Keith

I like what your saying too. Faith is really more a relationship with God. Something that TWI left out. It's also a noun and not a verb, but that's another issue. Thanks for the links to the websites, but the issue is that I work a County run Public library at a public desk. While we are alowed to visit forums durring slow times I have to watch what I have up on the screen..."speration of church and state stuff. :( " I'm even alowed to shop on line if we are really slow. I'm looking forward to seeing where this discussion goes.

I don't really see it as works. The allowance allegory is just the best I could come up with. I think it falls under the phrase "Abraham believed God and it was counted unto for rightousness." The question is "is trusting God works or an expression of a relationship?" We aquire God's promises by beliving or trusting that God will fulfill His promises. Sometimes it takes a while for us to get to the point that we trust Him. It's easier in some areas than others and those areas we have difficulty with vary with individuals. I might recommend the series by Derek Prince called the Roman Pilgrimage. It's a study of the first eight chapters of Romans and help me understand some things better. Though I have to admit I have trouble restating them. Especially since I can't call up the one line bibles easily while at work. Most of the time I'm trying to quote from memory. I remember the words pretty well, but I've always had trouble memorising the chapter and verse. (is that a confession of negtive believing :) ) The reason I see this law as a constant is because God is a God of love and a just God and his nature doesn't change. I guess a sinner could believe that Christ accomplished our legal deliverace from sickness on the cross and believe that he would see this healing manifested in his life, but in order to do that I guess he wouldn't be a sinner any more... would he? I still think you hit the nail on the head about what I was trying to say. It's not that we believe for, it's that we trust God who makes the promise. By the way the Derek Prince Roman Pilgrimage has little to do with this discussion, but I've really been challenged by it to re-examine what I believe. Something I should always be doing. The same has happened here and it has been an enjoyable experience.

I would say that it is our fault that we can't bring things to pass. We are in control of our own minds and heart. I would also say that you are bringing things in that are not covered by the "law of believing" as I'm defining it.(see my last post) Unless God promises that you can levitate a table you are not going to be able to do it. It doesn't matter if you see a profit in levitating it or not. If God didn't promise it really does fall under the law. Again, I would say that if you are looking for "the law of believing" as TWI taught it, you will not find it in the bible. So using what they say to define "the law of believing" won't really hold up because it is based on a flawed information. I see "the law of believing" more like my law regarding allowance for my son. If you do the chores you get your allowance. God says, If you believe and trust in me, not doubting my word or ability, I will bring my promises to pass in your life." This is a constant in the way God operates. If we do it, we will get the results. It starts with our believing his word regarding salvation, the result is that we are born again. Not really hard to do. The same goes for healing. As I understand I Peter 2:24 God has already healed us. He has done everything he is going to do in regards to our healing on the cross. But we aquire it by faith, the same way we aquired our salvation. It's seems harder to do because there are physical manifestations that seem to contradict it. In addition people are aways talking about their ills. Look at all the news about H1N1 right now. You can't turn on the new without hearing about it, and that information puts doubt in our heart regarding our health and safty. However, if we control our hearts and minds and put our trust in God I believe that we will get the results every time. Ah!!! a quick re-read of your post and I've spotted our communication problem. You are looking for a law of believing that works for saint and sinner alike. As I've defined the law of beliving the only thing a sinner can believe to receive is salvation. Once he's done that he is part of the Kingdom of God and he is under the laws of the realm. "the law of believing, again not as TWI defined it, but as trusting God to bring about his promise, is a law of the realm.

With the exception of your interpatation of I Peter 2:24, I agree with almost everything you said. Though I personally don't feel the Copelands teach that passage as "blank check" while I didn't really say it below, the law of believing, is really exactly what you say "It looks to me like He's not tipping us off to some secret power hitherto unknown - but merely conveying what our attitude should be in PRAYER TOWARD GOD - since He is the one who actually "moves the mountain" - [noting verse 22 "have faith IN GOD"]." I see it as the law of believing or trusting God. Even when we minister healing the power comes from God via the spirit, not us. And your last point, if it were possible, I would agree with you 150%. From what you said here, I think really we are in agreement. I've sort of redifined "the law of believing" as "have faith IN God and His ability to carry out his promises and HE will bring them to pass."

