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Posts posted by skyrider

  1. 2 hours ago, chockfull said:

    The need to change this was called out by the R and R group who sent in a list of reformations to TWIs board.  Just like in the Martin Luther video they like to show around “reformation Sunday” that group was excommunicated like Martin Luther was.

    Yes, but.... even if someone in the R&R group got to run things at twi, would there have been any real changes?  I doubt it.  Those guys were/are so steeped in the wierwille doctrine that I tend to think they would have only "shuffled a few chairs" in the power structure.  The very fact that they've stayed the course of the pfal-catechism speaks volumes.

    Without a complete overhaul in structure and thinking, the "little guy" would still not have a vote.



  2. That's the thing about authoritarian control..... invariably, they ALWAYS overreach.

    One of wierwille's many mistakes was the instigation of Corps Week.  Rather than take steps to have staff members and/or contract labor set up Rock of Ages tents, staging and various support systems.... wierwille mandated more FREE-LABOR from way corps.  What became know as Corps Week was in essence *Work Week* to supplement the needs to setting up roa.  In fact, if things were behind schedule, wierwille would cancel a day of meetings so that the corps could do an all-day work day.  It's amazing how much can get accomplished when 1,500-1,800 corps get busy working.

    Corps grads became less-inclined to attend corps week and roa, because of the increased burdens placed on their lives, careers and family responsibilities.  With a growing number of pregnancies and little ones in tow..... more corps women were unable to participate in the meetings and/or work.  This also caused concern and friction in marriages.... yet, wierwille stayed stedfast in his mandate of corps week.  And, when 1982 rolled in.... martindale was president-elect getting ready to be installed as the 2nd president.  Corps continued to participate out of "respect for wierwille".... but in the following years, the numbers dwindled further.  Times were changing and leadership at headquarters were caught off guard when the exodus erupted.

    Marindale did the same thing.  He overreached his authoritarian mandates and put ALL corps on payroll.  We know how that "revelation" crashed and burned.  And, of course, martindale shifted the blame to the corps.  They just weren't disciplined enough to pull it off.

    Same deal with Rivenbark.  She micro-managed the corps to death with projects and requests for feedback.  Even when corps sent out warning signals that she was being abusive, Rosalie stayed the course until the exodus of 2017.  The Revival and Restoration Group started to exit en masse (120-200 ?) as they signed a confrontation letter to the Board of Directors wanting Rosie's resignation.

    With this authoritarian overreach..... NOW look where twi is positioned?  :biglaugh:



  3. Wierwille's twi attempts to keep 1) The Illusion of support and 2) The Focus is control in proper balance.  More than his successors, wierwille played "this con" better than them.  Pfal classes, the WOW program and rock of ages provided this support.  With the backdrop of annual Rock of Ages events.... this festival was a big drawing card to keep the masses making the pilgrimage to headquarters each year.  The youth thrived on the experience of camping in "Tent City" and seeing their friends at this annual event.  As long as it was simple, fun and not overly micro-managed..... it was a spot on the calendar year that few wanted to miss.

    In the early 70's, the simple nature was unmistakable.  Make-shift family tables were set up for people to step "on stage" and sing their songs, strum their guitars or perform a funky skit.  Bales of straw were used in place of folding chairs.  Food stands served Dannon yogurt, mixed nuts, fruits, trail mix and assorted items that gave the cash-strapped youth a start to their day.  Showers were cold and fellowship with friends was warm.  All of this provided youth with a space to call their own.

    The illusion of support extended to materials like the way magazine and sunday teaching tapes.... although many did not partake of these subscriptions.  Yet, year after year, twi "encouraged" their followers to be connected to headquarters.  For many years, the local twigs and branch meetings gave so much support and activity that twi headquarters was a secondary support system.... at least, that's the way I perceived it.  The only exception was, of course, the rock of ages.  You just had to go to know what it was like.

    BUT..... all of this changed by 1975, 1976 as corps grads were sent forth into the areas and limbs.  Now, The Illusion of support was shifting into its new primary initiative which was "The Focus is control."  Wierwille was building a hierarchy.  The narcissist had an agenda.  As corps grads were assigned to field positions, the faithful non-corps twig and branch leaders were replaced.  How few of us noticed the seismic shift that wierwille pulled off in plain sight.  All the fundamentals that built twi to this point were removed off the chess board and replaced by rooks, knights and bishops to do the power plays on the field.  Once implemented, this two-tier arrangement on the field never changed.  Corps leadership were the spiritual leaders over non-corps followers without question.  Why?  Because wierwille mandated it.

    As long as there were no challenges, wierwille's "system" operated without issue.  Those who did challenge the doctrines and practices of twi were quickly shown the door.  And, for many.... I suspect, that was fine with them.

    I often wondered why if wierwille's corps training was raising up "God's crack troops"..... where were the gift ministries of apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors and teachers?  Specifically, prophets and evangelists.  Where were they?  Why was there such a chasm between wierwille's elite golden pedestal and a corps grads' stump?  If the corps program was NOT spiritually-enriching and engaging the office of these ministries, then what was the corps program doing?  Was it counterfeit? [Yes, I actually had those thoughts during my final year in-residence 1980-81.]

    Now, I've come to believe that all of this was controlled-management.... AND..... controlling.

    The whole system of twi is an illusion of support.... to help the follower "study the Word" and "grow to maturity."  But it's an illusion, appearing as light.  Remember the scripture verses: 

    • 2Co 11:13  For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ.
    • 2Co 11:14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.

