GrouchoMarxJr

Well, I think it's safe to say that there was no "official" teaching to the 6th corps that made sex ok. I think it's also safe to say that there is no clear cut consensus on the "informal" teaching condoning sex. Different experiences for different folks. Undoubtedly, there was a biblical "interpretation" afoot, whispered behind closed doors by some people to justify what they were doing.

Actually, the sexual abuse that occurred did not happen to everyone but the ones that it did happen to suffered dramatically from it. There were other types of abuse that were more common and inclusive of more people...such as losing control of their every day lives and being robbed of their homes, finances, time and right to make simple decisions that they should have been making. The old "group think mentality" that sucked everyone into a cult was abusive in it's very nature.

I think perhaps Catcup took Goeys remarks wrongly and too personal and then became hostile towards him. I agree that folks should be accurate in what they say, people's reputations are at stake. However, from what I read, Goey was as accurate or more accurate than many posts I've read here. He was speaking on the authority of what he considers a valid source...good enough for me. We are all attempting to unravel some elaborate and ugly truths here and there's bound to be a little tension at times when someone gets too "close to the fire". I'm sure that when cooler heads prevail, an appreciation of people's true intentions can be seen more clearly...Peace!

Just thinking...I like it better you're way...they were all a bunch of lying dogs ;)-->

Actually I have checked out many of Mike's posts. It's hard to believe that there are still people who "bend over" and take mr wierwilles false doctrines right up their old renewed minds. Personally I would rather drink the koolaid.

Socks...actually what you are saying fits right into this thread. It was mr wierwilles doctrine on "all sins are equal" that opened the door for a lot of the abuse that was dished out.

I believe that people's perspective on sin was totally distorted. Adultry was no worse than telling a lie or perhaps driving 59 mph in a 55 zone. Sin was minimilized into a "whoops, oh well" type of attitude. Just say the magic words ..."Fatherforgivemeinthenameofjesuschristamen"...and presto!...everything is cool once again.

Twi's teaching on repentance was a joke. wierwille loved to teach that repentance is what you get before you're born again and forgiveness is what you get after you're born again. That was about it...very simple to understand and also totally wrong. As I understand it now, repentance is a process that leads a person to "godly sorrow" first and then progresses into some real heart felt, teeth gnashing, fist pounding, type of experience that is soul cleansing and genuine. I've heard of people who enter into some kind of "crucible" in their minds and stay there until honest repentance occurs. I believe that true repentance is an intense experience and nothing at all like the drivel that veepee taught.

This all ties in with the arrogant and casual attitude that was rampant in twi. Because sin was so easily desposed of, and so superficially understood, people never developed a healthy and respectful relationship with the Lord...oops, forgot, he was absent anyway. I think most twiers were more concerned with their "leadership" finding out than they were of God finding out. Of course that fits in with veepee (and later lcm) being the head of the body in a practical sense. The whole thing was a joke!

Hey folks...another refugee from the 10th...just checking in.

groucho is a pal of mine...I'll tell him to check it ;)-->

I'm so sorry...thanks for telling us...my heart and prayers are with you.

Dear Research Geek,

Thanks for your thoughts. I understand what you're saying. It's unfortunate that when folks speak in generalities, specific facts that are relevant are often lost. I guess there's a tendency to paint everyone with the same broad brush and that's not fair. I know there were fine people with honor and integrity who were not a part of the corruption of which I speak. I apologize to anyone to whom the "shoe does not fit" that I have offended. In fact it's to the credit of anyone who was able to function in a godly manner within the context of that climate.

After re-reading my own post, I would agree that my words are full of bile. That is by design. It does not necessarilty reflect my emotional state of mind but rather a calculated method in which I choose to communicate. It's not so much for me as for the person who reads it. I believe that it's effective in communicating my point of view. There are posters here who are very polite and convey their ideas in an "easy to be entreated" style...I'm not one of them.

Oldiesman...I seem to detect a connection between "bearing false witness" and the lock box. If they are consenting adults, why do they need to hide it? What happens if you put it in the lock box and then you are asked point blank by someone? Do you lie? Do you simply say "none of your business"? Isn't the lock box...lying by omission? This whole concept of the lock box was promoted by mr wierwille in order to cover his sexual escapades. There's nothing "Christian" about it.

