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skyrider

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Posts posted by skyrider

  1. 7 hours ago, Nathan_Jr said:

     Last year, when I first read this article, I was mildly disappointed that victor paul wierwille and TWI were mentioned as a mere side note, an incidental triviality.

    Tonight, after a more careful second reading, it seems to me Steve and Sandi Heefner’s summer on the farm in Ohio with victor paul wierwille is no incidental plot ornament. It is the critical turning point, the beginning of the end, for the House of Acts.

    When the Heefner’s return from Ohio, the ministering and generosity end, and the “teaching,” accusations of legalism and divisions begin.

     

    Wierwille's mode of operation was vastly different from the House of Acts.  With wierwille, it was.... "you can stay until your money runs out."  He demanded payment for disinformation services rendered.  Generosity ended at the point of the dollar bill.  If you couldn't pay your way forward, then your way forward was NOT part of "the Way."

    And more.... even when you DID pay, wierwille expected free labor if you hung around.  The Way headquarters was run this way and so was the corps program.  You paid your own way or with sponsorship money.... and you were assigned 1/2 day work projects.  Whether it was sweeping the walks or weeding the flower beds, no one was allowed to sit around in the sunshine and meditate.  Nor was there any encouragement to go downtown and minister the teachings of Jesus to others.  All campus efforts were to maintain and manicure the grounds.

    Was wierwille revealing his agenda when he said (??)...."The reason the Dead Sea is so dead is because it has all inlets, no outlets."

     

     

     

  2. On 7/6/2022 at 10:58 PM, little_rock said:

    What was one of the benefits of the PFAL class? Enable you to separate truth from error? Well we don't have to worry about that any more, they stopped the PFAL classes, from what I've heard. And no more Rock of Ages? Amazing. No more Camp Gunnison? No more Way College of Emporia? I guess some people came to their senses. At one point, I had considered joining the Way Corp. God must have told me not to do that. I am so glad I listened. 

    You know the old saying, what doesn't kill you will only make you stronger. Amen to that! 

    Yep.... lots of changes through the years.  The pfal class was in need of replacement... it was so outdated in its presentation and features.  I highly suspect, also, that twi wanted to clean up some of the claims and disinformation that wierwille offered up as biblical truths.

    The Rock of Ages had outlived its use.  The annual pilgrimage to western Ohio was becoming a grind.... except to hook-up with old friends.  The daily schedule of the roa had lost its zeal as the "Family Tables" of music, sharings and skits ran dry.  And, the way corps were tired and overworked, especially when wierwille mandated that all corps grads attend Corps Week AND the rock of ages.  With drive time, that resulted in many corps away from their homes and jobs for three weeks!  As twi moved into the '80's, the corps grads were NOW having babies and pushing strollers at corps week/roa.  With wives and mothers taking care of babies, most of the work force was men.  Wierwille became increasingly frustrated that his corps work force was dwindling.  Many corps were started to slip away from the roa and head home early.

    IMO.... wierwille was a narcissist.  With his focus on "teaching the scriptures from the Big Top".... wierwille was a taskmaster with very little empathy for others.  He didn't perceive the growing need for corps grads to take care of responsibilities at home.  Therefore, as corps grads grew frustrated with this arrangement, they kept stepping away from twi each year with accelerating pace.  The young, single corps were NOW parents with careers, families and growing responsibilities.  The pop and flare of roa was fizzling away.

    Along with the exodus of corps was the exodus of excitement and zeal.  The corps were no longer promoting others to "go corps."  The program was turning detrimental to having a productive life.  Thus, there was no need for the Emporia Campus.  Every program was scaling back.  The Rome City campus still had a structure of support as it was housing, teaching and meetings all under one roof.  And, closer to headquarters for commuting back and forth.  Whereas Camp Gunnison was viable as an investment and summer "camps".... although interest in having one's life monitored while on vacation (at camp) is deemed undesirable by most.  Who wants twi to be looking over your shoulder when you generally have one vacation per year?

    For me, my memories of roa were only favorable for the first 3-4 years.  After that, the "newness" had worn off and, as corps, it became another work week.  Some of us were pulling a second shift of duty when others didn't show up for work at the breakfast tent or cold storage in the warehouse.  Generally, the in-residence corps were assigned the lowly jobs of porta-pottie cleanup and/or trash detail.

