skyrider

2 hours ago, Rocky said:

This thread feels to me like a breakthrough synthesis for understanding Wierwille's intended subculture (cult) and its successors/spinoffs. Is it necessary to identify Wierwille's initial motivation as godly or not? IMO, not. It IS possible, however, to discern by its (and his) fruits. 

I think so too.

Whether or not we can identify wierwille's initial motivation as godly or not.... we certainly experienced its deception and exploitation.  And, now some 38 years after his death, we've witnessed its collapse and downward spiral.  By every measure, twi is a cult.

On 2/17/2023 at 8:51 PM, skyrider said:

When I exited twi in 1998, one of the first things I did was resolve to hold no sign of guilt.  Why should I hold any guilt [unearned] over my own head and heart?  After all, THEY were the deceivers, the hucksters, the opportunists living off my sacrifice to serve twi.  Yet, guilt is one of their many weapons.  With incremental steps, each class gives them, they think, more access to govern our decisions and life.  Remember.....having finished the advanced class, twi sent out a form letter stating to the grad that, now, he/she 'owed his life to the ministry.' 

One is quickly able to put twi's leadership at arms-length from any more encroachment the minute the weapon of guilt is removed!!  With luminous clarity and serenity, one begins to see that twi holds NO POWER over you unless you allow it.  Certainly, untangling this whole mess is a process.... but, for me, the beginning step was removing this guilt-weapon from further attacks on my conscience.....

 

How did I become susceptible, and therefore accessible, to these hucksters in the first place?  That was THE question that I needed to figure out to stop others from gaining entrance into my life.

Somewhere in the past, when my own understanding of present reality clashed with the authoritative assertions of others.... I renounced my rational reasoning and principles.  At the crossroads of the choice between "this is what I know" and "they say" I chose the authority of those whom I deemed to be more spiritual on subjects I did not understand.  Simply put, I chose to submit rather than to understand, to believe their statements as truth rather than to think and deliberate.  My surrender of self began at this juncture in life.

From there, I allowed myself to feel intimidated to their "superior knowledge."  Plunging headlong into their twigs and classes, I was now at the mercy of half-truths and assertions accepted as spiritual faith.  At times, held captive by fear and confusion... my feelings of acceptance became my only guide and my remnant of personal identity.  No longer was I grounded in my authentic-self, but attached to a group identity, a herd mentality.

Yet, year by year I saw red flags that alerted me to authoritarian hypocrisy.  Wierwille violated many of the principles he taught.  And, his demeanor off-stage in confrontations with the way corps were far different that his smooth on-stage homiletics.  Was this man, this mystic, driven by an urge to deceive, to impress, and to cheat the consciousness of others?  Was he really 1) "the teacher, 2) the man of God, 3) our father in the word, and 4) a patriarch and ruler of his tribe?"  With each new heightened title.... my mind answered unequivocally and emphatically, "No, he was not!"

Every petulant dictator is a mystic, and every mystic is a potential, power-hungry dictator.  He craves obedience from his followers, not their agreement.  He desires that they surrender their consciousness to his assertions, his edicts with no reciprocal allegiance to theirs.  He works deceptively to deal with his followers by means of faith and force.... disguising both in the process.  And, in truth.... a dictator finds no satisfaction in their consent if he must earn it by facts and reason.  Wierwille wanted compliance at a whim..... or else, hit the door and be gone with you.

My journey into the unknown started with consent.  I gave submission in hopes of spiritual attainment, but found endless caverns of doubt and questions.  I had lost my way in life, because these fraudsters were selling snake oil.  And, I have come to believe that wierwille was a malignant narcissist who relished the spectacle of suffering, misery, subservience, poverty and fear; these gave him a feeling of triumph, a proof of his own miserable existence.  This sociopath felt superior over others by inflicting emotional, psychological, and financial pain and destruction.  In the end, wierwille epitomized his opening statements in pfal on John 10:10..... except therein, wierwille was the thief who came not but for to steal, and to kill and to destroy whereby he stood in sharp contrast to living life more abundantly in Jesus Christ.

Peace to all.

.

