sirguessalot

A few quick questions, Def, since you mentioned it, but not to get into a long wrestling match. But to illustrate another point. The wrestling match that matters is within, anyway, IMO. Which is where our real enemy hunts for us. Not in a forum. The reason I ask is because I can assume that you are setting your view of yourself in contrast to your view of me. Stepping across the room and drawing a line between us? You have found and focus on God. Whereas, I do not. I have a beam in my eye. Right? So... How can you see Christ in you, if you avoid looking in the mirror? And how does one focus on God if one will not grow their wisdom of the inner man (who was made in the form of God from the beginning)? But all it takes is a spec to blind an eye. And I don't think you have a beam. So I'll accept your answers, def, whatever they are. And I hope you don't think my questions are not as serious as they seem. To me, they aren't. There has got to be more important things than what we say to each other here, right? And yes. I suppose you could say that "IT" is all about God. Life, that is. Which is within God, moving and being. .... Here is a quick something... Often, when we think of lists, and linking chains of understanding, we perceive order like: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 But this is the order a seed is planted. The direction in which roots grow downward into the earth. Or like how we write and read dead words on dead paper. Just like Paul wrote. But if we want to grow in understanding, maybe it might help to "see" things in the upward order of growth. Like a living tree reaching for the sun. Like seeing ourselves in a reflection on the beach. 7 - Discerning of Spirits 6 - Prophecy 5 - The Workings of Miracles 4 - Gifts of Healing 3 - Faith 2 - Word of knowledge 1 - Word of Wisdom "Which way is up?" seems like a basic word of wisdom, if we want to grow. This is a reward of Ephesus... Like a tree of life. To know which was is up, and to know which way is down. And so, to know where the midst of life is, as it grows upward and outward. Kinda hard to grow at all, without having that one first, IMO. ;)-->

Thanks, def59. Good to hear yer not hurt. :)--> Feel free to amuse yourself here. We all just trying to figure out to become babes again, right? ;)--> Peace

Nice stuff, Roy. Doesn’t hurt to test your faith, does it? Bounce it off the wall a bit? See what breaks and what won’t? And thanks again, E. I do, too. ;)--> Ok, still sittin here wunderin where the heck to go next. Hows this… So as to distinguish what I write here from that of TWI and ex-way folks who claim to possess the safest and most sure route to Heaven, or the afterlife, or God’s presence, or Jesus/Jehovah's secret club, or whatever...I want everyone to know that I do NOT consider what I write to be safer than anything, or more sure. In fact, some of it seems outright dangerous and risky to believe, and not really necessary at all for living a peaceful life. So venture at your own risk, and please don’t take what I write more seriously than I take it myself. Toys are toys. But even so, I still try to avoid writing about the freakier stuff in public. I try to stick to the language of us ex-way. And I’ll try to explain why somewhere (especially if I ever get to writing a little about the 5th trumpet). Most of all, I just wanna share some deep stuff with people I care about. Stuff that has helped me a lot. And I honestly can’t think of a better place to write about it. So…I hope you continue to enjoy. :)--> A few thoughts on tongues and Pentecost… VPW taught that what happened with tongues on Pentecost was special phenomenon. The “miracle” of Pentecost, I think he called it, was how all the people of different backgrounds understood what the apostles were saying. The apostles just spoke without thinking about the words (like they were taught in PFAL)--and viola...they magically spoke the wonderful works of God in Libyan, without even knowing what they were saying in Libyan!?!?! huh? But I think those “phenomenal” results are standard for tongues. And so much more than the way PFAL explained them. The people of Pentecost were well-travelled and almost all spoke at least some form of the “english” of the day, including the apostles and disciples. And the apostles and disciples were NOT strictly Mosaic Jews. And their “old testament” reading material was NOT strictly canonized it is in the Bible. They were more like Jewish pagans. Like Jesus, they were Galilean “country folk” who hung out with (and so learned the beliefs of) philosophers, Egyptians, magi-types, mystics, gnostics, essenes, foreigners, etc… All in all, I think the characters of the opening chapters of Acts were more well-equipped linguistically and intellectually than we often give them credit for. Not a bunch of geniuses, but not a bunch of cavemen either. Tongues of Pentecost - Not a magical universal dialect translator, although words of many dialects were involved. Languages are born from symbolisms, which are born from religious beliefs. Our religion determines the shape of our language. The meanings within and around our words. The character of our mythos determines the symbology of our words. To speak in tongues, is to speak via this symbology. To speak via form, which is the communication of light. It is making music with meanings. Like the way Roy can whip up a list of numerical significances and associate it via words. But we know what Corinthians 14 says about that, right? People will think yer crazy. And speaking in tongues of angels without a discerning of the 7 spirits of God will make even less sense, I suppose. Maybe like putting the cart before the horse? How can we interpret the tongues of angels if we do not discern the distinct spirits of the churches? This is the ability of a spirit-willed soul. The soul of a person who has lit the lamps of understanding. Cloven tongues, like as of fire. To see the universal nature of God’s Christ is to be able to speak of it. To see and communicate via the spiritual forces that have been written on, yeah – have written--every man’s conscious since the beginning. For as Paul said, of one blood has every man come. To see how God has spoken to all races the world over, is to unlock the mysteries of Babylon. To not see the connections, is for Babylon to have fallen. And so tongues are confused. To speak the language of the heart and soul, is to speak in tongues. So yes, I suppose it is a “magical” thing. Out of the abundance of the heart, the mouth speaketh. And also, if we listen, we can follow a person’s words straight to their heart. Like a mouse following a trail of crumbs. On Pentecost, the apostles were speaking in mysteries/riddles that people of other religious backgrounds could understand. Because the figurative language which they used transcended the current Jewish paradigms. It drew on the truths that live in the hearts of all races of men. Even though Peter’s epiphany of the spiritual non-jew was years off, the non-jew was already able to recognize the universal form of what Christ knew and demonstrated. What a sight, for a gang of Galilean jews to be walking among the religious hanger-outers of the time (from all over the world) speaking things of Christ that rang true with their own religions. A lot like Paul on Mars Hill. But they did not stop there. Even after the tongues really wowed them, Peter offered an interpretation of tongues. He offered his best explanation of what had just happened. :)--> When we speak in tongues well, it is meant to be understood by those who are listening. At least the form of it. But misunderstood by those who do prefer to mock. Tongues are like playing music with shapes and concepts of wisdom. Sometimes, making parallels and lists of word associations. Like singing psalms and spiritual songs in your heart. Making assocations via the 7 angels of the 7 churches. I bet most of it was oral and spontaneous. Some of it was like doodling in the sand. Not meant to be permanent, though some have been recorded as psalms and proverbs. Like a Native American or Tibetan sand-painting. Ephemeral wisdom...not afraid of fire and smoke. Yes...poetry, at times. Of thought. of will. of word. of deed. When we speak of the churches and angels, we are also thinking of them, most powerfully and directly via imagery. Yes, our imagination (unless our "imagination is darkened.") Thought is most directly via light. And when we think of the tongues of fire, these are like the angels climbing up and down Jacob’s ladder. And we can learn to lengthen and trim the wicks of the lamps---within. And the smoke of them rises to God. The divine forces of creation CANNOT NOT honor these 7 planes of prayer. Meditation on the spirits of God is also speaking in tongues, to ourself. And the wisdom from this is often more than words can express. Also, giving a good foot massage is another powerful example of speaking in tongues of angels to the inner man. :)--> Ok, its early/late. Someday I’d like to write about the specifics of each lamp and star. And how breaking of the seven seals are like the stages of conception thru gestation thru birth of our mind of Christ. In other words, showing how the development of eternal life may be a lot longer than our itsy bitsy physical lifespans. [This message was edited by sirguessalot on February 23, 2004 at 7:46.]

