Tom

Acts 5:16 There came also a multitude out of the cities round about unto Jerusalem, bringing sick folks, and them which were vexed with unclean spirits: and they were healed every one. I'm thinking that these folks were probably believers. Acts 8:7 For unclean spirits, crying with loud voice, came out of many that were possessed with them: and many taken with palsies, and that were lame, were healed. I'm thinking that these folks were probably believers also. Acts 19:12 So that from his body were brought unto the sick handkerchiefs or aprons, and the diseases departed from them, and the evil spirits went out of them. And these. But maybe not. 1 Corinthians 12:10 To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues: I think these operations are energized by God most efficaciously withing the body of those who already believe. Again, I suppose, theoretically, I could be wrong. 1 Timothy 4:1 ¶Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils; In order to depart from the faith, these "some" must first be of the faith, no? "giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils..." Again, I guess you would have to define "possession" in order to answer the question. No one is totally possessed. Whenever most people, in my experience, speak of possession - if they are speaking in practical terms , they are speaking of particular functions of the body or mind of an individual that are being controlled. If one doesn't believe in possession at all, then there is no reason to ask the question, but if we accept that spirits can control particular functions of a person's body or mind, I see no reason biblically to assume that activity automatically ceases whenever one is born again.

Well, there you go - happens to me every time. I jumped in on the middle of the conversation without reading or mentioning that I hadn't read any of the posts, & that I was just responding to the first post. I thought about saying as much - should have. Sorry & thanks, Tom

No offense intended T-Bone, but That's tending, inferring, & assuming - all to address what you accept as a scenario. That's a wee bit scary to me. It reminds me of when I might go to the doctor complaining of some symptoms. The doctor informs me I'm suffering from xyz Syndrome. It sounds like he knows what he's talking about. He even has a name for it. Now he can start assuming, inferring, & tending to prescribe on what he's already decided is a scenario - my scenario. It sounds like putting the cart before the horse. I’d like to inspect a little more the particulars that we are assuming belong in the cart. As a matter of fact, T-Bone, I agree with much of what you say. I certainly think that between and among us humans, confession of fault to the offended party that we may be healed is wise; although, not necessarily required for healing or part of any accepted scenario to be carried out – likewise with rebuking and forgiving. I think Jesus Christ operates on a higher plane than that, and we are to love like he loved/loves. You said, “"Be kind and compassionate to one another, forgiving each other, just as in Christ God forgave you... Our model for forgiveness is how God forgave us in Christ – something He freely grants to those who turn to Him in their darkest hour when they simply acknowledge they are guilty and want to make amends – before they're even off their knees God pronounces it a "done deal" – not over what the sinner did – but what Christ had already done on Calvary - all the sinner does is accept that." How was God forgiving us in Christ if he wasn’t granting it to us until we were repenting. Was he forgiving us by the offering of his son, when he should have been rebuking us? No, he was forgiving us even before we repented. What is the nature of this amazing love? “God commends [favorably introduces] his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.” Is God going to favorably introduce the nature of his love as Christ dying for us (for our forgiveness, no?) when we were sinners, & now change the defining nature of his love to the exact opposite point in which we must confess our sins before we can have forgiveness? God forbid. Even so, Jesus, while dying said, "Father, forgive them for they know not what they do." That’s the nature of God’s love in Christ that we are to imitate. The defining nature is to forgive before the sinner asks. It’s a higher calling. Of course, we are still to walk honestly before God, an honesty that includes an acceptance of his absolute forgiveness in Christ while we were yet sinners, & a response to love (& forgive) others – the honest response to the nature of God’s love – not the confession of sin of those who have offended us. All this being as it may be, IMO, this reference to unconfessed (and unspecified) sin that is causing disease that started this thread was inspired by co-horts of the dark side meant to instill doubt, condemnation, & guilt. It’s classic, no? Hey, Merry Christmas!

Just a thought here, but 1 John is the only place that talks about confessing our sin that I can think of offhand. Seems out of place to take one verse and make a doctrine that is so widely accepted and practiced as if it were a major deal. if it were a major deal, it would be all over the Word like grace and peace and speaking the Word. Maybe we should take another look at that verse & rethink it if it doesn't fit with other verses. Don't confess sin. Confess the Word of deliverance from sin, yes? Bless the Lord, oh, my soul, and all that is within me, bless his holy name. Bless the Lord, oh my soul, and forget not all his benefits. Who forgives all your iniquities, Who heals all your diseases. Who redeems your life from destruction, who crowns your life with loving kindness and tender mercies. Tom