     

     

     

     

  3. 22 hours ago, JoyfulSoul said:

    This won't be popular...

    I went to the ROA in '87 and '88.  To this day that's what I think about as loving Christian community.   Nothing else has been close.

    I hadn't been exposed to all the corruption I later heard about.  For a new person it was just the most loving, uplifting environment.   I was sky high.

     

    Adding further..... those who were committed to "the simplicity that is in Christ [II Corinthians 11:3] and not corrupted were the most loving followers in Christ.  To this day, I believe that some got involved in twi with the purest motives and hearts.  They simply loved to give and serve others believing that God called them to serve.  When this involves a community of loving service to others.... it truly is electrifying.

    I, too, saw this on occasion.... but most often it is found at the ground level, not in hierarchy circles of elitism.

     

     

    • Upvote 1
  4. 21 hours ago, JoyfulSoul said:

    This won't be popular...

    I went to the ROA in '87 and '88.  To this day that's what I think about as loving Christian community.   Nothing else has been close.

    I hadn't been exposed to all the corruption I later heard about.  For a new person it was just the most loving, uplifting environment.   I was sky high.

    A friend came back from WOW totally blown away by God.  My brother went to ROA that second year and he was lit up.

    I later brought my nephew in 1993 and all the fizz was gone.  The immaculate grounds were no longer immaculate.  It just sucked.

    I didn't go WOW.  I didn't go Corps.  TWI was a major stepping stone for me leaving college atheism and licentiousness and eventually linking arms with mainstream Christianity.  Sorry for all who were hurt.  Really sorry for anyone still harboring bitterness.

    JoyfulSoul.... welcome to GSC.

    When you went to ROA in '87 and '88..... allow me to give you another perspective.  The mass exodus in 1986 was spurred by Chris Geer's paper, "The Passing of a Patriarch" (featuring wierwille's leadership of twi) and subsequent excoriating confrontation to the corps household in general.  This unfair and biased confrontation spread fear and confusion.... resulting in nearly 80% of corps to exit twi.  Thus, the following ROAs in '87 and '88 were significant changes of adaptation and posturing from the trustees.  Simply put, those years were aberrations from former ROAs.

    The reasons why those two or three years (ROA - '87, '88 and '89) were so loving and uplifting is because Craig, Don, and Howard got off "their high horses" and came down to the level of the followers.  They mingled in the crowds and showed their appreciation for our faithfully standing with them.  Looking back, I see that self-promotion and hidden agendas were lurking nearby.  Had the trustees TRULY CHANGED.... then these changes would have continued in 1993 where you admit that "the fizz was gone."  So, the question becomes...."was the fizz REALLY there" or was this subterfuge?  I highly contend that it was subterfuge, a stratagem used to deceive and conceal the long agenda.  This "long agenda" was to keep followers in twi-servitude and keep the gravy train rolling down the tracks.

    Thankfully, you didn't get taken in by this subterfuge.  You didn't go WOW or corps and eventually linked arms with mainstream Christianity.  You didn't waste 5, 10, or 20 years of your life following in what one might describe as pseudo-Christianity, or worse, a cult.

    Some of us were hurt, but I don't come to GSC harboring bitterness.  I come to GSC to warn others.  There is a vast difference.

    Peace.

     

     

  5. 1 hour ago, Rocky said:

    I know that. As far as people not rejecting Wierwilleism, or any other cult, I don't know why.

    I suspect some cult researchers may have some insight. I haven't read them yet.

    Hey Rocky.... my response was not necessarily directed at you.  It's just that when you said, "How human of them"..... I thought of the human response to neglect obvious reality by quipping, "Other than that, how was the class....play, Mrs. Lincoln."

    Translation:  Other than wierwille being a serial plagiarist, lying, low-life, drunkard predator..... that pfal class was great, wasn't it?!

     

     

    .

  6. 5 hours ago, WordWolf said:

    I think we can agree, with 20/20 hindsight, 

    that the Jesus People/Jesus Freaks movement was a genuine movement of God's people (for those who believe in such things) that was partly strangled by greedy and jealous religious folk who worked hard to get the movers to give up their callings as primary and subordinate them to the task of becoming the recruitment arms of their organizations.   They were still SOMEWHAT effective there, but with all sorts of religious claptrap being tacked on, became progressively less effective, thus prematurely ending something that might have significantly changed the public landscape of the USA.