That is good news, Socks. Explains why non-Judeo-Christian types throughout history have understood things like compassion and love, offer their lives as sacrifices, and even perform miracles and get visions and so forth. God is not a racist, after all! There is a form of love and spirit that is demonstrated by the Christ of the Bible, recognizable to all, regardless of what evil things are done in his name. :)-->

Hi, def59. Thanks for the feedback. I've never been accused of being interestingly wrong before. :D--> OK. You seem to believe the traditional doctrines of The Revelation. And you also seem to be looking for the usual brawl for proving rightness. But are you really prepared to debate all this stuff? Cuz I'm not. Although, I am quite familiar with the greek words, word studies, figures of speech, orientalisms, the history and culture of the seven cities, etc... (and a bunch of other related and non-related stuff that you might not be willing to accept as "proof" anyway). But I'd rather just save us both a lot of trouble and let you "win." ;)--> btw - I believe sin carries its own judgement with it. God is not mocked. There is no escape from his judgement except via atonement. Its eye for an eye, right? Tooth for a tooth. [This message was edited by sirguessalot on February 20, 2004 at 19:15.]

Thanks for reading, JF-C from TN! You've got me pondering where to go next. And thanks, as well, Danny. I'm sure an invisible man like yourself isn't easily fascinated. ;)-->

