JumpinJive

I tend to agree too. Imperfect men also decided which writings should be considered truly "biblical" and even that isn't a settled issue. -jj

Another thumbs-up for Ehrman's books. They were instrumental in helping me to break free of the haughty fundamentalism taught by TWI and its offshoots. His writings are straightforward and the evidence he presents is overwhelming. I have found over the past few years that diving into the subjects of textual criticism and the historical Jesus has put a lot of things into perspective for me. I wish I had started sooner! -JJ

Who defines what he/she/it/them/whatever is supposed to be? How do we come to know it? There is nothing definitive that I've been able to find. Honestly, I'd welcome an experience such as Jbarrax's if it would actually clarify things and point me to the truth. But alas, it took only a few hours before the spirituality of his experience was challenged. If what Ham says is true, I suspect there is a lot of anger out there, which might help to explain the massive drops in church attendance over the past several decades. -JJ

Agreed, but that is exactly the position we have been put in. If that word was unambiguous or the author stepped in to offer some clarity, there'd be a lot less need to develop our own opinions. There'd also be far fewer Christian denominations, fewer requests to unreasonably jump on the faith wagon and, on a more practical note, peace in the Middle East. -JJ

Sadly, I do tend to get mad at God at times. It generally has little to do with life's circumstances though. One example of what can fuel the fire is threads like this. I have found through the years that the vast, vast majority of GreaseSpotters are thoughtful, compassionate people honestly seeking truth. Where our searches have led us and what we currently believe is as varied as each individual member. Just have a look at the heartfelt responses to the question in this thread. There is no doubt people here are honestly seeking truth for their lives. So why is getting to the truth so f'ing difficult??? From my old TWI perspective, if I have acknowledged God's existence, accepted Christ's atonement, got born again, spoke in tounges and tried to live in accordance with biblical precepts, why was I not led away from a corrupt and abusive organization like TWI? Why was the newly created 'spirit' now residing inside me quiet about such matters as sexual abuse by the group's highest ranking members? Why did it take close to a decade to get untangled from that group (if I'm yet truly untangled)? Why did so many people have to get hurt and hurt so deeply? Does God really need rape and other abuses to build someone up? Outside of TWI but with still somewhat of biblical perspective, my thoughts on this didn't change much. If we're willing seekers of God, why does learning stuff like this take decades? Why are there thousands of so-called Christian denominations if there is only one God, and His Comforter is supposedly leading us to all truth? Why does eternal life (or death) hang on such an ambiguous notion as faith when at best we see through a dark glass spiritually? And what's with that still, small voice? I sometimes find myself in the awkward position of making excuses for God's basic impotence. I just want to scream, "Speak up, Dude!" I think the world would benefit geometrically with just a little active and unambiguous involvement from its creator. That's something even a mediocre father would do for his children, at least on occasion. Is that not something most people on the planet long for and would welcome? But NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO! So yes, I sometimes get mad at God. But then I remember I'm mostly agnostic these days (or maybe a type of socks 'Chaos Christian'), open a beer and I'm good to go. -JJ

So much for God being forgiving and a God of love... -JJ

I don't know about the board, but I've apologized to everyone I could find that I ever influenced to consider or become part of that abusive organization. -JJ

Steve Lortz, good to see you again. I think the last time I spoke to you was on the CES boards, before they shut them down. I hope all is well!! I have sometimes wondered why God would choose a form of communication so prone to human error and misunderstanding as the written word to convey universal truth. Beyond the language barriers there are also the cultural divides and the fundamental problems of copying and preserving sacred texts in an age without moveable type and printing presses. I've moved away from my fundamentalist beliefs in the inerrancy of Scripture. But I have found this to be a good thing. I've taken an interest in the historical side of Christianity and have been able to rebuild my faith, at least somewhat, in the inspired living and writing of biblical characters. That may seem like a non-sequitur but it has helped me immensely over the years. -JJ

I think we ought to take out the spaces and punctuation too and read it like real men and women!! -JJ