    Some of these people have been twi-followers for 50 years.... and still rehashing basic "truths" every week!!  Don't they see the CONTROL twi has over them?  The activity and habits are so ingrained in them that they fail to see how they are institutionalized into a mind frame.  Even those on the field, with "support" (cough) from corps grads have the same grooved mindset.  Thankfully, most of the kids have surpassed their parents in seeing through this false support and recognize it for what it rightfully is.....CONTROL over others.



  4. 6 hours ago, chockfull said:

     No I am stating a reasonable assumption.  

    Now you are progressing in the accusations to “not Christlike”.

    I am simply pointing out a touch of hypocrisy in starting a thread here with this title calling out “all of us on the Way Corps” to “take a long hard look at ourselves” and then not returning to do what they were calling us out on although the discussion has been ongoing since last Wednesday.

    Yes, she started a thread calling out "all of us who were in the Way Corps."

    Below is the beginning of the "we" part.


    On 3/15/2023 at 4:30 PM, MarieP said:

    All of us in The Way Corp did things we should not have done. We treated people the way we were trained and it wasn't always loving or kind. But it was justified because we had to have 'righteous anger'.  We can point fingers. We can say this person did this bad thing. But what about a deep long hard look at what we did? We were a part of it! 

    The substance of this post is confrontation:

    1. "All of us in The Way Corps did things we should not have done."
    2. "We treated people the way we were trained..."
    3. "But it was justified because we (way corps) had to have 'righteous anger.'"
    4. "We can point fingers."
    5. "We can say this person did this bad thing."
    6. "But what about a deep long hard look at what we did?"
    7. "We (way corps) were a part of it."

    I do not think it unreasonable that MarieP is getting some pushback from this confrontational post.  First of all, she may be a newbie to this site, but she and her husband are corps grads.  I would imagine that they've been around the block or two concerning confrontations.  There is plenty of ambiguity in her post.  Does she NOT want us "pointing fingers" and calling out wierwille, trustees, enablers, and those complicit with perpetuating this evil on the body of believers?

    The mission statement of this website is to tell the other side of the story concerning the trustees and twi.  When she posted on this site, is it her intention to say we've all sinned so stfu?  Is this her way of trying to be Christ-like.... when (as corps) she obviously knows that Jesus confronted the Pharisees for their religious manipulation and exploitation of the people?  

    Should I remind her what Christ-like love entails?  Luk 4:18 The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised.  It is NOT silence.... but stepping forth to help heal/comfort the brokenhearted who had their dreams and character smashed.  It's helping the captives (from cult indoctrination) to be set free.  And, detailing how they were spiritually blinded by deception so that they can walk in liberty, no longer bound by past guilt or experiences.




  5. 1 hour ago, Rocky said:

    I statements are not blaming. They are 

    An “I” message is not about being polite. It’s about being clear.  An “I” messages is not concerned with how the other person might respond.  An “I” message is not intended to force another person to “fix the problem.”  It is clear statement that says “this is how it looks from my perspective.”

    An “I” message says “this is how it looks from my side of things.”

    The "I" statements are fine.  No problem.

    The "us" and "we" statements add ambiguity to her post.


    On 3/15/2023 at 4:30 PM, MarieP said:

     All of us in The Way Corp did things we should not have done. We treated people the way we were trained and it wasn't always loving or kind. But it was justified because we had to have 'righteous anger'.  We can point fingers. We can say this person did this bad thing. But what about a deep long hard look at what we did? We were a part of it! 

    Sure, we all did things we should not have done as way corps.  Broad-brush statement and all.

    "But it was justified"..... why does MarieP think it was justified because of righteous anger.  It was NOT justified according to Scripture.  Who went around justifying all their actions by "righteous anger?"  I can't name one corps person who did this time and time again.  

    I'm simply clarifying my experience as opposed to hers.  What she claims as opposed to giving specificity to her claims.... I simply contest the "we" part.



    • Upvote 1
  6. 1 hour ago, chockfull said:

    While the initial elements contained some emotional awareness, GSC also is not a garbage dump for waylaid regret.  The lack of reconnecting and continuing a discussion you started is not emotional intelligence.  It is using others for an emotional release and a dumping ground.

    Yes, the lack of reconnecting to continue a conversation she started shows a lack of respect.  If all this was such “an epiphany of revelation”…. why did it wane so quickly?

    Maybe she will come back and give us a good reason for her absence.  It might be warranted, but for now…. we are left speculating.

    It certainly falls short in adding much depth to what we’ve discussed hundreds of times.  I don’t think she realizes how generic and mundane it sounds to those of us corps grads who experienced the abuse.


  7. 4 hours ago, Rocky said:

    Fair points. Nevertheless, "we in the corps" were duped. And yes, GSC has been sounding this alarm for more than two decades. Personally, I'm not offended even if she was engaged in a finger-pointing exercise. 

    No reader at GSC is obligated to refrain from finger-pointing, last I heard. :spy:

    For the record.... I didn't say that she was obligated to refrain from finger-pointing...

    What I said was....."But if this is a finger-pointing exercise that "we in the corps" were duped..... then she's very late to the party.  GSC has been sounding this alarm for some 22 years."

    Have a nice day, Rocky.  :wave:



  8. 3 hours ago, Rocky said:

    Fair points. Nevertheless, "we in the corps" were duped. And yes, GSC has been sounding this alarm for more than two decades. Personally, I'm not offended even if she was engaged in a finger-pointing exercise. 