Roy, I am NOT saying that TWI has changed all the way from top to bottom. All I'm saying is about the love there in a local TWI fellowship that I have seen and the love that they have told me about in the branch and the state. I still had reservations about what is happening at the top. As a matter of fact those reservations have recently seemed to be justified. Here is an email I received recently: I had an interesting conversation with a WC grad and staff member that had left the ministry in the past year. This is what I got from the conversation...The idea of decentralizing the teachings was that it would eliminate the worship of "The Teacher"...(as if that was root of the problem...geez). Yet Rosalie runs EVERYTHING, controls EVERYTHING. After the fiasco with Craig they have demanded of the WC and staff especially to speak up over any questionable behavior unless it has to do with Rosalie and her squad of "Men Hating Woman"...Donna being 2nd only to Rosalie in that fellowship...I asked if there is lesbian activity and the comment was Donna is still married to the President of the ministry. The cabinet consists of yes men or women that are not allowed to speak up or argue a point. Rosalie being the school teacher that she was...(when was she one and how long? She has a been on staff forever)...runs the ministry like a school and if you displease her she punishes by taking responsibility and privileges away like making you live in Founders Hall or gives you a responsibility out on the field. She does this even to the old timers...the ones who have bled the Way Interinational...Mitlers, Panerellos...people of unbelievable character and quality. She has no respect for what they have done for the ministry. Her wings have been clipped severely with all the stuff that craig did like she doesn't yell because that would be "abusive" so in turn she teaches and takes away responciblities and would rather yell and do it all the old way. The consensus is that it is dieing and everyone wishes it would just die and be done with. My heart aches for those who are still involved and abused by it and not in the same way others have been but in the sufficating, life sucking, controlling Way. People involved are still saying..."if something better came along I would go." Bless their hearts, they don't realize NOTHING is better. It was always suppose to be "Just God and I"...isn't that the heart of the word "Godliness - a true vital spiritual relationship with God." First and foremost I need to have it together with my Father before I am an asset to the Family. There is life after The Way and God is still your God and He still opens the eyes of your understanding and answers prayers and loves you. How sad after all those years of learning God's Word they don't believe that. They don't know they can walk away and be in the world with their God and not "belong" to anything and still grow and fellowship with God. I just found out that Leah Martindale is married and she is now Leah Fear....the joy of this is that I am pretty sure I know who she married and his mom and sister lived with me when he was 7. Great kid. It just tickles me that one of the martindales is now a fear. Both of them have had crazy lives in this Way and I wish them the best. I get the impression Leah doesn't have much to do with her mom or the ministry....I also got the impression that Tim is a lot like his Dad. I read on his profile that he is into micro-expressions which is what the show Lie to Me is all about. I guess their youngest daughter Dorothy is a senior this year. In their efforts to raise their children according to the word those three children suffered more then most children and ended up with baggage like few have to carry. God's grace and their resilience is going to have to get them on down the path of life in one peace...i meant to spell it that way. Well, I thought you all would be interested to know The Way still sucks just on whole new levels. My response follows: This is a very interesting post here, especially in light of some of the things I’ve said about some of the TWI people I’ve fellowshipped with lately and some of the things that they’ve said about the changed TWI. I did say that I still wondered about what was going on at the top. You said people involved are still saying..."if something better came along I would go." Bless their hearts, they don't realize NOTHING is better. It was always suppose to be "Just God and I" Tom: I don’t think it is just God and me, and so, I don’t think there is nothing better. When the Word says, “Ye are completely, completely, completely, complete in him” the “Ye” is plural. We are complete in him as members in particular in the One Body. Not that we can’t be individually be strong to do all things through Christ, but there is an identity that we all have as members in particular together in Christ that won’t be realized until we are all together in him. Meanwhile, there’s a taste of that when a number of members in particular work together. Those members far exceed the sum of their parts. We are God’s one new man, his new creation, his poetic masterpiece. That poetry of the new creation is realized in relationship with the other members of the new creation. Every energizing of the spirit in the one body is meant to be enjoyed as a compacting of the one body by that which every joint supplies, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, making increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love. That is more than NOTHING better; it is MUCH better. These TWI I’ve been fellowshipping with are willing and even already are entertaining truths from the Word that contradict TWI doctrine. Some are also willing to and have enjoyed fellowship with me outside the official TWI fellowship set up. I’ve already been enjoying some of the MUCH better with them. They know nothing of the substance of your conversation with the WC grad who recently left – thank you much for sharing that. Everyone in that fellowship is so fed up with the mark for avoidance travesty of recent years – many suffered it themselves. They believe it’s different now – and it is among many that they know. If they knew that same kind of stuff was happening today in a different way, they would all leave. I’m not going to tell them – they don’t know you, and they don’t know this WC grad. But if I’m wise. If I continue to enjoy the much better with them, perhaps soon, the much better will become much more better. God has no lack of much better things up his sleeve. Looking forward to much better, Tom

DANG! No one here so far has gone to Woodstock? Am I just old? Or exceptional? Or both? Or neither? Okay, I went to Woodstock. I just showed up on the corner in Long Island on Friday as usual for the customary "What do you want to do tonight" discussion that could go on & on, but this afternoon, someone said that there was a concert going on in Woodstock. Woodstock? Where is that? Upstate somewhere. I don't want to go upstate for a concert. No, this is supposed to be a really good concert, Janice Joplin, Jimmy Hendrix, The Airplane, etc. on & on. Actually, I don't remember all the artists that were mentioned, but it sounded good, so we all went home, backed some things, & came back to the corner - & drove to Woodstock. The highway we went on turned into a parking lot some miles outside of Woodstock, so we just left our car there & walked the rest of the way. When we finally got to the entrance, the gate was wide open. There was no admission price or admission anything. We just walked right in. Right after the gate, there were people with signs draped over them (looked like repent for the end is near people, but they were...) hawking their wares. The signs said & they were yelling, "Acid, heroin, cocain, etc." There were cops right there & all around, but they weren't stopping any of the drug activity. The people were absolutely in control. Someone said that the brown acid was bad, so I decided not to trip at all. I did see a couple of people convulsing here and there - apparently the brown acid was highly dosed with arsenic. I found some good speed & mj was all around. I woke up Saturday morning freezing my bunns off, soaking wet with the rain - blanket, shorts, & T-shirt all wet. Don't ask me how I got there. No friends, no money, no anything. I saw people all around holding their wet blankets over the fires that were all around, & went to one with my soaking wet blanket. Picture yourself holding a soaking wet wool military blanket over a fire. How long do you think it would take for that blanket to get so heavy that you can't hold it up anymore? Right! That blanket went into the fire, & I was on the way home. On the way, it started raining, & I ran under a tree. I'm talking a huge tree, so wide that there was a seat hammered into it that went all around the tree. This kid is sitting next to me saying isn't this the greatest thing? I say this sucks, I woke up this morning soaking wet with no wallet, no money, no water, no food, no friends. This sucks, & I'm on my way home. He says you don't need any of that - this is the PEOPLE man - we are in control. Whoever you're with when you are tired, that's where you'll sleep, whoever you're with when you hungry that's who you will eat with. Everything belongs to everyone; you'll lack nothing. Well that sounded good in theory. I aleady believed that in theory. I was what was called a greaser in NY, 1/2 hood, 1/2 hippie, but this kid was committed. He absolutely believed that was all happening & there was nothing to worry about. A bottle of wine was passed aroung the tree - he took a swig & gave the bottle to me - I gratefully took a swig & passed it on. I started to see his point. A pipe chock filled with hashish came around the tree, & I started to see what he was really saying. And that's the way the weekend went. Sometimes people I met were worried like I had been - especially with the helicopters flying overhead. But I assured them everything was taken care of - we were the people & it would work. And it did. The first time I went by the lake where people were all bathing nude, I was too uptight to go in (I'd gone skinny diping with friends before, but out in front of strangers - I couldn't do it), but by the next day I had no problem with the idea. Unfortunately the water was contaminated by then. I hooked up with some of my friends, but by then I was all content just floating in among the PEOPLE & left them again with no concern. I met with them to see certain artists perform, & that was awesomely fun, but it wasn't out of need - there was no need. Everyone, those in charge of the thing on the mike, the artists, everyone you met kept saying that it was all peace and love, & peace and love would prevail even though we were doing something that had never been done in the history of man. And that's how the weekend went. Tom