1 hour ago, Rocky said:

The ages you cited in your insanity on steroids thread were indeed filled with pressure (John 16:33) in my life. My only child was born in the early portion of that era. Those pressures exposed weaknesses in my life and motivated me to search and to seek out wisdom well beyond what Wierwille/TWI taught (Proverbs 2:1-5). I'm most thankful for the path that I've been blessed to have before me since my youth. My first "professional" job entailed about three years of long-distance telecommunication in a support function for the USAF. I have no doubt that's why I am as comfortable as I have been over the years posting my thoughts on this forum. And hopefully, my travails in and since TWI have lent insight to some of what I post.

Indeed, to my knowledge (somewhat enhanced by the world wide web), you are correct about GSC's role as the sole point of reference for exposing the darkness we endured from the cult. My thought at the moment is Trancechat and Waydale, though the impact of each was limited, were important stepping stones from which GSC learned. The moderators here have been extremely important in maintaining the movement forward. 

Even now, the incremental nature of increasing knowledge and understanding are apparent to me. On the thread Promised Relief: Broken Promises, earlier today I synthesized some of the development of my understanding of said increase. I also greatly appreciate how your insight, Skyrider, both rings true and enhances my understanding of said experience. God forbid that was your last post, though we have no control over how long we will live.

Good points, Rocky

I always read with interest what you post.  Obviously, you continue to enhance your knowledge by the vast amounts of books that you read.  It continues to be one of your many attributes that sets you apart from many.  Thanks for your inspiring example.

As you made note..... enhanced by the world wide web, and this site in particular, provides us with exponential insight.  Yes, I remember Trancechat as well.  At the time, I was scrambling to pay the bills and learn more computer skills.  My handle was Harvestime......ie, wheat harvest time.  But honestly, I don't think that I posted more than two dozen times on that site.  It was all too new to me.... and as a former Limb guy, twi had no desire or foresight to encourage any use of the computer throughout the 90's.  LOL

Like you and many others, I stand firm on GSC's mission "To tell the other side of the story of twi's deception and sordid past."  It seems clear to me that when a poster like Charity gives her personal account of 30 years "without a church home"....but after spending time on GSC threads, has now found a church where she feels at home is a huge obstacle to overcome.  It speaks volumes for GSC's presence.

Thanks Rocky....for posting your comments from the Promised Relief: Broken Promises thread.  Appreciate it.

5 hours ago, Rocky said:

Well, there WERE a few more, even from the beginning. RD joined w/a few to write the letter spurring the first big exodus. John Lynn, Tom R. and Robert B for example. Neither Robert nor Tom put much, if any, effort into establishing a spinoff ministry. But each of them could and did have entrepreneurial talent and redirected their life efforts AFTER their initial declaration of independence.

Therein may lie a clue or two to answering your questions. To my knowledge, also, neither of those two were caught up in the sex scandals. My impression was and is those two found point 4 above applicable to a significant degree.  Of course JAL did start and operate his own spinoff, misguided as it could have been or likely was.

Yes, there were a few people who gave assistance and/or a different perspective to helping people exit twi.  Sue Pierce comes to mind as well.... but no one, or no group or website, except GreaseSpot Cafe has offered a full-expose' of wierwille's deceptive ways and scandalous lifestyle.  Not even Waydale.... Paul All*n spent a majority of his energies on martindale's sins and shortcomings.  The document section in Waydale put a spotlight on present-day twi, policies and corps teachings back in 1999 that were horrendous.

It seems significant that #4 is more applicable than any of the others.  After all, corps in their mid-30's had a lot of responsibilities staring them in the face and bills to pay.  After giving 15+ years in twi-servitude, there is simply plenty of career choices to weed thru and/or academia decisions to make.  I remember all too well the mountain of stress and turmoil that I encountered at this juncture in life...... Insanity on Steroids.

So, it's fair to say that many, if not most, other corps who exited twi faced these pressures as well.  Helping a friend in need is not a sacrifice, because love and concern are involved.....but if you devote a good portion of your life to "random acquaintances and strangers," it is an act of greater virtue.  How many of these ex-corps had qualities of virtue extending outwardly to their fellow man?  In my opinion, those who've stayed faithful to GSC's mission statement have done an excellent service to others, far greater than any splinter group, by exposing the underbelly of twi for all to see.

