Tom

Nah, you think it is a good idea - you put a class together warning people. It would probably sell better. I never thought people should be charged for the truth.

Hi Gen, that was me who said God will work with you if you try it. He is, after all, the Teacher. As much as we might want to learn, or not want to learn, he wants to teach us more than we want to learn. One can teach another how to walk in what is being referred to here as "The Other 6 Manifestations." We have a fundamental problem here in this discussion because of the terms we're using - not our fault, it was the way we were taught. That is to say, there are no other 6 manifestations; there is only THE manifestation of the Spirit, & it is given to every man according to his believing. There are 9 ways this manifestation of the Spirit is energized - all at God's option - but, as we have discussed, God is more willing to energize than we are ready to receive the energizing. Wierwille pointed this out, but continued to use the 9 manifestations terminology, a practice (using unbiblical terminology) that was patently against his own professed principles of working the Word, yet he did so - with the usually suspected horrible results. To discuss the usual suspects is vital, but off topic - shucks. Maybe later. Anyway, it IS possible to teach another how to walk via the Spirit without there being any manipulation involved. I did this with a young woman/girl, what the freak, we were kids, back in NY. It was supposedly a NoNo to do so, but I thought that was a crock because that was basically how all of us learned back in NY. Anyway, this young woman was - well, let's put it this way - when she walked into a place, all the guys noticed her entrance, all the gals noiticed her entrance, & any spirits in the place noticed her entrance. She was beautiful, bold, & a believer, so all kinds of action started - & she really didn't know what the hell was going on. So, I taught her. We would do stuff like go to Greenwich Village (didn't I already share this?), hang out for a while getting comfortable with the place, tell God to drop the veil, & watch and engage in the spiritual "life of the place." Spirits are pompous and prideful and generally can't resist strutting their stuff. It was all rather fun and fascinating, & we learned a lot. Besides the particulars (it's just amazing walking this way), we learned the basic ground rules - then we didn't feel like idiots with power who didn't know how to use it. When we got tired of dealing, we'd ask God to put the veil back down, He would, & we'd talk about what happened. Like I said, God is more willing to teach us than we want to learn. It's different for sure, but it is not like rocket science figuring it out. I mean you either engage because you want to & God says you can, or you argue about whether it is possible to do so. VP came to NY in 1972 to do an Advanced Class. It wasn't scheduled. He did so because we were all generally already experiencing all the various (9) ways God can energize the Spirit. Did he want to teach us more perfectly how to walk with the Teacher (God) teaching us? Or did he want to control what was happening & strenthen his role as the teacher? Some combination of both? I don't know. Really, I don't care. Point is God can teach us, & we can work with him & each other in learning how to walk behind the veil - where we already are spiritially. Tom

Hi geisha, I also think that our able God has so lovingly guarded his Word that we are able to ascertain the the import of his communication to us. I just don't think that any canon arrived at by man is equivalent to God's testimony that we should put our faith in it as we would to God's Word.

Actually, it looks like I am saying you are doing this. No offense intended. My remarks about presumption were directed towards those who first prescribed the canon, not toward those who labor under the prescription. We've all got presumptions to live with:).

I am not sure that when Paul says "All scripture" in 2 Tim. 3:16, he is referring only to the Hebrew Scriptures. After all, he says "All scripture," not "the Hebrew scriptures as we know them today." I tend to think that Paul's thinking was bigger than that, especially when he was speaking about writings inspired by God. After all, there he was - writing writings inspired by God about writings inspired by God. I would not want to entertain any notion that would limit Paul's understanding about that which he was writing about when he said "All scripture." I would not be surprised to find out that even in Paul's day, there were scriptures referred to in the scriptures that were being read that were not in the accepted “canon” of the day – lost books. I also am not convinced that Paul thought of the then present “canon” of scripture as a closed set. From that, I would have to infer then that Paul did not know what he was doing when he was participating in the writing of Timothy. He did not realize that he was participating in writing writings inspired of God even though that’s what he was speaking about. I find that hard to believe. Personally, I think Paul was very aware, not only of what he was saying, but of what he was doing. I think his understanding of scripture inspired by God was intimate. God inspired it. It was outside the box and above the authority of those who would presume to hand us a canon to go by, both then and now. Please note that I'm not saying you are doing this. Tom

RE: In, on, the Spirit, the New Man, the One Body: It seems to me that Jesus Christ sent the Comforter, the One Spirit into which all believers drink, rivers of living water flowing into and out of our bellies, fostering our growth into the One Body, Jesus Christ being the head, all growth coming from the head, we being members in particular in the One Body, growing into the realization of the One New Man - Christ. That seems to me to be a significantly higher calling than the OT.