Thanks, E. Then you must be crazy as we. :D--> Too Gray, Congrats on the tremor. “Pieces falling into place” …reminds me of an earthquake. ;)--> WB, Not confrontational at all. Though, I might have come across that way. We are playing with fire here, right? (with flame for eyes...he he) :)--> Let me try to present a further interpretation of tongues in bite-sized morsels. I will be summarizing and skipping straight past some things in the intro. (but not cuz they I don’t have an understanding of them, but because the intro itself is hugely diverse with meanings, and the words we write are a medium with many limits). Please, let me know if it helps at all (same with anyone else reading, I suppose). It may even help the conversation on the other thread in Doctrinal (for those who are into the Bible stuff, at least). … The Book of Revelation is The Revelation of Jesus Christ. And Christ is the divine-given shape of the INWARD human. Every human being is in the shape of Christ, which is the shape of the creator. It REVEALS The Christ of God, in a mystery, which is where? ...within. The book reveals the divine APPARATUS that each of us already are. Ignorance of our nature is what The Christ restored. The ability to forgive and be forgiven and atone comes with understanding the forces that make good and evil things happen, within and without. The awareness and consciousness of this is what The Christ gives us. Nothing spiritual was broken but knowledge, which is the medium of understanding and awareness and consciousness. Spirit itself is not restored, but AWAKENED from a dead sleep (like an inert seed is). The deeper biology of man is THE inward mystery. This book reveals the specific stages of realizing, understanding, awakening, and developing our divine human potential, via imagery which begins as figurative, but ends up more literal once the limited tongue of man loses its power. Light = awareness/consciouness. Darkness = unawareness/unconsciousness. The book illustrates all the stages of the awakening of our awareness of Christ. The book itself is an apparatus, designed to assist us in this. This is why no word should be added or removed, because the apparatus is complete, and requires all parts to be working to function. If a part is missing, it will not be complete. Angels can't very well move up and down a ladder if a rung or two is missing. … OK, imagine waking up in darkness. This John (Doe) begins his journey of consciousness in the dark (not knowing squat). Which is a state of humility and nakedness. “Be still and know that I am God.” The outward man/outward world has temporarily ceased to exist. And so, its images and sounds cannot interrupt your thoughts. And in this state, our thoughts can get really loud. The first thing we see in this state of darkness is a form that emits a light of its own. Our form is the only source of conciousness we have at first. It is the form of THE Christ, which is within. The shape of the son of man. Spoiler: A funny thing is, we do not realize at first, that we are looking at our true inward selves IN A MIRROR (like a kid who does not have a sense of self yet). Christ within. As if our flesh was invisible, and we see our self as a being of light. What better way is there to look at our true inward self (the unrealized soul)? But a mirror? The light of the form of Christ manifests within our own humble selves, and he is the master teacher of human nature. With flames for eyes, we can even see in the dark and ignite new understanding. And we see that we have 7 unlit “gatherings” of “golden fuel.” In our hands, we have the ability to ignite their function. … And so the revelation continues to deepen. John Doe learns the 7 centers of will that each of us have. Our 7 planes of thinking, and their expressions (angels), What they each do automatically, What challenges each of them faces, What they must each learn and do to be fulfilled, And what is the nature of the reward for it. Each church has an unfulfilled state, and a fulfilled state. Every person's consciouness begins life in Ephesus, which is our will to live. Our first love is the love of life. Our will to ask and seek. Our hunger for understanding. When a baby is born, it is nothing but hungry and needy. If we lose our will to live, we leave our first love, and we give up and stop eating. Our candle of Ephesus is knocked out of its place. But Ephesus is just where conscious life begins. The so-called “advanced” epistle of Ephesus is like Paul rooting them on to win this fight. He is preparing them to begin the journey well. Relationships are next, in Smyrna. The synagogue. When boys discover girls for the first time. And to light the first three lamps and stop, is to sit on the throne of Satan, Pergamos (which is where VPW stopped) Our minds can even come back down and dwell on the steps of Smyrna, at the feet of Pergamos, as the synagogue of Satan. Like a harem. A mob. But there is nothing evil about Pergamos if satan is transformed into an angel of light. And those who dwell in Pergamos want to keep us from moving on to Thyatira. Or even send us there right away (by killing us). And so on. … To light a lamp is to realize that lamp. And when a lamp is lit, it sheds light on other things. Like the throneroom of God which our consciousness can enter. Through a door which is also WITHIN. And most likely, a very small door, based on what Jesus The Christ taught. ;)--> From here, the journey of understanding continues. Just lighting the 7 lamps was not enough. (Here, I’ll summarize even worse) We realize the lamps. We light the lamps. We understand how the lamps work. We use the lamps to follow a path. We see seals that block further understanding. (Each seal corresponds to a lamp – flame melts wax). We become like the 7-eyed lamb to follow him (via sacrifices) (in order to open the seals of further understanding) Seals can only be opened once. You cannot UNknow what you learn. Just as much as you cannot become UNborn. So be prepared. The matrix has you, Neo. There is no turning back. ;)--> Once a seal is opened, we move beyond mere understanding. Part of us has been changed. A new enablement. The expression energy (angel) of that lamp can cause things to happen. Biological realities. Psychological realities. Even Zoologically. And trumpets involve air and sound. This is where breathwork and singing come into play. And once they learn “to blow,” each “angel” is able to learn things like balance and control (or not). Fill the cup of blessing and tip the cup of wrath. And both are necessary at times. … 7 lamps, 7 tongues of fire, 7 seals, 7 trumpets, 7 bowls… But all we have done at this point is learned what the flute IS and how each note “sounds.” We have yet to play music like the master taught (via speaking in tongues of angels), Or teach anyone else how to play music (via interpretation of the tongues of angels). Of course, anyone with creative will can pick up a musical instrument and learn to make it sound good. Even really good, at times. And so wonderful things can happen without "formal" discerning of spirits. But nothing beats a well-written book addressing all 7 angels of the churches. Especially (possibly) the last hand-delivered book of Jesus Christ himself, And with an epilogue hand-delivered by a “dead” apostle. Which is why I have said: without a discernment of the 7 spirits of God (via an understanding of the Revelation of Christ), the apostles' epistles lack the details. In them, they only made reference to the meat they were teaching via A MYSTERY. Sure, wonderful practical overview and summation and specific needs addressed. Accessories. Fillers. Recruitment. Basics. Even invitations to enter Paul’s academy. Milk vs meat. But alone, the epistles have never really seemed to do anything but make common Christianity seem desperate and hypocritical, IMO. :)--> RE: “end times events…” Like the book of Ezekial expresses, spiritual realities exist in a microcosm and macrocosm. Wheels within wheels. The entire human race is developing as one. Just as we develop on our own. One, we can do something about. The other, we can usually only sit back and watch. And when a new wind blows, all blades of grass bend the same direction. :)--> Again, I have just summarized and glossed over a few things here. To stimulate questions. To stir things up a bit for us ex-way. Maybe even to cause a little trouble. :D--> If someone thinks I should not have posted some or all of this stuff, please PT me if you like. I'm open. :)--> [This message was edited by sirguessalot on February 19, 2004 at 0:22.]

Maybe at first. Or for awhile. Or maybe before you ever heard them. But not once you knew to call them things like "beautiful." Then its too late, my dearest E. Cuz its already in the palm of your hand (i.e. "grasped"). :)--> :)--> :)-->

