAYbrain mob-think. See them for where they are (which is not too many steps from us, it seems). All you "followers of Christ” and/or "logical, reasonable men..." --> you heap insults and scorn and jeers and sneers and throw words like barbs at someone you yourselves call weak and worthless and mindless and sick. So you justify jabbing at a weakling in the name of Jesus?!? In the name of reason? Or is it common sense, this time? What do you do when you visit a hospital or mental hospital? Is there a (Christian/rational) limit to how low we should stoop to try and connect with someone? Hello? Don't you feel like **** for this? A little? Did your Jesus teach you this? Or did your loathing of this kinda Jesus teach you this? One “side” or the other, and this Jesus dude becomes your bloody scapegoat. And thats gotta suck, either way. And I tell ya, if you didn't brag and quarrel about how logical and moral and ex-way your views are are compared to (fill in the blank with whomever the latest "troll" is), what could anyone say? It might be easier to laugh it off, I guess. But after all these years of hanging out here and sharing all our wisdom, you would think that when some “freak” ex-way pops out of the woods like a raving madman, the oldtimers could try and see them for where they are, and not for how much it hurts or offends poor little wonderful heroic courageous Godly us. And I’m not talking about forming some new improved version super-non-cult of ex-cult-people-helpers (“we, on this side helping those who are on that side”). I am talking human freakin beings dealing with the bloody things of life together. Like good samaritans (or whatever ya wanna call em). If there's a dude in the ditch, you gonna just pass him by? What else is going on right now? All you have to do is try to make it start working in the other direction. Looks like some of you know what I mean (the more loving/mutual the laughter, the more it works like a medicine, it seems). ? I don't know. I'd rather post about sex. ;)--> I'm just sitting here, and I can't help what I see. I might even regret this post (for a while or two). :P--> btw – LLPF...if yer still around...I gotta ask, you came here drawing lines and looking for a sword-swinging contest. But if one does not seek peace BEFORE they seek war, then how can say they serve the prince of peace, and not the prince of war? Should "it" ever be any more complicated than this? Do we really even need a book or a prophet to show us the difference between the two?

Ok. Heerz my rock (more like a tomato): I don't know what's funnier, :o--> 1) a nest of angry bees walking into a bar of ex-bees, or 2) those who think that if they throw rocks at a nest of bees it will somehow cast it out of the house and make it stop stinging everyone. :P--> :P--> Sure, it may eventually go away. But if it doesn't, the next thing you know it will be a swarm, and some of us will be so stung we'll run wailing out of the house to a bee-less place, rending and tearing at our clothes, exposing some or all of our private things. Unless, of course, we are immune to bee stings, but find some kind of advancement by tormenting lesser devils/trolls/spirits, whatever. Oh, I mean, human being. --> Sorry, no ill will. I love this place. For me, its more like trying hard not to laugh at a chorus of farts in a lunchroom of ex-Jesus preachers. I'm really trying not to bust outloud. Bottom line, I guess. LLPOF is obviously ....ed about something. Really wanna help people out of any kind of TWI-mode (whatever the heck that means), try and help yourself all the way out of it, too. This cafe is a place of transit. And he seems more troubled than most. Make it worth something. After all, you sit here. Heroes...who needs em? :P--> Hey, accuser. Why do you give a **** about a bunch of lying losers, anyway? Why do you care so much about them? I mean, what is it about their sins that have you so tortured? Its not like you or I are gonna escape God's fire either, right? So, what's at stake for you? Someone promise you goodness if you go out and sting people? ? I don't know. Just trying to figure out what's got you so wigged out about VPW, Why you choose the role of accuser/prosecutor, And why that wigs so many others out. Anyway, if you ever come through AZ, I'll break bread/coffee with ya. You can record whatever you want. My email is open, too. I'll talk about VPW, TWI, whatever. Look forward to seeing you round here tho, if you can tune in better and stick around. Isn't that what speaking in tongues was all about? Tuning into the crowd, Speaking their language? Somehow finding the tune and the time and somehow playing along so everyone understands each other? Making melody in our hearts? Yackity yada yada yada. Oh well. We're all trying to figure it out. Just trying to play along. Good luck. Peace, Todd