Sorry, actually I don't know how to work the numbering thing here apparantly. I was trying to draw a contrast in perspective in consideration of what is good between two viewpoints. Please don't take it personally - it wasn't meant that way.

A few things to say here: You're really such a bunch of A-holes. Can't anyone try to see the other person's point of view and ascribe some value to it? No? Why not? Is it all about what happens inside that closed box you call a brain? Disgreement is a chance to grow, but no, you remain adolescent. Is that good? I'm sincerely thankful for all your imput. You've brought the discussion far beyond my original considerations. That was my original intent - you have far exceeded my expectations. Good! Which one & what is good? Interesting that this discussion has devolved in part to a discussion on whether or not TWI was/is good or evil. I suppose that was to be expected considering the forum. Although that was not my original intent, it does fit in with the things that are happening in my life at this time. Here is what I thought (at the time) was an unrelated post on a different list - funny how things fit sometimes: I recently have had the opportunity to attend a TWI fellowship a few times. I’m living back in the area in Southern Florida where I lived from 1983-1992. There is one TWI fellowship here where once it was a cranking area with many fellowships & growing all the time, myself being an intrinsic part of the growth and the fellowshipping. The people who are still fellowshipping in this one TWI fellowship are among those that I loved the most while I was here in those years. There is a couple that I loved deeply while others they went to for help were involved in being assholes growing bigger. I was working for Palm Beach County Parks & Recreation Dept. in those days. I would time my route so that I would arrive at one of the beach parks at sunrise & watch the sunrise up over the Atlantic – some extraordinarily beautiful times. Then I would call this couple & we would pray & welcome the day together – sometimes engaging in interpretation of tongues &/or prophecy, the Lord bearing witness to the grace of the new day beginning. The man who coordinates the fellowship first came to a fellowship that I was coordinating. To these people, & others in the fellowship, I’m Jesus Christ on a stick. I’ve told them otherwise, but It doesn’t matter what I’ve done or haven’t done, they’ll love me till the day I die. That kind of love has a way of searing through every bit of crap to the center of my heart. It’s the kind of fellowshipping that my heart has longed for many years – the kind many on these lists have expressed longing for many times. Many in this fellowship have experienced the marked for avoidance horror themselves personally, & are all about healing that sort of thing. I told the coordinator about how there was a WC at a fellowship my oldest son (then living with his mom from whom I was divorced) at 16 was teaching to which 15-20 of the people there were his friends whom he had taught & ministered healing. The WC said he was too young to teach – WHAT did they think he was a prophet or something? He wouldn’t let my son teach (wouldn’t have let that happen at my house). My son, who, no doubt, had more spiritual ability at 5 than this ...., left home then & lived under a highway for a year and ½. He is still recovering from that aberration in the way ministry. The coordinator who has 3 beautiful believing children was aghast & said that if that guy was here even at that moment he would (he who wouldn’t hurt a fly) take him out back & beat the living dang out of him so much so that he would NEVER even think of doing something like that again. Their love is so real! They tell me the way has changed – that everyone realizes the abominable nature of the horrors of recent years. I don’t know, I say. If that is so, why don’t those at the top level, in the name of the way, reach out in humility and apologize to those estranged, & in love invite them back? They don’t know – all they can say is that their area & state coordinators seem extraordinarily open, loving, transparent, & understanding – come see & talk with them. I told this couple what Reverend Cummins said about the tithe (that is wasn't applicable to this time) & what I was learning about it, & about how we all shared in the beginning in NY like they did in the Book of Acts & how the Word moved then. Their response – I always felt there was something missing about the way we are handling money & that the Word should be moving so much more than it is. I shared with this couple AND with the fellowship coordinator about what I was seeing in the Word about the One Body, One spirit, One Lord, One faith, One baptism, One new man, etc (contrary to TWI doctrine - recently posted here in the doctrinal section). You know what their response was? They had been seeing that themselves & wondering about some of the inconsistencies presented in Way Doctrine for some years now. The fellowship coordinator was hoping that I could put it into a form that could be presented at the next Advanced Class. Advanced Class? Well, I don’t know. Some of this seems to be rather idyllic thinking on the part of this couple and the coordinator, but there it is. These are seasoned and loving people. Again, my considerations go back to what’s happening at the top. Do I really want to engage if all is not as it appears to be? TWI doctrine notwithstanding, they all (immediate friends and fellowship coordinator) seem to be open to fellowshipping around what the Word really says regardless. An opportunity good? Evil? Arbitrary to the point of not being worthy of consideration? Got to go in some direction. Or I suppose I can sit on the curb and, when offered a buck for a bite to eat, say, I'd rather not, & die of starvation. I can talk about poisons offered as many can - later if we must. Thanks to all for your contributions.