The "law of believing" as TWI taught it in PFAL is not Biblical or a constant. But I'm not sure what you are getting at regarding rationalization. The law of believing without doubting can be a constant, but our ability to believe without doubting is not a constant. We are human and doubt. That doesn't make the law wrong, just us. It's like flying. The laws of lift were always there, since the beginning of creation, but we didn't know them and only applied them by accident. Then as we learned the laws of lift we were able to begin to design wings and motors to make planes that would fly. The history of flight is filled with our mistakes, however that doesn't negate the law, the problem was on our end. Once we learn to make the proper designs for our planes we achive success more often. But if something should go wrong, an engine failure, or broken wing, the law of lift is still a constant, but we are unfortunately no longer applying it and gravity (also a law and a constant) takes over and we crash. Just because we don't see results 100% or even 10% of the time doesn't mean the law is wrong, just our application of it. I think I muddied the waters with my talk of God's grace and intercession. They are in no way part of the law of believing. I think of them more as rescue attempts when our doubt causes our believing to fail and we are heading for a crash and burn. It"s more of a reason why we sometimes get results dispite ourselves. Does that make any sense at all? If you are looking for physical proof of the "Law of believing" so that you can apply it 100% I don't think you will find it. We are too inconstant in our trust of God to get it to work every time. Maybe after the return. But we get better the closer our relationship with God. I'm sorry to say I've let that relationship slip a long way since the healing of my leg. I need to work on that.

Sorry for the double post. I just went back are read post #8. And he is right. TWI did condemn people for their lack of believing and what should have happened is what happens in many other churchs. People ban together to pray for you. They try to work with you to meet your needs while you are sick, or out of a job. No one should be condemned for lack of belief. Instead they should be reminded that God loves them and they have been made rightous in Christ no matter what is going on in their lives and they should know that the church is here to help them. Just listened to a series by Derek Prince called the Roman Pilgimage. While most of it doesn't relate here and I'm sort of stretching his point. As he taught about the purpose of the law, it was to point out our sin and our lack of ability(which is basicly what Romans 7 talks about) When we put ourselves under a law we condemn ourselves to failure. We do the same when we talk about the law of believing. If we try to focus on the law, our fleshly ability to believe we will fail, instead we should focus on the mercy and grace that came to us through Christ on the cross and God's love for us. As I've typed and answered questions I find myself changing as my understanding changes. Perhaps that is why some of what I say seems to contradict. My understanding is changing as I type. Ultimatly we trust God that he will bring about what He says. No more and no less. If He tells us we can move a mountian, we can as long as we trust that God will provide the power to do what He says we can do. As I said earlier, the real law of believing is just this...trust and have confidence in God. But, don't make it law, just develop the relationship.

Presonally, I agree about the story of the African water-waters, I find it incredulous as well. But I think it makes a point about the differing needs. We sometimes meet those needs in the physical and no longer really need to apply the spiritual as much. Sometimes I think God guided us in modern medicine because of lack of trust in him. I don't really find the issue hit or miss. You either believe and trust God or you don't. It becomes hit our miss not because of God's promises but because of our lack of belief and His grace and mercy. We are trained from birth in the sciences and the scientific method. That affects our belief. Listening to our symptoms, looking at our bank books and bills also affects our belief. God's grace comes in to play in these cases and/or interssion by other Christians. We try to complicate too much. That is why children and the superstious often do better at receiving than we do. As we grow up, we are taught to doubt anything spiritual. The sad thing is, I think we educate it out of our kids. In regards to your different understanding of the "by his stripes we are healed" in I Peter, perhaps that's why you don't see it happening in your life. I heard a quote by Gloria Copeland once, "If you don't believe in healing, don't worry about, you won't be bothered with it." But if all healing comes from God does it matter in the end if it comes through modern medicine or via a miracle? And I do believe that that verse includes spritual healing as well as physical. None of us can look at the heart of a person and tell whether they are really believing and trusting God or not. Sometimes, I have trouble looking at my own heart and telling what I'm thinking. I say the words, and then talk to my self about how bad I feel. Mark 11:23 For verily I say unto you, That whosoever shall say unto this mountain, Be thou removed, and be thou cast into the sea; and shall not doubt in his heart, but shall believe that those things which he saith shall come to pass; he shall have whatsoever he saith. This verse is basicly a statment of the only law of believing. The word believe is "pistis" or its verb form, often translated faith. It includes the idea of faithfully trusting in and having confidence in. When we doubt, we aren't having confidence so we aren't believing. TWI and almost every other group trys to complicate it. We develope that trust through a relationship with God, just like you develope trust with anyone.