Like a daystar rising in our hearts, I think. Its really good to see ya, VL. :)-->

A lot of good stuff on this thread. I agree. Anger just is when it is. When and how much and what kind of damage it does varies wildly. Anger can be one of our closest teachers if we let it. Like using venom to combat venom. It sounds funny, but I found that it actually helps to growl and howl and wail and sweat and pound on the ground or a drum in the hot darknes. No kidding. It'll rattle your guts and bones where you need. That's if you can find a suitable venue for it. :P--> (For example, 4 rounds in a decent native sweat lodge will embrace your angers really well). And our anger and our sorrows go hand in hand, too, it seems. When we find ourselves at the bottom, they become indistinguishable from each other. So it seems useful to consider them in light of each other. How they dance so well together. I agree. Find a good therapist. I have always been afraid of western head-sciences, and I've also carried a lot of anger about some pretty vile events in my life. But I've pretty much radically changed my mind about professional therapy lately (and am in need of some, soon, it seems). I even sense that even in all its recent advances, this is another embryonic science whose cutting edge is moving at a pretty good clip right now. And it seems there are more good affordable and effective therapists out there than before (as well as some of those "rock-stars" of therapy who have written some good books). btw - Anyone here know any indicators of negative trends to watch for in finding one? :)-->

WAX ON WAX OFF lol!

Hi, ckeer. I've never heard of Knowles, but I will look it up. Tea-Chi/Tea-ching...yuk yuk. ;)--> Haven't had a chance to study Tai-Chi much yet either. Gong..........! I have found that this method has been given so many names, and can be traced back to antiquity. "Tonglen" is the Tibetan name for it, for example, but the practice is itself is beyond names. Its form has surfaced in countless places (such as Knowles and Tai-Chi, obviously). It is both art and science of the human body and mind. The process of visualization is more powerful than we often realize. With it, we can move and arrange energies of our own body, but also beyond our own body. If we can feel it, it is real, right? Also, an "exercise" is a fine description, but it doesn't quite capture the full purpose. Maybe "tool" or "device" (both of which can also serve as exercises). But this is not just mental gymnastics. It is a transforming practice. There is "a witness" in the outcome. Our breathing and our ability to visualize are some of the most powerful tools we have in our human anatomy. Problem is, we usually only live with the accidental versions of both. Education is the key to reversing this trend, if we can ever get over the cultural/scriptural taboos. The highest inner sciences that Jesus used were already developed before the flood even washed Noah's world away. Our deepest strengths unfolds with the intent of giving life from within ourselves. Blasphemy against the pneuma hagion is the one not forgiven, right? Why not? Because its like holding your breath. One way or another, we always lose. :)--> Sorry, didn't mean to sound so corrective. It wasn't my purpose for posting it. Hey, I heard a good one tonight: We are not humans trying to be spiritual beings. But spiritual beings trying to be human. ;)-->