Saying that fornication is not as bad as adultry may be true but what's your point? Shooting my neighbor in the foot is not as bad as shooting him in the head either. I agree that wierwilles idea of all sins being equal is nonsense but it's nothing more than rationalization to try to justify fornication on those grounds...Of course I'm speaking from a "biblical" point of view.

Hmmm...I see a 42 page thread about vics lost teaching but who knows what you folks are talking about at this point...

Anyway...if it's been lost for 17 years, why bring that sucker back now? Let sleepin' dogs lie.

Grizz...good point! There was a great burden lifted from folks as they left and it WAS noticed by others.

Good to see ya again Grizz...Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrr

LittleHawk...you're more than welcome

Al Poole...thank you for one of the most insightful and honest posts I have ever read.

My wow year was in 1976 in Chicago. As it happened to work out, my wow brother and I both had skills in construction. We subcontracted jobs as partners and made a bundle of money. Both my wow sisters worked and pulled their weight but the money that my wow brother and I made put us into a category that seemed to disturb the twi leadership dealing with us. We followed the rules, worked just 20 hours a week but together we were pulling down about $800 a week...EACH!

The problem (according to twi leaders) was that we didn't get these jobs by "prayer and believing". We were actually accused of being supplied work by devil spirits in order to distract us from our mission. Looking back, I think that the local wow coordinators were actually jealous of our success. Everytime the area wows would gather for some "event", they would all be crying about how broke they all were. We would be sitting back smiling.

We actually started slipping money to other wow families to help them out...and got reproved for doing it. We lived in a beautiful 4 bedroom apt near Lincoln park. We had done work for many of the local merchants and instead of taking money...we had tabs at restaraunts and different stores. We were rolling in dough and living the good life. At the end of the year we split up are saved assets. I got the vehicle we had bought for our work, my wow brother had his entire tuition paid for the waycollege of emporia, and we gave my wow sisters a bunch of cash.

During the course of the year we were never held up as an example of success but rather we were swept under the carpet. Several times during the year we were threatened with being removed from the field if we didn't get our "priorities" straight. Of course we shut the mouths of our critics when we ran more classes than any other wow family in the state.

I guess they were upset at our financial success because we were not in the same position of desperation that most wow families were in. We didn't need to "pull together and rely on God", We were not at the mercy of some corps leader who would condescendingly bless us with his marvelous words of wisdom that would lead us out of the wilderness of dispair. In other words, we didn't need the "blue book" in order to pay our bills...that seemed to disturb a lot of people. Oh well, the way I look at it...they were getting a free sales force to push their money making piffle class. They should be happy that THEY didn't have to pay me to push that crap.

I knew my little statement about the 6th corps "teaching" on sex would get some responses. I never meant to imply that it was formally taught as doctrine. I was not in the 6th corps, I was in the 10th. During my 13 years in twi there always seemed to be this reoccuring theme that would pop up, no matter what part of the country I was in, in situations, where invariably, someone would refer to the "fact" that the 6th corps was taught that sexual promiscuity is ok if you "can handle it" spiritualy. I don't know where this originated from but in my twi experience, I heard it often enough to become curious about this "alleged secret teaching to only the highly initiated ones". That was usually the disclaimer that was attached to this "mythical doctrine" when people spoke of it in hushed tones. Am I the only one who recalls this?

Thanks to everyone for the amazingly insightful posts on this subject. Thanks to you too, Oldiesman...After reading your thoughts on this subject, I have a greater appreciation of my own diversity and open-mindedness. I'm flattered that you would take the time to disect my post and respond to each phrase with your calculated observations. I'm sure that it's a reassuring thing to be surrounded by people who agree with you and help you to "shore up" the foundations of your renewed mind. Even as some fish swim the open seas, others are content with the safety of their aquariums.

mj412...that's exactly what I'm talking about. Real friends don't cut and run just because you won't take a class or go to church with them. True friends stick.

For a long time, there were a lot of folks who acted like my good friends until I disagreed with them. The next day, I was a lepor not to be associated with. That's the only time in my life I was ever treated that way. I am fortunate today to have many real friends. Our friendships are not conditional on what church you go to or what you believe. How refreshing it is to live in a world that is not clouded by insincerity.