    No reader at GSC is obligated to refrain from finger-pointing, last I heard. :spy:

    I ran for an elected position to the governing board of the school district my daughter attended, back in 1998. I faced a good bit of criticism, as candidates apparently always do. Thanks to a hit piece about my divorce in a community newspaper at the last moment, I lost the race. The criticism stung. At this point, this criticism doesn't bother me.

    You, Skyrider, have invested a lot and have valiantly made yourself vulnerable on GSC. That, I believe, is a solid indication of strength of character. I'm thankful for your input, both on this thread and over the years. :love3:


    Your points are well-taken, Rocky.  As I examine my response further.... I would agree that it's not MarieP per se, my response is more directed at twi-hierarchy that put us corps back on our heels with intimidation.  They would level an accusation in broad-stroke fashion to one individual and then proceed to lecture all of us on our failings.  This was Corps Training 101 m.o.

    All of us have come short of the glory of God whether we were corps or not.  All of us needed a savior.   The point I was trying to make was how this tactic is used.  I sat in enough corps meetings during my 20+ tenure in twi to understand its effects.  The way corps are an easy target, because they are caught between being "the representatives of twi's policies" and going forth to help others.  

    I certainly don't excuse the corps for bad behavior.  We know it was prevalent among hundreds of "leaders." Yet, there were some 3,500 corps more or less.  I suppose it's like any group of individuals.... you're always going to find 10-20% who are the bad apples, corrupted by greed, influence and power.

    Long before coming to GSC, I held these thoughts on twi-leadership, even wierwille.  When I graduated from the 9th corps, I vowed that I would NOT be like wierwille (brash, arrogant, short-tempered, etc).  Even as early as 1978, I started to see these red flags in twi.  Therefore, it didn't take "reading a book" for me to come to some sort of epiphany about this abuse.  Do I have regrets of my involvement?  Should I have exited earlier?  Would I have ended my marriage in divorce by leaving when I wanted to leave?  

    GSC has provided us with an open forum to discuss and process our twi-involvement.  It is a healthy exercise that one can process over time.  Having been subjected to a heavy dose of cult indoctrination involving leadership roles and tactics, more corps would be benefitted by this level of introspection.  By ignoring its effects, people can go through life with jaded perspectives and deceptive tactics masking as truth.



  9. 2 hours ago, Rocky said:

    I'm not sure someone posting rhetorical questions, suggesting readers examine their words/actions needs to verify her bone fides. I will review her OP, but right now do not recall her making any accusations or inappropriate claims. 

    As I stated before..... I find it intriguing that she came to GreaseSpot after "she started reading a book about The Way."  Has she read any of the thousands of threads here at GSC discussing some of these issues?  We don't know.  She doesn't say.  After leaving twi in 1986 (37 years ago).... "this book" caused an epiphany of insight?  Okay.... I can understand that.  BUT... Waydale/GreaseSpot have been around for 24 years and its message has spread far and wide.

    Maybe, she never crossed paths with anyone who was visiting GreaseSpot.... but then, after reading "this book" she come here to post her findings?  Yes, it's believable..... but odd.  One post and that's it?

    Maybe, this "we" is simply referring to her and her husband.  Okay. Then this is an account of her sorrow and repentance for following bad leadership and counsel.

    • "We treated people the way we were trained and it wasn't always loving or kind. But it was justified because we had to have 'righteous anger'.  We can point fingers. We can say this person did this bad thing. But what about a deep long hard look at what we did? We were a part of it!  I went through the Way Corp with my husband, and that is when I was fully indoctorinated. I know I hurt people because 'I was Way Corps'. I hurt my parents and my siblings by removing myself from them."

    Okay, MarieP... you and your husband treated people the way you were trained.  That's a broad, generic statement.  At times, I'm quite sure that most of us would say something similar..... but oftentimes, we chose the opposite.  We treated people the way Jesus Christ would minister to others.  I'm sure that I'm not alone is this.  Catcup, Sunesis, and dozens of posters have come forward to express how they protected their fellowships from encroaching twi-leadership.  This discernment didn't take 37 years to process.

    If this is MarieP's personal accounting of her and her husband coming to the full realization of being duped, then it stands as stated.  But if this is a finger-pointing exercise that "we in the corps" were duped..... then she's very late to the party.  GSC has been sounding this alarm for some 22 years.



  10. When religious or cult leaders walk in craftiness, they are also handling the word of God deceitfully.  How often have we seen this?  The Pharisees were known for their double-standards..... doing one thing in public, yet privately doing another.  Open rebuke at the pulpit, yet sinning in the privacy of their own lives.

    Why does this deception escape one's discernment?  Could it be that adulation and/or idolization has impaired this discernment?  How could clergy and corps grads follow Rosalie's leadership for 17 years after Martindale's ouster?  It nearly boggles the mind to see how many years it takes to untangle the web of lies and cult indoctrination once it takes hold.  This indoctrination is cancerous.

    And, true to form... it always seems to follow the same patterns.  The religious/cult leader likes to KEEP THE SPOTLIGHT ON YOU.... while s/he hides in the shadows.  They like to keep on the offense.... reframing the Scriptures to impose fear, guilt and confusion.  That's why their sermons become dead, because there is no living epistle to speak of.  They have succumbed to "deadness" inside.  I find it intriguing that a drive-by poster tells us how s/he took a "long hard look at herself/himself" and wanted to start this conversation.  Yet, several days later.... no reply.  Was this person serious?  What did we learn about MarieP that would give her credibility in this area?  Nothing more forthcoming?  Crickets.