Thanks Raf. I hear ya. Makes sense. Good stuff. And I hope you don't think/thought I think/thought you think/thought the other way (being, that you were trying to play some sort of pied piper with your site). This thread was a general appeal to the trend. Not to stop the trend, but to address it "at the well-spring," and even moreso, to offer a real-time practical tool that one can take whether they leave or not. :)--> Chuck, regardless of what the "jesus/bible/god says" thing, I say you are NOT limited to give only what you have received. You already have and are so much, regardless. And we are not really dealing with sand or bags of money, but the very medium (yes, a tangible medium) of human compassion and understanding, patience, friendship, peacemaking, etc... Sure, these things have limits and bounds, but you are the primary developer of those borders. In the end, it is foolish to get angry at anger (just as its ok to be a fool, too). For no one really chooses to be angry. But we can choose whether we are driven by it. Sometimes, we can just step back and watch our own anger flare up like a passive witness of a shooting star. Count to 10, they say. Or 1000. Anger overcomes us. It makes us irrational. It sweeps us off our feet. But who can resist such a thing once it has bitten us in the heart? So why blame your enemy for being angry with you? IMO, all the brawlers have simply been snuck up on and clubbed over the head while you weren't looking (so, trying looking - ask yourself what triggered "their" anger - it had to be something - don't judge it, just see it, then take it in as if you were them). The sooner we see this part of it, the sooner we can move pass (or better yet, escape) the blame game (blaming ourselves, too). Its the blame game that keeps us going in circles (like a cage match). Its the trial that never wants to end. It just peters out when everyone is too emotionally exhausted to say another word. Drunk on blood, to put it mildly. Last man to topple over wins the game. yahoo. --> And the hangover is a b!tch, too. "Dude, where's my car?" Who the heck knows. So, try the tea for a day or two. Think of it as an ancient chinese secret. :D--> And yeah, Duv, It sucks for us, more than anyone, to have a swollen red darkness in our head. Which makes us even more uncomfortable and more irritable and more defensive when another like-inflicted voice bumps into us. Though we like to say the source of our anger is out there somewhere in the darkness. Or better yet, "here is the culprit now!" ;)--> Better to consume the darkness in the fires of our own heart, then to continually produce it and desperately try to find a place to dump it all. Its like sending nuclear waste to the sun rather than in your neighbor's yard. :)--> Thanks to everyone who has posted on this thread (even regardles of content). Keeps it popping to the top. Please, let me know how/if the method works, if you like (I know, its kinda naked). Cuz sure, it may sound good in writing. It may fill our thoughts with light (which is wonderful - beautiful). But what is that compared to bringing a real transformation towards an ideal? Compared to transforming our relationships with our children, spouses, co-workers, strangers, enemies, folks on the TV, our own selves? In the beginning, it is only us we are changing. And this gets hard to say after a while, because everyone else begins to look different too. But in the end, it is not only us who are changed. Because it is contagious. Share the tea. Pay it forward. Peace

Hi Pat. I won't boggart the thread this time. But just wanted to say thanks for starting the conversation and for letting me roam a bit. Its been like a cool glass of water in the desert. :)--> Maybe we/they just misunderstood the Timothy verses that warned against teaching doctrines of devils. Perhaps the writings simply warn us against getting wrapped-up in doctrines of devils. :)-->

Hi Chuck. Truly sorry about your brother. Thanks for being so open about your rage and stuff. Raw as a red dragon, at times. Aint it? What can ya do? I know Raf. Thanks for trying it again tho. G-bye, I guess. (shrugs) :(-->:)--> Ok, heerz another little rant: (seein as how most responses have very little to do with the method I described in the first post) Re: all this rejecting and accepting, all this attacking and defending... Honestly, and Doctrinally, how can the Christians justify all this? Where did all these "holy" methods of problem solving come from, anyway? Who really taught these standards? And how well are they working? I mean, are you not "man enough" to sit down with the publicans and sinners without "choosing" who is who? Give up your chief seat. Do you represent the prince of peace or war? If your antagonists are so feeble and broken and ignorant and weak and godless, then heal them, for God's sake. Feed them. Help clothe their poor souls, why don't ya? Fill your "enemies" with warmth, if you've the heart to do it. The will? Otherwise, I suggest you stop name-dropping, and for your sake, more than anything. No one is ever gonna hurt your Jesus again anyway, and perhaps all your irritating flies will go away (not the people, but the irritations). Ya see what I mean? If the "infidels do it first," which justifies the "children of God" doing it til the day Jesus flies back, have you really learned any new laws since Egypt or The Woods? We gotta new deal, right? Perhaps you simply do not know how. Knowledge is not a given, after all, right? Try the tea, for starters. I'm not joking. Really. ;)--> Or maybe you think "it" is a fool's errand, or completely unwise as a "future" investment, and so all this soul-stabbing is completely justified in the courtroom of God, in order to protect your assets and the assets of your closest friends. I can understand this. Big time. Heck, we came from the same ocCULTtic migraine, remember? And the world is full of it, all this eating each other alive like fish eating fish eating fish eatng fish. Stuck somewhere in a spiritual food chain. There are always bigger fish (and smaller ones). I do hope I have poked and stirred something in you all. I won't press on this hardened, sore spot very long. But perhaps long enough to help "break it up" so things can flow. Besides, it seems hard to find stimulating Christian conversation any more (SSDD). And so I have to stimulate it myself, like a dancing fool in his underwear if thats what it takes. :)-->

