Twinky

6 hours ago, Rocky said:

Why would ANYone think/believe/act as if anything Victor Wierwille said or wrote matters today even as much as when he said or wrote any of it?

There are some eternal truths that would be true, whether said decades ago, or now.  And whether VPW said them, or someone else did.

He himself was the one who said that "every generation needs to make the Word its own," ie, learns to apply Biblical principles in their generation and circumstances.  Hmmm.  Did he mean that (for example) "kindness" changes?

However, I don't trust what he said or wrote.  Wasn't too sure about some things when first heard in PFAL; definitely am not sure now. Everything he said or wrote needs confirmation from some other source(s), sources that are in no way Way related.

5 hours ago, Nathan_Jr said:

victor paul wierwille, cult founder, in 1973, when "teaching" his Corps on Romans, said, if no one sees you disrespecting another's boundaries, it won't influence the example you set for others -- UNLESS you beleeeve it will.

He said that?  Jeepers!  Won't influence others? 

What about the continual undermining of one's own integrity?  What about building a habit of disrespecting others?  You are what you think, and sooner or later what you think will spill over into your actions.

He clearly missed the gems such as 1 Sam 16:7 - for God sees not as man sees, for man looks at the outward appearance, but the LORD looks at the heart.

Deut 27:17: "Cursed be he that removeth his neighbor's landmark. And all the people shall say, Amen."

Somewhere or other in PFAL VPW goes into this meaning, "the landmark of the mind, one's personal boundaries."  Cursed be those who shift one's boundaries.  

I have so often thought of this, because what happens in TWI is that the more one becomes enmeshed, the more one's boundaries and one's moral compass are shifted.  A little bit here, a little nudge there, an unchallenged overstretch elsewhere... It all goes to shifting the boundaries of the mind.  Until finally, there are few boundaries, and such as they are depend almost entirely on dictats of the cult leader.  The insidious nature of this can be hard to spot at first.

It may well be true that some of us had inappropriate boundaries - too strict or too lax - that maybe should have been moved.  Our morals might not have been very healthy.  But any movement should have been to bring us closer into alignment with the scriptures - not to enable us to do whatever we wanted "in the love of God."  NO NO NO a thousand times NO! 

And that doesn't just mean our sexual boundaries, but boundaries relating to honesty, integrity, not stealing, not lying, not hurting each other ("tough love").  Work time.  Family time.  Sleep time.  Recreational time.  Day to day living has boundaries, and if appropriate they need to be respected.  What somebody else chooses might not be your choice, but it's theirs to choose.   And yours to respect.

Tis but short steps between immorality, amorality and becoming completely callous towards others.  Brutal, even.

Just refresh yourselves on 2 Peter 2, which well describes "false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies" (verse 1) and slashes through the "do as you like" ideas that some false teacher even then were propounding.

Some of you might find this item of interest.  Made-up doctrine, in any event.  No better than Pharisees commanding the washing of hands, dishes, and other rituals that have no Biblical basis.

https://owlcation.com/humanities/The-Roman-Catholic-Tradition-of-Eating-Fish-on-Fridays

2 hours ago, Nathan_Jr said:

It's not clear to me TWI settled, only that the case against Michael Anthony Farris-ManettaI was settled.

I don't know US court procedure, but I did see this (my emphasis), dated Tuesday, April 11, 2023

ORDER: The Court has been advised that all claims asserted herein have been settled in principle. ECF No. 92. Accordingly, the above-entitled action is hereby dismissed and discontinued without costs, and without prejudice to the right to reopen the action within thirty days of the date of this Order if the settlement is not consummated. Any application to reopen must be filed within thirty days of this Order; any application to reopen filed thereafter may be denied solely on that basis

Most of the documents are unavailable except to professional personnel. 
However, from the above, which is of public record, it seems to me that TWI is off the hook again.  Paid over plenty of money, no doubt, and got a confidentiality clause put in the settlement as well.  No findings against, and no admissions of liability.

3 hours ago, cman said:

What are you fighting?

Not "what am I [Twinky] fighting?" but "what is Mike fighting?" as it's a quote from something he wrote.

3 hours ago, oldiesman said:

the church's true gift ministries.   When they're in operation.   They are still around today.

