Ham

every person that has crossed my path.. it's been for a reason.. and for the most part, I've figured out why.. even "the kid".. maybe he's not "spirtual" enough yet to figure it out.. :) maybe I'm a voice, from the future.. I've had some of these voices.. I wish I had listened sometimes..

One thing I know.. I got his attention. Therefore.. my hands are clean in this matter.. whatever happens, the blood is on their hands, should they shed it..

The sad thing is the kid probably regards me as an enemy.. when I'm anything but.. just another "critic".. too bad.. the current "advisors" that surround him would probably say "go for it, BE gawd.."

what I find interesting Frank.. the "teacher" really was entirely unqualified to teach the subject to begin with.. his legitimate degree was in homiletics, was it not? And the "doctorate".. I won't even go there today.. as far as christian and family relationships, and as a COUNSELLOR, I think he was worse than a buffoon. what counsellor, in their right or professional mind, would exhibit pornography to young adults, with the distinct possibility and more that they may be viewed by those under age? Especially the doggy video.. the troubling part is how effortlessly he described copulation, body parts, etc.. to a group a third his age.. I remember his claims how it was all so wonderful, and "kids" wouldn't have to learn about sex in the streets.. honestly, I don't see much difference. Learn about sex from a lecherous bar keeper, or learn about it from a lecherous rogue "preacher".. same difference..

It's almost like he's clueless.. maybe he is. I really think, as a self-esteemed "prophet" or "minister" or whatever ministry hat he chooses to wear, he really believes that: 1. He's right. Yep. "the word" ALWAYS "works", doesn't it? That may be part of the reason he doesn't have a whole heck of a lot to do with other christians.. with different views than his.. 2. As one who "labors in the word" he is worthy and deserving of our support. Financially, physically, mentally.. if not *him*.. then his *ministry*. I think he really thinks the "believers" owe him a living.. and if not him, his organization.. his "package", unlike anything since the earth cooled.. *his* conjunction of "truths".. beliefs apparently are not negotiable..

"Counsel" in the old ministry rapidly disintegrated.. from trying to perform "psychic surgery" on people with bone knives and chisels.. to analysis why the "word" wasn't "moving" like it oughter.. they then began to offer unsolicited advice as to one's sex life, finances, hobbies, family relationships, child raising.. what kind of art one should display in the house, what kind of music is appropriate.. then went as far as to try "discern spirits" and weed out "the bad people" who were supposedly the root of the manufactured "problem".. then went as far as to dictate where people live, whether they could buy a house, under what terms.. I wonder if the new group will undergo the same metamorphosis.. what will they do when the "word" doesn't "move like it oughter.."

Thanks for your comments Penworks. I think they have some relevance to a sub-topic of this thread.. I'm not belittling anyone's real love and concern and dedication, even back then, but large numbers of corps graduates had the distinction: "incompetent to counsel". In other words, from what I read from your comments, and those of DWBH on other threads, the corps went through training that really didn't prepare most of them to counsel people with real problems. casting out "devils", "exhorting" people to stay "positive" and sweep problems under the rug- works nice if people don't have real "problems" to begin with.. then it's a matter of sales. Sell them the "problem".. then miraculously provide the solution.. who needs a degree in psychology or psychiatry when they can have an "in depth spiritual perception and awareness"? I know of a "counselling" session of a later corps lady rev gave to a couple.. and shrieked "you are POSSESSED" at the husband because he would not do "exactly as I tell you" to resolve some issue.. and the advice had the potential of causing quite a bit of harm.. I just wonder if this new group is going to follow the same pattern. Seem to, so far.. as far as outside inquiry is concerned. so.. next question. Who on staff has at least a Master's degree in psychology, or even psychiatry? Is the highest degree held a bachellor's in history or business?

Seems every year, it's getting harder to hide behind the separationist issues, when one's actions cause harm..

So.. if you think you're going back to the "purity" of the "good old days".. before loy, before rosie.. what DO you think of mental health professionals, counsellors, and the like? from DWBH on another thread.. I put the same question to you now. What do you think? Is it "the verd, the verd, and nothing but der verd..", and modern psychology and psychiatry was born in a seance? Do you FEAR the practice of modern psychiatry? Do you think that devils abound in psychiatric practice? Or do you think that all one needs is a "hopped up" holy spirit walk, "all nine all the time..".. cast out the devil, remove the cause, and "voila"- the person is "cured"? Do you think that god or jesus oppose these professional, theraputic relationships? just a side thought. Just perhaps.. if your brand of "therapy" goes "sour", some jurisdictions MAY hold you liable. Legally and financially that is. I personally don't have the time to check it out.. but before I hung out a shingle I'd consider it..

Words from Penworks on another thread, might be relevant here. So "new" group, what are you going to do that is any bit different? How are your "ministers" going to "run to serve"? Are you equipping them with the illusion that a few Dale Carnegie motivational techniques, and a few "positive" bible teachings will solve people's *real* problems? Will this "in depth" spiritual(?) perception and awareness you claim to be fostering in the followers actually DO something.. other than give them regrets for the damage they've done in a few years? Or like the way, will you only be looking for people who are young, successful, and healthy to begin with to "showcase" the "success" of your ministry? just a few more questions.. :)

Welcome to the Cafe, Green Hornet. I would consider that those who spoke up often were bullied, given the "bum's rush", marked as possessed, placed under house arrest in at least one case, defamed, etc..