    • Upvote 1
  11. 14 hours ago, OldSkool said:

    Lookie what I unearthed...


    OldSkool..... posted in 2003, that link is very telling of Rosalie's secret life.

    It seems apropos (fitting) on a thread entitled, "Taking responsibility. A long hard look at ourselves".... to examine the corresponding other side, namely twi-leadership (Rosalie).  How open, honest and forthcoming are they on details relating to their lives?  What kind of introspection have they done to rectify their mistakes and shortcomings?  What relationships have they reconciled or destroyed in their past?

    Well, insurgent (a poster on GSC) who worked as an editor in Way Publications and had direct involvement with Rosalie for a number of years tells us her perspective.  As an editor, insurgent's precise language is revealing....

    • Rosalie NEVER talks about her children or family. NEVER. She NEVER talks about the man that she married - then divorced - then remarried - then divorced again.

      To the best of my recollections (I may not be accurate, but I think I am), Rosalie has marked and avoided one of her sons.

      I can verify Linda Z's remark that Rosalie would have her secretaries tell Dr. Wierwille when he called, that she was out of the office, when in fact she wasn't. That fact is know only by a very few at HQ.

      In planning a Way International web site, it became increasingly apparent that one of the main road blocks to the implementation of a web site was the extreme concern on the part of Rosalie Rivenbark that her name and picture might have to be on the Web site.

      It was quickly decided that NO pictures of ANY trustees was the best way to go. This was decided in an attempt to keep Rosalie off of the internet.

      In talks with certain cabinet people at HQ, it was very apparent that Rosalie was desperate that she not featured on the web site. One cabinet person (who knows Rosalie very well)went as far as to say to me - "we don' t want Rosalie's picture and biographical sketch on the Internet because next thing you know, people will start to research her background, then they'll discover her New Bern, NC. connections and then they'll be nosing into all sorts of stuff" ...

    Wierwille was of the same mindset.  Not only was wierwille secretive of his past, but he LIED often or fabricated grandiose recollections of the wierwille family.  But when it came to the corps.... he wanted us to detail in writing "From Birth to Corps" papers that he and others could read and file away.  He encouraged (demanded) that we be as open and candid as possible.  Why did he need this information?  What does it say about them.... when they demand you reveal private information about yourselves?  Same deal with Momentus.  How did that go?

    Do the Scriptures encourage this?  When Jesus met with the woman caught in adultery, did he demand a full accounting of her actions and relationships?  No, he ministered to her and told her, "Go and sin no more."

    Reminds me of that verse... II Co 4:2 But have renounced the hidden things of dishonesty, not walking in craftiness, nor handling the word of God deceitfully; but by manifestation of the truth commending ourselves to every man's conscience in the sight of God. 

    What THEY do, we have renounced.  While they walk in craftiness, we do not.  When they handle the word of God deceitfully, we open up the truth of God's workings by living openly and righteously in the sight of God.



  12. 3 hours ago, chockfull said:

    This is a really good distinction.  Godly sorrow is accountability for recognizing the standard of Gods law and our failure to hit the mark.

    Some of the AA steps are taken from here.  Being earnest, apologies, zeal and concern for justice.  The idea you can approve yourself clear in a matter.

    Guilt seems different - a dwelling and absorption into sin consciousness.  Attaching to the emotions for much longer than it takes to “be clear in this matter”.  Never being clear in the matter.

    For me telling the truth here is part of my hard work to “be clear in this matter”.  As opposed to the accusations towards us here of beating a dead horse and a dead man and not moving on.

    My response is once the evil borg stops playing with peoples lives causing division in the body of Christ and teaching false doctrine I will be happy to stfu.

    One of the things twi attempted to do was..... preach 'guilt' even if it was undeserved guilt.  They would apply guilt with a broad brush to the corps with a pompous arrogance.  I distinctly remember wierwille standing before the corps and stating, "None of you know how to work."  As I sat in the audience, I said to myself.... "That's a lie. He has no idea about my life and background."  Wierwille had no idea I grew up on a farm and was doing chores, driving the tractor at age 10.  Years of hauling alfalfa bales, moving irrigation pipe, wheat harvesting, livestock management, etc.

    In my observation, I believe wierwille did this to those guys in Way Production as well.  Some of these professional guys had toured with Earth, Wind and Fire.  One of the guys composed his own music.  Yet, wierwille went to those High Country Caravan rehearsals and touted his "music bona fides."  Of course, wierwille was a consummate plagiarist....professional in all that he set his mind to do. LOL

    We were subjected constantly to undeserved guilt.... in attempts to motivate us to comply.



  13. 2 hours ago, chockfull said:

    Middle name.  Shumate or similar was the previous married name - who she had kids with and later abandoned them via mark and avoid.  She is a snake most women have natural affection towards their offspring.

    NDAs are telling.  They don’t want to reform the ministry they want to hide their actions from prosecution.

    ”Come on home, sign the NDA, shut up, and run the new PLaffy, and ABS”. 

    That is what they want.

    The truth is not what they want.

    Rosalie married shortly after high school (1958) to Rembert R. Rivenbark, Jr.