If this were my last post..... I remain confident in my decision to join forces with you all.  We've done admirable work here at GSC by turning over the tables of the moneychangers in the religious marketplace of our day.  With righteous indignation.... it has been done.

.

Adding further.... I would be remiss if I didn't add the name of Charlene Edge to the list of those helping to expose twi's trappings.

Her book Undertow is a powerful read of her escape from the Fundamentalism and Cult Control of The Way International.

Thanks Chockfull and Waysider...

I do understand, at least I think I do.... the complexity of confronting these issues while IN the ranks of leadership.  But I'm left questioning why a dozen or so didn't come forward after Waydale and/or GSC was up and running (the years, 2000-2005) to EXPOSE TWI'S TRAPPINGS?

I suppose the answer could be as simple as..... why hash thru the details after someone's been OUT for 15 years or more?

To me, I would think that some of these men would have voiced more compassion and empathy by helping to mitigate the destructive nature of twi.  Ideally, that would have been the right and proper thing to do.  Just like those ex-insiders in Scientology.... Leah Remini and others document a TV-series to expose L. Ron Hubbard, David Miscavige, Dianetics, Sea Org., programs, hidden practices and abuse, etc.  Leah and others brought forth THEIR OWN STORIES AND EXPERIENCES to sound the clarion alarm of danger ahead.  Sure, someone could read an article or go to Wikipedia to source these details.... but there is nothing like first-hand accounts to help shine a spotlight on the abusers and abuse.

In my files, I still have my 1985 clergy listing of like 380 twi-clergy.  Were these men and women so pathetically self-serving that they didn't care to help those caught in the twi-trap?   If so, then how anemic their stature and impact really was.

Okay.... since this thread addresses questions, I thought I'd ask another.

This question has surfaced many times, and it came up in the thread A Series of Purges .... but I still am trying to unearth more understanding.  Why was there such a dearth of ex-leaders NOT WILLING to come forward and EXPOSE TWI'S TRAPPINGS?

Except for Ralph D., Paul Mosqued@ and Alan Lich-t {some what] ...... why so few?

Was it because.....

1. There was money to be made by riding the same rails [doctrine]?
2. Men stayed silent, because they wanted to chum with their buddies and not rock the boat?
3. Many of these men were compromised in sex scandals of their own and kept their heads down?
4. Life moves on quickly.... and most just wanted to press forward, not look back?
5. Many were simply hirelings who didn't really concern themselves with the "flock of the sheep?"
6. A combination of two or more from above?
7. None of the above?

Thanks.

14 hours ago, skyrider said:

 

Exactly right.  The more I questioned twi's doctrine.... the more inaccuracies I found.

Then, my understanding and relationship with Jesus Christ was restored fully and completely.

 

Of course, I was no longer the 20-year old transitioning thru college and life's challenges being pulled in several directions.... and taking the pfal class, to boot.  Fast forward to 1999..... with Waydale/GSC backing, the sparks were flying with all the questions that surfaced.

When I exited twi in 1998, one of the first things I did was resolve to hold no sign of guilt.  Why should I hold any guilt over my own head and heart?  After all, THEY were the deceivers, the hucksters, the opportunists living off my sacrifice to serve twi.  Yet, guilt is one of their many weapons.  With incremental steps, each class gives them, they think, more access to govern our decisions and life.  Remember.....having finished the advanced class, twi sent out a form letter stating to the grad that, now, he/she 'owed his life to the ministry.' 

One is quickly able to put twi's leadership at arms-length from any more encroachment the minute the weapon of guilt is removed!!  With luminous clarity and serenity, one begins to see that twi holds NO POWER over you unless you allow it.  Certainly, untangling this whole mess is a process.... but, for me, the beginning step was removing this guilt-weapon from further attacks on my conscience.  I refused to think otherwise.  Immediately, I began trashing wierwille's [sob-fest] corps letters that claimed "....you're corps, act like it.  Stand with me."  Then, I began dumping my Way Magazines....all of them, except one where I wrote an article on "Spiritual Integrity" [how appropriate, eh?].  Within days, I was going thru my correspondence files and dumping those.  Then, after consultation with my wife.... we agreed that the collateral books were of no use and discarded them.

