Keith

I still haven't decided what I think about this, but I have to agree that fact it is Oral Roberts and remembering the money and being called home bit, has me skeptical. I would be less concerned if it had come from Copeland. He did hit the nail on the head when he said that the Berlin wall would come down and U.S.S.R. would disolve one year before it happened. In response to one persons statment about, anything for the almighty buck. The Copelands have never impressed me that way. Their free salvation package is extensive and free. They sent free copies of this to each a great many churches. I've even seen them give free teachings away when they say they need money. (And the teaching DO NOT have anything to do with sending money.) I can't speak for the other churches that might be selling this though.

"Interesting. I'm reading it now and haven't formed an opinion yet." To be honest I haven't formed an opinion on it yet either. I gather that this is not supposed to be the same thing as 9/11. Something in the future. But the one point that they make in all of this is that we are not really preaching the gospel and that the time to do so is short. I always remember something that Gloria Copeland once said. In quotes but paraphrased as best I can remember it. "I believe the time is short and Jesus is coming in my life. But even if I'm wrong, this is still the only life I have." I was able to watch this earlier than on TV, because Kenneth Copeland Ministries sent a free DVD to those churches who he conciders partners with him. [edited to remove some glaring mistakes, may be others]

Has anyone been following Kenneth Copeland this week? If so I would be curious what people thought about it. The short for those who haven't followed is that Oral Roberts has seen a vision, of a cloud of smoke, vapor, and blood coming down and hovering over New York, then being dispersed over the US then out over the world. There was also to be a huge sound with this this. And when it happens everyone is to be able to see it. With the vision, He says that God told him, that God's people were not ready for the second coming and that we should be preaching the gospel more. There is much more with this, and is viewable on the Copeland's website as well.

Sky4it, I'm sorry if my answer bothered you. I thought that the first part of my answer applied to what you were asking. Yes the TWI did apply this statment to imply that the they had a corner on the word. John Lynns letter is worded to do the same. The last part of my answer was to show a context that that phrase might be approprate, and I have to confess, I was also "preaching" a bit. TWI destroyed the concept of the one body in Christ. Something that is very, very important from what I read in Ephesian and it is a concept that is very dear to my heart, I try to share it with people in someway as much as I can, and TWI's "as it has not been taught since the first century did much to destroy the one body. That is why I mentioned the second part. Please forgive me if my "preaching" offended or bothered you. Anyway a direct simple answer to your question about the use "as it has not be taught since the first century." as it is stated in Johns letter would mean run and it fact this particular doctrine to me means "Run as fast as you can."

It's a slow day at work so I thought I’d drop in to see if their was a response to my post. I assume you are referring to the phrase “as it has not been taught since the first century.” This would be a phrase that I would say “run” to, in this case, because it implies “we have or had truth that others do not.” If the person used the same phrase and said, “God is calling His people back. Churches around the world are rediscovering God’s grace and mercy, and throughout all of Churches of the world, the word is being taught as it has not been taught since the first century.” I would not say run, because I believe that this is happening through out the world and it has been going on for longer than TWI has been in existence and it involves all Christians, not any one group.

It’s been interesting to follow this thread. The shift has gone from TWI offshoots to believing = receiving. I’m not surprised as this has become a very convoluted subject. I coordinate a group that might be called an offshoot., but I don’t worship VPW. We do home fellowships, but I have nothing against a building. I teach believing and receiving, but not believing = receiving because, as one person stated, it is flawed. The way we receive from God what he has promised is to believe Him, but we cannot believe to receive a car or specific job, unless God has specifically promised us that specific job or car. We believe God’s promises, not in order receive things. Back to subject… there are so many different “offshoots” that it would be hard to count them. My guess is that the number is way over the 400 or so mentioned earlier. But I think many of them would be offended to be called an “offshoot.” I know I am, but I have to admit that most of the people who come are ex-twi – so since the shoe fits I guess we have to wear it. Here would be my advice for avoiding trouble with offshoots. If they use quotes from VPW instead of scripture – Run If they try to control your life – Run If they have to sell you something, or ask that you take a class before you can be a part of them or contribute to them – Run (note, I’m not saying they don’t have classes, but you should never be looked down on for not taking them) If they charge for their classes, be suspicious and prepared to run If they say they have a corner on the truth, or that TWI used to – run If they spend their time downgrading other groups and talking about how stupid they are or how much better they are than these other groups – Run. If they are unwilling to bring in teachers, books or idea from outside their group or from groups that were also ex-twi – run. This is longer than I would have liked, but I only drop in once in a while and I guess it bottles up inside me.

To some of those given I add.... Kenneth Copeland Kenneth Hagin Sr. and Jr. Jesse Duplantis Jerry Saville Charles and Frances Hunter Joyce Meyer I still like to listen to Wayne Clapp, and the others from CFF.

