Twinky

His example served as an example of MRS WEIRWILLE staying together no matter what. Maybe she took her vows seriously ("till death us do part...") and doubtless in the 50s, 60s, 70s, it would have been harder and more socially disastrous for her to divorce him, than the other way about. Mrs W's role as enabler/ victim/ abusee/ whatever, has been debated here a few times. We'll never know. What we do know is that VPW's behaviour is totally out of order and has NO scriptural support whatsoever, but rather, much condemnation. Any of these ex Corps leaders who played around and had any sexual contact with any woman not his own wife was, and is, completely unsuitable for leadership.

Can someone explain to me how VPW managed to get Doop and Heefner to fall under his thrall? If these were such thriving ministries in their own right, why did they affiliate with him? Why both of them (since as I understand it, they were separate ministries anyway). What, did VPW lure one or both into "taking the class" and then demanding fealty forever after - not just of them, but of all their own following? Why didn't these other men stay affiliated in some way without getting badly enmeshed with TWI?

IMO stop referring to the "founding president" of TWI. At that time he was the only president. Not sure if it would be accurate to call the first and only, the "founding" prez, as if the corporation had existed longtime. Did he refer to himself as "founding prez"? Or just as "prez"? It would be accurate to call someone (anyone) the "founding" pres when there'd been at least one other pres. Let's call him the "floundering prez" or the "fondling prez" or if you prefer (and this is accurate like a hand in a vagina glove) the "fukking prez."

How did Wierwille gain control over his followers? That's easy. He taught some genuine (though plagiarised) Bible, taught some good, useful, interesting, stuff. And he was able to get away with it because either the victims were badly taught in churches they'd attended; or they'd not attended church before, didn't know much about God or the Bible; and in both cases this new course or class showed them something new. If you'd never heard stuff taught like this before, and been shown Bible verses to back up what was being said, this was something new. If you're hungry, you'll eat anything. And then, you were undoubtedly surrounded by a bunch of really happy, enthusiastic young people who genuinely appeared to love God, believe God, and had passion in their lives. Who doesn't want to be around enthusiastic and happy people? So if this is the only place you've heard what seems to be genuine Bible teaching, where you haven't heard things like this before, where you've become disillusioned with the church(es) you've been to previously where you hate stuff that isn't doctrinal, or where practices don't line up with what you perceive of God - why wouldn't you stick around? Many people here, and others that I've known, have said that they were delivered from the idolatry of Catholicism. But they might (or might not) have ventured into a protestant church of some ilk, and not found that much better. But here - here, was something that seemed to have depth. For myself, even though I was aware of discrepancies, things that just didn't quite fit together in PFAL, well, I still hadn't heard as much Bible taught as this (initially). I gave the Leecher, sorry, the Teacher, the benefit of the doubt - we all make mistakes, especially when speaking more or less extempore (haha).

@Mike Shyster lawyers in the USA. Lots of them exposed themselves in recent months. Some, however, showed their honesty. Happily, the lawyers I've known are generally honest and genuinely do their best for their clients. Please don't be insulting. I have not insulted you, or (so far as I'm aware) anyone else here. It's not my nature. "Spectrum excuse"? Maybe an explanation (not excuse) for your adamancy in face of much opposing information. Look, Mike, I like the way you stick to your guns and won't be swayed. In some ways, it's an admirable quality. It's clear that you really stick to the things you are passionate about. I just wish your "guns" were a bit better, and not water pistols.

It was you who changed the topic, Mike. If you stayed on topic, you wouldn't drag everyone off into jumping on you. You have no idea what people are doing, but rest assured, offering "God's Word" PFAL style probably isn't it. However, there are people here who are offering God's Word in many other ways. "Under-shepherding" and other Way jargon doesn't cut it either. We are to help each other and guide each other in the way of Truth, and that means helping and guiding from the newest Christian to the apparently most mature. Not one of us is perfect, so we all need a little help and guidance at times.