Ok, thanks for the attempt, Raf. I just caught it. And, in a way, you guys are kinda addressing the topic I started, from some wierd angle, I guess. It might even be called better than nothing. Anywa, you guys are all over the place, and quickly, and I gotta go for awhile. btw - what is monkeyc***, Zix? If I'm in it, I at least want inside the joke. :P-->

Thanks for the props of the hat, Lindy. I'm glad you've enjoyed the wine. Did I put mushrooms in it or something? :o--> :D--> :D--> I see us trying to casually take another sip as the desperate trio smashes through our table like a cartoon cloud. I can hardly stop myself from grinning too (did you put mushrooms in mine? ). But I kinda saw it coming, but wasn’t quite sure how and when this wonder would present itself. But honestly, guys. I don't mind, really. You guys really crack me up sumtimes. Cuz you aint hurting this thread much. Its like an ice-sculpture to me. Just please, put some clothes on or something. I can’t tell whether to dub it a courtroom of white-wigged barristers hurling and breathing reams of foul evidence at each other’s darkness, or a drunken frat orgy (with some man-on-man action, I might add). Ya know. I think if I didn't know how to laugh, I think I'd cry all the freakin time! :P--> :P--> :P--> I really wish you would stay and talk longer. I will try not to reject you. Please. Sit. At least try and talk about the friggin tea. ;)--> Its not like I wasn't specific. I know you guys can be smart and cool and good and all that, when and if you aren't so compelled by other things. Perhaps we can get to the heart of the matter. Or have you lost hope in that? As E would say, mwah! :)-->

Thanks, you guys, for the reviews of the brew. And please share any results you experience, if and when. Like I said, it gets very directly to the heart of the matter (our matter), both coming and going. :)--> Not that I don't like watching a good brawl every now and then, (it can be a beautiful thing to behold, like watching a fight on Animal Planet) I only wish the troubled Christians (Mike, too) would at least pop in to sample. Would it help if I made the title more bold and offensive? Probably. ;)-->