Six months later, Paul All*n had his run-in with martindale and left twi.  Less than two months later, April 1999... he had Waydale up and running.

Explosions of eye-witness accounts started hitting the internet.  Hundreds of posters came onboard to join the open discussions.  It was easy to discern that there was this pent-up frustration and anger sitting out there just waiting for someone to strike the match.  And, Paul was just the man to do it.  He was computer savvy and devoted nearly 18-hours per day to monitor the site.  His mission was to seek and destroy The Way and Martindale......hence, Waydale. Twi was caught flat-footed and had no idea how to stop this creation that they COULD NOT control.

I would stay up till 2-3am, because there was generally 10-15 people still posting away.  It was so electrifying that I didn't want to sleep.  Questions sought were questions answered.... promptly.  Soon, there was a private messaging and a private chatroom.  Holy Moley.  Who could sleep will all this activity going on?  I couldn't wait to get off work.... to come home and catch up on the threads.

Seemingly, after a few years [4-6].... many posters dropped off after lengthy post counts.  Some came to vent, some to ask questions, some to be wierwille-apologists.... which all made for lively discussions.  And, after Paul and Fern won their out-of-court settlement with twi, the baton was taken up by GreaseSpot Cafe.  I remember the thread where we were given the chance to name the new website.

Lastly, here we are.... nearly 24 years later and going strong.  Reaching out with warnings to the hearts and minds of others.  Twi has no choice but to "monitor this website and keep their eyes on the enemy."  Rosalie, bless her heart, was so computer-illiterate that she had Linder print out copies of our threads and placed on her desk.  And, you can be assured that many of us are on their "blacklist."  I wear it with honor.

All of this.... because we dared to ask questions that they refused to answer and recompense that they would not deliver.

.

2 minutes ago, Rocky said:

It's a journey. I've been on that road for more than 30 years. I like it.

Yes, it's a journey.

And, whether or not one chooses the Christian life or some other form of fulfillment..... at least, it's his/her choice.  Rather than being intimidated and indoctrinated into twi-servitude.... NOW, by questioning all of it, one is able to be free from prejudices and judgments of twi-authoritarianism.  

1 hour ago, Charity said:

I left twi over 30 years ago and have not been comfortable in any church all that time.  My mind kept judging their doctrine no matter how loving and accepting the people were.  When I began to spend time on GSC, beginning with the Absent Christ thread, I began to see how much of twi's doctrine on the holy spirit field, the law of believing and the "word takes the place of the absent Christ" was inaccurate and had crippled my walk with Christ.

Charity.... your post is tremendous but also saddening.  For 30 years, you were alienated from a fulfilling spiritual life, from walking with your lord and savior, because of twi's jaded doctrine.  Others have come forward to testify of the same.  Twi's destructive doctrine compels twi-followers to make wierwille/twi the mediator between God and man.  Twisted.

When the trumpet of the Lord shall sound, and time shall be no more..... lots of folks are going to be in for a rude awakening.  None more than those who'd served twi's self-indulging and idolatrous agenda.

19 minutes ago, Charity said:

I left twi over 30 years ago and have not been comfortable in any church all that time.  My mind kept judging their doctrine no matter how loving and accepting the people were.  When I began to spend time on GSC, beginning with the Absent Christ thread, I began to see how much of twi's doctrine on the holy spirit field, the law of believing and the "word takes the place of the absent Christ" was inaccurate and had crippled my walk with Christ.  It's only been four months and now I've started to fellowship with Christians in a church where I feel at home.  A lot of what I'm seeing there lines up with what I've learned on GSC. 

The important point to realize is that for me, I needed to begin having fellowship with Christ before I could fellowship with others who belong in his body outside of twi.  What helped me to connect with my Lord was posting on GSC so the believers there could show from scripture how it is God's will that we have fellowship with Christ.  Once I understood that and I could open the door to receiving him, he went from being someone I knew about in my head to being someone alive in my life. 