Wow, Mark, that seems like a real thread ender. I sort of feel like I shouldn't say anything after that - but, of course, I already did. Well said - you have cut to the heart of things - thank you. Reading your post is a most excellent way to start the day. Thanks again.

I went to an art festival last weekend called the Artigras. There was one exhibit that had the artist's statement in front. I forget the exact words and the extent of the statement, but it started something like this: "I have come to a slow, quiet revelation that God is in everything good. It is my ultimate aim as an artist to show people God in a physical image." Yeah, people say there is an injunction somewhere in the OT against making an image of God, but I don't see that - feel free to show me, but all I see in that context is make no image to bow down & worship - nothing against making an image in celebration of the light of God that is around us in everything good. I thought, "What a cool thing to involve one's life in!" Genesis 1:4 And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness.

I beg to differ Sunesis, at least to the extent that the reason - always - that God energizes is to heal because we need it, & we need it no less today than we did back in the day. The reason we stopped seeing the extent of the spiritual action was because the Adversary had made his way into the inside of the movement sufficiently to bide his time waiting for the little bit of leaven to leaven the whole lump. In retrospect, the great volume of the confrontation ceased in a moment - in the moment coinciding with the initiation of the takeover of the revival in CA, NY, &, I suppose, KS. The witness to the Way, the Lord Jesus Christ was, at that time, being supplanted by the witnessing to the Wat International Inc. Yet, miracles still continued, & still do to this day. Wherever God is, healing happens.

Wow, much dialogue here. I'd just like to add that God is not stingy with the energizing of his spirit within. No, they're not just tricks for our amusement - that characterization fits energizings from evil spiritual sources with their own agenda, but God is more willing to energize than we are willing to recieve those energizings. He is "looking" for those who will believe in his willingness to be active in our lives to help us and to help others. Yes, it is a different realm. There is much learning involved, and silliness brings consequences (you don't strike me as someone into silliness in this realm &, like you said, like the Word says, you ask God for a piece of bread, he is not going to give you a stone), but there is much grace in this realm - especially for the learner. God is into showing the learner the how of these things, just so the learner can learn if for no other immediate reason - much like Samuel with Eli when he was learning to recognize the voice of the Lord. Back in the day, when we were first learning this stuff, many of us had some witchcrafty backgrounds, &, many of us weren't completely spiritually clean in the beginning. I remember this one fellow was sick (fellow who was very deeply into Eastern spirituality before getting into the Word). He asked this other fellow to minister healing to him, & he did, & the guy got healed. You may remember back then we were taught somewhere along the line not to lay hands on someone unless God told you to. Well, the man ministering layed hands on the man he was ministering to & was immediately blinded. The man who was ministered to turned around and ministered to the man who ministered to him, & he was healed of his blindness. Crazy stuff - didn't know what we were doing, but it all worked out. In the process, we learned how to deal in the spiritual realm & we were healed in the process. Also, in the beginning, four of us were witnessing on the boardwalk in Long Beach, Long Island. This guy came up to us - as he did, God told me the guy was loaded, & I should be very careful what I did. I thought I was more than a conqueror, & engaged the guy in conversation - sort of forgetting what God had said in the process. Turns out the guy had been into Voodoo all his life, & was more than willing to engage us in all sorts of crazy dangerous magic to show us that his God was more powerful than our God. I'm not stupid intellectually, but pretty soon I realized that he was always a step or two ahead of me in our "conversation." He was minipulating us just exactly where he wanted us. I realized that I wasn't talking to a human, but to a spirit. I was hopelessly outmatched. As soon as you accept the invitation to engage in a proof of power, you have lost. The Adversary knows you've won already - there is no reason to prove it. It is like the Devil telliong Jesus to jump off the mountain. I avoided his manipulations into dangerous magic demonstrations, but, still I was outclassed. At one point, he pulled a hair out of the head of one of the girls who was with us & told her she would be dead in a week. I told God that this was all over my head & he should take over & do something. The guy immediately gave the hair back to the girl, said he was just funning with us, & left. The next day I told my spiritual elder what had happened. I was sort of ....ed. I told him that I was well aquanted with dealing with all kinds of street confrontations, but felt totally ignorant of this spiritual realm, & that I needed to learn if I was going to engage in this realm. His response was that I had learned & everything had worked out fine. Well, I HAD learned a very valuable and basic lesson about engaging in power plays with the Adversary, & relying on God. Also the girl was never afraid in the least. God is a lot more ballsy than I am. Not all confrontations in those days (& there were lots of them, because we wouldn't keep out mouths shut & the Adversary was trying to scare us out of the benefits of learning to walk spiritually) were quite so dicey. Many were in the beginning, but, pretty soon we learned more about what we were doing. Bottom line, it was kick foot, & people got delivered. God is your very personal teacher. Go for it brother. God will open doors. Walk through & learn. Tom