Here’s a thought provoking story – at least for me it was. It reads like a parable, but it is a true story that happened to me this week. A neighbor, Billy, was walking by while I was working in the front of my house, & he stopped to chat for a while. He’s rather shy because he had an operation when he was young in which, as he describes it, a slice of his head was taken off, and he speaks with a slur. He can’t work a job (although, he is always working his butt off around his house), and he can’t read very well. Yet, he is very in tune with the things that are going on among the people in the neighborhood, he is good with numbers & their significance, and he readily sees mechanical problems and their solutions. He was explaining all this to me, he said, because he knew I am a teacher, and he thought I might understand. He felt that his inability to read was because of the operation that he had, & that he was missing some part of his brain that was essential to reading function. Also teachers didn’t seem to spend a lot of time with his reading problems. It seemed to him that they just knew that he didn’t have the ability, so they didn’t try. I told him that the decoding abilities that he applies to what’s going on with the interactions of people in the neighborhood (IMO, one of the highest of mental functions), the significance of numbers, and mechanical problems are all the same mental functions that are applied in decoding words on a page. I was trying to encourage him that he had the ability to read. I suppose there may some mental function specific to reading over and above those other functions that he applies so well that he may have lost when he had the operation, but I also know that people with speech problems often suffer in reading development simply because they are embarrassed, appear generally slow mentally, and get left behind as other students progress. There are one or more bad reading practices that almost all bad readers share that inhibit their growth in reading development. Of course, they then also appear likewise slow, and the problem compounds itself for them. I suspect that Billy’s reading problems have more to do with identifiable problems that many bad readers have – all of which can be corrected – than the operation that he had. I was certainly willing to give it a try if he was. I was just trying to encourage him. I have other specific reason to believe Billy has the potential to read well, but I don’t want this to get too long. If this were truly a parable, I would have left out most of the above, but I wanted you to get to know Billy a little bit. Anyway, in the conversation, Billy mentioned that this was his neighborhood, & he felt good when someone was succeeding in life in the neighborhood, and he felt bad when someone was having a problem. What a Christian viewpoint I thought! It sounds like the Apostle Paul talking about the One Body, & how, when one member suffers, we all suffer, & when one member rejoices, we all rejoice. Of course, Billy wasn’t talking about the One Body; he was talking about the neighborhood, but still – what a rare and remarkable attitude! Billy said he couldn’t understand how when sometimes some of our neighbors were having a hard time of it, others put them down and just made things harder for them. Didn’t they understand that this is OUR neighborhood, & we all either enjoy it or don’t enjoy it together? We ought to help our neighbors when they have problems, not make it worse for them. Parable of the good neighbor anyone? I had these two tree stumps on either side of my garage. I cut the trees down, but I couldn’t figure out how to get the stumps out. Knowing Billy was handy at a lot of things, I asked him how. He told me how, & offered to let me use his sawzall anytime I wished. Even with the sawzall, it sounded like a real bitch of a job, getting a posthole digger in between the stumps and the concrete, dealing with the roots, etc. Anyway, I thanked him for the offer of the use of his saw, & said good night. The next day when I came home both of the tree stumps had been removed. The next time I saw Billy, I thanked him profusely. He got a bit embarrassed at the thanks – some who give very freely have a hard time receiving. Billy does receive, but he feels it very deeply. I told Billy that he is a very Christ like soul. He said, “What?” I repeated that he is a very Christ like soul. He asked, “Is that a good thing or bad?” I said it was a great thing. Billy said, “Oh, good.” Now, my question is, “Are these Christian values that Billy is living?” Tom