I'm mostly in the same boat with Oakspear. I don't much dig into the bible anymore except for maybe the Psalms/Proverbs/Ecclesiastes 'trinity' once in a while. 1. What is your understanding of the Trinity? --three co-equal, co-eternal beings who in combination make up what mainstream Christianity today refers to as God. 2. Does one have to believe in the Trinity to be a Christian? --Who knows? But I would think if the answer to this was affirmative, the bible would explicitly say such. It doesn't. I can't imagine God would make salvation dependent on a doctrine so biblically ill-defined and conceptually obtuse. 3. If one does not believe in the Trinity do they believe in "another Jesus"? --Who knows? It probably depends on your answer to question 2. 4. Where is VPW's JCNG book accurate / inaccurate? --I always thought the JCNG book was mostly lame. For such an important subject, it wasn't very well written nor did it have very much detail. I kind of saw it as a hinderance and never openly lent it to anyone. The book from CES was much better, as far as books are concerned. 5. What turns have your beliefs taken w/r to theTrinity surrounding your involvement in TWI, in and out? --None, actually. The trinity, along with the dead being dead, are about the only things I think TWI was right on. I still think that if you just sat down and read the bible without preconceptions, you would never come to the conclusion that God exists as a trinity. Beyond that, not only do I believe you wouldn't see it, you also wouldn't need it. Every work and benefit of God can be understood without the concept of a trinity. Can you think of any verses that absolutely depend on Jesus being God? I can think of none. Being the 2nd Adam and then further exalted by God for doing His will covers all the bases. Just some thoughts from an ex-wayfer turned agnostic... --JJ

Just finished the book this afternoon. An intense read that I found myself relating to on many levels. I don't think I really understood just how destructive and far-reaching the vicster's actions were, not having known anyone who was directly subject to his personal abuses. But after reading the book, some things started making more sense. It brought me back to my first twig and always wondering why my twig coordinator felt the need to sleep with every woman who came to fellowship. I have two daughters and I tell you, I think I understand why that old ba$tard felt the need for bodyguards. Thanks for having the guts to write the book, Kristen! -JJ

Hmmm. I'm not quite sure I can explain myself. I guess I'm still trying to make the concept of God work in my head. I want something I can dig into and not just cute bromides to help me temporarily feel better. In the end, maybe the 'jerk' who cut me off last night really was just a jerk. How do I remain holy in the face of God without resorting to little mind tricks such as that prayer implies? I was hoping for something more substantial. Did that help clarify anything at all? -JJ

Is that the best he's got, Abigail? I'd be interested in reading his book but if that's as far as he goes, well, I can get that from any basic pop psychology book. Tell me he goes deeper! -JJ

No problem, Todd!! I have to agree with you, world views definitely change over time and that aspect is one of the parts of the book that I really like. My path has basically been the same and its good to know I'm not alone. Maybe when you have more time. -JJ

Hi Sir! I suspect at a theoretical level you are right, but that wasn't the purpose of his book. He is specifically addessing God as 'defined' in the bible and the title pretty much says that. From where I sit, that next step would be mine to take. I am woefully undereducated in other world views but I think the effort would probably be rewarding. (Not that I'll be taking on that project any time soon!) So, in the end you're saying there is no real answer to the question? at least not one we are currently equipped to answer? I would tend to agree that suffering is universal, at least here on this planet. From the plankton getting eaten in the sea to the overpopulation of dogs getting put down at the SPCA to the humans being born with cancer. It does seem built into the nature of things. "Good, true and beautiful" is, I think, debatable. Well, isn't that what we're talking about? That was the basis of Ehrman's book. And isn't that what the bible teaches? an omnipotent and omnipresent spiritual being who has his hands in human destiny (figuratively speaking). Hah! The first word you used was suffer. :) I see what you're saying but I'm not sure it's a lot different than Ehrman's concept of 'redemptive' suffering. Somehow, in the end, all will be well. You changed some words but basically you're saying there is some kind of greater good that can be achieved / perceived / understood / ... through the suffering. Somewhere in the midst of it all, there is meaning to be found. Unless, of course, you're the dead guy. It's hard to pursue meaning in that state. -JJ

Isn't the the one who cost the Cowboys their run at the Super Bowl last year? She seems to have recovered okay. -JJ