Right on there, Oldiesman.  And not confined to any particular church or denomination, either.

STL, I knew there'd be some interesting controversial views!

29 minutes ago, Stayed Too Long said:

What happens when the women are no longer virgins, is not known?

Maybe they remain perpetual virgins?  But some say there are no virgins at all.  Instead, there are white grapes, or raisins.  How very disappointing for those foolish martyrs who expect wives, and get raisins.  https://www.indiatimes.com/news/india/islamic-scholar-punctures-72-virgins-theory-says-martyrs-will-only-get-raisins-in-heaven-340579.html

1 hour ago, chockfull said:

I responded on the other thread

Could you copy your response here, please?  If you can, delete response from the other thread.

1 hour ago, chockfull said:

The greatest secret in Wayworld is that the Bible doesn’t “interpret itself” you have to read it, study it, interpret it yourself, and apply its lessons in life.

We had a great chat in my church housegroup about "integrity" and how it applies in today's life, in today's situations, in real situations current for members of our housegroup.  Integrity and compromise.  Holding the line, without being obnoxious, close-minded, or bigoted.

Perhaps A great secret (not THE greatest secret) is that the Bible is applicable to our day and time, and to just about every culture.  Not necessarily in what it says, but in the broader outline, in "the heart behind" whatever is said.  We may not need to wash the feet of others - but we should be happy to carry out acts of service, especially menial ones, for those in need - and not to exalt ourselves and expect others to serve us.

If anyone choses to debate Mike on his post above, the third in this thread, I posted his post in its entirety in Doctrinal.  Otherwise, I know what this will turn into.  Though, maybe, it could turn into something interesting.

I'm sure we've had this debate a time or two, and he doesn't need to derail this thread, as well.  And he isn't brilliant at starting his own thread.  So there, Mike, I've started it for you, and you can run it from now on.

Now back to the regularly scheduled programme.

Mike said this in response to a recent thread I started:

9 hours ago, Mike said:

The Bible, as the revealed word and will of God, is always DECLINING, moving away from what we were taught with an unchecked evolution of thought, in both individuals and institutions.

I've seen this evolution from time to time, both in myself over the past 5 decades,  and here in some posters in the past 2 decades.  I fight it off the best I can, but find myself fighting it off over and over. 

Here is one example of this evolving road down here at GSC:  the recent belief that the Bible does not interpret itself that has grown up here in some in fairly recent years.

This is a very equivalent to the belief that the Bible is of un-coordinated origins, and lacking authority in lives today.   It's not the work of an accurate God, nor an authoritative God who is powerfully in charge.  It follows that the Bible is not the revealed Word and will of God in this thinking path.

I'm sure we've had thread concerning this, but if anyone wants to debate this with Mike, here it is.

6 hours ago, Mike said:

the BIGGEST QUESTION people had was why is there so much suffering and evil in the world

It's a question that we get asked a lot and is the reason, or perhaps excuse, that people give for not believing in God.  There's an answer, but it's not a quick answer and hard to explain in a few minutes to someone who's quite possible half-drunk and incapable of remembering.

Your answer isn't quite clear.  Are you saying that "God loves YOU" is a close second?  Or that "God is light and light ONLY" is a close second?  The latter is a hard concept to be able to explain, since what is "light" and what is "dark" can be unclear.  Is a prolonged drought, or a plague of locusts good or bad, light or dark?  If you're a farmer, it's very dark.  If you're an invading force, it might be light because it drives inhabitants off the land.

Anyway, the question is not what is light or dark.  It's: 

14 hours ago, Twinky said:

What would you say is the greatest secret in the world today? 

No doubt T-Bone, OldSkool and cman have interesting perspectives on this one.  With Bolshevik having quite a different perspective.

Probably is NOT "the Bible is the revealed word and will of God" as so pronounced by VPW. (And that probably wasn't *his* original thought anyway.) 

Instead, I'd venture to suggest that it's simply "God loves YOU." In my work out on the streets with homeless people and with young pleasure seekers, it is truly astonishing how many don't know this. And they may have been going to church for years, decades. 

God loves each and every one of us. May not love what we do, but loves us nonetheless. 

What would you say is the greatest secret in the world today? 

19 minutes ago, Nathan_Jr said:

What was your parents’ response to these low grades in writing?