    Several people have come forward on GSC to provide insight on the Jesus Movement.

    Sunesis comments on movement

    The Jesus Hippie Movement

     

     

  7. 22 hours ago, waysider said:

    Yeah, I remember back when guys from the first twig I was in (1972) joined the Way Corps. They came home at Christmas and were talking about how you could live a more abundant life by using less toothpaste and saving old buttons. I should have run for the hills, right then and there.

     

    edit: The last time I looked these guys up, a couple of years ago, they were no longer active with The Way, but still deeply entrenched in all things Wierwille.

    What is it about cults that keeps people "hooked"..... even AFTER they separate from The Way?

    What could it possibly be?  A combination of things?

    • They have this attachment to their youth and days of nostalgia?
    • They want to be right..... not able to admit their errors of judgment?
    • They really do have a man-worship association with wierwille?
    • Breaking free of mother-cult.... gives them a false sense of "growing up?"
    • Living under "wierwille's roof"..... they are sheltered living in the basement?
    • This mental disorder gives them license to "stay in their youth?"
    • Others?

    I guess, even if these corps grads and advanced class grads (300-1,000 people??)  live in their little echo chamber till the day they pass away.... what harm will it do?  Sure, family members are affected and a few in the communities at large.... but how many people dismiss their ramblings as quirks in society?  There are plenty of people in cults everywhere.  And, there are fringe trappings that obsess others.... occultists, witch covens, UFO sightings, Big Foot, Loch Ness, Abominable Snowman, etc.  

    It just seems to me that there is a "convenience" to have their little world wrapped with a bow.  They like how it looks and feels under the Christmas tree.  It makes them feel good, special and important.  It all comes back to being **self-absorbed**.... not caring one whit as to all the questions that swirl around the illogic of it all.  Obviously, that doesn't bother them, because they refuse to address it in conversation or debate.  They like their little world of make-believe.

     

     

  8. 21 minutes ago, waysider said:

    Yeah, I remember back when guys from the first twig I was in (1972) joined the Way Corps. They came home at Christmas and were talking about how you could live a more abundant life by using less toothpaste and saving old buttons. I should have run for the hills, right then and there.

     

    edit: The last time I looked these guys up, a couple of years ago, they were no longer active with The Way, but still deeply entrenched in all things Wierwille.

    What’s it gonna take?  Another 20 years before these guys die off?

  9. Was wierwille projecting a sin-conscious scenario by telling the story of the drunk at the back of the church?

    • Translation:  Wierwille WAS the drunk who came and sat at the back of the church.  He sat and listened to the pastor's sermon and was unrepentant.  The church didn't help him.  In fact, the drunk ends up lecturing the preacher for his preaching a negative sermon.  In confrontation, the drunk tells the preacher, "I could tell you more about alcoholism than you'll ever know (not exact, but close)." 
    • So, supposedly.... the drunk gets in the last word.  And, the pastor vows in his heart not to ever preach another negative sermon.
    • Score:  Drunk 1 --- Preacher 0

     

     

    .

  10. 2 hours ago, skyrider said:

    I didn't realize that Maggie Muggins, Snowball Pete or Henry Boloco were Canadian fictitious characters stolen from Rev. B.G. Leonard's class, "Gifts of the Spirit."  In fact, Maggie was quite popular in a Canadian children's radio and television series.  Perhaps, its only fitting that Maggie appears in pfal..... as if wierwille is teaching little children the basics in the bible.  So, wierwille didn't even have enough imagination in his brain [narcissists are lazy, it comes with the personality disorder] to create his own pfal characters? 

    Wierwille stole Maggie, Snowball and Henry from B.G's class.  Pathetically lazy.

    What Maggie Muggins told us about wierwille

     

     

  11. 34 minutes ago, chockfull said:

    I think they certainly set the stage.  The conspiracy theory I think grew as the ecumenical push faded.  The 60s Way Ecumenical Bible Center (BRC) faded as few stayed with and tithed to VPs ministry after the PFAL class and went back to their churches.

    The 70s brought a younger more drugged up group with less critical thinking.  Conspiracy theory there was easy to plant and maintain.  All the heads of denominations are “seed of the serpent” a Branham based term.