    Divorced him and by 1963.... she remarried.  Rosalie Fox Shumate.

    Divorced James M. Shumate, Jr.  in 1970.

    Rather than go back to maiden name Rosalie Fox.... she reattached with prominent name, Rivenbark.

    Rosalie F. Shumate




    • Upvote 1
  14. On 3/15/2023 at 4:30 PM, MarieP said:

    I started reading a book last night about The Way, and something hit me hard. We can all say this person and that person in the Way did this and that to me. We can point out all the flaws and abuse, mistreatment, etc. The book was courageous to say the least, but focused on what others had done to the person writing the book. I did not read any remorse for how they treated others. The writer was in the upper tier of the Way and at one time believed Dr. W was the man of god of the world. All of us in The Way Corp did things we should not have done. We treated people the way we were trained and it wasn't always loving or kind. 


    Before going into the Way Corps my husband and I had a fellowship in our little apartment that was wonderful. We all became good friends and had a lot of fun together. We were not pressured by the Limb C to run a class, and he stayed out of our lives pretty much. I regretted we left that sweet fellowhip for an ideal of becoming leaders.  I'm sure this post isn't as clear as I am trying to be. I guess all I'm saying is for us all to examine our own lives while we were in the Way, and repent for the things we now despise that we have accused others of. It has taken me years to get to this point, to be willing to ask for forgiveness. 

    I disagree.

    Maybe some corps treated people the way they were trained.... but I would venture to say that 85-90% of the corps did NOT do that.  You have to acknowledge that our corps training was over-the-top confrontational and obedient training. I highly doubt whether this "style" of leadership was effective on the field.  In fact, we were warned to NOT use these tactics on believers.  THIS WAS TRAINING.... not a how-to hand guide for running fellowship.

    In my experience, those who applied these hard-hitting tactics might rise to the region coordinator level.... where they are tasked with "keeping the coal shoveled into the locomotive engines" of each limb in their region.  In other words, most all their confrontation was leveled at limb coordinators.  With all the levels of subordination and activity, a hard-nosed leader could justify his confrontations in a number of ways.  Sure, there were instances of abusive leaders, and those who committed such acts should seek or have sought forgiveness.  But I have come to believe that there were a number of narcissists who liked this power over others and have little or no empathy for the abuse they caused.

    Whereas, those who sit in seats of power at headquarters were culpable of this abuse as well.  Wierwille could do his on-stage "you're the best" routine, but behind the scenes he wielded the power over the corps training.  He signed off on these tactics.  It is known here at GSC that wierwille was the instigator behind TFI (Total Fitness Institute), the super-charged LEAD training in California (TFI, the predecessor of LEAD).  Corps were put in large refrigerator boxes late at night to simulate a POW-scenario... where loud music was blared and provocateurs beat on the sides of these boxes with clubs.  Martindale tried to lead a revolt and failed miserably.  Maybe, that's where these early corps coordinators came up with abuse tactics.

    One one occasion in the 9th/7th corps training, George Hendley the corps coordinator felt it a need to summon all corps on a Sunday evening to put on their corps sweats and meet him in the back 40.  George was an old football jock who prided himself on his discipline to calisthenics.  So, when we gathered he had each branch assembled together and doing basic jumping jacks, push-ups, leg-lifts, etc. (anyone who played football knows these exercises).  Well, the more we ran-in-place.... the soft soil oozed with a muddy patch of glob.  As we did push-ups, the girls started complaining that their hair was getting all muddy.  The situation continued to escalate for another 40 minutes or so.... with confrontations leveled at certain branch leaders.  When it all ended, many of us ran back to our dorm showers and just stepped into those showers with sweats and all to wash away the mud and another confrontation episode.

    All of this definitely had aspects of the Stanford Prison Experiment in years to come, but the majority of corps fell on the side of the abused.  So, you are correct that some corps imitated the corps training tactics.... but it is incorrect to implicate the majority.  Some of us knew all-too-well how it felt to be the recipient of scathing confrontation and we didn't like or justify it one bit.



    • Like 1
  15. 10 minutes ago, chockfull said:

    I didn’t learn to be overly judgmental of my life in TWI.  Exactly the opposite.  I was Corps fulfilling Gods calling.  I was walking by revelation.  I was following the directives laid out in the household.

    When did I become “overly judgmental” of my life?  When I was shunned and manipulated and gaslighted to believe the negative things the Pharisees told me.  

    So what did I do?  Sought out a second opinion.  And told the first group and their opinion to pound sand.

    Yes, pound sand.  I took the same path and refused to harbor any guilt whatsoever.  My heart was right with God and I claimed it. 

    • Like 1
  16. 21 minutes ago, chockfull said:

    We did a fair amount of good for people and their lives while in.  We helped many navigate the policy waters of their insane approach to debt helping the best we could.  We protected the flock from evil intentions of overseers.  We tried our best to genuinely help them.

    Oftentimes, if and when I get overly-critical of my involvement in this pseudo-Christian outfit that morphed into a cult.... I remind myself that God looks on the heart.  He knows our longings, our desires, our inner thoughts.  So, with that.... I thank Him for His grace and mercy and move on.



    • Like 1
    • Upvote 1
  17. 1 hour ago, OldSkool said:

    This is the case for me seeing that Im an eyewitness of the white washing and such that went into hyper drive with theh Allen lawsuit and ensuing coverup. It seems many of us here were exposed to a lot of evils first hand and to expose it is how not to be culpable.