I'm not sure that there are that many promises to believe certainly not as many as many would have you think. God has said, "by his stripes we are healed" so I can believe that statment. But I must remember that I am putting my faith in the one who made the promise; that He will stand behind it and not in my ability to believe His promise. We are also promised that God will meet our physical needs. It doesn't say wants. He will give us wisdom etc. He doesn't promise us a new car, a new house, a new boat etc. The fact is that many of God's promises are broad in nature. Salvation is the only completly specific one. Where people get confused is that different people have different needs, and different people have different ideas of what they need. To furture confuse the issue. People also think they need something that they don't really need and would be a distaction from there relationship with God if they had it. I like the person who talked about self preservation fears. Some fears make sense and it is stupid to ignore them unless specificly directed to by God. But I also no fear can freeze you in your tracks. A fear of heights can be helpful, but for a long time I had an unreasonable fear of heights. I would hug the walls in building with stairways that went around the a large open area. I have been unable to move because of fear of falling dispite the nearest ledge being over 200 ft from me. In regards to specificity I will share a situation in my life where I used my faith like a tool to receive a promise of God. First I would say that God has promised healing, I believe this, as long as we put our trust in God and not our own ability to believe him. I will also say up front that in this example there was no one else around, so you have only my word that it happened. Whether you believe it or not is up to you. I fell down a small flight of stairs. The kind with the open back and my leg went through when I went down. I broke my leg. While I didn't go to the hospital for it, it was obvious that it was broken. I had bone sticking through the opening in my leg. There was no one around to ask for help. I remember looking up and saying to myself. "Well, now you've done it. Your only hope is God." So I prayed. I prayed the verses that have to do with healing. I prayed verses about trustin God. Then I said something like, (it has been a number of years) God, you said you can heal me and I know it is your will. I trust that you will honor your word and heal this leg." I was gasping in pain the whole time. I watched as the bone slipped back through the cut and into place, the pain was leaving and the wound was beginning to heal and finally healed completly. I got up and walked back up the stairs and into the house. I had used my faith like a tool applied to my broken bone. But I don't always get that result. Much of the time I still listen to the symptoms more than God's promises. I have a heck of a time with colds. I'm not saying that I haven't been healed of a cold, but it has almost always been by God's grace. Like many of you here, I was taught to believing in my own ability to believe and that doesn't yeild the desired results. What I do is trust that God will bring his word to pass. Regarding the "Law of believing" I believe it, but not the way TWI taught it. Believing is really not the right word for what I am trying to say. I guess you could say I believe the "law of having confidence and trust in God". I once heard a story, and I don't know if it is true or not, I suspect it is more a parable, about a tribe in Africa that had completely converted to Christianity. They were well known among the missonaries for their trust in God. They were split by a deep river and it was not uncommon for them to walk on the water from one side to other. After a number of years a missonary revisited them and asked about their ability to walk on the water. Their leader said, "we don't do that anymore, we have built a bridge." The bridge met their need just as well or maybe better than their ability to walk on the water.

It doesn't, that came from Levay's work. Really, that is a humanist concept, not biblical, except as it applies to salvation. The sinner can trust God for his salvation. I guess if God promised something directly to a sinner he could also apply the law of believing, but I doubt if he would. I think I have a better image for what I was trying to say in the last post. My son gets an allowance, but it is conditional. There are certain chores that he has to do. That is the law, if he does the chores he gets the allowance. However, there are times when because of school commitments, or time changes within our family that he cannot perform the chores. It isn't that he doesn't want to, but for some reason he is unable to do so. If I, as a father, am hard-nosed about the chores then by the law I set down in my house he should not get the allowance. But I know that he would have performed them if it had been possible. As a father I superseed my law and give him his allowance anyway. There are even times when I give him additional money just because I love him and he is my son. In otherwords, he can perform the chores and he will always get his allowance, every time. But I can choose to give him his allowance even if he doesn't perform the chores if I so choose. Same with the "law of believing." We can opperate the law and get the results God promised, but he is the father and looks at our heart. He knows our heart and may give us the result anyway.