I dunno.. seems he'd finally get it.. never going to have the mog worship and all, at least to the extent he had in twi.. kinda pathetic ending for someone with a little potential, addicted to praise, beating every bush, working every ex-wayer he can find to listen to his "wise counsel".. even goes as far as to "leak" his stuff here, to shake up a few more phone calls and emails.. "just call him.." no thanks. No more "christian" motivational techniques for me.. The first letter here, I imagine he got a couple hundred phone calls.. the next, maybe twenty five- the last one, I think I could here the crowd booing.. It's like a golf tournament. I imagine if you can't get a ball already on the green in the hole with less than ten puts or so, the crowd starts jeering..

I always wondered what the *bigwigs* would do if one served them deviled eggs as a dinner entre..

Here's something Lennon wrote about one of these "menogawd" that couldn't keep his zipper up..

I don't hold in anger either.. you may not pick that up from my posts. I think the problem is that we are dealing with "collective" sins- sins and transgressions, not against individuals, but practically against a whole collective body of individuals, maybe even against humanity.. The betrayal of trust for the victims is horrendous, but what about the rest who buy the public personna, and extoll the virtues of der manogawd for the world? We were all damaged.. some irrepairably.. some sing the vicster's virtues despite hearing the truth.. I think it's a whole different category of iniquity involved here. If it were just me.. I think it would be far easier to just let it go. Like the guy who "borrowed" seventy dollars from me in 1975, who I haven't seen for dust since.. so what. I let go of that, even without an apology.. or explanation..

I'm not entirely sure of what I believe, either.. :) I kinda think the vicster is in a backroom somewhere, getting the beating of his life from some kind of "committee" because this time through life he didn't "get it".. I think there are a lot more powerful souls than he.. Now Judas.. I dunno. I've heard a few varying viewpoints, and not all strictly biblical.. not sure what to think yet.

I dunno.. forgive a blood-sucking megalomaniac? I don't know if one really can.. if he goes on to wrong one's own brothers and sisters, and never repents, isn't it the same as doing the same thing to you again? just a thought..

and like a *true* pharisee, he compassed land and sea to find that one, *special*, dedicated disciple, whom he could make two-fold the child of hell that he himself proved to be..

Paul, if one believes the story, had an encounter with the Almighty. Now if I had such an encounter, "hey dude, you're in the wrong profession here.." might it have a little bearing on my conduct after the encounter? Now the victoid claimed to have had a life-changing encounter with the almighty. I can only see two possibilities.. 1. he lied to gain trust, to legitimatize his false ministry. 2. he told the truth. but in his case, he got worse.. "mere" adultery turned to unabashed abuse, druggings, cruel manipulation.. in this case, unlike Paul, the almighty proved powerless to produce any kind of change. The vicster would be then the kind of character that COULDN'T change. It's a valid comparison.. Paul proved to be faithful.. the vicster proved to be only faithful to his lusts..

I see your point rascal.. I think you're saying to rely on the abuser's system of ethics to judge, or just understand the abuser, just is insane to begin with. It's a carefully crafted belief system, that leaves the perpetrator above recrimination.. purposely leaves loopholes that the mogster can (generally) exclusively rely upon for escape.. He was angry, threw a fit, screamed and ripped some poor soul apart.. oh, he was *spiritually* angry. Maybe his *needs* weren't being met.. then the fornication and adultery (and worse) issue.. oh, he needs his *needs* met, so he's not distracted, so he can bring forth der mighty wordagawd.. can steal with practical impunity.. I came face to face with this kind of iniquity.. with confrontation, it hisses back.. it thinks that it's righteous..

which makes to me, the claims of some in offshoots, that *some* problems are due to debils, which may be *simply* cast out, or removed by ministering, highly suspect. so you "cast out the spirits". Ever think that the victim just went along with the gag? considering.. you've started out with an otherwise normal, healthy individual, somehow convinced them they're loaded to the gills with spirits, uncleanness and compromised thinking.. I think it's anti-psychiatry..

There were a half a dozen legitimate looking businesses with the same address, a restaurant, electronics store, computer place.. but no financial office like you describe. Sounds like a strip mall with a bunch of suites.. *almost* anybody could open a fly by night shop in one of these in certain districts.. they don't appear to have a published phone number either..

for that matter, *we* might be the minority. Even worse, maybe *we* are their some kind of "pet"..

I think maybe the entrance to the advanced class was a threshhold. By that time, they could say practically anything they wanted, and we still stayed.. yeah, I think the *real* programming began at the advanced class.. I remember people coming back from it, far different from what they were before. For some, that's not a compliment..

Then the excuse is often, "look at the apostle paul.. christian killer, etc, etc.." but I think the example deserves to be addressed. Yes, he was plain rabid, going after christian "flesh", and was evil. It took a REAL MIRACLE for him to change.. I think it took a "miracle" to the extent that he COULD NOT REFUSE to change. I mean.. the lord himself appearing, saying in essence, "you're on the wrong team, fella.." what possible reply could one possibly have? "f you.."? then he didn't return to iniquity either.. moving up to 1942.. just SUPPOSE for a moment, that the lord appeared to herr vicster, with an AUDIBLE VOICE. and corroborating mystic snow on the gas pumps.. he would have a choice. either "ok, let's go with it.." or "f you." given that the appearance indeed did occur, every single time he laid a filthy paw on one of our sisters, he would know the reality of the lord being present.. hence, his answer, "f you. I'll do what I damn well please." On the other hand, if the voice, and snow were a product of his imagination, he was *only* a twisted, evil, false prophet.. Rascal, I think this illustrates the difference between just being a "screw up" and "just plain evil". One man could be FORCED to abandon iniquity, the other could not.