JumpinJive

A fair question, Mo, and one we're trying to explore in this topic. I've felt great despair at times throughout my life, both when I believed in an involved God and when I didn't, and when I didn't believe in God at all. The situations seemed to me to end about the same. In time, things quieted down and got better. Its kind of like my time on a prayer team. Pray, not pray, it didn't matter. Broken hearts and bones heal for saint and sinner alike, and at about the same rate of speed. There's actually some comfort in believing that. -JJ

Good points Mark. Building a concept of love into a personal philosophy of life would be bound to produce some good things. How to love God might be a subject open to debate but loving your neighbor is something so simple and easy I suspect sometimes we just overlook it. -JJ

Well, Mo, all the things you listed are tangible and verifiable. If God was as obvious as, say, traffic, life would be significantly different for every one. In that case, fear might very well be a useful tool for teaching and motivation. But alas, He's not, and implications of eternal death or damnation could be viewed as fear mongering. -JJ

Mark: I'm not much of a philosopher and I never heard of Pascal's Wager until reading this thread. But isn't there something missing from that construct, i.e., a true knowledge of God? How do you know there is life after death if God exists? How do you know there isn't if He doesn't? From what I can gather, attaining resurrection life from God is not an easy task. Jesus said as much on several occasions. He even said there would be people who do signs and wonders in his name but still won't get there. There are other biblical examples too. Only 2 of an estimated 2 million got to see the promised land after being called out from Egypt. Not even Moses got there! What makes you think you're going to make it? Maybe you're just another idolatrous infidel in His eyes. Then again, maybe you're His precious child. How do you know where you stand? -JJ

David: Nice cartoon. I have always liked B.C. and I certainly agree with this cartoon's content. But why did you post it? Are you saying that the only alternative to believing in an invisible God is believing in a graven image? Just looking for a bit more clarity. -JJ

Hah! Don't be reluctant George. That just about sums it up, I think. For some reason though, I just don't want to give the religious thing up. Its very frustrating and I sure don't understand it! -JJ

Perfect, Mo! An concise description of my current mental state and why I felt compelled to start this thread! The discussion is really about where to go from here. I long ago gave up on TWI but apparently not so much on a lot of the underlying principles. I was involved with offshoots like CES for quite some time and was even an elder in the PCUSA for awhile. I just can't get it to work. I suppose the topic could be presented another way: If we assume there is a God, how do we learn about Him? It seems obvious to me revealed religion, e.g., the bible, isn't cutting it. Whatever the all-truth might be, the comforter doesn't seem to be leading us to it. Well, maybe a few special folks but I don't see it as a general rule and certainly not for me. I'm trying to stay light about it but deep down its pretty painful. Reevaluating the principles you base your life on is never easy. And folks here on GS have gone through it and aren't afraid to talk about it. Pretty cool! -JJ

None that I can see, George. I don't think it would be all that difficult for an all-knowing and all-powerful God to make himself known should he so desire. And I suspect he would do so unequivocally. Secrecy is supposedly the key to the devil's power not God's, correct? For example, if there really was a worldwide flood, why would he obliterate the fossil record and sedimentary deposits which provide evidence of his action? Come to think of it, I can't think of any action attributed to God, not one thing, that doesn't require a leap of faith. Jeesh, there's barely any evidence that a man named Jesus even existed, much less raised people from the dead. God proclaims he wants to be known; seek and ye shall find. Remember "to know that you know that you know?" I've found the closer I look the tougher it is to see. The more I want to believe the less I can. After years of studying and trying to know God, I'm no closer now than I ever was. In fact, I may even be farther away. Seeing through a glass darkly? That's not a good position for a child of God to be in, nor a reasonable place for a spiritual Father to commit his children. -JJ