I am revolted by Kirsten's description, T-Bone. Sickening. Just. Sickening. When I first moved to this city, I had a now-deceased friend who was a Wayfer. He was a much older man, showed great kindness, and was very helpful to me in my confused post-Way state. (Just talking friendship, brotherly love; nothing sexual.) I even stayed with him briefly after a few months, before I completed the purchase of my own house. But he was soooo set in his PFAL belief, and that VPW was such a great MoG. He was very hard to talk to about some things, didn't believe a word I said about the corruption within the "ministry," and berated me for "speaking evil." So did other Wayfers round about in this area. Conversation with friend became more about what we avoided, than what we talked about. If you only saw RoA, if everybody there was nicey-nice to you (especially if you were an International), if you didn't see behind the curtain - you always had this idea of how wonderful TWI and all its people were. You never saw inside the whited sepulchre. You never saw or smelled the decay within. In the OT, people were "unclean" for a specified period if they'd touched a human dead body. There was good reason for that. And there's very good reason to be "unclean," if people have touched the dead body of TWI. Especially if they keep "touching" it by rehashing its glory days in their memories.

Yep, 2022 - but for both of us now, I think. Happy new year to you, too.

I referred to this subject elsewhere, so thought I'd bump it up. It's a great thread with some really good advice. Here's a link to something I found more recently. Celebrate Recovery's 12 Steps This is a link to the book that I referenced in the opening post: Breathing Under Water: Spirituality and the Twelve Steps: Amazon.co.uk: Rohr, Richard: 8580001051727: Books

Just to bring this back on track, here's the starter post:

Yet another thread that has become all about Mike. For those who don't know, Mike is on the autistic spectrum. Nowadays, sometimes called "neuro-divergent." (I think there may be some other posters here who are also neuro-divergent.) That means Mike doesn't think like "neuro-typicals" and no amount of presenting alternative facts will dislodge his current views. What you say will only entrench his own views even more. No amount of logic or browbeating will cause him to backtrack on his beliefs. So stop wasting your time trying! Being autistic isn't a "bad" thing, or an insult. It's how people were formed in the womb. High-end autistics are said to have Asperger's syndrome, and there are many famous "Aspies." These include Elon Musk, and Bill Gates, for two. Others excel as musicians, architects, artists, etc, with great focus, and an attention to detail that can lead to ground-breaking advances. Where they excel in ability and focus is, unfortunately for neurotypicals, also where they lack in interpersonal skills and empathy.

I also meant to add, consider also some wider reading, though my response was specifically aimed at the suggestion of re-studying those PFAL books. Go to the source there; remove the corruptions inserted by a corrupt plagiariser. Good post, T-Bone, about three ways of distinguishing fundamentalism. There is a lot of positive inspiration to be gained by looking at one's troubled past in the right way, and I do think Mike recognises that. We can, if we look, see what a mess we were, and how knowing God has rescued us from that. And we can so very definitely use our own troubled pasts to empathise with those who are still living their "troubled pasts," and to show them there is a way out. Perhaps we don't want to look at those who offended us (though there is learning there: why did they offend us? What was so offensive? Why was it offensive? Am I doing any of those same things, and thus offending others?) and there is a huge amount to be gained by looking at those whom oneself offended (why did I do that? Was it conscious or unconscious on my part? How can I avoid offending others - and thereby perhaps driving them away irreparably - and show empathy towards them?) Anybody that's interested could consider looking at the "12 Steps" that Alcoholics Anon uses to help alcoholics make sense of their lives. There's a Christian version of this and several books on the subject. We had a teaching series in church over several weeks, based on this. It was excellent. Anyway, here's a quick link for anyone who's interested. Celebrate Recovery's 12 Steps

I think if I were that interested, I'd try to source my review reading from the original books. Those that were plagiarised and repackaged as "PFAL" and "RHST." The precursors of VPW's poor copies. Original (source) material would include JE Stiles - The Gift of the Holy Spirit EW Bullinger - The Companion Bible - for a lot of materials and comments, even "expanded usages." Where's PFAL from? I can no longer remember what was plagiarised for that. As to the "collaterals" (which is not what Mike includes), they're mostly pinched from other available sources. Have a look at this, from John Juedes: www.empirenet.com/~messiah7/tw_documents.htm

God bless and prosper this young woman. She's turned a despairing situation into a really positive, empathetic way to live her life, helping others from the depth of her own experience of abuse.

I thought this might strike a chord for some people here, especially if they were born into, or raised in, TWI. It's 6 minutes long. From Being Trafficked as a Toddler to Claiming Victory and Joy in Life | CBN.com

Thank God, my year escaped that indignity. But I (now) know I'd disclosed too much previously, done in complete trust, and which I now know could be, and possibly was, used to manipulate me.

