Ham

They probably would have preferred cold hard cash.. but leaning on people for that may have raised a few suspicions even way back then.. as far as skimming.. if money went DIRECTLY to hq.. and every blue form I sent in went to box 328.. any possible skimming had to occur on the top of the organization.. still it doesn't make a lot of sense. I mean.. wouldn't the money orders generate a paper trail to the "skimmer"? or would it be just as simple to cross out "to da way international" and insert another name, and rely on te fact that it would NEVER be challenged. No purchase was made, there was no loss order so to speak.. no one would ask the post office or bank to follow up on it.. I never checked the status of any money order that I sent in. Now.. this might not effect the organization as such.. they are tax exempt.. but not the "skimmer"..

well.. what good is a point if one cannot beat it beyond death..

:) Naw.. there was no offense taken. You had a few good points. Thanks for YOUR input.

I am painfully aware of the label on every item I purchase.. If it's a choice between china, and pakistan.. as bad as it sounds.. I think the article of clothing was produced in a SLIGHTLY more ethical environment than in pakistan.. the main objection I have for wally mart.. they OWN sweatshops in China. No, they just buy from an "enterprising" chinese industrialist trying to get on his feet.. they have moved some operations there.. from areas of very very little government enforced regulations, to areas in northern China where there are NO regulations.. yeah, people have to live.. and currently, practically the only game in town for clothing is produced overseas.. what I'm saying isn't "just buy american.." that isn't anywhere near practical.. what are you going to do? Pull out the brakes made in Beijing? what I'm suggesting.. given a choice, between an ethically expensively made "widget".. and an inexpensive asian made widget.. if one can't afford the better.. DON'T BUY. Or.. if the non-necessary for life widget is produced under harsh conditions.. just DON'T BUY it.. no cheap junk.. no dollar store plastic earrings for the kids.. twenty for a dollar.. No christmas tree ornaments made in Thailand.. or China.. as bad as it sounds.. I kinda agree with not telling kids there's a Santa Claus.. Santa's workshop and elves are in Beijing, or northern China, or other places as bad or worse.. and we are continents away, well insulated in our cozy homes.. it's like.. we're teaching kids that they are ENTITLED to plentiful, cheap "stuff".. try telling a nine year old that Santa's evil and he's not going to see the wii this Christmas.. it's a psychological problem of our own making.. in my opinion. I'll go along with the gag to some degree.. if I really have to for one reason or another. But I refuse to buy oodles of JUNK.. it's discretionary spending.. people driven to buy just because it's CHEAP.

and we probably have one last incentive payment coming from our perhaps once glorious government.. the vast majority of it will go to.. 7. Charities and Churches.. maybe a half of one percent or less.. 6. Dollar Stores. For USELESS asian made trinkets.. 5. assorted smaller chains such as Koles.. 4. Chinese electronics from Best Buy, other big box stores.. 3. Meijers 2. Target 1. EIGHTY FIVE to NINETY percent- walmart.. for USELESS junk.. or that WILL be junk inside of three to five years. They will be VERY HAPPY to cash a six hundred dollar check for you.. big enough, and they'll turn it into a wallymart-world debit card. For once I agree with Friedman on something.. "let's not send it to China".. What I plan on doing with it.. IF it comes.. catch up on a couple current bills.. buy a little food.. a couple bottles of wine.. horde the rest as long as I possibly can.. maybe put some of it in metal if possible.. Or maybe.. some in GM stock, when it hits twenty three or seventeen cents a share.. the government will prop it back up, I'm sure..