:)--> :)--> :)-->

..and Christians in general, and whomever else wants to read. A shot in the dark is like a lamp on a hill, I suppose. Better to light one candle than curse the darkness. --- So here is a simple cup of tea, brewed to help soothe all these acceptions and rejections that have come to trouble the GSC. Though even the untroubled will benefit, if they wish. Its medium is familiar. It is pneuma hagion. I assume that all this “leaving” of the GSC is for similar reasons (but different for each, of course), and all this “staying” is for different reasons (but similar of each, of course). I can also assume that the “want-to-leavers” are wanting to do so for what they consider to be Christian reasons based on Christian principle. After all, is there any other reason for a Christian? As an obvious yacker of various things Christ, and as a visiting frequenter of this here caf?I write this now in hopes that you “leavers” either taking these words with you in the spirit of peace (if leaving is what you do), or stay in the spirit of peace, and work out the things you claim to want in the spirit of reason, if whom you insist is your Master has indeed shown you how. And so, in peace and grace, with barest chest … I say this with the most Christian language I can muster. Not a doctrine, but an open practice to all. Thus, the forum I chose. --- I ask, who here cannot feel that pain deep in your soul? That pulsating ache that never seems to go away? Increasing as the years wear on? Don’t worry. Its just that our soul is pregnant with a new Spirit of Love, which is the Christ of God. And just like birth of the flesh, the good news is that there IS joy on the other side of the tears and pangs of pain. So do not resist what is causing this pain. You mothers already know whereof I speak. Perhaps we all just need a spiritual midwife to help us through the "great tribulation" of Christ's coming. ;)--> And so, when it comes to bearing such a Kid, it is better to ache with this unborn Love than not to ache at all. Or worse yet is to cover oneself in armor and draw lines in the sand because the slightest prick feels like a stab to the heart. We may remain barren. Besides, like Jesus demonstrated...a stab to the heart need not kill you. Or stir you to hatred. Let me show what I mean. And he did. Quite explicitly, no? So whose Christ can you accept? And whose Christ can you reject? Such a choice reminds me of choosing whose baby lives and whose baby dies. Only a cruel master would do such a thing. So I will give you mine. As I always try to do. And I have already accepted yours, many times. Even though you may not want to do the same. Do you know what I mean? That is, if you have even conceived of this kind of Love. I’m sure you have, but conception is NOT the same as birth, is it? There is an unmistakable period of transformation in between the two. Do you want it, or not, depends on whether you seek such a thing. Sometimes we seek only the pleasing and comfort of one's own self. And so, I say, seek to learn to manifest Love like you wish you could. For to do so, is to become an apostle, introducing a new light to the world. Nothing is worth more to you, and everyone else. It is a pure white gold intent, if you will. Pain, like questions, will lead you through the darkness. Pain will reveal all your personal edges. Perhaps you say, “I would if I could, but I can’t so I won’t, and so before Christ, my Lord, I am justified in all my rejections and isolation from and cursings and accusations and offenses of my "enemies."” This illness, or feebleness of soul is what this cup of tea was originally made for. A method to stir this unborn ember I speak of and we read of, be it currently a burning sun or smoldering spark. It will make no difference in the end. It is a recipe of the ancients, brewed from the simplest leave and herbs from the tree of life. But masters the world over have perfected it for thousands of years. Even Jesus, the Christ of the world, whom our deeply offended claim to serve. I am just a wanderer who picked up the recipe from a traveller. And so I pass it on. So enjoy, if you dare. ;)--> And if you do, practice making it yourself. --- The Art of Sending and Taking The breath of life is one of the most powerful tools we have. When we breath, we stimulate the subtle energies of the soul. We shape and reshape the qualities of the currents of electricity, light, water, blood. Our body and mind are shaped by these simple things. Our emotions. Our desires. But Christ taught us to breathe like this. He exhaled his spirit onto his students, and told them to receive it. And we also read how he took on all the darknesses of the world. Am I wrong? It works like this: Breathe OUT all the goodness and light you can muster. Make friend and enemy alike sparkle in your radiant intent. Then breath IN the darknesses between and around you. Like a black, smoky tar, inhale them deep into your heart. Try to do this, from breath to breath to breath. It sounds simple. Because it is. If we think it is a meaningless gesture of our imagination, we understand little of the nature of breath and power of love, or of the subtler realms of the soul and spirit. We understand little of how love and intent moves and shapes atoms and molecules. We understand little of how our very thoughts and emotions are made of the same stuff as the rest of our body. Stuff. And this practice takes courage, believe it or not. To breathe in darkness? You bet. It may even make you nauseous at first. But if you cannot do it, you might wanna ask yourself why? More than a conquerer, huh? Show me. It takes an openness. A true nakedness of soul. And as you develop in it, what it does is transform you. It stimulates and cultivates the deepest YOU, most of all. And breathe life into that unborn Love gestating within the womb of your soul. Using basic elements like oxygen, electricity, light, water, which is carried by your blood. In the end, we are basically working with physical realities. Nothing more, nothing less. To the degree you practice and explore with it, you will gradually become that unflinching Lover of all. Emotional pain does not go away, but it becomes ever so bearable. Enabling us to rise above more than before. The heart of a different kind of warrior will emerge and unfold. Like burning away old hand-me-downs and donning a new cloak that is inflammable. No, the world will not change. But our view of it will. So practice breathing goodness when you exhale. Try not to puke your darkness all over, like when you sigh with anger or seeth with hate. Try not to gasp for goodness like a desperate and drowning fish. Reverse the flow, and develop more ways of courageous being. The power of this practice will unfold very rapidly in your life if you give yourself to it. And most women already know this, naturally. You mothers especially. For it is the way of giving birth to a child. And we all must be born again, right? And so perhaps we are not as spiritually “far along” as we thought, or as we claim. Especially if we want to keep our Christ hiding with us in a private cave. But see that there is a divine offspring of Love kicking at the walls of our heart. We can feel it. It is unmistakable. Especially as it grows until it is out of room. Perhaps we can partake in a true transformation of the human soul, not just another fairy tale. What, do you think the darkness may hurt the Christ? I think Jesus proved Christ’s threshhold for pain, as well as his indestructability. Darkness makes this capacity for true love shine ever brighter. Fans its flames by blowing its light out into the darkness, So that it shines like a lamp on a hill, or a star in the sky. And so breathe out your goodness without exception. As often as you remember. Do not quench the spirit. Give freely of it in any way you can imagine. Fill your enemies with warmth and light as you do, Whether they are your religious antagonist, or the dumb-a$$ blocking traffic. And always try to include yourself in its light. And be brave enough to take in whatever darknesses you can feel and see, Let these pains and tribulations be consumed upon the fires of your heart. Whether they be the mutual frustrations of your religious antagonist, Or the mutual impatience of all us dumb-a$$es stuck in traffic. And always try to include your own darkness. Ok, so it may not be “your cup of tea.” But this pain some are so driven to avoid is the guardian of the gate. Besides, its not like your gonna go get yourself crucified in the flesh, or something. Or give all your money and time to an occultic cabal. All we are playing with is our breath, really. Kids toys. Something that belongs to us and no other. Against such, there is no law. If indeed we are trying to change the intent of our hearts. What have we got to lose but our own light? Why must we reject every darkness, if Christ is within? What? Is our God-given breath of life nothing more than a ticking clock? To tell someone else when we are dead? I hope not. And I doubt it. I look forward to feedback from, as well as further discussion of. :)--> Cheers, Todd p.s. there are many more “brews” like this in scriptures, which correspond with other eastern sciences and practices. But this one is very direct. Very effective. A staple, if you will. To use a familiar framework, its focus is on the heart and Christ and the Cross, which is our center of being (were the great union is), and so puts it in the category of “gifts of healing,” which requires us to eat the fruit of “longsuffering.” And so we meet him in the air. As always, Christ is closer than we think.