Not really, I've just added another aspect to it. We can believe to receive God's promises because He has promised them. You can use your faith, or believing like a tool to receive that promise. What you are believing, is a promise of God and just like you sign a check to get money from your account your trust and faithfulness to God will yeild the result. It works every time, but only when it is a promise of God. However, God knows we are dust, and not perfect and there will be times when he blesses you even when you don't have the confidence in Him that you should have. I've seen this a lot in healing. When a person ministers healing he is operating the power of God, together with God, to bring about healing to an individual. From what I've read in the word, and regardless of what TWI taught, it is not absolutly nessessary for the person being healed to believe. From people I've talked to who have ministered healing. I'm not sure it is always nessessary for them to do anything except trust that God knows what he's doing and obey him. However, I have also seen people take a promise and apply it to their lives. Like a tool to bring about a result. They believe that God healed them and trust Him and as a result they receive their healing. They work the word, and apply it to their lives trusting that God will bring the healing to pass. The result is that they are healed. I have also unfortunatly seen people, myself included, who say the right words, and to all outward appearance seem to believe and trust in God and yet don't receive their healing. The reason is they really don't believe. It's not as hard as it sounds. We make it too difficult. There are a lot of peole who are teaching believing and receiving out there, not just TWI. Most of them try to keep God in the picture, but they don't always succeed or our minds only hear part of the teaching and we go off half cocked and fall flat on our faces. Fear on the other hand, is not really believing. It is the opposite of believing or trust. By including it in the Law of Believing, (or faith, trust and confidence) the waters are muddied. Basicly the law of believing, (but not as stated by TWI) works. but God can superseed it. Why he does in some cases and not in others...I don't know. But perhaps you are right, we should take the "law" out of believing. The law always causes us to focus on our lack of ability and brings failures. It is God's grace and mercy that really brings about the result through what Jesus did on the cross. Perhaps, rather than call it "a law" we should just say, "trust and love God and He will bring His promises to pass in your life." To me that is the real law of believing.

I would agree to a point with the list posted above except that what is available MUST BE based on a specific promis of God. And from what I can see this would apply only to using your "faith like a tool" as Oral Roberts used to say. Howver I'm not absolutly sure about the needs and wants parallel point. I'm still working that, at this point...I don't see it. A promis is a promise. God can and often does go beyond oour ability just because He loves us. As far as fear being the reverse of believing or trust. I still stand by it. However since there is no specific promise attached to fear, it is without power except in the way it holds one back, or tricks someone into doing something stuipid, when you wouldn't normally. Why do we have to do more to receive from God? The answer is simple, we have gotten out of the habit of trusting God. Why do bad things happen, because of the curse. I have heard of areas people have not had as much science taught them, where recieving from God is seems to be much easier. If you take what is posted above it makes sense. If you take the bad stuff as not promises but stuff that just happens because of the curse, it makes sense. If you enlarge on this as TWI did in it's teachings and try to apply it to issues not specificly promised in the Word of God, you have a form of Humanism. What is interesting is that if you have ever studied the Satanic Bible by Anton Levay, you will find these same principles promoted. He teaches believing = receiving without God being in the picture. God must be in the picture, and God often superseeds your faith to get us through. So in reality there are times when we will recieve dispite our belieivng, trust, faith, whatever you want to call it, just because God loves us.

Negitive believing is basicly just fear. The only way it really applies is that it can become a self fulfilling prophecy. We become so afraid of something that we do stuiped things that actually bring about what we are afraid of. As I said, the way that TWI taught believing, it took God out of the picture. You can only believe, or I prefer to say, have faith in what God promised. God never promised that the little boy would be hit by the car. Not a promise, not something that you can trust in. Fear can open a door for the devil to get through, but most of what gets through falls under the curse caused by Adam's fall. You get stuck by a thorn in one of two ways. 1) you grab it, which is carlessness, or 2) you don't see it and step on it, or some such thing. But the thorn, as I understand it, came about by the fall and the curse on the land. So... we are back to "**it happens" as a result of the fall of man. Fear can also stop you from doing something that might help you, and stop you from putting your trust in God to receive deliverance. In the case of the little boy, the only way her fear could have caused the boy to get hit, is that she spent so much time with the boy because she was afraid he would get hit that she failed to teach the boy the proper way to cross the street. Instead she met him, did the looking and decision making for him, so he really didn't know what he was looking for when it was time to cross the street on his own. As a father I see myself doing this sometimes. My son is in the 4-H Aerospace club. He builds a rocket for launching each year. The first year he needed help and I found myself getting frustrated as I tried to teach him and end up going , "no like this." and doing the work. He didn't learn the proper way to put together the rocket, because I didn't really train him. The next year I did better and let him do more of the work. The rocket didn't look as good, but he learned and the next year was a state fair entry.

