Ham

The eye-burning claims were made in twlil..

I don't think we were anywhere near equipped to help. We were trained how to behave about the mogster, how to witness, how to run classes, set up and run meetings, how and when to give money.. but when it came to actually helping someone, I don't think so. There are people that I have no idea what happened to either.. I think we were trained to be helpless. add to that the stigma attached to seeking outside help.

Yeah. Well.. the difference between the two I think.. a real pastor has had several years of post secondary school education.. they are often qualified to counsel people with real problems.. they often do some real good in the community.. and for the most part, they have an untarnished character. Should they choose the plagiarizing, womanizing, abusive path, it's gone in a heartbeat.. I've seen it happen in my own town. plus "preaching da word" is only one small part of a real pastor's duties I think. I may not agree with them, but I can respect them if it is earned, and not based on some unique belief I happen to agree with at the time. I really think if it were not for the "god" bizz, vic very well would have been a gangster.. some of these guys, I don't think have the potential or inclination to do anything else. Like a *lot* of old "leadership" who left the way- all they know how to do is "move da word.." get in front of a microphone, keep the mouth moving, make the same lame claims.. start an offshoot.. keep the donations rolling in, run the gawd bizz.. there are likely more, but I personally know of only three who left vic's tutelage, and plain knew they lacked qualifications, real, honest training, and credentials, and did something about it..

About a year before I was out.. I had about enough of the wayspeak.. so I tried a little experiment. It was cruel.. at "leader"'s house.. in a movie, the character was suddenly afraid. I said, on purpose: "he sure is SPOOKED.." "leader's" mouth dropped open.. he started twitching.. I thought he was going to go into a fit or something.. "sss, sss ssss SPOOKED?? SPOOKED?? sss, sss.. hisss, SPOOKED???" then he succumbed to a fit of laughter.. it probably went in a file somewhere on me..

and qualifications, previous training, and half an education are not required. All one needs is a sufficiently plausible "supernatural" experience, or two. Or more. The more, the better. Some snowy gas pumps, a voice from heaven, utter a few words in an "unknown" tongue over and over again.. in fact.. all of the bad spots on the resume may be "miraculously" scrubbed off with the right kind of holy water, or some claim the blood of the lord.. "that was mah PAST suh.. how dare you impugn my honah and drudge it up..."

It's like.. no longer does need one need to market illegal substances like heroin, cocaine.. or perform robberies at gunpoint. Why rob someone, when one can convince them that gawd almighty REQUIRES them, to hand over the money, VOLUNTARILY? The real success lies in the fact that one may then "rob" the same person, time and again, on a regularly scheduled basis.. The mogster can even give themselves a raise on occasion.. not just tne percent, but twelve, fifteen, or more if the victim wants gawd's good favors..

Mstar's wikipedia reference to the fictional Elmer Gantry caught my attention. In the early 1900's, the proliferation of organized crime and resulting mayhem eventually got the federal officials attention. Whole departments were formed with the sole purpose of eradicating their organizations and products. Capone was finally aprehended on TAX EVASION charges. The mobsters were beginning to find business a lot harder to do.. better armed cops, better intelligence efforts by authorities, better strategies.. trained men.. slowly more difficult to bribe locals.. what to do? Get out of the gangster business? Hardly. Just change gears.. at least the smart ones did. Get in the religion business. Sure.. easy money, don't have to REALLY learn a new skill.. still don't have to lift a finger for manual labor.. The government will SUBSIDIZE you. You are suddenly untouchable- file the right papers, and you're TAX EXEMPT. And like mr. Gantry, one may continue to womanize, guzzle drambuie like it's water, enjoy all of the good material things of life, and if one plays their cards right, one will emerge from scandal and certain ruin never fully discredited, and triumphant. And one will have hordes of VOLUNTEERS to come to the rescue.. to make excuses, rationalizations, anything short of claiming to have been duped.. and the perpetrator doesn't have to give any REAL account for his actions.. It's the one business venture that I know of where one may go from public enemy number one to "manogawd" in the blink of an eye..

Capone. When he wasn't murdering, "womanizing", and otherwise making mahem, at times, he could actually be a nice guy..

I'd compare him to Semon Dye in Caldwell's Journeyman.. He womanized, drank, cursed and cheated the men out of their money and goods.. I know, he was a fictional character. But Caldwell drew his character likely from his own experience.. before the economy was good enough that these sycophants could start their "ministry" and have poor dupes to bring money to them, some of them had to hit the road, and work the people in rural countrysides for sustenance..

I think he was a "nazi" in practice. JCING was his own personal version of Mein Kampf, and outlines his "struggle" against mainline christianity.. trinitarians or adherents to the belief that the dead are alive were subject to his form of "antisemitism".. trinitarians were even labelled as deluded or possessed.. he had his own crowds of cheering wierwille youth.. we cheered in public, we even cheered at his taped classes.. he had as Geo said, the brown shirts, and the even more committed, loyal "guard".. he even had a close circle of firearm toting goons and lackies that wouldn't think twice about offing somebody, or even laying their lives down to protect him from any who dared offend his "greatness".. I think he at the least emulated Hitler. I think the vicster took a revisionist point of view regarding early christianity.. claimed to have the truth- like it had not been known since the first century.. the true, hidden meaning of the bible.. I think his old, loyal guard's life ambition is to raise up the "boys from Brazil".. Was he a *real* Nazi? I don't know.. but there seem to be quite a few observable similarities.