About 4 months after I got involved in the Word, I remember wondering where the power was. I was standing out in a thunder storm at HQ in Ohio. If you've ever been in a bad thunderstorm in Ohio, you know it is like there are bombs going off all around you. I stood there getting soaking wet yelling at God. Then I went to someone I knew who had been around for longer than I and asked him why we didn't know anyone who had all 9 operating. He said he was & so were quite a few others. We were from NY & it was 1972. Not too many places in the Way had things happening like we did in NY in those days - CA, KS. Shortly after that I knew what it was to have God energizing all 9. There are many others. We exchanged experiences. We practiced. It worked. Miracles? Many. You see them? Many of them - not all. No one saw the man possessed with a legion healed - except the man. But others, yes, you see them. It's really much easier when you're around people who are doing it. Then it is not perceived as all this or that. Then it happens. Still mighty impressive sometimes. Just not a total surprise - I mean, you're expecting it, right?

God energizes these operations in people who believe he will. The other 6? The first 3? Whether one group is harder than the other is a human consideration that just serves to allow God to energize one group and not the other. Is one thing harder for God than another? Some people find it easier to discern spirits than to speak in tongues - others the other way. "Groups," denominational teachings, classes, just serve to confuse people sometimes - those times when what's presented is removed from the Word & its practice. People are still being healed. To give a damn whether it happens in the back room or the public street corner is to miss the point - &, so, the reality. Guilt sucks. God meets us in the place of his provision of mercy. He forgives all our iniquities, & he heals all our deseases - not the other way around. We're supposed to be able to walk like Jesus Christ, but in the spiritual realm, we all, at times, don't know how to use our weapons, hesitate to shoot, or don't shoot at all. People hurt as a result, some die, or die sooner. Sucks. Resultant guilt sucks on. My dad is a Marine. He taught me that I haven't lost until I stop shooting back. Classes can be one or two or more steps removed from the reality, but people still know & do, & they can teach you. Ask. God will hook you up. Fxxk the politics. Tom

The Mercy Seat is where God meets us and talks to us and reveals his will for us in the situations we are in. In relation and acceptance of his mercy, he is wide open to us. Tom

It's taken me a long time to come to face my own fallen & unworthy nature. It's a humbling experience. Life is more than food and shelter. I respect those who give that, but we need more. I need more. And it is not in me to give. I need redemption to enter into the realm of the giver of life for that. He intended more. From that we've fallen. To that he raises us up.