Thanks, guys! Isu makes more sense now. -JJ

Easier said than done, Sirg. That one just won't go away. I've often thought a lifetime on the planet just isn't enough. You're finally starting to get a clue and you're done.Honesty. Good word, George. You're right about that. Most of my Way days I remember trying to funnel everyone I knew or met into Way-think. I had seen no tangible results from that thinking mind you, but that didn't stop me. I remember spewing forth the words time and again and saying to myself "Please believe, please believe, please believe." It really was a fundamentally dishonest time in my life. Thanks Mark! I suppose I've always believed in a supreme being. Well, there was a time in my teens when I didn't pay much attention to anything like that at all but on the whole it seems to have always been there. The concept of a God and the idea that He spoke reliably to humanity in the bible is, well, rather profound. TWI's take on the bible seemed (and still kind of seems) right to me, assuming those two premises are true. Why wouldn't His words be perfect and fit like a hand in a glove? Why wouldn't you drop everything and commit your life to His service? Why wouldn't God be faithful to all of His promises? I thought at one point after I started this thread that maybe the assumption shouldn't be that there is no God. Maybe a better discussion would follow an assumption that there is no bible, i.e., there is no reliable way to know God. That does seem to be more akin to where my head has been at lately. I think you're on to something there Mark! -JJ

Okay, I give. What's up with "Isu?" All I get when I google it is Indiana State University. -JJ

Okay guys, ease up a bit. The thread wasn't started for bickering. Excellent points Mark, Too Gray and Garth. I never thought much about the distinction between God and religion. Well, I'm sure that I have and was probably so doing when I started the post. Those quotes from Einstein really set the differences clearly. Too Gray: I hear you on the 15 years. I think its probably been about that long, at least 10 anyway. And I have been moving slowly. I guess I'm feeling its time to actually start Doing something. But if not a new type of faith, then what? A new concept of God? Where did the path from your first post at GreaseSpot lead you? Garth: what were your steps along the way? What led you to your conclusions about God and is there anything that guides you now? -JJ

Thanks for all your responses thus far! As expected, they are thoughtful and compassionate. Mark: This is what I'm wondering about. I don't have any particular problem with this aspect of faith. Its probably what is keeping me hanging on, if only by a thread. But I have two problems with this. First, surely there are non-Christians who live morally. Is the only alternative to faith in a Christian God immorality? Second, is that really the extent of your faith? (That's rhetorical; no disrespect intended.) The vast majority of Christians I've ever known were advocating something far more involved than that. From personal spiritual relationships with God/Jesus Christ/[Hh]oly [ss]pirit to physical manifestations to life after death, every group has had something bigger on their agenda. I don't think I know anyone who got involved to be moral. But having said that, I think you're right. There doesn't seem to be much of a downside to believing in God. As long as it stays as simple as creating a solid moral foundation in one's life. When we get beyond that and into, say, witnessing, or imposing our own understanding as ckeer noted, its a whole nother ballgame. Sirg: are you saying the very act of smashing is what helps us grow and brings us a stronger and more well-defined faith? I have thought along these lines but have a nagging suspicion I'll be long in the dirt before there is nothing left to smash. Thanks for weighing in, George. I was hoping you would. What happened when you started coming to those realizations? Did you still seek a greater understanding of your place in the universe or did you not bother? For me, I started tip-toeing into the works of various 'non-Christian' authors such as Bertrand Russell, Thomas Paine and Robert Buckman. Their arguments make sense but I'm not sure they talked much about where to go from here. Something in my soul seeks a higher ground but I'm kind of lost in how to get there or satisfy the need. ckeer: LOL! Ditto on those personality quirks! -JJ CM: So sorry. That is tragic.

Then what? I've spent the vast majority of my 49 years of life believing in a benevolent spiritual being who is interested in the affairs of humanity and is actively involved on our behalf. Step by step I've watched my view of God change from actively involved to maybe involved to whimsically involved to not involved at all and to even questioning any actual benevolence. But even when my faith was shot and my senses rebelled in light of my discoveries, I still wanted to pray and still remotely hoped for God's daily guidance and perhaps a chance at eternal life at some point in the future. What takes the place of beliefs that are that deeply held? Where does one go from here? The world seems a cold, hard place without hope if there is no God. But if I'm honest with myself, I have to admit this is a real possibility. Or maybe my failing faith has more to do with my expectations of God. Maybe my understanding of things like miracles or the 'new man' or manifestations or the source of the bible is flawed and my expectation of involvement like this is not what God is really about at all. Or maybe God has blown off the world like he supposedly did between Malachi and Matthew. I guess I'm kind of curious as to whether others are fighting this battle and what you have done or are doing about it. What goes through your head when you contemplate life and its meaning and the possiblity that that there really isn't a God? -JJ

goo goo g'joob

And now to the tooth fairy?? You're right, George. I forsee no reasonable dialogue in the near future. Shame... -JJ