    Then theres the fact that becoming overly-judgemental of my own life is something I learned in the way international. So, obviously, I tossed that idea after leaving TWI to my own detriment. We should take heed to ourselves that we stand or fall but we don't even have the right to judge ourselves because we are bought with a price and our lives are not our own. Cool stuff everyone.

    Indeed.  :eusa_clap:

    • Like 1
  18. This conversation on introspection and self-examination is a healthy endeavor to explore.  Whether philosophically or spiritually, one is benefited greatly by this exercise to uncover the hidden things of darkness.  Some things remain hidden in our lives until the passage of time.

    Without being overly-judgmental of our own lives, could it be that God has us on "the right path" even though we lament our tenure in twi?  Could it be that until the passage of time, we were unable to receive, discern or examine the effects of standing before God without going through some "trials and tribulations" of our own?  In reading the Church Epistles, I find that the Apostle Paul gives us large sweeping swaths of truth regarding 1) Legalism and 2) Liberty.  On one side of the ledger, legalism in adherence to the law does not warrant one's own righteousness before God.  Even with his bloodline and high credentials (a Pharisee of the Pharisees and as touching the law, blameless), Paul fell short of the righteousness given from God by faith.  For indeed, it was in the power of Christ's resurrection and the fellowship of his sufferings that opened doors of grace and mercy.

    On the other side is Liberty in Christ.  Can one use this liberty as a license to sin?  No, because in this liberty one might inflict harm on another believer by being a stumbling block to his faith.  One is not to flaunt this liberty or be puffed up against another.  Life in Christ must be in moderation else the trappings of the flesh, lusts and lasciviousness surface from the hidden darkness attempt to overtake this man or woman in their folly.

    Even though I was involved in twi for 20+ years.... there were several years (ie -- "fog years") that twi-activity was crawling along and we were raising our boys.  During those times, we were engaged in life's simple activities and family time.  Walks in the park, swing sets, slides, swimming pools, hugs and laughter .... living life.  Other times, as years passed.... I think about fun activities with the believers.  Snow skiing in Canada, hockey games, volleyball, basketball, movies, barbeques, etc..... enjoying the fellowship of others.  So, when I approach this examination of "hurting others via twi-policies".... I try to give it some perspective through my years of involvement with twi.

    So, with some deeper perspective..... maybe we shouldn't beat ourselves up with a few missteps or zealousness to "do good."  Maybe, just maybe.... our tenure in twi has given us greater insight of youthful exuberance carried away by bad counsel. Could it have happened under another Christian organization or business endeavor?  Probably.  Look how much we gained through our experiences.  As Rocky and others like to always point out.... you and I wouldn't be able to help others with insight and guidance had we not taken this pathway in life.  We are the sum total of our experiences.

    Peace to all.




    • Like 3
  19. 5 hours ago, Rocky said:

    Btw, from a philosophical perspective, I agree with your point on who holds the greater sin. On a personal level, however, I don't necessarily want to compare whose sins are greater or lesser.

    Nevertheless, Brother Skyrider, I very much appreciate, agree on, and relate to the heartfelt reflection in your two posts/comments this evening.

    And MarieP, I too encourage you to stick around and continue the conversation. :wave:

    Yeah, Rocky.... we've been coming to GreaseSpot for 20+ years and there are lots of posts on introspection, the self-examination of our thoughts and actions while in twi.  Yes, wierwille and martindale were "pulling levers of power over us," but it's the response to these situations that expose our character.  What a person does in the quiet moments of their lives when no one is looking exhibits character.  It was quite clear to me that those who relished in confrontations were advanced forward to higher leadership, ie region coordinators.  But there were also good-hearted men and women who were positioned into leadership roles, because of damage control.  In other words, the previous leader had stirred up so much ill-will and conflict that he was no longer effective in ministering to the needs in the area... and new leadership was needed.

    Like any group of people.... you can NOT paint the whole group with the same brush.

    The way corps certainly had its share of bad-a$$ people, because of the corps training environment.  Some actually referred to some of these individuals as "Nazi-corps."  Those were the crazy-agitators.... always looking for the things to confront.  You know, the chair-stringing fanatic that wants to make sure that every chair is exactly aligned.  Or, the flowers near the podium had to be a certain height.  Or, the mints in the teacher's podium had to broken into three separate pieces for the teacher to use.  Legalism in a box tied with a bow.

    One of the things I learned about myself after exiting in 1998 was how twi used guilt to compel us to do things. I wrote about this in the thread entitled ........ GSC offers first, clear vision that twi-followers are caught in trap.

    • "When I exited twi in 1998, one of the first things I did was resolve to hold no sign of guilt.  Why should I hold any guilt over my own head and heart?  After all, THEY were the deceivers, the hucksters, the opportunists living off my sacrifice to serve twi.  Yet, guilt is one of their many weapons.  With incremental steps, each class gives them, they think, more access to govern our decisions and life.  Remember.....having finished the advanced class, twi sent out a form letter stating to the grad that, now, he/she 'owed his life to the ministry.'"
    • "One is quickly able to put twi's leadership at arms-length from any more encroachment the minute the weapon of guilt is removed!!  With luminous clarity and serenity, one begins to see that twi holds NO POWER over you unless you allow it.  Certainly, untangling this whole mess is a process.... but, for me, the beginning step was removing this guilt-weapon from further attacks on my conscience."