Honestly, Spec, I don't think people are meant to learn from the tree of good and evil either all at once or over the long haul. Even today, we are to be wise concerning good and simple concerning evil - avoid it. We are to be adult and wise enough spiritually to have our spiritual senses exercised to descern both good and evil, yet still wise concerning good and simple concerning evil. If one follows evil, they will see evil - big deal. That was called genuine spiritual perception in TWI. All it did was increase unto more ungodliness. The offense multiplied. Evil led the way. If one follows good, they will see the evil as out of course, and also see the way back to the good. God knows. Respect God - enjoy good - be protected from evil (the evil one). Act like God & mess with evil - evil leads the way. Who's the fool? The one who says God is stupid and I'm smart. Same sin visited on all mankind. Justice? Hardly, the grossest injustice. Justice comes with the one who obeyed in the face of the grossest injustice to an innocent life. Even as he is put down by man's judgement, he picks us up to where we belong & forgives us our stupidity. Gotta love the guy! Tom

It was actually the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, not just knowledge, & the result of eating of it was that they would be as gods. I'm not sure what that means, but it is obviously something more serious than walking on the grass. Taking God's position? Treason? As you said, Garth, letting the punishment fit the crime is after all a biblical concept.

Just a quick note here - sorry if it is outside the context of the discussion, but you prove a negative by disproving its positive. That is the principle VP was using when he said that if Jesus is not God anywhere in the Word, he is not God everywhere in the Word. My understanding of who Jesus Christ is has grown, and is growing, into something that is amazing, extraordinary, and exquisite in every regard. Jesus asked whom do you think I am, and Peter answered the son of God. Jesus said the Father had shown him that. If the Father had to show Peter that when he had the man right in front of him, how is it that years later a bunch of guys get together, discuss it, and decide who Jesus - not only that, but who God is & come up with the Trinity? I think that whole process is patently fallacious. People can't DEFINE GOD. Perhaps that is a point aside for a different discussion, but there are too many points where Jesus doesn't equal God for me to seriously consider that he is God, Trinitarian rationals notwithstanding. Then I would no longer be studying the Word, I'd be studying Trinitarian philosophy - or "theology" if you insist. But I'd be studying what men tell me God is. Without that limitation, I'm free to let the Word and the comforter teach me without getting sidetracked. And, as I said, the teaching has been extraordinary. I think VP's treatment of who Jesus Christ is - well, it broke the mold which is good, but ultimately the character of Jesus winds up being relatively (in juxtaposition to the truth) very flat and VP's teaching antichrist - the nature of which blinds the eyes. So we have a flat Jesus on one hand and the Trinity on the other, and the bread of life lies on table in plain view, yet unseen and uneaten. I'm by no means discounting the real relationships that people - on either side of the discussion - have with the Lord. I know my words may be taken as egotistical, but I believe its the truth. Comforter, teach us. Tom

Okay, but so? Maybe I'm missing the connection here, but that speaks to the origin of sin and sickness and death on a grand scale. It doesn't follow that everytime someone is sick, it is because of sin in their life. As a matter of fact, VP taught the opposite, negating the idea that sickness in the life of an individual (and any death in part involved) can be interpreted as having a direct spiritual connection. No?

Clearly? Honestly, waysider, I never considered any time that I took the AC that VP was suggesting anything other than that when you are sick, your body is dying in part. When enough of your body is sick, you die. I don't know why anyone would consider any other suggestion. The "sickness/death" relationship is spiritual? What the heck does that even mean? If it is not even clear what that means, how can it be clear that was his suggestion?

Small observation: You've just changed from the majority of the posts on this thread that were objecting to the substance of the subject to objecting to the man and his presentation of the substance. You accept the substance, but object to the man who presented it. If the substance was so obvious - "9th grade biology," it makes those who objected to it look awfully stupid. Personally, I think it was a 1/2 way intelligent discussion. If so many objected to it, maybe it was a valid & necessary point for VP to bring it up as a point of truth - his supposed pretense to the authority of truth dispite your belittling of it as "9th grade biology" notwithstanding. Tom