Thank you Mark. Your website seems to be a well presented exposition of various essential truths from the Word. I will be honored to contribute although all of what I have written is very first rough draft, the essential truth of which I'm convinced of because of overwhelming verificaion I see in the Word, but the detailed exposition of which I feel needs a lot of refining. With that in mind, please feel free to use what you think will contribute. I've never had anything copywrited online or anywhere else, but please do that & let me know what that means to me & what I've written. So far, this investigation into shall I say the One Spirit has developed into a 3 part series. What I'm about to post here is, I don't know, maybe a part 4, or maybe more properly an addendum. Although addendums are usually added onto a publication at the end, this might have helped ExTWI understand all the preceding and so may have been better put at the beginning - for the benefit of ExTwi. For whatever benefit, here it is: We’ve been talking about (Part 3) our uniqueness as members in the Body of Christ – the particular nature of our membership, and the process involved in the development of that uniqueness. That Part 3 post had these two things to say at the end: “There is no membership APART from the One Body.” and “There is yet one clear MAJOR impediment to this input placed in the way of God’s energizing by previous TWI teaching that I would like to take out of the way.” Jesus’ job description in this process is clear. He is in charge. What does that mean? I reasonably can figure that I’ll learn more of what it means to have him in charge as I engage in the process. But that much is crystal. He is in charge. But what about me? What am I supposed to do? Let him be in charge. I have to let him be in charge if I want to grow into my unique membership in the One Body. That much is crystal. As to letting Jesus be Lord, there is a significant word in 1 Cor. 12:3b, *** no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost. This exclusively identifies saying that “Jesus is the Lord” as a spiritual matter – a fundamentally important and crucial spiritual matter. That’s why the statement is in 1 Cor. 12 that starts out, “Now concerning spiritual matters, brethren, I would not have you ignorant.” The “one clear MAJOR impediment” to God’s spiritual input into our lives that I refer to above has to do with who or what energizes the spiritual input into our lives. Do we? Does a spirit within? Does the spirit within – or without? Does God? Does Jesus Christ? 1 Corinthians 12:6 says, “And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all.” The words “operations” and “worketh” are forms of the same Greek root from which we get the words energy and energize. The word diversities is the Greek word diaresis meaning appointments. Clearly all the energizings of all the spiritual matters in all of us (that verse 1 says Paul would not have us ignorant of) are energized by God via his choice or option. For all you ExTWI, I think VP did a rather creditable job of exposition, IN PART, on this truth that God chooses and energizes every energizing of the spirit in all of us. So much so that he points out that in verse 11, “But all these worketh [that same word energizes] that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will” that “one and the selfsame” Spirit is “a unique triple reflexive emphasizing one, self, and same - & dividing is that word choosing. In triplicate, God is doing the choosing and the energizing of every energizing (operating) of the spirit is God’s prerogative. The big problem with that is although VP points out in this section of RTHST that God operates (energizes) all the energizings at his option, he ends it by saying that we operate. I could show where VP, like Eve, subtracts a word from the Word, adds a word to the Word, & ends up changing the Word to its exact opposite, but you can do the same by a close inspection of that section in RTHST should you care to do so. I did point out Eve’s process with regard to Matt’s “exposition” of why God gave each of us an individually unique gift of holy spirit, but Matt declined to answer that from a biblical point of view. It is pertinent to note that both Matt & VP needed to insert the factor of an individual spirit (an addition to the Word) to justify their theology. Obviously, that’s the exact opposite of what the Word says. The Word says God operates (energizes); VP says we operate. In the midst of VP’s duplication of Eve’s process, VP says the spirit within us energizes. From there he uses the analogy of a car battery. God has now been reduced to a car battery that WE operate. I know that analogies connect to truth in only 1 or 2 points, but there is such a thing as lame analogies. This is a lame analogy if there ever was one. Proverbs 26:7 The legs of the lame are not equal: so is a parable in the mouth of fools. The legs upon which this analogy rests are not equal. A major point in the analogy, God who energizes all spiritual matters, has been reduced to a battery that WE now operate at our will. What can I say except LAME. This idea that we operate the spirit at our own will was carried out to the point that all the definitions of the manifestations of the spirit (BTW, VP pointed out that there is only The Manifestation of The Spirit, not nine manifestations, but he continued to use the terminology that he already stated was erroneous – sloppy and fraught with error increasing) were preceded with these words: The manifestation of *** is your operation of the God-given ability whereby you may receive from God by His revealing it to you. Many words, no? For those of you who have run that through your brains until it made sense, that makes sense. For those of you who have never heard that, or never run it through enough (anything run through the cranium enough makes sense), your response may be WTF. Either way, that’s a lot or words. Not to be found in the Word, surely something so basic to the children of God doesn’t need to be so hard to be entreated (Matt’s proclivity to hard to entreat posts notwithstanding). The 1st century believers certainly didn’t seem to need such theology. So, how did the 1st century believers operate the spirit so effectively (sorry, they didn’t operate the spirit), how did they manifest all 9 (sorry, there aren’t 9 manifestations), how did they with great power give witness of the resurrection of the Lord Jesus, great grace being upon them all? Now, that’s a good question. Back to the basics of I Cor. 12, verse 11b says, “[the Spirit was] dividing to every man severally as he will. “As he [the man] will.” All we are ever to do is believe God. E.W. Bullinger had something pertinent to say here: “Man MUST BELIEVE GOD in what He says in His Word; and he must believe ALL that God says. In what sharp contrast does this set all that goes to make up RELIGION! Religion occupies man entirely with himself; with what he das DONE, with what he CAN do, and with what he must DO. God would occupy man with HIMSELF, and with what He has SAID. This it is which gives its character to all “religion” in the present day; “Man’s Day.” Man is exalted, and God set aside. Man’s doings are substituted for man’s believing. This is why, on all hands, mans WORkS are substituted for God’s words. And as the importance of man’s works increases in his estimation, so God’s Word decreases.” Of course, one may say that Bullinger didn’t understand the field of the spirit to the degree that we do, but to that I say that the foundational truths may never be correctly departed from, only built upon. Who gets the glory? Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works[same word for energizings], lest any man should boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works [same word for energizings – in this case God’s option and God’s energizing], which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them. God is energizing. We should walk in those energizings. Ever realize after the fact that God had been working in your heart to will and to do of his good pleasure, even though, at the time it was happening, you weren’t aware of it? God was energizing at his option, realizing your believing heart even when you weren’t aware of it – that’s how he can do above what you can ask or think according to the power that works (God’s working) in you. If you are aware of God’s energizing within, so much the better; you are walking by the spirit in an immediate sense, but you are still playing catch up. God is energizing; you are following his energizing. Even if your following is inspired in the sense of in breathing – you speak and act in immediate synch with God’s leading, you are still acting as Jesus said, “My Father worketh hitherto, and I work.” Isn’t that so cool? God energizes first, so you can carry the energy (energize) the act to completion. No one’s free will is messed with. God has so set up spiritual things that we (God & I, or God & us, we all being in concert as Jesus prayed) would all be one with him and God the way that he was/is one with God. The difference? In the TWI model, God has already moved; all waits on human slugs to operate. In the Word, the manifestation of the spirit is (present tense) being given to all – God is operating. Attend to your believing self in whom God is operating.