Didn't he accuse Graham and Bright of being in cahoots with the government over this, so that the government could get *da money*, instead of it's supposed rightful destination, the hands of the mogsters of our day and time? That's kinda how I remember it..

I dunno about racial.. but the religious and spiritual superiority was in my opinion practically the same. It perseveres in *his* organization to this day.. the mighty prevailing household.. the thought of superiority is appealing to many, obviously including myself at one time or to some extent. How many of the corps would have been ss? I'd have to say, some of them. Some of them carried out orders without question, thinking or conscience.. I met others who never could. we all cheered at the rallies.. now it's a sickening thought for me..

that explains his little cursing and screaming debacle, ending with launching a Living Bible to the back of the brc because he didn't like how they handled Romans 13.. oh no. It's gotta be da ministry that is owed da money..

I always wondered that, too. out of three uncles and my dad, they ALL went in the draft, except for one uncle- he had a severe foot deformity..

Add to all this.. in ww2, he decided he'd be better off at the homefront, instead of going to war against da faderland.. gave some lame excuse like da lord would rather have him back in the good ole usa, where he could preach da word, chase church secretaries and the like.. start a significantly self-overrated organization following on the heels of the Jesus movement..

Some people call that a proof by construction. If the theory fits all of the requirements, it's proved.. I don't know what all the requirements are, but you bring up a few good points. 1. His heritage. And he was damn proud of it.. 2. He did carry the Myth of the Six Million, hoax of the twentieth century (I think) and Koestler's book, in his bookstore.. and denied, or greatly minimized the horrors of the Holocaust.. for that matter, he "demonized" Catholics, homosexuals, and others who didn't agree with his theology.. 3. He subscribed to and promoted every lunatic fringe conspiracy theory, that served his purposes.. 4. He surrounded himself with armed and consciousless goons who would pretty much do his bidding.. 5. He claimed to have a basically *infallible* message.. I dunno. Personally, I think these points would suggest that he COULD be a Nazi.. others seem to be able to take these facts, roll them together, and come to the conclusion that he was some kinda manogawd..

and the key to make it all work? Be iconoclastic.. be "special", "unique".. to reduce the differences and arguments to solely that of doctrines and beliefs. Then one may generally get away with DOING what one "fool well pleases.." I think it's a "Clintonesque" strategy. Leave enough doctrinal dead bodies for the press to choke on, and perhaps they'll never catch up with perpetrator..

Interesting observation. Seems most of us have a blind spot.. arguing who is more blind is kinda futile at times.. I don't know if it's a blind spot, more than an eye patch, to keep the real light of reality from looking in.. I think in the end, we will all agree that we are all wrong..

actually, I think that is the heart of his new "redemptive view" of der vey.. it was "bad", but it wasn't really "that bad".. if he paints the old ministry in it's true light.. then how does he paint his "ministry"? "error slowly crept in.." in other words, he believes, or claims there was a time when all was holy, pure and wonderful.. when the reality of the matter, the organization and herr "doctor" appear to be corrupt from day one..

I think jl would have been ahead of the game if he just left it at that..

If one wants to teach math, chemistry, english, physics, or other field "unlike it has been known since the earth cooled".. one needs even MORE than seventeen years of formal education.. more like twenty five or so.. I think in a year's time, one might come to understand someone else's take on scripture.. how do you propose to impart this level of "knowledge" and "wisdom"? will the "inductees" emerge miraculously with a working knowledge of Hebrew, Greek, Aramaic? or will they emerge with a *closed mind* and YOUR take on the bible?

what about another statement.. "the way to a man's heart is through his penis.." where is THAT in the bible? maybe that was true for the vicster himself.. but I wouldn't want to be painted with the same brush..

"in depth spiritual perception and awareness.." hah. all I perceive, is an intellectully dumbed down "renewed mind" self or otherwise inflicted egotistical attitude that CAN'T consider any other valid options.. well, that's the end of my analysis of corps principle one.. what's next.. hmm. To receive training in the whole word, so as to be able to teach others.. how can one do this in only one year? To "be able to teach" in an academic sense requires something like seventeen years of school work..

Not today.. I think they are very much alike.. more so now than ever.. No *real* charismatic leader.. in my opinion, rosie doesn't exude "greatness".. and "twigs" are likely soooo bland, it might be more intellectually challenging to stuff ice down one's pants.. all that seems to be left, is hype, and their *charismatic leaders* can't cough up very much of that.. all that's left seems to be a form of vain boasting.. j.l. has his "package" "unparalleled" in content, since the first century.. rosie and gang have their *ministry* of "over sixty years of *biblical* research".. it's really pathetic.. what have either organization done *biblically* in recent years? They CLAIM to be "biblical" organizations.. one has left a trail of abuse, manipulation, spiritualistic practices, intrigue, lawsuits.. and a "no compromise" position as to what they PERCEIVE to be the will of gawd.. the other one, well, it's left us.. another trail of abuse, manipulation, spiritualistic practices, intrigue, lawsuits.. and a "no compromise" position as to what they PERCEIVE to be the will of gawd..

ya know.. in that little "diversion" I was on between Bluefield and Princeton WV.. I could have been a "god for a day"..but I chose not to be.. I don't know if this makes much sense.. I told the "bigwig" in charge about this.. and he said I should have told the poor people I was lucifer, or something.. that they were serving the wrong god.. Weird in a way.. I could have actually had a following at the time.. :) sorry, too much power for me.. heheh.