Way to cut to the quick, girl. Love ya, Happy New Year!! Tom

Some things come to mind that I remember from TWI. "Within TWI it was supposed to happen due to uncontrolled thoughts and ungodly habit patterns." True, but, as I remember, they were more specific as to the process. Devils cannot enter a healthy mind (most possession takes place in the mind). An individual might come to believe doctrines of devils before possession (there are other ways). Example: I read Sci-fi & Fantasy. A recurring theme in some of this reading (found in other genres also) is telepathy. As I read more of this, I came to believe in telepathy and the various philosophies (doctrines of devils) that made it sound "reasonable." One day, I went into the local bar with a friend of mine for a beer, & we got into a conversation about telepathy. We both said that we believed in it. On a whim (inspiration), I thought of a 3 digit number, & told my friend to give me a 3 digit number. He did, & it was the number I was thinking of. I was fairly impressed. He seemed incredulous. Then, as quickly as I had asked, he told me to give him a 3 digit number. I did, & it was the right number. We did this and similar things back & forth 3 or 4 times. It worked perfectly - then, at once, it stopped working at all. RE: Process: Had I not already believed in this doctrine of devils, I would not have engaged in the “experiment” in the bar. Had I not already believed in this doctrine, & the telepathy happened anyway (which I don't think is possible without some rather shocking event to my neural net), I would have found the experience extremely unsettling – but, as I gather, I think the mental thought patterns must be grooved beforehand for the possession to take place. RE: Possession: In the experience above, this “"possession"” if I am using the word correctly is not the sort of thing where I couldn't control my thinking in any regard. It was a simple matter of a spirit with a particular function, or set of functions, energizing a thought pathway (a synapse or a few) for a brief period. An easy matter for this spirit as I was already set up for it. RE: Trap door. I think this doctrine of devils consideration figures into the healing required after a spirit is cast out. Unless the doctrine is corrected, the spirit will have an easy time getting back in. The rest of the story: It wasn’t too long before 5 or 6 of my friends were doing this sort of networked. Enter a friend from HS who was into magic – real magic. I “learned” a few things from him (I put learned in quotes because I really had no idea how these things were happening – just a few philosophies to back them up). I remember being at an Acid party (talk about oiling the pathways! I did some card tricks for some of the girls at the party. At one point – the last trick – I simply had 5 people pull a card from the deck & put it face down. Then I simply told them all what their card was. But, really, it was the same spirit, & the same exact “trick” that the spirit had pulled in the bar. I spent hours on a trip with one of my friends without speaking. We just road each other’s thoughts or travelled one thought wave together (guess whose that was & whose thoughts they were even when we thought they were our own). Enter a new girlfriend of one of my friends. Answered the door naked, thought she was the reincarnation of Queen Nefertiti of Egypt (why is no one ever reincarnated from some common person?), & was into her own group of telepathically linked friends with the addition of some crazy lust spirits – now, there’s a network with some powerful attraction. Some of the things happening as a result might be more readily recognized generally as possession, but why is it any more possession than the simple 3 digit number transference? Later, that spirit didn’t leave because God indwelled. Why would it? God doesn’t possess like devils do. God doesn’t control my thinking or change my habits. Every doctrine of devils that I had believed wasn’t automatically revealed as such. Those neural pathways were still an easy ride for that spirit. I didn’t know even then the nature of that “telepathic” experience, & God was not about to FORCE me to disengage. Life doesn’t happen that way. I still had more to unlearn & learn in that area. And deliverance was yet to come in THAT area.

"Bible and I-Ching" I was looking forward to seeing something of a connect here with the thread being called "Bible and I-Ching." All I see is a similarity of the expression of an idea. That's okay, I guess - you didn't promise more. I think that the foundations of I-Ching (read about it & used it once - obviously not an expert) is sound - that the state of the energies acting in the Universe at a given moment affects our lives. I don't think we are restricted to the effects of those realities. Any of us. Especially those of us who, in the field of play, can access the power of the already glorified (operating from a place above & beyond those limitations). Tom

Tzaia, you would have to have been involved every time and every place "It" was present to be in a position to say, "It has never been anything more than a control tactic, or an excuse for lack of control." with credibility. I don't think anyone involved here would deny that "It" wasn't used for nothing "more than a control tactic, or an excuse for lack of control" in TWI during certain periods in certain areas - sometimes more than others. But that doesn't mean it was always used that way. Besides, the original question didn't limit the discussion to TWI.

IMO, this is a valid statement. The truths of the bible are meant to be known experientially as well as understood with the apprehension of an individual. There is little foundation to build upon in this field in the mind of someone who has never experienced these realities in his/her own life or in the lives of others - whether the other is born again or not. It's like someone considering whether certain sophisticated electrical systems models might work in particular applications when the individual never made the intro class on basic theory their own.