A few have specifically expressed function over form, most likely in reaction to my posts on the importance of form in understanding. And that's cool. :)--> Let us reason together, soapboxes and all. :D--> Maybe ask yourself, how can you seperate the two (in your will to nurture spiritual understanding)? Are not a thing's functions determined and limited to its shape/s? Can something in the shape of a nail drive a nail? Can a 2x4 be driven into a 2x4 like a nail? Are the functions of a form of being within and a form of being without not different? What shape must a thing have in order for it to unite a sperm and an egg? To gestate til birth? To produce milk? One form is an inert (sleeping) seed planted in the ground (so that it dies), that becomes a tree with many branches (once it is born from the ground). The other is form of the earth and the wind and the rain and the streams and the sunlight that cause the thing to grow in the first place. No other forms of energy can or will do this. Father alone is nothing but Adam without Eve. Which one is masculine? Which one is feminine? One helps the alpha meet the omega. One is pure and simple and eternal and white hot divine (like a word). One is diverse and broad and eternal and expansive (like wisdom). Which form is the offspring? Which form is the fatherer? ("mustard seed" that carries the little book - DNA)) Which form is the motherer? ("new clothes" that wrap around) IMO, the role and understanding of gender and sexuality in spiritual matters is from the beginning, and when ignored, we become unaware of the full spectrum of life processes. Which is fine. Babes have no idea what gender their mother is when they are born. All we really want and need is comfort, food and our questions answered, right? An innocent and immature child (which is not bad, but a wonderful reality, right?) poo poos the idea that his own personal comforter ever had sex, cuz girls are icky. He shuns the idea that he was first a seed that came from the same place where he pees. But a sign of spiritual maturity is when we learn the birds and the bees. Or when we will to learn it. When the kids is curious, the kid must be ready to know, right? Ask and ye shall receive. But take your time and think well. The words of the questions are MORE important than the words of the answers. Like making a wish on your birthday. If you ask, you are ready. But the new questions are often more frightening and/or hard to come by than the answers. Function is determined by form, and form determines function. Gender has both a distinct function and a distinct form. Did not Jesus himself ask how one could understand spiritual development if they ignore earthly development? IMO, if we think we need to rely on a book of greek words to understand the roles of sex, conception, birth, maturity and death, we are not much different than the guy Jesus was talking to about being born again. Which is ok, too. We talk about the role and function of the body of Christ, and so are not the form and function of all body parts of the bride and groom intact in heaven? Face it. Sex is happening within us and all around us. The warm winds of spring rock and stimulates the branches of the tree to and fro until... The forms (and functions) of life are above as they are below. No big books required. So step outside and see what forms relate to which roles. This IS the word (logos) of God happening. All of creation that we do see, comes first through a divine template that we cannot see. Its not spiritual things resembles a tree, but that a tree resembles spiritual things. ;)--> Peace, Todd This thread, you guys, are too cool! :)--> I really like the stuff about praying with emotion, raising hands, and addressing "inanimate" objects directly.

Much thanks to all, for taking part and adding to. Especially you, Too Gray, my friend. We’re not merely sharpening iron here, are we? But weaving wisps of smoke in the breeze. ...which only seems to go away. :)--> :)--> :)--> Hi, WB! A grown-up crying like a baby is often a sign of good things to come, IMO. Talk about the joy of getting salt in your smiling teeth! I am glad for you. Sounds like it was a real crossroads coming outta our little Egypt. We could all use a few more of those, I think. :)--> The Book of Revelation is quite the riddle-maze of all of Bibledom, is it not? Its no wonder guys like Martin Luther thought it didn’t belong in the canon. And guys like VP were afraid of getting lost in it. And so I thank you for such a vote of confidence in my understanding of that book. And I hope this does not offend or trouble you, but it would really help me answer you if I understood what it is you think that I understand about it. Privately or publickly...whichever you prefer. …or not. :)--> .......... Believe it or not, much of what I have written here is more literal than it seems. A merely figurative reception is a misunderstanding of my position. I believe certain forms of words are alive and powerful, so I try to be careful with them. I have come to believe that there are divine and ancient mysteries too potent to responsibly just out-and-out reveal. So I’d rather address a specific point of interest or understanding, rather than wander all over the beach, hoping to make sense, causing more confusion and/or anger than anything else. And I just don’t have the will to argue in a court of lawyers right now. I have really only hinted at a few things so far. And though the contributions have been wonderful and enlightening, they haven’t been specific enough for me to go anywhere else with this thread. Probably my fault. But I am a fool who needs to be led. :)--> ....... Do I have a book suggestion? Not really. Most Christian authors I’ve read on the subject are still staring up at the sky, waiting for Christ to return that way. And ironically, these usual standard big-4 “cloud-watching” Christian “end-times” views remind me more of the minds of each of the 4 beasts in the throneroom rather than that of the 7-eyed lamb. And so its not wonder they can’t even break the seals and move on to solving the rest of the mystery. Truly stuck in outer darkness, IMO. And most non-Christian authors will not go near a book that has suffered such a “sacrifice of fools,” though the wisdoms of many of the world’s “unclean” scriptures bears the witness of the spirit of the Revelation itself--a testimony of the truly universal nature of God’s holy Christ, IMO. ;)--> But this, too, is a thought too “leprous” for most. .... How did I learn? I hate to say this with PFAL-Mike being so vocal around here about special “spiritual” knowledge, but I have come to make a few connections via a broad spectrum of Christine disciplines. And there are specific books involved. But a big difference is, is that I believe that what I write is simply MY bread to break, and the bread I myself eat, but not THE bread of life that everyone must eat. And I don’t wanna make bread from stone, either. I just wanna finish my song and move on. I just wanna tell my tale at the crossroads before we part company again. Wise as a serpent, harmless as a dove... ;)--> [This message was edited by sirguessalot on March 11, 2004 at 22:04.]

