Twinky

32 minutes ago, Raf said:

But we are getting farther from the thread topic, which is ok IF enough time has passed AND the person who started the thread is ok with its evolution.

It was a serious question.  To which I sought a serious answer.

This thread has now declined into frivolity and swiping at each other.  Ho hum.  I wish there was a way to sever off the nutty stuff so that just the relevant info is left.

22 hours ago, Rocky said:

btw, I read books I buy from Amazon using the Kindle app for PC... most of the time.

I want a real book.  Not very interested in more screen time.

Much as I'd like to read Undertow, it's only available in the UK with extortionate postage costs, presumably from USA.  I don't know how much those claimed costs relate to actual postage costs.

Popped into my newsfeed today.  Posted by his wife Laine.  I didn't know or know of this man, but some of you might have encountered him, so that's why I'm posting this.

Laine writes:
I wanted to let my fellow Corps members know that Don Walter (8th Corps) passed away in early September.

Popped into my newsfeed today.  Posted by his wife Laine.  I didn't know or know of this man, but some of you might have encountered him, so that's why I'm posting this.

Laine writes:
I wanted to let my fellow Corps members know that Don Walter (8th Corps) passed away in early September.

5 hours ago, Raf said:

Almost thou persuadest me to engage in argument. 

Almosdt - but you don't have permission to do so! 

Posted by Christian Family Fellowship - popped into my FB feed today, don't know why.  I can't find an obituary notice at present.

It is with great sadness that we share that our dear friend and pastor, Wayne Clapp, is sleeping with Jesus, awaiting His return. At the families' request, we will have a celebration of life service at a later date.

Sad to learn this.  I liked Wayne and thought he had some integrity.  (For those of you who have other views, please don't comment here).

Thanks, rrobs, I'll take a look at this lengthy document.  

I had thought that this man's ministry was connected distantly with TWI but if it once was, it's now moved a long way from original TWI-type beliefs.  Author appears to be a "pastor" in his own non-aligned church, in Rhode Island, but no credentials offered.  However, we do know to our detriment that credentials too can be deliberately misleading.

8 hours ago, Stayed Too Long said:

I am sure there are some who do it to be seen, but for the most part, they love their religion. 

Re-reading what I wrote, not sure that I was clear enough that I don't mean everybody who attends church regularly is under "churchianity."  Certainly not what I meant.  I do know that service in many capacities is deeply meaningful to some attendees, whether doing the flowers, or cleaning and tidying the building, or whatever it is.  There are very many people who do these things as an outward expression of their inner faith and a desire to help others.  I include myself in that category.

Good for your mum, STL, if she can lovingly serve Christ in that way.

Isn't "churchianity" about who gets the glory?  And what the giver of the glory gets?

Some people spend practically their entire Sunday in church, attending every service.  Why?  Do they really need five services every Sunday?  Or is it to feel good?  Or be seen to be there?  Maybe those people also give out the hymn books or collect up something afterwards or put the chairs away.  Some people like to be chalice assistant, or to read the lesson from the Bible.  Why?  What's their motivation?  To be seen doing it?  Or because there's a need that they can fulfil, in part or whole?

What do these people do on other days?  Do they help those in need, minister to the poor in some way, visit prisons, help out at hostels, etc etc?  Does their Sunday church time spill into heartfelt actions during the rest of the week?  Does what they learn(?) on Sunday carry through into actions in the days following?

What is it that they like about church, anyway?  Is it the message, the corporate worship, the being with other Christians and sharing their faith together?  Or is it the comforting ritual of the orderliness of a service?  Of the sounds, smells, robes?  Perhaps such are of genuine help to some people in their faith.

Whatever.  I see churchianity as being those people who attend church because it's "what they do," but without it having any impact on their day to day life.  Who obey rules from the church that were never even hinted at in the scriptures.

Corporately, I see churchianity as having rules that don't benefit the congregation.  Ministers have to be dressed a certain way.  Some people can be licensed to perform certain actions - like chalice assistant, or reading from the Bible.  And so on.

Who makes these rules?  And why?  To what purpose?