    The 80s were transfer of power and loss of 80% of numbers.  The Poop paper further enhanced conspiracy theory and made directors extremely paranoid.  The 2nd prez antics caused lawsuits and defending them became more important than truth.  This continued for 20 years.

    Now in the 2020 era we have a new invigorated group.  The ongoing investments from the around $65m left don’t cover all the bills.  So they are doing a membership push changing nothing. 

    The culmination of their “advanced” teaching consists of reading OT records, devil spirit zoology and conspiracy theory.  Taught in isolation over 2 weeks, with share groups overseen by Corps, this class cements in the isolation from the rest of Christianity.  And sets the pattern for all your laity.  

    The leadership body has no backing but a label like the most extreme of the military branches the Marines.  The most extreme get the biggest rewards.  

    Underlying it all is victim blaming and the law of believing and mental assent being the monster in the closet that a leader can bring out on the attack in any situation.

    Those are some patterns I observed.

    Yes. They set the stage for more diverging tangents in the future.  One of the more interesting things in all this…. is wierwille built this adulation-platform on which he stood, but with no credentials or power-in-action.  Sounds so similar to L. Ron Hubbard in Scientology.

  12. 30 minutes ago, skyrider said:

    No, I don't think the traveling salesman pictured a "Thelma and Louise" ending when he feared traveling down the road.

    So, you're right waysider.  Where are the specifics in the other stories?

     

    Every story in pfal had generic elements that easily appear to be made up.  Again, it points to a man who was plugging in fake details of a typical story that could possibly relate to others.  The concern that a traveling salesman might wreck his car….. sheeesh.  No more imagination than that?  Doing the story-hustle.

     

  13. 32 minutes ago, OldSkool said:

    But....but....but....God brought these great men of God to wierwille so he could uhh...steal...I mean make their material error free and teach it to his keds like it hadnt been known since the first century....it hadnt been known since the first centure because it never was known in the first century....wierwilles law of believing came from Phineas Parkhurst Quimby who was the driving force behind Mary Baker Eddy who founded Christian Science. Late 1800s != to first century.

    Sounds more like an opportunist and shady huckster.

    • Like 1
  14. 5 minutes ago, waysider said:

    Isn't it interesting? When the lady wanted drapes, she had to get specific. And I mean VERY specific. Not just drapes. Not just red drapes. FIRE ENGINE RED drapes.

    Meanwhile, no make, model or color was required for the little boy to meet an untimely death.

    Did the salesman picture himself dying in a head-on collision with a dump truck? Pulverized on a railroad crossing? Missing a turn and plunging head first over a cliff?

    Why, if I was a bettin' man, I would have to conclude that, compared to believing for positive results, believing for negative results is  a piece of cake.

     

    No, I don't think the traveling salesman pictured a "Thelma and Louise" ending when he feared traveling down the road.

    So, you're right waysider.  Where are the specifics in the other stories?

     

  15. 16 hours ago, T-Bone said:

    Interesting thoughts, Skyrider!

    And I suspect there might be more to wierwille’s misleading followers by diverting attention away from his bad behavior – but not from his glory as our champion of evil exposing our enemy. I believe with his fixation on demonology – he established a stranglehold on my faith in God. I can easily recall many times in my 12 years with The Way International that my go-to strategy for ‘dealing with the adversary’ was referring to something wierwille taught whether in PFAL or other works. That’s a great form of control to have on someone. wierwille was my reference point.

    Would it be safe to say that those earlier teachings on fear and negative believing were a pretext to the demonology fixation that came later?

     

  16. 16 hours ago, skyrider said:

    But then.... I began to sense that all the emphasis on the devil had a divergent tactic.... it kept wierwille from highlighting God in his life.

    Even the few examples that wierwille cited in pfal were suspect.  Why was no one around to witness these moments?  Wierwille makes reference the closing down the fortune teller's stand at the local fair (if I recall that correctly).  And, first of all.... did it really happen?  Or, the revelation "white heart / black heart" story and how God was teaching wierwille revelation?  I just find these sporadic examples suspect.... since I never saw wierwille operate any revelation/power manifestations in the 70's or 80's.  What's up with that?