Mark, thank you for the gracious invitation. I just got in from Portland, OR, via LA & Orlando. So, not tonight, but tomorrow or the next day, I'll get back to you. Your website appears (to me) to promise exceptional quality with regard to truth, but I've put off reading the articles. Why? My next article (There is yet one clear MAJOR impediment to this input placed in way of God’s energizing by previous TWI teaching that I would like to take out of the way) deals with 1 Cor. 12 as does one of your articles. I'd rather finish my article before reading yours. Soon, Tom

It seems this has developed into a 3 part series. Parts 1 & 2 are above. Here is 3. The spirit as dorea is what gives each one of us uniqueness as we mature within the body of Christ. When we receive the holy spirit, it is called charisma. When we grow to the point where the gift of the holy spirit is energized to benefit the recipient, it is called dorea - that energizing of the spirit to benefit the recipient is what makes you and I as individuals unique in the Body of Christ - members in particular. Right after God’s perfect Word says Ephesians 4:4a There is one body, and one Spirit, right after that wonderful litany of “one,” through verse 6, It is not going to go on in the very next verse 7 to say that there are many spirits. And it doesn’t say many gifts either for there is one gift of holy spirit given to the church. Ephesians 4:7 But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the [singular] gift [dorea: the gift benefitting the individual recipient – still one gift of holy spirit given to the church on Pentecost, but now that gift is benefitting an individual recipient of the one spirit in the one Body] of Christ. Unity does not negate diversity of the members of the body. 1Cor 12:18 But now God has placed the members, each one of them, in the body, just as He desired. There is no membership APART from the One Body. That’s what it means to be a member. As to the defining of our uniqueness in the One Body – how do we grow into that uniqueness? Ephesians 1:22b – 23a [God] gave him [Jesus Christ] to be the head over all things to the church, which is his body. “All things,” our uniqueness in the One Body is a spiritual matter, so Jesus Christ must be head (the person in charge) of that process – y’know, being Lord & all. Obviously, there are two people involved, Jesus, the one in charge of the process and me, the one whose unique membership in the One Body Jesus is defining. Likewise, therefore, there are two aspects to this process, 1. My personality, my previous experiences, everything that is ABOUT me, & 2. My unique functioning, via the spirit, as a member in particular in the One Body. As to my personality, my previous experiences, everything that is ABOUT me: God deals with each of us via the spirit in the light of our previous experiences. This is not particular to the Body of Christ. God dealt with people in the OT this same way. I said as much previously in this discussion; however, there is an added aspect to this in the Body of Christ. In the Body of Christ, we are dealing with the one who can be touched with the feeling of our infirmity, the one who is able to save us (make us whole to the uttermost). All language is imperfect, yet God refines his words - Psalms 12:6 The words of the LORD are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times. Likewise, our past experiences are all imperfect communications to us of life. When God deals with us in the light of our experience, his communications are pure. He purifies our experiences. He purifies us in the fire of the spirit. Anything left unpurified gets burned away at the Bema because flesh and blood cannot inherit the Kingdom of God. All ABOUT us that has been purified is our uniqueness in the Body of Christ, now – and we are rewarded for that at the Bema. As to my unique functioning, via the spirit, as a member in particular in the One Body, and your unique functioning, via the spirit, as members in particular in the Body of Christ: I’m really sorry guys, but much of that is above me at this point – and I promised this would be the short version. But I know this much. There is no membership APART from the One Body. I am not complete in Christ. WE are. I am not as he is in this world. As he is so are WE in this world. Not only is there unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace, one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; one Lord, one faith, one baptism, and one God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all, there is also one new man. Ephesians 2:15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace. And that one new man that we are to put on is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him. We are supposed to experience our membership in particular in the one new man in this life. There is yet much to be learned and experienced in this life about our unique identity in the One Body. I’m just starting out; I’m sorry I can’t say more. But I can say this. I’m stoked. I’ve never been so thrilled by the Word or the spiritual input of Jesus Christ in my life. There is yet one clear MAJOR impediment to this input placed in way of God’s energizing by previous TWI teaching that I would like to take out of the way. Later & love, Tom