When I started this thread I was honestly curious about what everyone thought about their corps experience. I didn't expect the same answers from everyone and I sure didn't get the same answers, and that's a good thing.

I have no argument with those who found it a valuble experience. I enjoy the debate from both points of view, but honestly, there's no need for anyone to feel defensive about their position. I suspect that you're all really fine people.

About the food...all I said was that my rations were cut in half. It WAS healthier food than what I was used to and the reduced portions were healthier for me too. Between the food and the running, I was in fabulous shape. I went into the corps weighing 190 and came out at 155. Today I am about 180...too many cheeseburgers and beer.

The truth of the matter is that I could have gotten the same results following Jack LaLaine instead of veepee wierwille...and saved a lot of money in the process.

I keep hearing about all the great friendships and even marriages that came about as a result of being in the corps. That's really swell but doesn't really have anything to do with the corps training itself. If you met your spouse or good friend while serving time in prison, perhaps you could expound on the value of your prison experience as well.

Sorry folks, I just can't get away from the fact that twi leaders lied to us in God's name about some pretty important stuff. To me that overshadows any incidental nicities that I may have picked up while being in residence. It's sorta like the question posed to Mrs Lincoln after her husband was assassinated at Ford theatre. "Besides the other thing that happened, Mrs Lincoln, how did you like the play?"

Remember hearing "just shake the dust off your feet"? What this really meant was he's not gonna take the class, we won't be getting his money, therefore we have no more time to waste on him.

The care and concern we had for people was always being "tempered" by twi leadership. True unconditional love was not allowed. There were always strings attached. When a corps leader would be reassigned to another area, all the "friendship, intimate conversations, and concern for that individual in his previous area would disapear faster than a porkchop in a dog kennel, once he was reassigned. It was all phoney and it was all contrived.

The worse part is that we were all taught to treat people this way. Some of us did more than others. How many times did you see a twig coordinator really ream somebody in his twig out because the previous night he himself got reamed out by a leader that was higher up on the food chain? Now it was his turn. How many cute way girls went "witnessing" in a bar, ended up flirting her way into some guys life and then manipulating him to take the class?

We were all taught how to put on our "believer face" just to show people how spiritual we were and how loving we were...sorry it was just an act. As soon as we realized that you were not gonna take our class or believe the same things we believed, we cut you loose and never thought of you

Afterall, we needed to get that class together by the end of the month so that we ourselves would gain favor from the mighty ones in charge. It was all about looking good and making them money. A lot of the techniques were subtle but they were all meant to use people.

Sexual promiscuity was not limited to just top way leadership. I had guys in my twig that were constantly trying to get some way girl into the sack. There were huge arguments about this issue as some of these guys would constantly quote the famous doctrine taught to the 6th corps that it was ok as long as you could "handle it". Well all these guys thought that they could "handle it" just fine.

The methods of recruitment and of keeping the "faithful" in line were both manipulative and abusive. We were taught these methods and they became institutionalized . We used bible verses deceptively to get people to do what we wanted them to do. We lied to people and we used them. All so that we could appear to be a "growing" ministry ( which really meant more money).

In the process of cult recovery, I think it's important to recognize the fact that we were not only victims, but that many of us were also victimizers. I did my share of manipulating people and I admit it. At the time I thought that I was doing the right thing but in the end, I found out differently.

That's why, when I left twi, I went out of my way, seeking all the people that I had a part in recruiting and talked to each one of them. Thankfully, every person that I ever got to take the class has now left twi and I feel better about that.

Both wierwille and martindale were master manipulators and screwed up a lot of people's lives. I'm thankful that I finally recognized the truth and was able to disassociate myself from both being a victim and from being part of a system that caused me to victimize others. It's a two edged sword. The twier who was victimized by some leader quite probably victimized someone else below them in the tree.

As reprobate as both wierwille and martindale were, thousands of folks weren't taken advantage of by just two guys. It was a corrupt sytem and we all played a part in it.

Let's face it, conservative Christian doctrine relating to homosexuality simply doesn't "line up" with life's experiences or reality.