    With the rarity of any power manifested, did wierwille spend more time on how the devil operates to keep us from spotting his fraudster ways?  After all, he couldn't spotlight his OWN LIFE as a testimony for this power of God, now could he?  Thus, he and martindale go into great lengths to show how the devil operates.  Same with Athletes of the Spirit....... what is more glamorized is the Devil.  All the unique costume designs, the music rips and squeals, the fire bursts, the sensual gyrations, and allure.  The "believers" seem bland, obedient and unappealingly faithful.  No contest:  the devil is glorified throughout.

    Just like in pfal when wierwille doesn't want someone to criticize the tie he is wearing, or his clothing.... or soon, we "get down to the bare facts!"  Wierwille surely didn't want to come across as the emperor who wore no clothes.  He wanted you to see what he let you see: a prominent preacher, a man of God.... not a phony counterfeit.  His stories in pfal belie a deeper truth.  The things wierwille was trying so hard to hide.

    I suppose, in a sense, one could say that wierwille was hiding his lack of credentials and God-experiences behind stories, characters, one-liners, false or shady principles..... not just demonology.  Most all of us got our first exposure to wierwille via the pfal class.  Some of us old-timers didn't even get to see him teach the class.... we sat in audio classes.

    Not having done any research on The Way International in New Knoxville, Ohio.... I plunged right in by taking the word of wow ambassadors.  They said that the class was the most extensive, biblical research class ever presented.  I said okay and paid my $85 fee...donation. 

    I didn't realize that Maggie Muggins, Snowball Pete or Henry Boloco were Canadian fictitious characters stolen from Rev. B.G. Leonard's class, "Gifts of the Spirit."  In fact, Maggie was quite popular in a Canadian children's radio and television series.  Perhaps, its only fitting that Maggie appears in pfal..... as if wierwille is teaching little children the basics in the bible.  So, wierwille didn't even have enough imagination in his brain [narcissists are lazy, it comes with the personality disorder] to create his own pfal characters?  Hallmark traits of a narcissist.

    Stories in pfal (in no specific order):

    1. Believing for red drapes --- emphasizing positive believing
    2. Mother who fears her child's death --- negative believing
    3. Traveling salesman --- fearful of car crash, negative believing
    4. Drunk in back of church --- don't preach negative sermons
    5. Sign on billboard, "millions now smoking" --- ???

    So, most all these stories were filler food....er, taught to convince us of the "law of believing."  Obviously, wierwille wanted to cement this "law" into our thinking patterns by giving it such weight.  In hindsight, it seems like this was one of the cornerstones NEEDED to build a faithful following....ie scare the hell out of them if they succumb to negative believing.  Or, if they don't choose to give "believing" proper allegiance in one's daily life.  Sure seems, now, that pfal was filled with molding us into "right character conduct" rather than teaching foundational principles in the bible.

    Wierwille had no credentials to stand on.  No real certifiable colleges of a Bible Seminary.... just radio preachers and other men who traveled the highways running retreats and conventions.  Those are the 10-12 men with whom wierwille credits his studies of biblical research were launched.  These renegade preachers off the grid held sway over cult-like followers who attended their retreats, events.  Wierwille patterned his ministry in this manner.

     

  17. 3 hours ago, OldSkool said:

    Makes wierwille sound increibly inept on all counts. Why didnt the MOGFODAT heal his buddy? Drinking buddy at that. Howard is one of the biggest creeps out there. Ive heard from countless people where Howard had made crude remarks to married women, sexually harassing them. He was into adultery the same as wierwille and it was common knowledge back in 2008 when I was still at HQ. But wierwille loved talking about how special his believing was, and how much he labored for us all and how his believing basically held the world together from descending into chaos. Bullshonta at its finest.

    Howard.... just like his mentor, wierwille.  A sexually-harassing creep.

    On my wedding day, Howard Allen is going to walk my bride down the aisle.  Martindale is the presiding minister over the wedding ceremony.  Monty H0bbs is my best man.  The four of us are in the back room of the BRC awaiting for the proceedings to begin. Howard had been hitting the hard stuff, because I could smell it on his breathe and noticed him slurring a bit.  Anyways, as we're waiting.... he comes over to me and says, "I like running with _________ (my bride's name), because I like to watch her boobs bounce."  Imagine the creep that he is.... to say this on my wedding day and he's the sleaze who will be escorting her down the aisle and "giving her away."