Can I getta Dynamo hum... :o--> (Sorry for the derail, Roy - I couldn't resist. Just wanna see whose a FZ fan.):)-->

I hear you guys on the complexities of holy spirit and other spiritual things. I see it like this... Much of Bibledom is pressured to find THE path of rightness. So, when we speak of spiritual things, we think of it as some sort of do-or-die thing to be attained. But it is not. Grasping more and more of the complexity of holy spirit is not a requirement. But this does not change the fact that the complexity is there. Like a leaf on a tree. Its not very hard to define, understand it role, or interact with. But our initial understanding does not negate the very complex reality of the leaf. Passionate "leafologists" can spend generations digging deeper and deeper and deeper understanding of a leaf and it complex role. But non-leaf experts can still enjoy fresh air. The complexity is there for those who are interested in understanding and sharing it. The benefits are there for anyone enjoys breathing and beauty and fruit. Even if they think leaves are worthless. :)--> If and when one begins to understand how spiritual things are way more complex than can be measured, the do-or-die mindset may set off alarms. We might think we somehow have to get it all, right now, or else. As if grasping it all is a prerequisite for breathing air. :)--> Poetic language and imagery bridges the gap. This is why representation was important to who we consider the master teacher of pneuma hagion. It saved a lot of time, because it spoke around and alongside complex truths. By using form as truth, rather than facts and details and proof. At least VP was a decent parrot regarding this. He repeated what he had learned about how figures of speech were truer than truth. Though he got stuck in the carnal mire of do-or-die "accuracy" regarding figures themselves. That is why I say I believe the role of the comforter is specifically like the role of a mother (but in a purer sense). We understand a lot of things about motherhood. And motherhood is strikingly different than fatherhood. Alhough, obviously, no one has to consider spirit this way, it does serves to deepen the understanding of sexual roles. Likewise with manifestations and fruit of spirit. They, too, are more directly understood via figurative language. Via visualization - which is the medium of visions and dreams and revelations. Meditation (as the Bible also teaches) involves closing your eyes and visualizing a logos of wisdom. When we think, do we visualize words on a page from a book? The word for "tree" may change from age to age, and from culture to culture, but the SHAPE of a tree (as in an ancient picture) cannot be mistaken. Sight is the first language of man. Speech and alphabets came from pictoral representation. A logos = a form, not just a written "word." Re: Roles... Form more directly reveals function, more than any text in anything heard. And so we may be "off the hook" for becoming book-head geniuses. If we can understand the divine art of story and song, we can understand the form of divine things - without the complexity (of things like PFAL). We have not been doomed to be stuck in a do-or-die quest to increase knowledge. When are learning our first lessons in life, we ask, and we kind of receive an answer. A form of lesson that helps us jump the gap on our own. When we are ready. Understanding the complexity helps and deepens. It is a good thing to be desired. But it is not required. :)--> [This message was edited by sirguessalot on February 14, 2004 at 21:33.]

Hi, Danny. I think that is an interesting observation. I can't speak from specific experience (took PFAL in 92), but it seems to me that once someone starts making a platform of anti-divinity (in any sense of the word) and anti-life (i.e. the dead are dead), the frequency of "good magic" decreases, and the frequency of "bad magic" increases. First, from a point of selfishness (or isolated SELFness). Second, because every living thing "in the garden" becomes devil spirit activity (to our mind). "If Jesus Christ is God, than so are we..." Either strips us of understanding of our own divine form, or delivers from carnal mindedness and seperation from God, depending on how you react to the equation. ... How can you even be born of spirit if you have not been conceived of spirit? Jesus lifted the veil of ignorance regarding human divinity. Our understanding of OURSELVES is what was/is broken, or better - undeveloped. I've heard it called Christ-consciousness. Or conscious awareness of the spirit of Christ in you. NOT a new thing planted within, but a new thing we metamorph into when we renew our... Thought itself is a form of light and relationships with it. Even the critter characters of our DNA emit tiny photon flashes (like candles in the dark). ;)--> (stay on topic....stay on topic.....stay on topic....) (roles...roles...roles...) Light (which God is) moves better through the air than it does through water or stone. Did you know that our brain uses something like 30% of our oxygen intake (and that is via our automatic breath). AND, that our human "mind" begins at our tailbone and is the length of our entire spine? (Not just in our skull). Biologically, what role does air (spirit) play in things like our spinal fluid, and all the light-producing electrical interactions in our nervous system, our blood, our DNA? I even read that breathing is the only bodily function that is both autonomous and a "stick-shift". ;)--> "Wonderfully made," anyone? Ya know, Jesus himself once asked a man how he expected to grasp heavenly things if he did not grasp earthly things. "Learn to breath in holiness" was one of the last things he impressed on his students before he destroyed himself again. When we are born, we go from water-breathing to air-breathing. In a sense, we are caught in a net and eaten (killed). Or, our Christ consciousness moves from 9 months of breathing mom's air in the womb (:)-->), to breathing our own air (but still, going straight to a milk diet, again, from Mom). Born again of pneuma hagion. :)--> [This message was edited by sirguessalot on February 13, 2004 at 15:16.]

:D--> :D--> :D--> Good stuff, Too Gray! And props to ex10 for asking the question in the first place.

A few more thoughts... For a babe to voice a need (and we are all still babes), is to express the need via sound, but without words. Crying. Pleading. Shouting for attention. Laughing. Giggling. Fussing. This is us speaking with the tongue of the angel of the church of Ephesus. We speak to our needs. Our foundational will to live. When we lose our will to live, our lamp is snuffed and we die. Speaking in tongues of angels is expressing the 7 forces of our divine nature, in some form or fashion or combination. Via thought, motion, sound, art, etc.... The process of creative expression is speaking in tongues. Poetry. Songwriting. Painting. Inventing a bigger and better automobile engine. Doodling on a notepad while yer talking on the phone = a form of speaking in tongues of an angel. Playing a guitar in a studio brainstorming jam session is a form of speaking in tongues. There will be an answer to "the Ephesians." It may not always have a clear meaning at first, but there will be an answer that has a life of its own. And the answer is reflection of the question. ... An angel IS the medium of expression (like a flame). The church is the device of expression (like a lamp of oil). Church is a specific gathering of energy. And so the book of rev says we have 7 such genos of expressions within our make-up. Which is also the make-up of Christ. And we are already Christ, unborn, unrealized. A riddle in a mirror - reveals the divine apparatus that is us, which was forgotten in Eden (not broken). The revelation of the inward man. ... But when the tongues are NOT being spoken, each church also produces consequences. The manifestation of discerning of spirits includes the ability to see on these wavelengths. To be able to diagnose the harmonies and disharmonies of a situation or person or event, via the character and form of the 7 angels of the 7 churches. How else can you trigger a miracle or plant a seed for healing if you do not even know what forces the universe exists on?