Jump in, Sir. I don't think penworks would mind. And the nature of suffering in the world isn't dependent on Bart Ehrman! :) -JJ

I would agree, Sir. But until something changes radically, well, God isn't talking and people are only guessing... -JJ

Sure Sir, Basically he takes the position that the question is ultimately unanswerable. Not in the sense that God reproved Job for asking, but more along the lines of Ecclesiastes in that some things in this life are just plain vain and ultimately unknowable, so get on with living. I'm not sure that is an entirely satisfactory answer, but I'm also not sure there is much of a better one out there. As an overview, here are some other biblical causes of suffering noted in the book: 1) God's punishment for disobedience (the flood, Sodom and Gomorrah, the fall of both OT kingdoms) 2) Consequences of people's sin (Cain murdering Abel, David murdering Uriah, the rich exploiting the poor) 3) Redemptive (Joseph sold into slavery but ultimately saves Israel; part of God's plan) 4) A test (Job, Abraham's sacrifice of Isaac) 5) Apocalyptic (Cosmic enemies, like the devil. Jesus and Paul taught this; but things will be righted at a later time) Hope this helps some. -JJ

Thanks for the post, penworks! I have to agree, the book is excellent. I found his discussion of suffering to be quite enlightening and he had me thinking about the bible, spirituality and generally living life in ways I never had before. I also enjoyed his discussions on how he came to be an agnostic. Perhaps not for everyone, but that is the path I have found myself on and I enjoyed reading about his experience. A book well worth reading. -JJ

For a different perspective, try "Misquoting Jesus" by Bart Ehrman: http://www.amazon.com/Misquoting-Jesus-Sto...2842&sr=8-1 -JJ

I was raised Catholic but drifted away in my teen years. I suspect a lot of folks went that route. Of late, I've been considering going back. I'm not sure why that is, but I'm at the point where I want to give some more of my time and energy to charitable causes. Its hard to argue with the array of charitable causes started and supported by the Catholic church. The opportunity is definitely there. In the end, Catholics aren't doing anything different than any other Christian group. I've heard some astounding teachings over the past year or so on EWTN radio and have found some interesting historical reading related to the RCC, church fathers and some of the communities they have established through the centuries. Its hard to imagine an organization with more cultural impact than the RCC. Try reading some of Mark O'Malley's posts here on Greasespot. You might not agree with him, but you can't deny his discussions are pointed, well argued and interesting. And surprise, surprise, they have a biblical basis! Who woulda thunk it from one of them there Catholics? :) -JJ

I think Oakspear has it right. You have to dig into it for yourself in order for it to mean anything. There are no unequivocal biblical answers for any question you might want to ask, especially the big over-arching questions in your list. Which is probably why I'm more attuned to George in these matters and don't much bother with scripture any more. -JJ

No offense taken, eyes! Interesting about setting it up to take its course. I very often feel this is what God did as well. Like the devil not running around throwing darts, I don't see a lot of God going around answering prayers. If He did, it would be as JBarrax and Bliss noted, a wonderful time to be alive with near endless ourtreach possibilities. Maybe then humanity wouldn't care all that much about death. They would be confident in God and uncaring about what death might bring. I'm not so sure about the controlling aspect though. The OT is very clear about who controlled death and even if the NT says God isn't the author of death, He certainly encouraged and condoned the killing back in the day. And why would God be equivocal about it? Let your yeah be yeah, or whatever that phrase is. Don't tell us in one set of writings you're doing the killing and in another set of writings you're not. Like the world isn't confused enough already when it comes to the things of God!?!? -JJ

Thanks, Jerry! And sorry about your brother. I tend to agree with your statement. We don't really know and going further, I can't quite see how we ever will. Sadly, there seems to be lots of things God wants to keep quiet about, which I think is a fundamentally unfather-like thing to do, but that's another discussion. As for the devil, unleashing an invisible being with the power to kill on a basically unsuspecting populace strikes me as a bit sadistic. So, I'm thinking we don't know, its unlikely we will know in this lifetime, and I'm not real sure its worth finding out, if in fact one believes literally in the discusssions of death and the devil in the bible. -JJ