I still read and send posts on GSC so I can continue learning and maybe help others as I've been helped.

Exactly right.  The more I questioned twi's doctrine.... the more inaccuracies I found.

Then, my understanding and relationship with Jesus Christ was restored fully and completely.

Asking questions, free from censorship..... is EMPOWERING.

When the mind is free from twi-censorship.... questions flow freely.  In my opinion, one begins to realize how many more questions he/she has pent up inside the crevices of this "renewed mind."  LOL.  A healthy mind is a questioning mind.

Did wierwille and company really think that we would "stay on the pfal-farm" a lifetime.... repeating its mantra as an invocation to this mythical, pfal-god?  How insane is THAT?  Only a narcissist could ever imagine concluding such a scenario for his followers.  Same goes for all of their "advanced" study classes.  Most all of these classes have been redone or tweaked over the years and "The Way Tree" class was completely discarded.  Thank you Johnnie Townsend for that class... NOT.  As so many posters have said.... such drumbeating of repetition is insanity.

Some question wierwille/twi only to a certain point.... and then stop.  That's NOT empowering, that's not freedom.  They are STILL tethered to certain aspects of twi's conditioning.  It doesn't matter if they exit twi or not.... they are still way-brained by indoctrination.

Asking questions, free from censorship..... is EMPOWERING.  

Try it.  You'll like it.

Oftentimes, we hear when twi-followers finally decide to exit TWI..... they seek out a splinter group.  Seemingly, deep down they must still cling to the twi-mantra that victor paul wierwille was chosen by God to lead them to the "rightly-divided Word" or some equivalent of the same.  Clearly, the "truth of pfal" is sound [they think].... it's just that LCM, Rosalie and Donna screwed it all up.  Pick any one of them as the *fall guy*...... but NOT wierwille.

So, off they go to a splinter group... lulled into another loop around the block.  How long will they stay in this cycle?  Depends.  Does it touch all the right buttons of nostalgia for those "good ole days?"  Do they feel accepted and needed?  Are they again (cough, cough) an intricate part of moving God's Word [pfal] to others?

For some.... do they keep questioning and looking diligently for answers?  Or, do they settle into a "cozy" splinter group that, at first, welcomes them with open arms and doesn't ask for donations [yet]?  If they keep asking the hard questions.... this splinter group, too, will not be filling their need.  But if they settle in and stop questioning the deeper questions like, "Why did twi collapse so quickly?  Why was lcm such an ego-driven maniac.... the one whom wierwille chose to be the 2nd president of twi?  Why did wierwille teach that cancer is a devil spirit and later.... die of cancer?  Why didn't wierwille get healed if he was "God's chosen" who taught solid principles of health and prosperity?  Why did the trustees lie saying 'wierwille died of a broken heart?'  Etc. etc. ??"   When the door to questioning begins.....THEN can one find answers.

GreaseSpot Cafe offers the first, clear vision that twi-followers are caught in a trap.

No other group offers this direct approach.  Even though back in the 80's, Lynn's group, CES/STFI, offered up its list that diverged from twi.... it only went so far.  At no time, did it delve into wierwille's questionable claims and mystique of "the man of God."  And, of course.... Geer offered NOTHING but a posthumous accounting of wierwille's "greatness" and took it to levels of franchising classes.  A legion of other splinters, too, chose to hang onto wierwille's coattails and ride the rails to the bank.  But GSC, the successor of Waydale, offers another way for twi-followers to GET OUT OF THIS TRAP. 

With healthy discussions and vigorous debate....GSC allows participants to engage in open discussions.  No questions are off-limits [except politics].  Neither twi nor its splinter groups allow for open, full-throated discussions in the public arena.  Why the censorship?  What are they protecting?  We saw ALL OF THIS back in 1986 when the trustees prohibited anyone from reading John Schoenheit's research paper on "Adultery."  Many corps leaders were fired and/or shunned for even reading it.  Why was twi so afraid of uncovering the biblical truths regarding adultery?  Any guesses?  LOL

Fast forward to 2023.... and the censorship regarding questions about wierwille remain.

But not here..... not at GSC.

.