Well, you lost me Too Gray. I understand your thought regarding the thread being about seeing and then believing. Fair enough. But what does in the air you breath in the life you live in the boundless heart have to do with anything at all? These are meaningless words which bring us no closer to 'believing' than random words from the dictionary. Unless, of course, CM was thinking in a specific context, which I 'believe' he was. But his context wasn't clear from the beginning, hence several posts asking, "What's the point?" I don't know CM and haven't read his posts outside of this subject so maybe I'm a bit naive, but I suspect his context is a Way-like belief in God. Which is okay, but, going further, it seems to me you have to have an object to believe in before you can believe. CM's belief in God is all well and good, if that is what he chooses to believe. Its just that his choice of prose doesn't convey it to me. His further statements, like if the heart is bound, then unbind it are equally meaningless. How is the heart bound and how does one unbind it. How does one know if their heart needs unbinding? Can one do the unbinding on their own or do they need spiritual help? If they need spiritual help, how is that help acquired? God in Christ in You? The seed of the dead Christ? Some other formula? What results are to be expected? Should we expect results when dealing with the things of God? ...? Some, like Sudo and George approach and answer these questions differently than you or CM or sirguessalot might. But I'm not seeing anything illegitimate in their responses. Well, maybe some of the delivery could be refined, but its hard to argue with the content. I have not found a way in many years of trying to confidently understand what God is about nor do I see how that knowledge can be confidently ascertained from the pages of the bible. Looking outside the bible seems to me to be an honest location in which to seek answers. You said "I know that in my soul I am a believer..." and I can appreciate and respect that. I feel that way myself. I want it badly and I'm seeking something far greater than myself, something well beyond this earthly life I live, but as Sudo stated, wanting it doesn't make it so. If its there I'd like to know more about it. I just have not found a way to do that. Sudo could be right, I might be in deep trouble now. -JJ

Well, I'm still not real clear on the point of this thread, which in a nutshell summarizes my thoughts on the bible. I don't think my lack of clarity has anything to do with not looking. I see plenty going on. Unfortunately, not much of it guides me into the belief that there is an active and benevolent God directing the affairs of human history. If I had to guess, I would say it is precisely because I am looking that I am having my doubts. Contrast that with the Penn and Teller piece which is direct and to the point. Perhaps a bit childish in its presentation but its content is clear and hard to argrue with. They say what they mean and mean what they say. (Did I say that??) Could not the God of the universe have communicated at least that efficiently? -JJ

Ummm, I'm with Garth. My beer is pretty good and there's a buzz on my mind. What's the point?

Okay, I'm a bit confused here. What exactly was the timeline of this thing hitting the field? Because now that I think about it, I don't remember the impact hitting our area until the spring-summer of 1987. It was right before I was supposed to go into the corps. That was when various friends called me to say they quit. That was when Ralph D. came through our area. I distinctly remember because spouse and I had several heated debates about whether or not to go in residence at HQ. (He won and we went.) I guess the simplest way to sum up the impact that paper had on my life is that it marks the time when I stopped exercising free will and started allowing them to dictate my every move. I decided that in order to fight for them, I ought to not just believe them, but believe IN them whole-heartedly. (meaning I believed they were working for God and doing His bidding) Once we got to HQ we were taught that the way to be a part of the solution was to stop all the in-fighting and strife. Obedience was the key to godliness. At the time it made sense to me because I saw a lot of folks acting either holier-than-thou and like a bunch of conspirators and I didn't like it. I was glad when they cleared out. Funny how having the truth regarding a situation can totally change your opinion of who were the bad guys and who were the good guys.

Radar, Thanks so much for your posts!! I found out later about this reading but not about the details you are mentioning here. I had always wondered what Mrs. Wierwille thought and did while this was going on... If Don strongly disagreed with what was in the paper, did she also disagree? Was she simply "trapped" in a world her husband created? Was she also strong-armed by Craig and his cronies? I remember when Craig taught the Galations teachings (after the fog) he commented that VP had tried to get his doctors to tell him he could'nt/shouldn't go to Gartmore, and that Mrs. W also did not want him around CG. Anything you can tell us would be greatly appreciated.