I appreciate the replies. Thank you. I posted my original post in several other places, and I’m seeing by the responses that I’m getting that I could have expressed myself better in certain areas. Not only that, but my vision is still being defined more clearly, so I’m very grateful for the responses I’m getting. If I'm reading correctly the responses I'm getting, one area of concern is about our individuality. 1. What happened to my individuality as a member in particular in the Body of Christ? 2. I was taught that God works with us spiritually as individuals If I’m reading these concerns/this concern correctly, they/it concern(s)our individuality in the Body of Christ and involve how God works with us as individuals as if they werwe one and the same. While related, these are two different things essentially. RE: How God works with us as individuals: God works with us individually via the spirit in the light of our previous experiences and individual personalities, character, circumstances, etc. This is true, but this has nothing to do essentially with any individuality of the “spirits” God has given us as members in particular in the Body of Christ. God worked the same way with OT people who had the spirit, and they were not members in particular in the Body of Christ. That’s just God, the Master Communicator, working with people via the spirit. RE: Our individuality in the Body of Christ: We were taught that we each received our own individual spirit when we were born again, and that it is now our spirit. LCM took that further and said that each spirit received by each individual believer in the Body was particularly suited to that person’s make-up. I don’t believe that logic of LCM is correct, and I don’t think that the logic of VPW that LCM based his conclusions on is correct either. I’m not saying that there is no spirit to be received, just that there is only one Spirit into which we are all made to drink. 1 Corinthians 12:13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit. The Body of Christ was baptized into the promise of the Father once. As members in particular in that body, we drink into one Spirit. Galatians 3:2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye [this is plural] the Spirit [not your spirits] by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? Galatians 3:3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit [not your spirits], are ye now made perfect by the flesh? Galatians 6:18 Brethren [plural], the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with your spirit [not your spirits]. Amen. I know that because of previous teaching in TWI, our minds tend look at all the plurals I’ve added to the verses above and think, “Well, yeah, that sounds ridiculous when you say it like that, but that doesn’t mean – enter the curtain of previous teaching. Then, we might say, well surely there must be some kind of English grammar explanation for the confusion of singulars and plurals in all those verses (and all the others like them – a figure of speech maybe). I’m sure I could come up with some kind of English grammar rationale for mixing singulars and plurals – generally a firm grammar no no - but why not just accept that God said what He meant – there is one spirit. So, if you have the spirit, & I have the spirit, and there is only one spirit, what the heck does that mean, & where then is my individuality in the ONE Body? Well, first, what does it mean that you have the spirit, & I have the spirit, and there is only one spirit? Picture this (please give me some space here; we’re talking about spirit which we can’t perceive by the 5 senses. Also, I don’t see how it all fits, & I’m somewhat shooting from the hip as I try to see more of what hits the target – besides, it’s an analogy – it doesn’t work all the way through; it’s just designed to get one point across), you and Jesus Christ in a room. Unfortunately, you’re blind. You can’t see him. You believe Jesus was one with the Father. You know he prayed that you would be one with the Father even as he was/is one with the Father. But, being blind, you can’t see that. You’re waiting. You know Jesus promised the Comforter that would reveal all things concerning Jesus Christ to you, but being blind, you can’t see that. Meanwhile, unbeknownst to you, Jesus receives the promise of the Father, The Comforter, The Spirit that will reveal. He’s all jacked up; you’re waiting. He extends The Spirit forth to you. It doesn’t leave him, a particle of The Spirit, now A spirit, entering into you. It extends out from him. It stays with him. It just extends out from him and enters you. Now, via The Spirit, the one spirit you are sharing with Jesus Christ, the Comforter, you see him. You’re not blind anymore. You’re connected to Jesus via The Spirit, the one spirit in which you both reside. Now, you’re jacked up like Jesus is. He is sending you as much as you can handle, enabling you to be one with God & Jesus, just like they are one with one another. Now, I enter the room. I’m blind; I don’t see what’s going on. You ask me what I’m doing. I tell you I’m waiting. You tell me I don’t have to wait anymore. I say, Word? You say Word, & tell me what’s going on. I believe your words. At the moment I believe your words about The Word, the one spirit, that is now encompassing both you and Jesus and in you both extends out to me and enters me. Now, via the one spirit, I see both you and Jesus for what you really are spiritually as one with each other and with God through Jesus – as Jesus is now sending me as much as I can handle, enabling me to be one with God & Jesus (like he is with you) just like they are with one another . Wow, I love you. I love Jesus. I love God. I’m as totally jacked into what’s happening as I can be at that moment. I invite my friends, and the process keeps repeating itself until we have all these people all tied it together to Christ via the same spirit. We are the Body of Christ with God in Christ in us via the spirit – the same spirit – one Body, one Spirit – Jesus sending us all as much as we can handle via the one spirit about this whole oneness thing. Second, where is our individuality in this ONE Body? Like every spiritual input in the One Body, It comes from the head of the body, Christ, not through any individual differences in the “spirits” in us, for there is One Spirit, but from the one heading all this up, Christ. Receiving his input directly from him via the one spirit – and from one another when we are gathered in his name (him then being among us via the one spirit in manifestation) – we all grow up into him who is the head, even Christ – the manifestation of the one spirit being unique in member in particular, each with our own longsuits and functions – the joints and bands of the Body ministering in love all proceeding from the head - in the one spirit. I hope that helps – please let me know. I think I’ll stop here for now. Here a little, there a little. I hope if you're here, I'll see you there for a little more. Growing into him with you, Tom

PEACE, JEFF? What do you man peace? I practice caution when I hear someone preach peace. Just kidding - thanks for the quick response. Your caution is duly noted. I'm not starting a church - It's already been started, and it has unity spiritually - in the bond of peace. I'm just trying to KEEP the unity. The peace you sent here returned to you with appreciation. Tom

Greetings all, Here is something I think I'm seeing. I would appreciate any feedback. Points to Ponder Jesus Christ is very active. God has given him to be the head over ALL things to the church, which is his body. As a member in particular in the Body of Christ, you don’t have your own individual spirit while I have mine. There is only one spirit. It came on the day of Pentecost when the church was baptized in Holy Spirit. No one is baptized in Holy Spirit after that. Now, as members in particular in the Body of Christ, we have access through that one spirit that was promised of the Father to the followers of Christ. Ephesians 2:18 For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father. Eph. 4:4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling... The faith of Jesus Christ doesn’t give us the ability to believe like Jesus Christ did believe. It gives us the ability to believe like Jesus Christ IS believing. We have no right to put that in the past tense. Jesus Christ is heading up all things in his body. We get to believe THAT way. On the day of Pentecost, Peter said, “being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he [Jesus Christ] hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear. “This” was the speaking in tongues the wonderful works of God that the people were “now” hearing, NOT the promise of the Holy Ghost. Jesus Christ was now shedding forth what the people were hearing and seeing Peter and the other apostles say. THAT’S what gave the previously fearful apostles boldness – the MAN is BACK people. He is HERE NOW. He is shedding forth this. The apostles were walking in the faith of Jesus Christ who was literally heading up the show. “The name of Jesus Christ” is meant to be more than a tag line put on the end of our prayers. The apostles knew that they were speaking for Jesus Christ, not in some general power of attorney way where I can do what I want in his name. It is not about me. God has no respect for that. It is about Jesus Christ. Peter said unto him, “Aeneas, Jesus Christ makes you whole.” Jesus Christ made him whole. Peter got to participate in the faith of Jesus Christ. It’s not about me operating my holy spirit. That puts the emphasis on me again. That was the fault in Cain’s sacrifice. God has no respect for that kind of sacrifice. All the sacrifices God had respect for throughout the OT, God sent fire from heaven to burn up the sacrifice all the way to ashes. If it depends on me operating the spirit, it is as weak as my flesh in which dwells no good thing. We all have access to God through Jesus Christ as he heads up all things that have to do with his body by one spirit according to his faith. We get to walk in his faith. It is all about him. In my ability to operate holy spirit, I have weakness. By Jesus Christ’s faith, I have boldness and access with confidence in Jesus Christ. There is only one faith. If the faith of Jesus Christ was my ability to believe the way Jesus Christ DID, then, as you believe the way he DID, & I believe the way he DID, there would be two faiths, and again, it would be all about you & me. In that Ephesians 3:12 In whom [Jesus Christ] we have boldness [NOW] and access [NOW] with confidence [NOW] by the faith of him [the faith he has NOW as he heads up EVERYTHING that has to do with his body]. There is one faith and it’s his [NOW], & we get to participate in it. Now, in THAT, we have boldness. Then, when we speak in tongues, it’s like the fire from heaven burning everything to ashes – there is no fear, there is no doubt, there is no flesh, there’s rivers of living water being given to us by Jesus Christ, flowing out of our bellies. How about a little poetry from the Master about Oneness? Ephesians 4:1-6: I therefore, the prisoner of the Lord, beseech you that ye walk worthy of the vocation wherewith ye are called, With all lowliness and meekness, with longsuffering, forbearing one another in love; Endeavoring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace. There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; One Lord, one faith, one baptism, One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