I too was taught the hateful, frothing at the mouth, mean spirited, self righteous, homophobic doctrines of condemnation. About the demons that left one's mind void of judgement. I recall the tone in wierwille's voice as he called them the "lowest of the low".

Sorry, it just doesn't float. I know plenty of scum bag heterosexuals who have no business being around children, let alone raising them. I also know plenty of gays that are kind, responsible, caring, loving, honest people who I'm sure would do a wonderful job at raising kids.

Of course it works both ways. The point being is that there are good and bad heteros and there are good and bad homos. Sexual orientation should not really be a factor, anymore than the color of one's hair or what country your grandparents immigrated from.

Unless of course we should simply eliminate the part in the constitution that seperates "church and state". Personally, I don't feel that "denominational doctrines" should be the criteria for civil law. The operative ideas in formulating civil law should include pluralism and tolerance.

In reality, I am a heterosexual who is repulsed by the notion of two men "being involved". I find that homosexual behavior goes against my own preferences and sensibilities but nevertheless, as an American, I must insist on equal rights and equal protection for all citizens.

A little boy touches a hot stove and burns his hand. Did he get anything "good" out of the experience? Of course he did. He learned not to touch a hot stove again, which is a valuble learning lesson.

In that sense, I did learn something from my corps experience. Thanks to the corruption and deception of so-called twi leaders, I now have a fully functionable bull.... meter.

Perhaps having mud fights and sitting around a campfire, singing Kumbiya validates the experience for some of you, but for me, it falls short. When I consider that we were dealing with very important life issues, I cannot easily overlook the fact that these people were lying in God's name.

Not to change the subject but I just wanted to throw in my two cents about Deadwood.

Love it! I can understand how some folks would find the language offensive but it doesn't bother me a lick. I was wondering the same thing myself about how authentic the use of those particular cuss words were during that time. I was amazed at the frequency of the useage of "co** su***r". Seems like they were going out of their way to use that one.

Hickock is great as well as the others but the portrayal of the villian (can't think of his name) who owns the bar...scheesh! This guy is as nasty as they come. Just looking into his eyes makes your skin crawl.

For some reason I thought his degree was in physical ed. I know that he was a second rate football player who ended up getting a lot of splinters on the bench. From what I've heard, he was a huge disapointment as an athlete.

So, if martindale was such a wizard at getting revelation, how come he didn't know that his "ministry" was about to hit the wall harder than Mr. Magoo playing Hai alai?

It's interesting to see how many folks responded to this thread and the strong opinions that have been expressed. It tells me that evoking the "waycorps experience" still hits a nerve for a lot of people.

Catcup made some good points on how they failed to deliver on the corps objectives and also on the "bait and switch" tactics that twi frequently used. I recall signing up for a 4 year training program only to be told later that it was a lifetime comittment! Quite a difference I would say...and you were made to feel "unspiritual" if you questioned it.

Twi made a big deal out of this "natural leadership" quality in people when looking for corps recruits. I often wonder how many folks with incredible faith, love, patience, etc. and a willing heart to serve were discouraged from entering the corps because they didn't meet some leader's criteria for "natural leadership ability"...which often times was nothing more than being popular because of an extroverted personality and a penchant for kissing the right a$$es?

Let's face it, the majority of the people in the corps LOVED that green nametag and all the prestige that went with it. Whether by design or by accident, the corps produced a lotta big-mouthed, arrogant, bullies that enjoyed their special status in "gawds household".

When considering the corps training in the context of understanding twi as a cult, It's easy for me to conclude that the whole experience was worse than a waste of my time. I believe the bad far outweighed the good. Can an evil tree bear good fruit?

Actually, as I consider various "affiliations" that I have had over the years, I can honestly say that my time in a college fraternity (Tau Omicron Pi) was of more value to me than my corps experience. At least with the frat they had plenty of cold beer.

Actually it was Harvey Barth a distant cousin but he assured veepee (over several glasses of drambuie) that the snow on the gas pumps...whoops, that was another story wasn't it.

I know that I am not the only one who see's the correlation between martindales "eve is a lesbian" doctrine and his wifes involvement with Rosalie.

How do I do this?

...And as far as jet style packing, it came in handy when I got the hell out of that place. ;)-->