I agree a bit with something WTH said a while back. VP's ways will never go away. He himself may not be a giant of Christian history, but a lesser fellow of the greater movement, which has certainly changed modern Christianity. PFAL may someday be canonized in some Christian sub-section of bookstores. NOTHING ever truly goes away. And enough people were fully baptized in TWI and cults and strip mall, camp-out ministries of its kin, that the exponential multiplication is probably going to be off the charts. I see it in all the other Christian forums I visit, too. Its pretty wierd. I even saw this cable show where this ole catholic scholar type guy was teaching biblical research principles and such. Being an PFAL grad, I know what I heard. It was like this guy was teaching from PFAL. Same verses. Same principles. Everything. It was kinda cute. :)-->

And you may be right about some of that, Def. Some apostles might not have made it "all the way." But you may be wrong at the same time. A lot of men claimed to be the apostles. And were killed for it. There was no photography, TV, or fingerprinting. And the apostle and their imposters travelled a lot. So, who knows? Right? ;)--> And Buddha's faith was NOT based on himself. You might wanna read a bit more about it. Jesus did. Buddha had a lot to say about compassion that no one in the Bible really understood yet. Jesus had to have learned from him, being the one who knew and experienced everything mankind had learned. Would an eternal king do any less? (Maybe another thread though? This one is about the role of pneuma hagion, not "who was holier than whom?") But the role of holy breath was also understood by Buddha (not to mention an uncountable cast of other non-Jewish saints. The A-brahamic art of breathing was lost to the children of Abraham's flesh, but preserved by those who perfected the patriarch's spiritual masteries and what-not. And the idea was probably lost in Israels bondage. But this is how Jesus could know who did the works of Abraham...by the role (or lack thereof) of the art of pneuma hagion in their doctrine and practice. One thing Jesus did, was restore the teachings of Abraham, which were hidden in the east. And so he literally taught people how to be children (students) of Abraham again. The inventor of discoverer of a method is considered the father, and the method his child. ... btw - Did you know that most of us only utilize less than half of our full breathing capability? And it is this diverse way of pneuma hagion and meditation that Jesus taught his students, in order to cleanse their flesh and blood and clear the way for holy thoughts? There is even ways of breathing that stimulate compassion. "Meet him in the air," he said? I lost track of all the implications. Talk about the role of holy spirit?!? Did not the twelve and their companions sat for nine days and meditated and focused their breathing, until enlightenment came? Just like the master taught them? Ignore it all you want, but the form and manner in which Jesus taught his students is unmistakable. The comforter comes like air. It is pure (hagion) because God designed the human form. And so it is a physiological reality. And you can do it while naked (barefoot) - which makes it holy as well. Heck, I just got rid of an allergy tha has made me want to tear my skin off at times. peace :)--> [This message was edited by sirguessalot on February 12, 2004 at 17:04.]

Yes, we must learn to make a way for the kings of the east to arrive. Like Magi. But to us in the west, a plague of amphibians are in the way. selah ;)--> [This message was edited by sirguessalot on February 12, 2004 at 16:23.]

And yeah, "holiness" of spirit is an issue. Disharmonies cause devils, though the devils are of God, and doing what devils are supposed to do. Wise as serpents, harmless as doves, means we gotta understand snakes. They are NOT evil. They are just snakes and serve a role of their own. The unlearned stumbles across a snake and gets bit and calls it an evil thing made by God. The wise know how to walk without stirring them up. They can even summon them and speak with them. :)-->

I agree. Some do claim that. But some also do. Those who do, are probably better off not saying anything about it. Just like Jesus taught his students - "keep yer mouth shut about what you saw!" Some people do not want to deal with it. At the end of the book of Revelation, John was speaking to an apostle. Jesus spoke to men in white during his life. Paul spoke to Jesus. Yes, everything can be twisted. But possibilities are not impossibilities. Just because the capacity for deception is there, should one refuse to entertain an angel? And what about "angels unaware?" IMO, the apostles (and others) have been active in human affairs for two millenia, if not longer. VPWs' faith was base largely on the dark side of death. It was still his enemy. And do he was a true enemy of the spirit. But I am not talking about VP or Elvis. I am talking about Adam, Eve, Abraham, Melchizadek, Moses, Solomon, etc... Not to mention those whose names or race did not make into scripture. But whose names are in the book of life (again, I do not speak figuratively here). :)-->

I am saying that the apostles vanished in the air, just like Jesus did. No bodies left behind. No pain of death of natural causes. One of the "gifts" of apostleship was to know when you were going to die. And be able to make your flesh just evaporate. After a lifetime of discipline, of course. Even Moses did this. And his body was not found. Same with Buddha. And other OT figures, in and out of the Bible. These are the mysterious MIW "men in white" that keep popping up. They can become light forms, but not physical forms. The son of man had not learned that one...yet. Difference is, Jesus was the first to learn how to come back from it. He did not have to be born again in the flesh. I guess it is a role of the gift of holy spirit. The ability to escape the wrath that every natural man must face. That ole 4th horsemen of the apocolypse. :)-->