I'm here in Bloomington. It would be fun.

"It's a "sermon we can see". I often think of Jesus and the ol' loaves and fishes. The Samritan helping the guy who got attacked. Hungry peop's, gotta eat." We've gone off topic, but.... What set this idea for me was an often overlooked statement. When Judas left to betray Jesus it says that some of the disciples thought he was going to give money to the poor. Why would they have thought that if it was not something that Jesus told Judas to do on a regular baisis.

Thanks for your advice. We are finically involved with several charities locally. We also give item personally, I, for some reason, hadn't thought about asking the people who attend our fellowship to donate also.

I run what I guess would be called a TWI offshot, but I would hate to call it that. Still, if the shoe fits...right? Do we have any newbies? No not really. And I admit that is our fault. For a while we were tied in to hard to TWI teachings. Many of us had that hold over "we are better than everyone else" attitude. But I am fighting that with every thing I can muster. The only problem is that I sometimes find I am having to fight it in my own life as well. We are not better and we do not have more or better "Word of God" than anyone else and in many cases we were wrong. We were to work together with all Christians and we were and are just to stupied and bull headed to do it. Sometimes we have been unloving. That is a fight all of us have to deal with ourselves. I can't make you loving, I can only work to be more loving my self. I can think of lots of times when I messed up badly. Some recently, some a while ago. Sometimes we even "played at church." I'm sure you know what I mean by that. All of us have been guilty of that at some time or other. I do know that while we have not grown much locally, we have through the internet. No I don't have any newbies close by, but we work with new Christians in Poland, India, Kenya and other countries and giving them finacial aid when we can, no strings attached We send them teachings free of charge and I hope that we are blessing them. These are groups with no TWI links, they are just our brothers in Christ. We have some difference in understanding, but that doesn't make them any less our brothers. Locally we have spent much time trying to heal. To re-examine the teachings we had while with TWI and from other offshoots. I pray that we do this with God's guidence and not our own bias. Yes I would like to grow. It has been too easy to be comfortable with the small group that we have. But I also have to admit that I would like to see this "we are better than you and have the answers" attitude gone among our people before we grow and it is this attitude that I believe has done more to keep us from growing than any other. Please keep us in your prayers.

Believe it not the best advice I heard while in TWI came from VPW. He once told me. "Son, don't take anyone word for what the word says, not even mine." I've applied it since then.

I agree they should have done the right thing in the first place. I am a member of a church board and I know their legal limitations. Still, I am a firm believer in doing what is right. In a CPR/AED course I had it explained this way. If a child was drowning in a posted ?no swimming, violators to be fined.? Would you break the law and risk the fine to save the child?s life? Of course you would. This is the position that TWI has placed themselves in, they are just making the wrong decision. To answer someone else?s question. I don?t think there is anything that would prevent them from returning the farm and land back to Mrs. Wierwille and/or her family?.except of course that that would mean giving up almost all the land TWI owns and with the improvements they have made, the property tax bills might force them to give it up again.

What I am going to post is not going to be popular. But TWI has a point though most wouldn't see it that way. I don't like the tone of their letter and the comment about inheritence was low and uncalled for. But they may be right,to a point, that they cannot use Ministry assets to care for Mrs. Weirwille. Here is why. A non-profit group may not use it's monies to benift board members or their faimlies. They may hire them and pay them a wage, and even give them housing as long as they are not paid for their work on the board. In other words they may hire someone on the board as a teacher, but that must be seperate from their duties as president of the board. The same guidelines apply to their families. This is IRS law as I understand it. Mrs. Weirwille may (I repeat may,) fall into this catagory. If so it really is very difficult for them to help, short of taking a special collection up for her and this collection would not be tax exempt for the those who gave. I should point out though, that since VPW is dead and she was never, as far as I know, a member of the board of trustees, this rule may not apply to her. If Mrs Weirwille does not fall into that catagory they can help by giving money. But in most cases the government frowns on them doing so unless the person has no other means available, or these funds are not enough to provide the needed care. Now that I've said all of this, before I get flamed I want to repeat that I found the letter insulting to all involved. I will also say, that since her care was VPW's wish they should have set up a means via insurance and other means long before this. That they are not easly able to provide this care for her indicates a lack of planning ahead on their part.

I play guitar, bass (guitar), and trumpet. I attempt mandolin and Banjo and a little piano. Tuning on the mandolin is not that strange. The bass strings on the guitar top to bottom are E, A, D, G. The strings on a mandolin are (top to bottom) G, D, A, E. A mandolin is just the bass strings on a guitar upside down. I find the mandolin easy to play, but it would be easier if my fingers were not so pudgy.

Cindy, Congratulations! make it so Keith