    Wierwille used guilt often at night owls and in his corps letters.  He knew corps grads were distancing themselves from their corps indoctrination.  It became more apparent with each passing year.

    That's why "taking a long hard look at ourselves" is SO VITAL.  This introspection, with others here at GSC, help us to see the blind spots that we might have in our own lives.  Together, we discuss and banter back-and-forth these elements and principles.  And, it is a process that TAKES TIME.  Not just by reading one book and then saying "a-ha" I now know what to do.  And it goes without saying that I hope MarieP returns to this conversation.... because it does take time to sort through the process.



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  20. 7 hours ago, MarieP said:

    I started reading a book last night about The Way, and something hit me hard. We can all say this person and that person in the Way did this and that to me. We can point out all the flaws and abuse, mistreatment, etc. The book was courageous to say the least, but focused on what others had done to the person writing the book. I did not read any remorse for how they treated others. The writer was in the upper tier of the Way and at one time believed Dr. W was the man of god of the world. All of us in The Way Corp did things we should not have done. We treated people the way we were trained and it wasn't always loving or kind. But it was justified because we had to have 'righteous anger'.  We can point fingers. We can say this person did this bad thing. But what about a deep long hard look at what we did? We were a part of it!  I went through the Way Corp with my husband, and that is when I was fully indoctorinated. I know I hurt people because 'I was Way Corps'.

    MarieP..... thank you for your post and I hope you stick around a bit.  So often, we read these kinds of posts and the poster never seems to return to follow up on a conversation that s/he started.

    The Way Ministry, and specifically the way corps training, presented a conundrum for many of us.  We were often told that this was "training" and not how to treat our fellow believers in fellowship.  After all, there was strong confrontation in the way corps to drive home the concepts of obedience and faithfulness, but for those who kept to scripture the confrontations were less impactful.  

    Here at GreaseSpot, there have been several threads started on how way corps deemed it their responsibility TO PROTECT their fellowships FROM martindale and upper-tier leadership.  I do not believe we were justified in having 'righteous anger'..... guess I never bought into that concept even while in twi.  In fact, a discerning person (ie -  way corps) didn't have to mimic this over-the-top behavior by some leadership.  Throughout my experience in corps, as a corps grad, and in leadership roles.... I can easily say that what you describe was not true for every corps grad.  But if the shoe fits... wear it.

    I believe all of us will give an account of our actions.  Have I taken a long hard look at what I did?  Yes, and I believe that most of my actions fall on the good side of the ledger.  I don't know if the 80-20 rule applies in this situation, but I would suggest that lots of corps went into the corps training to serve others not badger them with daily confrontation.  Remember, quite often.... corps coordinators were confronting one person's attitude or behavior in a room full of 300+ individuals who did NOTHING WRONG.  How does one extrapolate this information?  Should we wield 'righteous anger' in our branch fellowships when only one person misbehaves?  No.  We should find time to pull that person aside and teach them why their behavior/actions were out of order.  That's loving and proper in the context of teaching someone scriptural integrity not just twi "righteous anger protocol."

    Some of us have been at this website for 20 years and have discussed these issues over and over again.  Yet, in the past 20-30 years.... has twi leadership changed their methods?  Nope.  They carry on in the same mode as wierwille did back in the '70's.  Who holds the greater sin?  Those of us who've repented and helped others to see the errors in twi's teachings or the hierarchy at headquarters?  I fully understand your point in "taking a hard look at ourselves" in this matter.  Well, that's what we've been doing for 20+ years here at GSC.

    I hope you stick around and further this conversation.  If you disappear after starting this thread, then it speaks for itself.  Engaging conversation is a very healthy way forward for all of us.

    Peace to all.



    • Like 2
  21. 8 hours ago, T-Bone said:


    So that we no longer be children, tossed and carried about with every wind of doctrine by the sleight of men in cunning craftiness, with a view to the systematizing of the error;


    Specific to twi-followers..... "every wind of doctrine" = pfal

    Every time followers sit in another pfal class, newer version or tangent teachings, the wind gales are strengthened.  Adding to these winds is the constant idolizing of wierwille on a spiritual pedestal.  These two factors, pfal and wierwille, keep the winds of deceit blowing twi-followers off their chartered course.  They are tossed in a turbulent sea unable to reach the fair haven shores of Christ's love.

    As intended, the craftiness of twi's leadership invites this turbulence.  It keeps the "believer" dependent on twi-teachings to guide them to "safety."  



    • Like 1
  22. 6 hours ago, T-Bone said:

    Hey Skyrider, check out “systematizing” used in Ephesians 4:14 in alternate versions

    A Faithful Version

    So that we no longer be children, tossed and carried about with every wind of doctrine by the sleight of men in cunning craftiness, with a view to the systematizing of the error;

    Darby Bible Translation

    in order that we may be no longer babes, tossed and carried about by every wind of that teaching [which is] in the sleight of men, in unprincipled cunning with a view to systematized error;



    Skyrider Translation

    In order that we are no longer groupthink followers, burdened by dogmatic doctrine from a cult of deceivers and men of the flesh, hiding behind Scriptures and parasites who feed from the host of goodwill service to others.



  23. When wierwille taught pfal, he emphasized that this word..., pfal class fits like "a hand in a glove.  It works over and over with a mathematical exactness and a scientific precision."  In other words, it sounds like he's clarifying that it's arranged according to a system, reduced to a system.

    With sparkling clarity, it's like a diamond on a velvet cloth.  One has to admire its beauty.