ckeer, I've never met an outline I did not like. ;)--> As to the grande finale stuff in the BOR: When our spiritual perspective changes, all former things do pass away. When our inner perspective changes, our understanding of the outer world changes, even as the outer world is changing all the time. But again, these grande finale revelations come to our soul after a lot of other inward work is done. It isn't just "I renew my mind one day and, viola...I see a new heaven and earth." As I have said, the BOR seems to hold The mystery curriculum of Christine discipline. Practice, practice, practice. Like playing an instrument. But that is not to say that there are no real ages and times and world events related to Christ-based thought. But these vast outward changes come as more people change on the inside, mostly. I do believe there will be a day when all eyes shall see him, but if this day is when all eyes see him first and foremost within, does that change much about what was written and said about his coming? And there are revolutions within revolutions within revolutions. The "day of the lord" is a big revolution that is always coming, just as tomorrow is always coming. Day after day after day after day. Not just once (Peter saw it, remember?). In other words, the full cycle of the BOR happens again and again and again, from day of the lord to day of the lord, for better or worse, always bigger and better than before. In increments, always achieving and gaining towards goodwill on earth. Indeed, our carnal selves are blades of grass. And the wheel in the sky keeps on turning. There are days when all of mankind seems to learns a new trick all at once (which is again, an inward experience). But as you can see, the day of the lord is a huge derail for this thread. I just wanted to mention my thoughts on it so its clear that I do not condone becoming trapped inside yourself. re: all the spirits and beings and characters in the BOR. Yes, the living creature are directly related to the horsemen of the seals. But they are not beings, per se. Like the creatures, the horsemen are representatives/results/manifestations of the first 4 of the 7 spiritual planes. The creatures are the fourfold nature of carnal un-reincarnate man (which is O.T. understanding). The four instincts, if you will. The four "givens" of human nature. Those four base things (which are also serve good purposes) which must be "tamed." Notice, that after the first four seals, trumpets and bowls, experiences get more intense, not less. Woes come. Because, the fourth spirit is the limit of mortal understanding. From here on out/in, things get more complex, but the more the first four (the four corners of the altar) are prepared, the more capable one will be in handling the usually daunting complexities. We can become trapped in higher places. Putting the cart before the horse. One can have open eyes to see truth, but not understand it, and lack the skill to express it, and so they go on and on and on sounding like a raving lunatic, misrepresenting what they see but do not understand. The fact that they are seeing something true is undeniable, especially to them. Like knowing only one or two chords and claiming you know all the scales. VPW is a good example of this. Sure, he had some peak experiences and saw some higher things, but he lacked "the knees and the feet." So he remained subject to his instincts, mostly, like an ignorant beast in the woods. Poor slob. The four horsemen of the beasts carried him along, even as he learned to jump and steal fruit off the higher branches. And truth is truth, whether you eat it it fresh off the vine yourself, or buy it spoiled and pawned-off as holy (which is always overpriced, it seems, in more ways than one). It should come as no surprise that the higher trumpets and such are associated with woe. Double woe to the carnal man who thinks he can subject higher spiritual realities to lower instincts. ;)--> As for the thousands and thousands of thousands and other countless beings and multitudes in the BOR, again, this book is about a 7-eyed lamb. It is about changing and developing perceptions of the same darn things everyone is looking at and has been looking at from the beginning (whenever that was). But here is one minor complexity that may help keep from fundamentalist singular-meaning: Every truth and principle and spirit and thing is best viewed through a multi-faceted lense (which is disorienting, like new glasses, but takes practice). All 7 spiritual planes (and things) apply to inner/outer/collective/individual. But we are best to start at inner-individual, because it is our most direct route to the divine. The shortest trip. The only hope we have of entering heaven in one lifetime. It is the eye of the needle. And the inner-alone is the only one available to a naked soul in the dark. But we often get stuck in outer-individual/collective. Where there is weeping and gnashing of teeth, the BOR says. Nothing but anger and sorrow in the outer world where the source of light comes from so far away we do not even know where it comes from. Now that is seperation from God. Gotta go. Love you guys.