Just a brief note of appreciation for your post Rocky. I've ordered the book, and I'm looking forward to reading it.

Kit, that's awesome, thank you. Tom

Please allow me to pursue this further, Jeff. Does this mean that someone who is (present tense) doing evil has never seen God? How can we judge a man's whole life by whether he is presently doing evil or not? Does that mean that Balaam never had a true prophet's relationship with God - even though he uttered such great prophecies? Next time I'm doing evil, I'll just kill myself if that's the case. I know all too well that there is a tendency for people to keep going in the direction that they are going whether good or evil, but that is not the final sentence; there's no redemption in that. I'm an English teacher. That doesn't mean that I'm infallible where grammar is concerned, but if I have this one correct, "he that doeth evil" is simple present tense, and "hath not seen God" is present perfect tense, not the past tense. The idea is that he that does evil is currently in the state of not having seen God (in the context, with regard to any pretense that Diotrephes was presenting that he was representing God). We have no right to infer that Diotrephes never knew, saw, nor truly represented God to people. Selah, Tom

I don't know Jeff. I have no problem with your 1st point. I'm in agreement. The 2nd point though... What you say seems to be correct, but does a revelation at a given point in time guarantee that someone will be better later? What about Balaam? Anyway, my point was that there are places where people "see" God or the Lord Jesus, and the result is healing, not fear. It might be dramatic, but it is not necessarily fearful. You don't seem to have any problem with that, but as to your second point (is that your main point?), I don't see that a revelation necessarily means that someone is going to get better. Not everyone walks on every revelation. I would think that many have received revelation that they failed to respond to. Of course, not responding to revelation, they "get worse." Does that mean they never received the revelation? No! Right?

Yes, but still - there has to be a difference between that and others who have seen the lord without a fear reaction.

I've been thinking of Rom. 8:11 this morning: But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you. That's some pretty kick butt stuff going on in that verse. The Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead (wow), quickening my mortal body (wow) - that Spirit, dwelling in me. There's a lot of power going on there, & we're not just talking a one time vision, but God making himself at home in me. Yet, there is no hint of fear - a quickening of my mortal flesh, but no fear. God is love, and perfect love casts out fear. I also came across Psalm 96 just now, "Worship the LORD in the beauty of holiness." I'm not denying those verses where people trembled in fear. I'm not sure of the difference. Relationship might have something to do with it. Stephen saw Jesus standing. Intense, yes, but no fear.

Ah, I see how serious your question/quest is. Wierwille opened more than consideration for me. God and I have touched from time to time. I've never been afraid of Him. Well, that needs qualification. I've had to say that's enough - that's all I can take. He's always been okay with that. I guess, I mean I know he would have wanted me to go further, but I couldn't /wouldn't. Graciously, he still allowed me to hang out at the level of revelation he granted & I accepted. He didn't shoot me down because I didn't feel like I could go further. Actually, I asked him to let me hang out there in that degree of his presence even though I knew he wanted to take me higher. He was gracious enough to accommodate me. Is this making sense?

I've scanned, but not read deeply the posts in this thread (except the first ones), so I'm sorry if these verses have been mentioned already, but I just read them & thought they pertained to the discussion here. Matthew 17:5 While he yet spake, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them: and behold a voice out of the cloud, which said, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased; hear ye him. 6 And when the disciples heard it, they fell on their face, and were sore afraid. 7 And Jesus came and touched them, and said, Arise, and be not afraid. So, yes they were afraid, but Jesus told them not to be, so while it is human nature to be afraid at the presence of God, apparently, we don't have to be. Tom

Cool translation of Psalm 119:41 in the Message version of the bible: Let your love, God, shape my life with salvation, exactly as you promised.

In many respects we all play the fool, gc. Year by year, I'm more impressed with how messed up man is and how wonderful God is. I think we're supposed to be learning that. Even the greats were foolish at times. Take this word about Moses, Aaron, and Samuel, for example: Psalms 99:5 Exalt ye the LORD our God, and worship at his footstool; for he is holy. 6 ¶Moses and Aaron among his priests, and Samuel among them that call upon his name; they called upon the LORD, and he answered them. 7 He spake unto them in the cloudy pillar: they kept his testimonies, and the ordinance that he gave them. 8 Thou answeredst them, O LORD our God: thou wast a God that forgavest them, though thou tookest vengeance of their inventions. "Their inventions," yet God forgave them and answered them, so we exalt the Lord our God. Even Solomon, the wisest man, didn't he screw around with over 1,000 wives or some ridiculous number, and so get corrupted? And didn't that lead to the downward spiral of David's kingdom? One day, when I was young and evil, I fell on my face before the Lord and asked him to save me. And he did. And I became like a child, surrounded and filled by his love in my innocence. He loved me, saved me, and protected me despite my foolishness without requiring a damn thing of me. That relationship was just fine, fine, fine, by me. Jesus said unless you become like a little child, there's no way you can enter into the kingdom of God. Still true. Anything else is just foolish pretension. Are we too "wise" to be children again. Pshaw! Be children again. It's the only way. Tom