Freaky, I think there is a big difference between tongues of angels and tongues of men. One is in our mouth and does not produce a reliable language. The others are within our being, and their language is always perfect and divine (when spoken). If the tongue burns, there will be smoke. And if there is smoke, the divine will smell it. Without fail. Yes, the tongues of angels can manifest in the tongues of men - but in an understandable language. It just depends on what yer talking about and why. And I think interpretation is an interpretion of the meaning of the tongues of angels themselves. What we were taught in PFAL was the tongues of men, although the tongues of angels are stimulated by it. We were not taught this part very well, IMO. Cuz VPW didn't really know about it. Like I said, the Book of Revelation reveals how they work. And that book was above his head. Likewise with interpretation of tongues. Most of what we were taught in PFAL about interpretation was an elementary form of prophecying. General value statements. But with regards to the holy spirit speaking comfort back to you.... That is wonderful! "goo goo ga ga" cuz were hungry or uncomfortable or bored, and a soothing voice calms us. We understand the intent of the voice more than the words. The intent and subject and form of your comfort is the kind of angelic tongue. Genos of tongues. (genos = after their own kind). There are only 7 tongues, but with evolution, there is no end to the number of songs written with them, or the kinds of instruments they are played on. :)--> I hope I was clear. Roy, I like it when you think out loud. Yer a lot of fun.

Hi all. Yeah, I'll try to explain. I know I was not posting anything new to religions. Though it may be new to innies and some ex-TWI. Yes, some male doves may brood. But that is a feminine role, even for a dove. Besides, the creator is not a dove, but in the form of humanity. And human men cannot brood over eggs in the womb. "There will be no male or female" is AFTER the restoration of the unity. God is a father. The spirit is a mother. Both are eternal. We are gods, and we are born of spirit. Angels do not marry because they already are. Both sexes. Dual gender. We have what is commonly referred to as a left and right side of our mind. Even though some claim that one part is superior to the other (true half-wits!). :)--> What does spirit look like? It is the space between. It is like air. Thanks for the book suggestion, Waterbuffalo. What students vanished into thin air? The apostles, of course. Just like their master taught them. What? Did he pick them and teach them they still failed or something? CW, there was actually two points in the statement. No figures of speech. 1) the escape of wrath = escape of the pain of physical death. But first... 2) the death of the soul is a literal reality that has to happen for birth. Like a candle being blown out and relit a second later. Jesus taught about a REAL transformation. Not an immediate, "undetectable by the senses" metamorphosis. But once the labor pains begins, it cannot be stopped. "Meeting him in the air" is interesting. Air = spirit. Spirit = air. The space between. Imagine, if all you could see was the "air" in your body. And the light of the electricity in the air... :)--> But the role of spirit is feminine. Heavenly. Because the first man is of the earth. Like a divine seed planted in the form of God.

Lets just wait and see what happens when everyone wakes up and reads it.