I've always translated pistis, most often translated "faith", as "That which you believe to the point that it affects your life in all you do and say" Kind of a mouthful. I just think of it as something I can apply in my life the same way I can 2+2=4. I have faith that 2+2=4, and I act accodingly any time I need to apply that formula. However for this to work the rules and information that it is based on must be accurate. I can only say that of specifics in the word of God. i.e. I can not say I'm believing for a blue Tesla and expect to receive it, unless God has specificly promised me a blue Tesla. I can believe, or put my trust in "God will meet my needs, as long as I do what he says." Big difference. Most of God's promises are general,not specific and have actions on our part that go with them. Different people have different ideas of what having one's need me, but to be accurate it has to be in line with what God says it is.

and God said "Yep" I think you really hit the nail on the head. What God says we need and what we think we need are often two different things. There are some of us who do need lots and lots of money. But all of us don't. We should have enough though to have our real needs met, food, clothing, shelter, etc. And we should have enough to help others at least to a point. Ephesians says that the person who stole should steal no more and labor with his hands so that he would have to give to others. Why would it be any different for the rest of us. Seems like a good reason to work to me. I've lost a lot of money investing in a various friends businesess that after prayer I felt God led me to invest in with the idea that IF there was any profit I would have a percentage until the investment was returned with interest up to a certain amount, this was the only stipulation. If they failed, I got nothing. They all failed. I not only didn't make a profit, I didn't even get the money back. But two of them mentioned that if they had taken out a loan for the full amount without my money it was likely that they would have been bankrupt and possibly be homeless. Seems like a good deal to me. Money can be replaced. People can't. That's been my attitude with money for a long time and God has never faild to meet my needs and even a little more.

I do think God promises that He will meet our needs. As far as wealth goes, I think how much we receive as a result of trusting Him may depend on what our needs really are and whether we let the wealth control us. I have to laugh at people who say they are "believing for" something. God really doesn't ever ask us to "believe for" anything, He asks us to trust in him. Big difference. You are right that many people take as promises things that aren't. A bigger problem is that people often see the promise of something like wealth, but pay no attention to the service and worship that is to go with it. For example God says to give (he doesn't say where, just give) and He will give back to you. So many people give expecting to get back, and they should, but if they see it as a trade or investment it really isn't giving is it? You give with no strings attached, out of a joyfull heart. You give because you want to give regardless of whether you get anything back or not. Most people don't see that part of it. With every promise you see there is a corresponding action that goes with it. An there is often a heart attitude required as well. So it is not just trusting God, but obeying God from the heart as well. And as with all things...God is greater than our heart.

Personally, I always thought these types of things were a)Satan's fault - because he doesn't like us very much. or Adam's fault, because he is the one who let Satan become God of this world. When stuff goes wrong, even things like sickness it's because of the Adam's sin which cursed the world as well. In other words "***t happens" Where our believing is involved is in the area of trusting God for His deliverace. I've never really liked the word "believe" as a translation of the word "Pistis", I prefer faith, which TWI wouldn't like, because it implies confidence,trust and steadfastness. As far as believing goes I might believe someone, but not trust them but if I have faith in you, I believe you, trust you, and have confidence in you. I do believe that we need to trust God if we are going to receive His promises. If we trust Him,I believe we will receive without fail. Nowhee in the word that I know of does it say we will be without problems. In fact Jesus said "In the world you will have trouble." Then he says, "be of good cheer for I have overcome the world." So it isn't that we will not have trouble. That's the result of Adam's mess up, but that we will be able to get through it...no matter how long it takes. The issue with "believing = recieving" as TWI taught it. God was out of the picutre, it was all on you. Recently I read a comment about recieving from God. The person pointed out that we often want microwave results, but God often marinates. (I know I've spelled that wrong, but my spell check is down right now.)