Everything about it is wrong.. how the junk is produced, how it jumps international borders without government's second thought.. how the warehouse workers are equipped with a set of headphones and constant voice continually coaching them to full production.. by a computer.. how the poor truck driver gets a bill for what was once the company's obligation to UNLOAD the junk.. how "workers" are forced to work off the clock, and for the most part, to work for dirt cheap wages and NO benefits when they are on.. not to mention our other near neighbors, with lost jobs and professions simply because they could not produce so much, so cheaply, and so quickly.. I just can't see.. buying dirt cheap, over-discounted junk for a loved one, something produced with souls and surroundings that resemble a scene in the lower depths of Dante's Inferno, stocked and sold by "associates", hustled and paid dirt cheap to give me the "deal"- for CHRISTMAS, for a loved one- I just can't do it anymore.. I don't see how people can flock for such a "deal" produced in such unethical and UNCHRISTIAN manners.. it's the cluelessness that really gets to me.. I thought we were supposed to love our neighbors.. as ourselves. It just seems.. as long as *they* keep the economy propped up.. and a chinese produced widget in every pot.. MOST don't care. I usually don't start these conversations with folks.. I do on forums at times.. people can just ignore me if they think I'm nuts.. but one person who ASKED- in REAL LIFE- I brought up the "love your neighbor" concept as regards to laborers in China.. their reply? "well.. they aren't CHRISTIAN are they?" The hypocrisy is over-whelming..

for a lot of corps and staff, at least at one time, wasn't the mere fact that one had a dog or a cat "practical error"? I bet they STILL have to check with their overseer, and the overseer's overseer's overseer before making such a "big decision".. I can almost hear some of the "meetings" in the no pet days.. "whadda ya mean nobody will take it? Are you are going to let a little thing like a pet get between you and Gawd Almighty? We can have L*nder come over and help you *overcome* this little *opportunity* for fifty eight cents.. you need to work on the practical error in your life.." I may have a vivid imagination, but I know this is not far from the truth..

Interesting point there.. so, what constituted "practical error" in twi terms? The concept was so vague.. vague enough that one could dismiss a *small* matter as adultery and such.. was it using "devilish" words such as "christmas".. "good luck.." "fortune.." "demons" instead of "devil spirits".. or choosing to spend time with family, instead of going to the latest "advance".. or "special".. or not giving more than 12.9 percent of one's income.. or talking to "possessed" trinitarians.. or was it a blank check. One could fill in the blank for whatever one found was "inconvenient" in another's life? obviously from those in the upper ranks, practical error conveniently omitted unbridled rage, adultery, druggings and rapes.. drunkenness.. all kinds of uncleanness.. but show up late to a meeting.. "gotta be careful brotha.. pretty soon the debil will have you talked out of everything.." as far as running a stop sign, even on a continual basis.. I've never seen drivers form the opinion that stop signs are simply unneeded.. and lobby to change the laws of the road to eliminate them.. or think that it is a good thing to run stop signs.. in a strict sense I don't think actually causes a doctrinal change.

Opera Buff, considering that I NEVER saw such a form either, having sent in abs for over two years at a stretch.. and nobody else I knew ever saw anything like it..I'd say it probably was a "mistake" you got it.. maybe it was intended for whoever was running the branch..

I don't think you were so much different than most here.. I used to look everything up.. I had "fun" with my wow group.. when I could.. now whether it really determined whether it was true or not.. it may have determined or agreed with what was agreed upon at the moment.. I think the experience.. it may have been less scripted than the days in the eighties, nineties.. but it was still scripted nonetheless..

that's kind of what I'm thinking.. the salary at supposedly cash-strapped christian "ministry".. no way it would pay.. what is he really doing.. hob-knobbing with a few who have $5000.00 to spend in a discretionary manner.. who he can "grace" with his presence.. what is he REALLY playing at..

I usually prefer to put multiples of millenium posts in Silly.. have to have some kind of fun..