There have been a lot of good conversations here at the GSC about Christ and holy spirit and manifestations and such….terms we are all familiar with, being exTWI. Terms that are obviously still quite important to a large portion of souls who hang and read and write here. And I have found myself the will and a window of time, and so I cast out this thread of my own to see who lands in it. I am still very interested in these subjects, and have come to consider myself somewhat of a spiritually experienced person. In other words, I believe in and have experienced the arts of meditation, fasting, purification, visions, dreams, signs and such. Just like people in the Bible have been teaching and practicing for thousands of years. But I am no fool. I know I am most likely an initiate of the lowest order (whatever the hell that means). And like the title states, this thread is an interpretation of tongues. Nothing more, nothing less. I know I am making this $h!t up as I go along. Just like the rest of us. So I’ll try not to ramble too much, or for too long. (Though its not like yer sitting there waiting for me to finish talking, or anything.) Stop now and go read something else, I you want. I've already written it. ;)--> But I’d like to see what conversations might shake loose. And I’m open to just about anything after PFAL (and a few other stupid things). :)--> Ultimately, I think one of the worst things we inherited from our “father in the word” (and a lot of his kin) is the dread and distrust of such a looooooong list of genuine divine expression. A long line of fig leafs. All of God's critters have become quite a pantheon of devils and demons. And ironically, most, if not all of these taboo forms of expression were the bread and butter of the very cast of the book so many claim to revere. The ways holy spirit manifests itself are way more diverse than control-freaks like VPW would ever allow. And so I ask myself, how could we possibly expected to have manifested divine power if we mock most all of the things our scriptural idols themselves practiced and promoted? We write them off as some “foreign thing,” when we ourselves are becoming about as foreign and invasive to this earth as it gets. IMO, in TWI, we were more like kids pretending to be superheroes, jumping on the bed with bath-towels for capes and brooms for swords. Some of us even fell off and bumped our head. But too few of us ever really stepped outside (doctrinally). I bet at least a few have flown off somewhere else, by now, though. ;)--> I think a big part of our problems with the “manifestions” came from VPWs twisting of the order of the manifestations. Why put 8 for 1, 9 for 2, 6 for 3, 2 for 4, 1 for 5, 7 for 6, 3 for 7, 5 for 8, and 4 for 9? Was Paul an apostle or not? Its no wonder VP got bit in the face and died. If he moved the first manifestation to fifth place, how could he be nourished from the first spiritual fruit (love)? His lamp got knocked out of its place and he died carnal. And so no wonder he thought Ephesus was the pinnacle. He could never surpasse it. In the REV, it’s the first church. (more on that later, I guess.) Anyway…. I know, I know. Does it really matter which order they are? I say yes. The order in which the manifold grace of God manifests itself is important, for those interested, at least. Did God plant a diverse system in Eden or not? Does a tree grow and bear fruit before it is even planted? In Genesis, if light was not expressed until the fifth day, and the events of the eighth day were the first to happen… kaplooey! Creation fails cuz it tries to begin with tongues of Babylon! :)--> My point is, that the order in which the manifestations work together is important. Just as the order in which we understand them is. Oneness comes before twoness. Twoness comes before threeness. Threeness comes before fourness. And so on… Re: fruit of the spirit First of all, it seems to me that fruit are too often used as nothing more than proof of worth. Typical of some bible-toting monkeys. They would rather throw fruit than eat it. ;)--> But last I looked, fruit was nourishment. Vitamins, minerals, herbs, etc… And it has seed for duplicating itself within itself (How convenient). And they also produce good fertile poop. Love and let love, anyone? We EAT fruit, not just use it to prove who is right or wrong. There is no mistake when we eat a bad apple, right? (PFAL) We get the runs. ;)--> And one can always learn to spot worms. When we partake in love, we are nourished with word of wisdom. When we partake in joy, we are nourished with word of knowledge. When we partake in peace, we are nourished with faith. When we partake in longsuffering, we give gifts of healing. When we partake in gentleness, we ease off a miracles like fireworks. When we partake in goodness, we weigh a fruit for its value, and declare it. When we partake in faith, we can discern the details of it. When we partake in meekness, we are flexible to the tongues of others. When we partake in temperence, we are able to fashion an interpretation of these tongues. …whew! Like I think I just kinda did. Fruit is NOT the result, it’s the food. It is a complete spiritual diet. Against such, there is no law, right? Duuude! Sweet! :)--> And there is a difference between eating fruit someone else gave you and planting your own and sharing it (or even stealing it out of another’s basket – sound familiar? – I am talking about VPs vampiric sexual and control issues, not his cut-and-paste revelation.). ;)--> Re: manifestations. I know Roy will like this. Like me, he likes picture/number games. I have come to think of it as doodling in the sand. Old school “kid” stuff. :)--> To me, the manifestations also really seem to line up well with the days of Genesis. Light – the logos of wisdom. Shape. Visual form. A word. “What is that?” Distinction – the logos of knowledge. Form of sound. A word. An answer. Seed – faith – a paradigm of conviction. A conclusion that has yet to bear out. Time/Seasons/4 corners – gifts of healing (when and where we plant the seed). Diversity – working of miracles (chain reactions of energy – the biosphere) Man - inheritance – prophecy (a statement of value), unpicked fruit. Names – discerning of spirits (all 7 of them). Distinguishing fruit. 1 drives 2, which drives 3, which drive 4, etc… Though we can know “in part” as well. We can start driving outward from 8, but all we get is a hollow version of 8 and 9. Piecing it together without a map (like he Corinthians). Clouds without rain. 7 days vs 9 manifestations? The 8th day of God probably came and went already, too. As did the 9th. Maybe even the 10th. A day of God is about a 1000 years, right? But a night also comes before the day (so it sneaks up on ya) = about 2k years. Anyway, Tongues of angels (8) and the interpretation of them (9) were the foundational manifestations of PFAL world. But how did the last two manifestations become the first two? Someone did not take off their shoes around the burning bush, and so snapped a few twigs with their man-made shoes. ;)--> Regardless…if tongues are like music, then interpretation is like the words to the song. To speak in tongues of angels, is to able to speak on all the wavelengths of the hearer. Like the apostles did on Pentecost. Like those gentiles did for Peter. It is to communicate distinctly in all 7 “notes” of creation. Not just a kid banging around on all the guitar strings making noise (like PFALs version of tongues), but able to play in time, in tune and creatively. Tongues of angels is an art form. But to interpret tongues, is to try to explain what all this means. Like Peter did on Pentecost. And like all scripture tries to do. Kinda like I am doing now. Which is why I called this thread – an interpretation of the tongus of angels. ;)--> The seven “days of the lord” in Genesis is also an interpretation of tongues. All of creation was expressed (angels) on the seven original planes/messengers/angels/expressions of the divine. … IMO, the Book of Revelation has got to be THE master interpretation of the tongues of angels. The most enlightening book of the Bible. And is hiding in plain site. I think Christ is a genius! The book of rev is the “through a glass darkly” the Corinthians could not get to without eating the fruit of love. It is the prize of the Ephesians (sports fans – btw – the years the epistles were written, Ephesus had won Olympic garlands in the arts. Yeah, flute playing and stuff. And you thought Laker fans were crazy? Imagine a city of of intellectual artsy fartsy types partying with their new divine victor for a month for having out-musicked Phillipi…or something like that. All the while, violent & commercial gladiatorial sports had already infiltrated a once-peaceful brotherly international competition.) Hey, sounds like us! :)--> Hollywood award parties and overpaid pro athlete superstar work-horses. The Book of Rev is the mystery that Paul would NOT explain in his epistles. The same one that blinded him when he got a bright logos of wisdom. Wandered around confused as hell for awhile until his questions about it got answered with a logos of knowledge. And so on. The book of revelation expresses all 7 tongues of angels. Like as of fire. Like a rushing mighty wind. Lamps and trumpets. Fire and wind. Which is why the book is more properly called – the Revelation OF Jesus Christ. This book, more than any other, reveals Christ to us. Just like we always wanted. It sums up an entire century of apostolic understanding and the completion of the age that just passed. Don't get me wrong. The gospels and epistles are awesome! Even more so, in light of the Book of Rev. The son of man had just evolved, and whomever John was, was in the spirit on the dawning of that day. Then the age of the fish began. And the apostles have finally been the fishers of men that Jesus told them they would be. Casting interpretations of tongues like nets all over the world ever since. Problem is – the apostles eat the fish once they are caught. Talk about a transformation by death! Ouch! Getting eternal that way would seem more like meeting the angel of death/grim reaper. :)--> Now, I hope I spoke plainly enough this time. I know I can write pretty flowery at times. Comes with the deal of me, I suppose. I can always clarify, but only if someone asks. These subjects have been tossed around here since the place opened its doors. And so I thought I could offer some weird lights to some familiar concepts. I guess its the least I could do after all the GSC has done for me. Peace, Todd --- A few more related threads: ~ a postcard to the exiles and vagabonds of TWI ~ an appeal to the Christians who want to leave the GSC... ~ A conversation on Pat S's thread: Good spirits and bad spirits