By every measure of logic and common sense..... when one breaks down all the components, we see that the corps program was an INDOCTRINATION PROGRAM.  Wierwille/twi needed it to jumpstart and sustain his "movement."  

Once it got thru the thick head of the narcissist wierwille that he COULD NOT be the sole motivator and outreach arm of twi..... he realized that youth leading youth was the golden ticket.  In my opinion, that is why he accepted one and all who had sponsorship money to enter the corps.  Wierwille had no investment in whether each corps person graduated or not.  Like all things wierwille....he used and abused and discarded at will.

.

1 hour ago, OldSkool said:

his followers would say God...thats what I used to think. Now im thinking he followed his own lusts and those lusts were his god.

Okay.... if the answer is "follow God"

THEN, why can't I just "follow God?"  Why was wierwille gifted to keep it simple?  What gave wierwille the right to stand on an elevated pedestal that you nor I were NOT allowed to stand?

If I could just "follow God"...... why did I need to go into the stinking way corps training program?  

1 hour ago, OldSkool said:

It's interesting to consider, they told us in advance what we were getting into with statements like the "greatest leaders are the greatest followers". While it's true that leadership typically function in a chain of command where following the next higher up is needed, however, never never is the greatest leader the greatest follower because all I've seen the greatest followers do is look for direction that's safe and comfortable. True leadership can run against the grain at times not always offer safety and comfort to the egotistical follower.

And….. then the question becomes, “If the greatest leaders are the greatest followers, who did wierwille follow?”

Sure, wierwille listened to radio preachers, broadcast sermons,  E. Stanley Jones and others, and plagiarized plenty of work… BUT WHO DID WIERWILLE FOLLOW?  No chain-of-command-follow-the-leader was a part of wierwille’s past.  He was far too arrogant and narcissistic to be subordinate to another’s daily regiment.  This man was one of the most hypocritical Pharisees when it came to these knee-jerk one-liners.  Sheeessh!

Those who STILL prescribe to this huckster’s “greatness” have serious critical thinking issues in play.

14 hours ago, skyrider said:

…. Rarely, does he start threads, but moves in when he sees an opportunity to elevate wierwille's written works.  Thus, not every thread is derailed into "Mikeville"..... but all of them where he invests heavily in challenging statements and banter to where the train leaves its tracks.

The only way to stop his train is to NOT acknowledge its presence or passing.  Treat Mike's ramblings [trolling] like a ghost train in the night with no destination in sight.

Good job, everyone.

When someone thrives on conflict…. it becomes the fuel that feeds his engine.  Remove the fuel (banter, conflict) and voila… the engine can no longer function.

Soon enough, the provocateur moves on looking to start another conflict.

4 hours ago, Rocky said:

It seems he gets something emotionally from posting at GSC, yet he has not yet articulated what it is that he gets.
 

And I wish those who criticize him, ("crudely" or "scatologically") would engage in some serious introspection. He claims you force him to respond. Well, the way I see it, the incentive is reciprocal.

You want to shut him up?

Don't feed [the troll] his emotional incentives.

Some of you have heard this from me before.

So, it's not just Mike who needs to exercise self-awareness and self-discipline.

You will NOT EVER change his mind. NOT EVER "win" an argument with him. Get honest with yourselves.

Skyrider identified Mike as a provocateur. Are you co-dependent?

Well said, Rocky.

In re-reading these last few pages on this thread.... Mike only digs in deeper when challenged.  He simply makes it his quest to prove his points AGAIN.

As WordWolf pointed out..... Mike posts here at GSC, because he has worn out his welcome everywhere else.  Twi sites and splinter sites do NOT have discussion forums.  They will not allow thought and speech to flow freely, because they know how challenging it is to monitor it.  So, with very little else out there..... Mike is "forced" to come here where he is not banned.

Invariably, there is a self-perpetual emotional incentive for Mike when he posts here.  He's been doing this for 20 years!  Rarely, does he start threads, but moves in when he sees an opportunity to elevate wierwille's written works.  Thus, not every thread is derailed into "Mikeville"..... but all of them where he invests heavily in challenging statements and banter to where the train leaves its tracks.