How people can just sit around though.. and debate doctrinal trivialities like there's no tomorrow.. and keep both eyes closed to or justify rampant abuse and bad behavior.. yeah, I was there once too.. I made excuses for loy's and others foul mouths every bit as efficiently as others.. It must be something in the water.. and it goes on and on.. I think you are right about the ebola or mold analogy.. the very last twi offshoot meeting I attended.. a few years ago.. the main teaching in a nutshell: "why everybody who doesn't think like us are possessed, or at least greatly influenced by debils.." no kidding.. I smiled, bobbed my head up and down like everybody else.. left after the meeting.. took a long hot shower, and never went back..

another thing to consider.. practically EVERY SINGLE "leader" in that organization were trained by, with or followed the man who could "biblically" convince staff it was a godly thing to "loan" him their wives (documented in at least one instance), or enabled him.. to argue with them, is just to argue with insanity, in my opinion..

as far as "what can be done.." I think it depends on what you want to do.. if you want to keep some lines of communication open, maybe don't argue with them.. I think it just feeds the beast.. it actually gives them the polarity that they WANT. Some people in, their self-worth depends on being different, being right, at least in their own eyes..

Welcome to the cafe friend. I think if one can doctrinally justify wife swapping, they are rather sick to begin with.. now if they can convince otherwise God-loving people it's the thing to do.. I'd say they are more than sick, they are dangerous. At least you partly understand some of the mentality involved here.. drawing from way doctrine, even suggesting that sin CAN make one sick.. I rebel frem it only based on the source..

I remember one of your earlier posts Tzaia.. you seemed to think money was rather "tight" in the organization.. isn't this trip kind of "excessive"?

what I find interesting is how they can find enough people in today's economy with $4,000 in discretionary spendable cash.. to make the "deal" worth doing.. "hurry, hurry hurrayyyy.. only room for forty-five.." who pays js and wife's way? with current conditions, the only thing that comes to my mind is "out of touch".. but it's just an opinion I guess..

The sad thing is inside of a couple of hours, for the public, and the store, it was back to business as usual.. personally, I couldn't cross a blood stained threshhold to get a "deal"..

I understand if one puts up an electric fence, a cow only has to make contact with it only once.. maybe twice. As soon as the association is made of pain at the outside barrier of the property, one can turn the fence off, and the cow will not venture there again. One can taunt the cow to go look, see if there's better pasture on the outside.. in my case, I went to look.. loy ranted on about the evils of civic organizations, how they were basically useless and self-serving, full of devils and corrupt.. so I looked. It was a little painful, at first. I think those who are left in the pasture, for the most part, are those who cannot consciously break the conditioning..

I think it depends on who is "sick". If it's someone else, who they have NO CLUE what they are going through, the causes or lack of causes, the physical and emotional ramifications and all, it's due to lack of God's protection.. unbelief in the life of the one whom is sick.. If it is THEM.. it's not a "sickness".. it's a "challenge".. being attacked by the hosts of hell, an "opportunity" to rise up and BELIEVE.. after all, *we* know *we* are right, don't we? I think it's a sickness or blindness, in the head. That's probably why it is so frustrating to deal with..

Frank, did he say who "they" were, or was it assumed "they" were disgruntled followers, or debils or something? what an "educated" response.. "they really got to you.." anyway.. isn't it interesting.. an internet search for "the rise and expansion of the christian church" yeilds little more than a few negative references to the old organization and loy boy's not even second rate work.. and a half a dozen used copies for sale, ranging mostly from $9.95 with shipping to maybe $25 which includes an "autographed" business card.. book supposedly in "pristine" condition.. good luck selling a copy for $25.00.. that's about what it originally sold for, did it not? Considering inflation and such, even that's a loss. how low has the "work" fallen.. you'd think the whole academic world "missed it" somewhere, wouldn't you..

I think the reason innies revere this *great* work is the same reason they think current vey productions are on the cutting edge of christian "entertainment"..

When I was in, I thought the book offered too much and too little.. I felt it was way too long.. whole paragraphs and painfully overexagerated detail which only gave what one might understand with a trivial reading of the book of Acts to begin with.. so lengthy.. it was like.. "I'll show you what kind of opinion you oughter have.." dry rambling.. page after page, paragraph after paragraph..

Yeah.. what's amazing.. it just delayed the rush by a couple of hours.. it's sick in every way I can think of.. God have mercy on the guy's family..