JumpinJive

This post is mostly to/for Mark O'Malley. Mark, I just had to ask about this one. I'm mostly ignorant of Catholic beliefs as I left the Catholic church when I was a teenager and haven't really gone back. So maybe a good place to start is defining a relic. In my head I think of them as any type of man-made object which believers keep around in an effort to remind them of their beliefs. They could be crosses, medallions, statues, right on up to the holy grail, the holy lance or the Shroud of Turn. I'm also thinking the bible says something about not worshiping things made by hand and God was plenty pi$$ed in the OT when the Israelites did so, on numerous occasions. Then again, He seemed okay with the things in the Tabernacle. So, I'd be interested in hearing your perspective on this. Thanks! -JJ

I think Oak has it right. I so wanted to believe! Who wouldn't want God active in their lives? Who wouldn't want to manifest spiritual power? Who wouldn't want to eat of the meat of the Word? How many times did you picture yourself getting someone up out of a wheelchair? Pretty heady stuff, especially for the young and searching. Sadly, it doesn't work like that (even though I still think it should). -JJ

FWIW, I think they're synonymous. -JJ

Its easy to see why one could get uptight. Everything was regimented. I went to some gathering or another in Boston and it involved a formal dinner. Each table had a corpsman (meant in the generic sense) as the table head. I had to physically threaten ours before he'd even let the salt be passed without his permission. If I remember correctly, everything had to start with him. He served himself and then passed it on. What incredible arrogance! I avoided functions like that from then on. -JJ

Maybe its just my perception of Dr. Phil. I've always thought of him as kind of wimpy. A pop psychologist with more interest in internet dating than probling the depths of the human soul. -JJ

Really? I'm having trouble imaging that. -JJ

So Mary, what was the verdict? Did they have good justification? How did you hold up? I'm just curious. Personally I'd run far and fast. Your husband's reaction tells me all I need to know. -JJ

Oswego is about an hour and a half away from me. I went to college there and don't miss the wind off the lake nor the current seven feet of snow they've gotten over the last week or so. AMBASSADOR ONE! That's it!! I couldn't remember the name of the plane when I was posting in the ROA thread. Thanks, ex! -JJ

Wanderer, About the best I can say is that it never hurts to be friends. I'm still in touch with a few folks from my way days, one of which was my fiance at the time, though we never got married. None of them are involved with twi or offshoots any longer but there is still common ground to communicate. People are, after all, people. As for wanting better for her, well, wish away. But I suspect she's dug in pretty deep and would tell you she's quite content. And I also suspect she wouldn't be lying. She's had plenty of opportunity to leave and hasn't. Most of the splinter groups I've encountered are not run by the controlling psychos we found in twi. Were you with the Z-man on Allen Street? I painted that house in the summer of '84. Its a MONSTER house! -JJ

Hah! Just about every weekend now that I'm out of the cults, the kids are gone and I'm kind of bored with life! -JJ

Amen, templelady! Thanks for that!! -JJ

Folks loved our parties. We preached grace and freely passed the beer. But we were geographically far enough removed that 'leadership' would be unlikely to show up anyway. I don't remember too many parties after moving closer to the 'mainstream.' -JJ

I was at 3 ROAs in the early 80's. My memories of them are sparse but I remember the events getting consecutively worse. The first was carefree and kinda fun. I was in tent city and got caught up in all the activity. The worst thing I remember is that crap they passed off as soap in the showers. Well, and the lines. I still have pictures of VP on opening day when the plane flew over. The second was kind of boring except for the 'training' classes. I think that was the year I went out as an Educational WOW and if it wasn't for the extra classes I'd have gone out of my mind. The third year was the best. A few of us got kicked out of a corps teaching in one of the tents simply for being there and I met LCM upfront in all his arrogance. That was the first day. And last. We spent the rest of the week in St. Mary's at the lake, coming back to the grounds only for the nightly show under the bigtop and to sleep. And to think, I actually felt guilty about that for a while. Not long though... -JJ

Hey cman! Loved this quote by Ernest Becker in the trailer. It twisted my mind a bit. -JJ

It may be because they are expecting a kingdom on earth. Isn't that the essence of the promise to Abraham? Isn't that what the Messiah is about? Heaven just doesn't fit into their end-time beliefs. There are several Christian organizations that believe this too. They don't believe a place in heaven is the reward for a faithful life. They believe the reward is a place in the kingdom which will be here on earth. However, Abigail makes a valid point. Getting caught in the debate is easy and can be overwhelming and distracting. One would think there'd be something more definitive on this subject, but the controversies rage... -JJ

MG is still listed as prez on the website. They must be keeping it as low-key as possible. -JJ

Have they acknowledged pp errors yet? I was under the impression they were still hanging on to it. -JJ

Hi Mark! Are you a believer in the theory that the earth is approximately 10,000 years old? -JJ

Be careful you're not caught up in the cleansing there, starbird! Its mighty difficult to determine which is false and which is true religion. One little slip and you're a goner... -JJ

Well, apparently there is a 'Movement" out there. Is it relevant? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latter_Rain_Movement -JJ

I think a lot of it is human nature. Pointing fingers and condemning other beliefs can often help us feel better about ourselves. Its a pretty potent high when you believe you have the inside scoop on the things of God. I've certainly fallen prey to it, that's for sure. Throw in a needy personality and it can really get out of hand. Over time I've found that truth is an incredibly hard thing to come by. It takes a lot of work and consistent effort to get at it. And if you're lucky enough to get there (although I don't know how you'd actually know, especially re the spiritual), the tendency is to hold on to it for all your worth. We so don't want to be wrong about anything! But I've changed my mind on so many different subjects over the years that I don't hold on quite as hard any more. Maybe I'm just growing up. Sometimes I wish I could approach the situation like sonofarthur. Just ask 'the teacher's' direction, be confident in the reply and be done with it. Unfortunately, I've never been able to make that work. A lot of the subjects I've had to change my mind on were obtained just that way. I certainly can't vouch for its reliability. Belle: The god of El Nino. That's too funny! -JJ

Sadly, Sir, there just isn't enough time in the day. I don't necessarily reject other spiritual values, but my time is limited and I have to pick and choose where I invest it. My selections are not intentionally dishonest; I just happen to be pursuing a subject I've deemed more important at that particular time in my life. Not really. I usually pick up a book or study a subject based on some question or concern that somehow got itself stuck in my head. When I have satisfactorily answered my question, I move on to whatever else my mind has latched on to. If its agnosticism, so be it. If its Buddhism, I'm okay with that too. I'd venture a guess to say the subjects I don't investigate will far, far outnumber the subjects I do by the time my life is over. There are just too many subjects out there. -JJ

How does one surrender, bliss? Surrender to what? To Jesus? He's not here and doesn't communicate a lot. To what the bible says about Jesus? Witness the trinity debate on another thread here at the doctrinal forum. To what the churches say Jesus is about? I don't think they agree alot, hence thousands of denominations. I'm really having trouble getting there. It kind of reminds me of the let-him-into-your-heart version of evangelism. What the heck does it mean? -JJ

I don't think giving $29 to CES is going to have all that big of an impact. Spend the money and get the book. Researchers do this kind of thing all the time. -JJ

Good point, Oakspear. I always wondered why the guidance of the holy spirit isn't enough to overcome the influences of the devil and truly lead christians to the all-truth. -JJ