Some good news. I have been carefully nurturing Tuxedo and loving her up lots. I have found something she will "eat" and that helps. She likes Felix "Soups for Cats" - only 50g packets of mostly jelly with a few strips/fillets of meat (?) within. Comes in various fish, or meat, flavours. She loves that jelly!!! but leaves all the meatier bits. I also give her "cat milk," which is soya-based, no lactose, and is fortified with various minerals and taurine and other feline needs. She's ravenously hungry most of the time, but only takes liquid stuff, no solids. Today we visited the vet again. She is now 3kg, has put a little weight on. The vet had a feel around her middle and says that the hard inflamed bit now seems reduced and less firm (this is good). She's had another jab of something that should soothe her inflamed digestive tract, for a longer period this time. I got her home and she ate two packets of the Soup and some of the fillets. I have some B12 vitamin powder which she is to have - 1 capsule alternate days, or 1/2 capsule every day, for a week. She is now yelling at me for more food. I'm so pleased by this (an answer to prayer), and hope that she will continue to put some weight on and be able to live quite some time yet. I don't think we will get her up to her previous 4-4.5kg, but I am hopeful after today's visit and jab that she will continue to eat more and may take some solids, or at least the pate type foods. Now to give her some more Soup, and then we will have a cuddle on the couch for a couple of hours. The downside to this (I don't exactly see it as such) is that her littermate Crypto wonders why Tuxy is getting all this lush soft food and keeps trying to muscle in and nosh it herself. When Tuxy's made it clear she doesn't want the fillets, I let Crypto have them. She is not a very tactile cat, won't be picked up, but likes me to fondle her by her walking under my dangling hand. I wonder sometimes what she knows or understands about Tuxy not being well. Can she smell something's not right?

You're right, was admitted to the Roll of Solicitors in 1984 after many years study. I also re-qualified in another country, where I am Called to the Bar and enrolled on the Bar List (= I'm a barrister and a solicitor there). I've done some work in most of the major areas of law. I also worked at HQ in a quasi-legal capacity in relation to some matters following Chris Geer's meltdown.

Take a look at this. You'll see time in the US is ... well, a tiny paragraph, mentioning no place by name. 60 Years of Ministry — Peter Wade, Bible teacher All on peterwade.com. Here's some of his books: Amazon.com: Peter John Wade: Books, Biography, Blog, Audiobooks, Kindle Here's a YouTube link: Peter Wade - YouTube Here's something else: Getting To Know Peter Wade [PeterWade.com Newsletter #362] (campaign-archive.com) Not that this thread is about Peter Wade. You'll see from the items referenced above that he has a long church background, from way before he ever got involved in TWI. VPW would want him alongside to give credibility to VPW himself. No doubt he got fed up with VPW's braggadocio and began to get uncomfortable with what he was hearing taught.

Woke my computer up this morning to find it had more than its usual grumps. It's decided to offer me Windows 11. Quicker for games! More, new, games! (yeah, but I don't play games on mine). I don't see any advantage to me for Win11 but wondered what others thought (if they've tried it). All I could do with is a quicker, less jerky, use of Facebook, which causes lots of slow and jerky scrolling. And the New Tab thing can be slow to kick into action. Thoughts, anyone?

Interesting! Where do you think those "attitudes" came from? Who was in charge when you were working at HQ? (Hint: initials are VPW.)

I'd say EI (what you call EQ) is a part of wisdom, part of the empathy and understanding that are required to be wise. In fact, it's probably essential.

LOL, I might find out more about being wise on 24 Dec, when I play a "wise man" in the church's nativity story.

I wouldn't say it's a trait, which implies something innate. It seems to me that wisdom is the accumulated wealth of understanding, experience, learning, study, observation, depth and breadth of living. As such, it's available to anyone who cares to pay attention to what's going on around them, and taking other people's PoV into account. To be sure, some people seem to have a head start on this, being innately more compassionate or empathetic - but some of that, too, is learned at an early stage from parents and other significant elders.

Interesting. Not to be confused with competence. One can be competent in many areas, yet naive or even foolhardy in others. Can one also be wise in many aspects of life, yet naive or foolhardy in others?