    In my opinion, when wierwille referenced "the Word".... he was referencing his pfal class.  This narcissistic view was in admiration of his work, not God's written word that came via holy men who received revelation and wrote and spoke as they were moved by holy spirit.  Wierwille deemed himself to be in that category alongside the Apostle Paul who received revelation by Jesus Christ and brought forth a new administration of Grace.  Wierwille, on the other hand, brought forth a systemizing control over others as he dismissed the Four Gospels Declaring God's Offspring, the Lord Jesus Christ as pertinent to a believer's life.

    With a narcissist perspective..... wierwille was bound to make systematic errors.  His premise was NOT correctly placed on the cornerstone of Christianity, but on the sand of collapse.  From this foundation, there was no way that it would sustain the test of time.  As has been discussed at length here at GSC, these teaching errors burdened the people, adding bondage and destruction to those who trusted solely in its declaration of truth.  Therefore, year after year.... more escaped to fair havens of common sense and spiritual growth in other places.  Yet, those who stand to profit via this control over others.... twi and splinter group hierarchy remain loyal to the system that feeds them. They will not abandon it, because it is their ticket to comfort, ease and present-day adulation.... none of which would be available if they were to get real jobs.

    It takes a certain personality disorder and laziness to want to control others.  Rather than find common elements through goods and services, these men traffic in the merchandising of others.  They persist in agitating others with fear, guilt and confusion to keep the masses faithful and obedient.  And, behind the mask, lies men who succumb to lusts, favors, drunkenness and sexual predation to feed the lusts of the flesh.  Forms of self-destruction encompass the man (men) who lives in this corrupted state of mind.  And, the enablers hide this destitution in order to prop up their own gains.

    This Subjugation Game is like a ponzi scheme.... it only works when newbies keep coming through the door.  Because the middle-age and older crowd realized the game that was being played and slipped out the door.  So, it is with twi's efforts presently.  What's the new class that they just released?  Power for Abundant Living Today.  Could it be any more generic?  LOL.  Could it be any more sycophant towards giving adulation to wierwille?  And, the young buck "teachers" promoting it.....ponzi scheme mania.  I suppose in another 15-20 years they, too, will find the exit doors and Rosalie, Howard and Wanda (along with many staffers) will be in the grave.  But hey.... they got to run out the clock by staying in this lane of deception.

    No wonder that many states are reduced to 20-30 twi-followers who attend those fellowships.  

    Hopefully, these GSC-warnings will reach many more before the inevitable collapse of it all.



  24. 3 hours ago, waysider said:


    The routine did occasionally vary, but this was a typical day... Self funded.


    waysider.... hats off to you for such dedicated commitment.

    In the corps, we had 1/2 day work assignments.... some worked the mornings, the others worked the afternoon shift.  Generally, three days a week we had to be at *top floor wierwille library* seated by 5:20am.  When I roomed at Owens Hall (18 men per room).... alarm clocks started going off at 4am, 4:15am, 4:30am and 4:45am.  It was annoyingly crazy.  Some of us would go to the track at 4am and run a mile or two.

    We had meetings to schedule the next meeting.... with some 325 people in the 9th corps, plus another 150 or so 7th corps, we had branch meetings, twig meetings, household responsibility meetings, corps night meetings confrontational meetings and after-glow meetings (late meetings after corps night).  I swear every leader had a few verses of scripture that they were hot on that day.  At one stretch.... we were going through Romans on Corps Nights, John Lynn was teaching Thessalonians during study hall afternoons, and we were required to study Ephesians for our twig assignment.  Plus, there were all the other side teachings on Christian Etiquette, Song Leading, Jet-Style Packing, Knowles Breathing, Food Nutrition, Menstrual Cycles, Ovulation Method of Birth Control, Budgeting, etc.

    Without working in the community... we were subjected to more isolation, more immersion, more indoctrination.  They could call a campus "Red Alert" and we all had to be at top floor wierwille library in 10 minutes,  You never know when there might be a Red Dawn Overthrow attack on God's crack troops.

    We were subjected to confrontations daily.... even if only ONE PERSON screwed up.  It was supposedly our lot in life to learn from his/her mistakes.  Fear and intimidation were the name of this game.  Wierwille started this pattern and every corps coordinator seemed to replicate this tactic.  No matter that the scriptures instruct us to go to that person one-on-one and confront the issue.  If not resolved, then take two or three witnesses to strength the message... and THEN, if not received to take it to the body of believers at large.

    So much of our training was not the teachings themselves, but the methods that made twi a cult.

    With such dismal corps sign-ups, you'd think that those guys would look in the mirror and ask hard questions, right?




    • Like 1
  25. BecomingMe ......."Yeah, my traumatized a$$ wants to come "home"...how many of you got these?!


    Revisiting your post got me thinking that by sending this postcard to you..... THEY (Rosalie, Donna and others) are showing spite, a desire to annoy, vex or injure you further.  This is malicious intent.

    They could have easily picked up the phone and called you.  More than that, surely they understand your desire to separate and distance yourself from them and the traumatized childhood you experienced.  By sending this postcard to you.... they are crossing boundary lines (AGAIN) and trying to impose their will.  This is not Christian, this is malicious evil.  Your exiting twi and boldly coming to GSC to declare your independence is a scathing rebuke of all that they stand for... so they're lashing back at you.  It only verifies the spiteful, vengeful wasteland that they inhabit.


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