    So readers and lurkers.... just know that Howard has a flirty, harassing underbelly to his emeritus-irrelevance. 

    Peace to all.

     

     

    • Like 1
  18. After setting markers in pfal regarding the scope of fundamental principles and holy spirit field.... wierwille and twi-leadership spent more time preaching/talking about the devil than the things of God.  At first (1976-1978), I thought that wierwille was simply preparing us to understand the multi-faceted workings of our adversary.  Yes, we went through the dozens of names that he is called in the Scriptures.... ie. Lucifer, Satan, serpent, Antichrist, God of this world, Prince of the power of the air, Father of Lies, Beelzebub, Belial, Great fiery red dragon, dragon,  destroyer, enemy, thief, evil spirit, adversary, tempter, wicked one, son of wickedness, etc. So, with all these different names, surely God wants us to pay attention to this.

    But then.... I began to sense that all the emphasis on the devil had a divergent tactic.... it kept wierwille from highlighting God in his life.

    Even the few examples that wierwille cited in pfal were suspect.  Why was no one around to witness these moments?  Wierwille makes reference the closing down the fortune teller's stand at the local fair (if I recall that correctly).  And, first of all.... did it really happen?  Or, the revelation "white heart / black heart" story and how God was teaching wierwille revelation?  I just find these sporadic examples suspect.... since I never saw wierwille operate any revelation/power manifestations in the 70's or 80's.  What's up with that?

    With the rarity of any power manifested, did wierwille spend more time on how the devil operates to keep us from spotting his fraudster ways?  After all, he couldn't spotlight his OWN LIFE as a testimony for this power of God, now could he?  Thus, he and martindale go into great lengths to show how the devil operates.  Same with Athletes of the Spirit....... what is more glamorized is the Devil.  All the unique costume designs, the music rips and squeals, the fire bursts, the sensual gyrations, and allure.  The "believers" seem bland, obedient and unappealingly faithful.  No contest:  the devil is glorified throughout.

    Just like in pfal when wierwille doesn't want someone to criticize the tie he is wearing, or his clothing.... or soon, we "get down to the bare facts!"  Wierwille surely didn't want to come across as the emperor who wore no clothes.  He wanted you to see what he let you see: a prominent preacher, a man of God.... not a phony counterfeit.  His stories in pfal belie a deeper truth.  The things wierwille was trying so hard to hide.

    Does anyone remember wierwille's story about the time when Howard Allen was deathly sick?  The story I remember hearing was wierwille and Howard were on the motor coach coming back from an itinerary.  Howard fell deathly sick.  And, wierwille had trouble attending to the driving AND helping Howard to get him to a hospital or home.  Anyways, not far down the road was a hitch-hiker standing alongside the road and wierwille pulled over to pick him up.  This guy was instrumental in helping Howard while wierwille kept driving.  Apparently, as they got near home and Howard was no longer in serious condition, the hitch-hiker asked to be let off at a certain spot.  Wierwille claimed that this "guy" was an angel sent by God to minister to Howard.  A phenomenon.  I always pondered why wierwille didn't minister healing to Howard... if, as he taught, that gifts of healing was one of the nine manifestations.

    Wierwille sure gave the devil his due throughout his ministry..... and then some.

     

     

     

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    • Upvote 1
  19. 4 hours ago, OldSkool said:

    Yes they were. Watching the entire time, tying us in knots with fear of a negative confession. I am so thankful I am free of that garbage..knowing that out thoughts dont somehow influence reality of their own power is deliverance. 

    Many have shared thru the years how deathly paranoid wierwille was.  He was in constant fear of losing his power and control over others.  Was he also afraid that his secret sins would be found out and on display for others to see?  I think so.

    The cult atmosphere is laced with watchful paranoia:  1) Watch out for devil spirit activity, 2) Watch out that your staffers are not speaking negatives and souring on the cult's headquarter experience, 3) Watch out for internet activity, specifically on the GreaseSpot website, and 4) Watch out that your believing doesn't falter and you're out of fellowship.  In other words, the system is built on fear.

    As the numbers shrink.... the paranoia grows.  More eyes are on the little remnant that's left.  The tighter they grip, the more people want to escape the bondage.

     

     

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