Rules are good.  But when rules take over, then they are not good.  And thus, churchianity is born.

On 10/8/2023 at 4:10 AM, Ham said:

I've always liked the Dark Side of the Moon.. this is perhaps the darkest..

That was rather good.

In Britain, we nationally have a culty experience with recruitment of young girls for ISIS.  There's a famous group of three 15 year old girls who left school and got to Turkey.  The whereabouts of one is unknown; one is dead; and the other has become infamous.  Shamima Begum was swiftly married to a Dutchman, a convert to Islam; she bore three children, all of whom died very very young.  Her husband is also dead.  She has been trying to return to the UK since she was about 20.  She has been stripped of British citizenship as being too dangerous to allow to return, and is now stateless and stuck in a refugee camp with no prospect of return to the UK. There's a Wikipedia article about her [her alone] and also the attached one about the three friends who ran away.  She has now just turned 24 and, in the last nine years, has lived a life that few could comprehend. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bethnal_Green_trio

I honestly don't know how I feel, think, about this woman.  I can see what she is reported to have said and done.  I wonder how accurate it all is.  Has some been made up or embroidered, as a deterrent to others?  Is she really the violent person she's painted to be?  Is she a person who can be rehabilitated?

She was an impressionable, immature 15 year old who had been groomed into thinking a particular way.  She acted on that thinking and became deeper enmeshed with her cult ( <>she joined their "Way Corps").  Of her own free will, or was she lured, tricked, compelled into that?

Without in any way excusing what she did, I have compassion on the 15 year old child - all three girls in fact - who got groomed, brainwashed, into what they did (who knows really what they were thinking, or what their motivations were?) (and what factors in their home lives came into play?).  I even have compassion for how they became more involved.  Didn't that also happen to most (all?) of us?  We too were groomed into thinking something was good that turned out to be poisonous, dangerous; and some of us got more and more involved, as Penworks did; others of us became part of the WC; yet more others became recruiters (Ambassadors/Way Disciples) etc.   How far might some of us have gone, if pushed far enough?  Many of our boundaries, especially sexually, were warped beyond comprehension.  We weren't pushed into violent acts, but we were introduced to conspiracy theories. 

We now regret those choices made when we were younger and under the influence of the group. 

But despite feeling compassion towards these girls, I wouldn't trust them and others of their ilk for a very, very long time.  We know how long it has taken for us to get TWI out of our heads, to get our thinking straight.  Some indeed still refuse to see.  And most here were somewhat older than these three immature 15 y.o. girls.  I wonder how many years it would take for them to get ISIS out of their heads - if that's what they want?  

Thank you for that honest and brave sharing, Charlene.

In my perusal of CNN this morning;

https://edition.cnn.com/2023/09/15/us/soldiers-of-christ-south-korean-woman-murder/index.html

Horrendous.

HI Alex, welcome to the cafe.  Fewer bunfights these days, but still some good chat.

That's hilarious!!!!!!!!!!!

Here's something to help deal with those splinters.

Save them from themselves, Nathan? 

Definitely out of the frying pan into the fire.

I can see that "strong leadership and a stirring message" would work well in Fiji and a lot of Polynesian locations.  They tend to be very group- or family-oriented, with large extended family connections.  It's very hard for individuals to break out of those connections.  Very tribal; even if they venture out on their own, they are still subject to unwritten rules and expectations of looking after their families, and are expected to send their wages back to their families.  So once the head of a household is hooked in, so the rest must follow.

Possibly how early Christianity took hold.  Gospels, Acts: "He and all his household believed/were baptised/..."

1 hour ago, OldSkool said:

to expect a victim to extend forgiveness when the perpetrators dont ask for it or repent of their jaded actions

And yet.  Jesus is reputed to have said: “Father, forgive them, for they do not know what they are doing.” (Luke 23:34)

This raises a couple of issues. 

(1) Jesus is asking his father to forgive them.  He's not saying he forgives them. 