(:)--> Lost in Translation - beautiful movie, but very subtle. Thumbs up. And I know...wrong thread). Krysilis, I never really thought about the recent fuss as being attacks mitigated by the Waygb (or other like-minded "adversary"), though these kinds of folks would definately take advantage of the ruckus, it seems. But the overall nature of it seemed too typical. Almost predictable. Textbook. And I just don't think the waygb are smart enough to make it look so accidental. :D--> Who knows? :)-->

lol, U.H. lol! And nice chops, ckeer. :)--> Pat, Yes, I would call this inner guru, great master The/our personal guardian angel. It only has our best interest in heart, for that is its purpose and nature. Which offers angelic protection before, after and regardless of being "born again." And consider... Ministering spirits, Flames of fire, Cloven tongues, like as of fire, Interpreting/speaking in tongues of angels, 7 stars (angels of the churches), And we (Christ within) are 7 lamps (churches). TWI's distant view of angels were typical, it seems. Feeling more comfortable if higher things remain more distant and unreachable. That way, we can brag and walk as elite, yet remain unaccountable to what we preach. Leaving no real chance of demonstration or evidence, really. And so they are off the hook. All they have to do is talk about it. And so is becomes yet another mere translation of a myth as opposed to providing a truly transformative and liberating path, or way. Re: unutterable names. Like I have mentioned, light communicates more and more directly than sound. Light is a medium of color, form, image, animation, etc... Whereas spoken names/words rely upon another medium to fulfill it. When I say "purple berry," you draw a picture in your head (via light). Light/shape brings meaning to words quickly. Or, if I wrote the word "tree" on a wall and a thousand years pass, one may need a spend some time in a lexicon (or other secondary source) to learn its meaning. But if I drew a picture of a tree and a million years pass, aliens from space could glance at it and get a pretty good idea of what it means. But there are other factors with names, as well: For example, to see the astrology associated with our mortal conception and/or birth is to see a form of our name (and words we find to express and explain it are still secondary to the actual shape and form of the astrological factors). Also, the vibrations of verbalized sounds, as they vibrate both within our bodies and without our bodies, carry specific signatures that are important factors in names/words. To see our divine name is to more-or-less see (comprehend) the generic form of human reality we all share. But that it has a generic (genetic) origin does not discount our own personal twists. Names within names within names, all ultimately resting in the nameless, I guess.