I have a shadow of memory that someone somewhere arcived all of Waydale; or at least the threads. Anyone remember if that is correct?

It was meant to be joke, I just forgot to put the smiley in. :wacko: Of course, since I mis-spelled idiot in my post.... maybe it was a good call. I think the biggest problem with TWI teachings is that they took God out of the picture. I always remember the verse that says "if our heart condemns us, God is greater than our heart." He's greater than our ability to believe too.

I don't really have a problem with believing = receiving. But before you all chime in and say what an idot I am I will add that I don't believe it the way TWI taught it. We believe to receive that which God has already promised us, but if it is not a specific promise, all the believing in the world won't bring it to pass. Like the "poop example" above. The problem with TWI teaching is that they taught than anything could be believed for. Which is not biblicly true. Personally, I would rather say trusting God about what He says will get you to the point of receiving His promise. Even saying this, don't put God in a box. He can work a miracle without your believing and often does and we are human, God knows it, loves us and would rather see you go to a doctor and get help than not get any help. I've found that God often works through Doctors. And perhaps the most important rule is Don't condemn yourself,don't condemn others and don't let anyone else condemn you. Condemning someone just tears down their ability to trust God.

I don't remember my first one, but I would bet it was something out of the Blue Book. I do remember my first teaching after I "came back" to TWI, after being gone a number of years (from 76 to 88) and having no idea of what had happened. I just when back to only place I had heard the word taught. With everything I found out later had gone on, I'm surprized they let me teach at all. I taught on "The Whole Armor of God." and taught completely contrary to the Athlete fo the spirit teaching. When they instructed me more fully, I set a letter to HQ about how it appeared they had take the many clear verses and interpreted them in light of the a dificult verse elsewhere and that they had gone against everything they taught us in PFAL. I didn't stay long after that, but interestingly enough the response from HQ was well worded, thought out, polite and completly wrong according to my Greek Dictionaries.

I have to admit I like the idea of Advance over Retreat. What is interesting is that when I left I found that many non-TWI understood the concept without elaberating on it. As to the idea of HO-H0 verse Christmas. I have to agree, it seems double minded. If you are going to celebrate it call it what it is or don't celebrate it. Have the same problems with some of the church changing Halloween to "fall festival" or some such name. Celbrated or don't.

I've always liked that song. Though I think of it more as a kids song. But we do have a great big wonderful God and I've always liked songs that remind me of that. Though I always ended with "Great big wonderful God." That's how I learned it. Somewhere it changed to the "G. O. D. spells God"

Unfortunately, yes some are and so are some other ministers who were not ever associated with TWI. TWI was not really unique. They are just the ones we at greasespot are most familiar with. I also know of some splinter group ministers who do work full time ministering. There are good and bad people everywhere. In the end God will judge. I was just using ABS to cover everything tithe, offering, gifts. May not have been the best term to use. That's also why I said that I felt churches should have to file some records with the IRS to prove they are ministering.

I personally don't have a problem with a minister living off of the ABS as long as he really is working full time and I do believe that he should have a comfortable living wage. But I also believe that any church should be working both in its community and at least donating to other groups who are helping the poor and/or spreading the gospel. They should also be helping their own when they have a need. Any church or ministry that is not doing this is not really following the word as I understand it. It's interesting when Judas left the others thought he was leaving to give to the poor. Why would they think that if it was not something that they regularly did? As far as churches being tax exempt and our being able to deduct our gifts from our taxes; I like being able to do that. It's nice that the US allows churches to be tax exempt, and I intend to make use of it when I pay my taxes, I would be stupid not to. However, if it changed and I couldn't deduct it, it wouldn't change my giving in the slightest. I think one of the problems is that the IRS really doesn't ask for proof that the church is ministering. The churches are required to keep records, and if challenged produce them for the IRS, but the IRS doesn't really check to make sure that a ministry really is ministering. I don't see any reason why a church shouldn't be required to at least file a statement showing incoming monies, expenses and salaries, and at least general benevolence gifts. If they give to an organization there is no reason the organization should not be named, if to an individual a list of the amounts and nature, without names, of the benevolence gifts given out. If a church is not doing this, I see no reason why the tax exempt status could not be revoked. Currently under current tax law, the only requirements for a ministry being tax exempt is that, 1) they teach their religion and 2) they don't get political.