The only way to stop his train is to NOT acknowledge its presence or passing.  Treat Mike's ramblings [trolling] like a ghost train in the night with no destination in sight.

.

17 minutes ago, chockfull said:

Some of those guys even managed to found multiple spin-off groups all in one lifetime.  Before kicking off.  That snake oil needs multiple streams of revenue.  It’s not gonna sell itself lol 

So.... someone like Charlie Quillen in Illinois is an offshoot of an offshoot of an offshoot.

• Quillen is an offshoot of CFF
• CFF is an offshoot of TWI
• TWI is an offshoot of B.G. Leonard

.

20 hours ago, Rocky said:

Of course, doing so only kicked the can down the road. Without repudiating the entire cult mindset, those leaders who started their own (i.e. Victor Barnard) made it worse for themselves, their own families, and those who fell in with them on the back side of the cult journey.

Several of those offshoot cult guys kicked the can down the road until they themselves kicked the can.  

7 hours ago, skyrider said:

Thanks Mike.... for acknowledging my post.  You "passed the test." 

Steps to take to further discussion.

1. Read one another's post.  Don't read into it.
2. The post says what it means.... and means what it says.
3. Two-way communication opens doors for understanding.
4. No need to be defensive or evasive.  We are simply communicating.
5. Facts and opinions are exchanged with view towards better understanding.
6. As per Will Roger's quote:  "Everyone is ignorant, just on different subjects."
7. Healthy discussion and vibrant debate is in the DNA of the fabric of society.
8. Personal attacks are not welcomed.... but healthy discussion is.
9. There is learning whenever two opposing viewpoints collide.
10. Some of our greatest inventions and theories were garnered by vigorous discussions.

Have a great day, Mike. 

 

~~~~~

2 hours ago, Mike said:

11. Stop long detailed personal attacks, that require tons of homework to read, defend, and show how stupidly inaccurate they are.

12.  Stop projecting that every counterpoint disagreement is a personal attack on you.

13.  Learning how to add substance or counter facts and viewpoints is something learned in High School Debate Clubs.... not something a person should be struggling with in their 60's. 

14.  What is causing you to do "tons of homework" in a discussion forum?  Could it possibly be that you are trying to fit a square peg into a round hole? 

.

Blood sucking pond scum

13 minutes ago, OldSkool said:

My Lord, I was so close to going that route back in 2008. Thank God I didn't because it wouldve been so easy and I had three offshoots wanting me to work for them...egads. 

Me too.  

Back in 1998, I too had 3-4 offshoots that were reaching out to me.  Reluctantly, I decided to go to ONE offshoot meeting and THAT was enough for me.  It turned my stomach to see that this offshoot was just like twi..... opening prayer, sing 2 songs, manifestations, another song, teaching, upcoming announcements, closing prayer.

This "backside of the cult journey" just started to climb uphill to another cult-summit.

No thanks.

.

2 hours ago, Mike said:

Yes, I saw it.  And read into it, and saw you were very far off track, and I'd have to do a lot of reading and writing on topics I'm not that interested in dwelling on. LOTS OF homework that I don't want, and I am tired, so I skimmed the rest.

I did the same thing the second time because I am tired and planned to have more energy and time tomorrow.

WHY?

Is there any thing in there that is important that I devote lots of reading and writing time to?  I have my budget for time here and I don't have to account for it's details.

So what is your important point?

Make it fast to read and fast to answer... relatively. Within reason for this late hour, and me being tired.

Thanks Mike.... for acknowledging my post.  You "passed the test." 

Steps to take to further discussion.

1. Read one another's post.  Don't read into it.
2. The post says what it means.... and means what it says.
3. Two-way communication opens doors for understanding.
4. No need to be defensive or evasive.  We are simply communicating.
5. Facts and opinions are exchanged with view towards better understanding.
6. As per Will Roger's quote:  "Everyone is ignorant, just on different subjects."
7. Healthy discussion and vibrant debate is in the DNA of the fabric of society.
8. Personal attacks are not welcomed.... but healthy discussion is.
9. There is learning whenever two opposing viewpoints collide.
10. Some of our greatest inventions and theories were garnered by vigorous discussions.

Have a great day, Mike.