Hi Psalm 71 one, I've been thinking about this, and if I may, I would say that those who were so highly offended by the statement cannot be followers of Jesus (in this category of "what offends them"), for it seems Jesus did not teach them to be so easily offended and outraged by such small things. In fact, his tools and disciplines will/do enable students of his to overcome mere wordy pain at an early stage in their discipleship. It was covered in Mortallity 101, so to speak. Those who were not offended may just be more developed along these lines. In other words, be it via faith in Jesus or not, their sense of identity is intact enough to withstand the desire to freak out when someone "insults their faith." Besides, any faith worth its salt should not be so fragile or subject to offense, IMO. Where is the courage resist mere self-preservation? Certainly Jesus is not threatened by such things. As a believer in this Jesus dude, I wish more of those proclaiming Christ-ianity could grab onto these kinds of things, rather than be so quickly overcome and compelled to further the cycle of rejections and eneminess. :)--> :(--> Just a thought or two. I hope things cool down. Looks like a misunderstanding that was used as an excuse to draw some blood and vent some anger. Oh well. Mama always said "be careful or someone may lose an eye."

Yes. spirit guides. They come in all shapes and sizes. Mostly representing fragments of entire spiritual "regions." Most are honest to a fault, but some are not-so-honest (oftentimes because they simply do not understand, or are misplaced or lost). This is the wilderness, where spirit beings are as innocent and instinctual as plants and animals. But there is also a crown on this spiritual kingdom, which is "the anointed cherubim that covereth" all bases. It is a spirit being of the complete spectrum, or arch-angel. Early in our "spiritual development," we may encounter this being in our lives as an angelic otherworldly or mysterious being. And as our spiritual perception unfolds, it may appear as a radiant Christ, or Buddha, or Mother Mary, or Giant Whale in Outer Space, etc... But in reality, this encounter/experience is with a manifestation of our truest, deepest celestial self, trying to guide our lower, worldly "self" (trying not to freak us out completely). If we are a "fruit" or a "branch," are we not also "tree?" Yes, even more so. For there really is no seperation (unless our knowledge of good and evil is still broken off.) This is how we can "walk among serpents and scorpions." Like loving, knowledgable spiritual zoologists and botanists who understand the wilderness and its harmonies and disharmonies (Jesus style). Not ignorant crusaders who blindly rage in pain and fear and against a pantheon of evil giants and villains (O.T. style). "The devil" is just a snake, for God sakes! :D--> Re: names of good spirits: Just like people, a spirit may have been given a name that it clings to, or have chosen a name and remains attached to it. And so this name will have a certain power over the named, though it is not the end of the matter. Liberation from names is that "white stone," that "pearl of great price," that "baptism of fire" which purges our soul from our "old garments." And we have a new name that only we know (because even we ourselves cannot utter it). We can only see it.

Thanks, 2fer. If/when I come up with something publishable, I'll probably announce it here. And so we don't derail Pat's thread, there is an old thread about 3 pages down in the doctrinal forum with a few more thoughts on the book: An Interpretation of Tongues

Good questions. Especially the last one (imo). Peace.