And yet:

(2)  We know that Jesus and his father are likeminded in all things, plenty of references to that.  Jesus only does what the father wishes.  If Jesus asks his father to forgive, but he himself does not, does that introduce a split personality if God is a trinity and a part of that trinity is saying one thing and another part is saying or thinking something different?  That's a nice rabbit hole for trinitarians.  Does Jesus have independent thought processes that do not line up with the fathr's wishes?

And further: 

(3) This verse in Luke and the sentiments expressed therein appears only in Luke.  No similar reference in Matthew, Mark and John.  Many commentaries simply note: "Some early manuscripts do not have this sentence."

Hmm.  So not much to hang one's hat on, in the forgiveness line.

Have you tried looking on Facebook (try variant spellings of their names), Linked In, and the like? If you try FB, try the names of any friends they might have - they might be FB Friends too - might be a backdoor way of locating who you really do want to contact.

You could also try online phone directories (best if you have an idea where they might be living) and there are paid-for services (but not expensive) that can provide a range of possible and you pay to check the one(s) you're interested in.

Some interesting stuff there.

But I looked at an old WC notes section, a rant from Craig in about 2006, and I just wanted to yell back at him about all the stuff that was WRONG in his haha "teaching" or rant or whatever you call it.  How contradictory in so very many ways.  How overbearingly bullying.  How demanding everything was and how it demeaned EVERY believer.

Seriously unhinged.  

Not surprising I was so f'ked up when the M&A'd me.  Several years of these rants and no ability to say, hey mate, ease up a bit!

The documents that I glanced at on the old site enraged me.  (Possibly even with cult-brain, they'd have pi$$ed me off badly.)  Maybe, sometimes it's good to look back at where we came from, and realise just what prisons we have been released from .

That's Ham for you, STL.  Irrelevant off topic comments.  Can be amusing - at times.

Very happy for you both - no, for you all.  All best for a long and happy future. 

Tremendous that you could rescue her from such uncaring birth parents.

I know you don't espouse Christianity any more but this came to mind in relation to your new little girl: For I know the plans I have for you,” declares the Lord, “plans to prosper you and not to harm you, plans to give you hope and a future.

You are certainly giving her hope and a future. 

What's her name?

Thanks very much for your contributions on this thread, rrobs.  Really helpful.

16 hours ago, rrobs said:

For a couple of years now I've been doing a lot of reading about the culture of the Ancient Near East (ANE), especially as it relates to religion and worldview. In the last 5 decades or so there has been a plethora of their writings uncovered and interpreted. While, as you said, we have to use some imagination, scholars are nonetheless able to paint a fairly accurate picture of how they thought. It has a huge impact on how the scriptures read. The very first verse in the scriptures is a good example of the differences between how they read it and how we read it.

Just as a bit of an aside: It's not just ANE that has a different worldview.  If we consider European medieval worldviews, they were a long way from where we are now, and some of the writings from that time (say from Chaucer to Shakespeare) contain thinking that is hard for us to get our heads around.  

You might even find that your grandparents and great-grandparents' worldview is rather different from your own.  And their use of language, or rather meaning of words, differed.  

For those with ancient indigenous cultures in their lands (Australian aborigines/first peoples, NZ Maori, US native Americans), again there are different cultural worldviews that may be hard to reconcile with "known" facts of today.

It could well be that, should human life still exist in 1,000 years time, they will think that what we now accept as "facts" is quaint, strange, primitive.

While human beings have been "the same "for millennia, human beings' thinking, worldviews, etc haven't been the same.

There was obviously an explosion of interest in the early 1800s in studying the ancient Hebrew worldview in the early 1800s and in attempting to understand both the Bible and the ancient mindset (going by the reference dates you quote).  But it started much earlier, dating back to the Reformation in the 1500s (Luther's time).

Two articles from that found of knowledge, Wikipedia: 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reformation

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christianity_in_the_19th_century

The latter period would give rise to the scholars' work quoted by rrobs.

I recently was asked to read Proverbs to a friend who's ill (I suspect she meant Psalms).  So I read Prov 14 and 15.  I could not help but think of the current political situation in the US - and of so-called strongmen leaders everywhere.

https://biblehub.com/hcsb/proverbs/15.htm

Full of gems, these chapters.