I wondered that, too. 

And welcome, Logicisgreatstuff.  Sounds like you're a second generation TWI kid.  Tell us a bit about yourself and your time both in and out of TWI in the Open>New Members spot.

1 hour ago, Logicisgreatstuff said:

But instead of my education hindering progress in TWI, it was the other way round. I, an all-A’s student, started receiving C’s (and lower) in my wring class. I failed assignments! Unbelievable. 

 

We really need a "ha ha" icon here, not just an arrow or a heart.

Completely sympathise with you, Logic, in your confused writing sessions.  Living in the real world and also in TWI-world is great for learning to develop a split personality.

Oh my.  We appear to be in a slightly cynical morning today.  Maybe due to lack of sleep from a sore shoulder.

I must exercise my free will, to be cheerful, and try not to pi$$ off my clients today.

Of course, you're assuming that "free will" is a good thing.  (Aren't you?)

Is it?

We have some amount of free will within parameters.  Those parameters are important.  Perhaps you should be exploring the parameters.  Which are partly cultural norms, partly because of our genetic makeup, partly inbuilt fight-or-flight and other autonomic responses, partly - well, who knows what.  Perhaps you are exploring the parameters.  But you can't escape them.

And does it matter?  To whom?  And why?

When I did my research paper, the first draft was, IMHO, pretty good.  It contained no Wayspeak because it covered areas that TWI rarely ventured into.  Stylistically, my paragraphs had a bit of an opening sentence, Bible verse (usually from the OT), and a light sort of exposition.  I was using the verses, however, as building blocks to my conclusion, not in a show-off way but to present my case.

First draft got sent back.  I hadn't included enough references to PFAL materials.  (That's because there wasn't anything relevant in PFAL, dummy!)

Second draft, well, finished version: I had had to rewrite to include various references to PFAL material that wasn't really relevant and added nothing.  This version was well received, surprisingly widely read among the head honchos, got quite a few compliments from unexpected sources.

I found a copy of my (haha) research paper a few months ago.  I read it.  It is, actually, good stuff.  Huh, the additional bits that I had to stick in - stick out like sore thumbs. Made me wince.  But: finished version matched their "style guide" and so was deemed acceptable.

Looking at it again, I'd do it a little differently now, not the research work (which was so entirely my own work) but the way it was put together.  And it could well be much longer because it was a fascinating subject.  Certainly, there wouldn't be any Way jargon or turn of phrase.

Oh, what was it, you ask?  "Judicial Answers of Truth in the Ministry of Jesus Christ."  [I remembered the title as being a little different, but I'm looking at the document itself.)  Good ole Craig himself gave me that topic. 

Every answer, every OT quote, that Jesus gave was checked back in its OT context, reading back and forth over all related chapters, and then reading other related areas, Bible books, etc.  Started as a word study of the word Apokrinomai [remember those word studies?] and exploded out from there.  So you can see: mostly OT stuff - and a good look at the gospels.  So you can see why there was so little quotable material in PFAL.  After all, it wasn't necessary to study the Man himself, nor his lifestyle, his application of scriptures to living in his everyday world, his understanding, exposition and demonstration of the scriptures/ Torah/ Pentateuch/ temple teaching available to him.  We're so very smart now that the gospels are irrelevant, so don't need to be covered in PFAL, just given a passing glance from time to time. The reality of "It is Written" applies to PFAL materials only.

Rant over!

Oh, and yeah.  As a retired lawyer, I was used to considering carefully, looking at lots of relevant material, and producing an opinion, letter, document that noted all salient points and led to a clear conclusion.  I knew how to write: for a court, for a lay client, for other professionals. And formally, for my dissertation - my degree.  Not to mention, informally just for pleasure.  But writing Way-style....errggggghhhhhh.  Children's stories are better written.

Interesting old thread this.  I was going to include an extract from their digital WayRag but it's not set up well and is in any event so difficult to read.

At random I chose an article, and found a paragraph. 

So: they say what they want to say, reasonably intelligibly.  Then say it again.  Then a Biblical quotation.  Then, take an English word (an ordinary, nothing-special type of word, from that Bible quote,  and say "this is the Greek word xxxx" and expound what they claim is the meaning, both then and now. Then virtually re-write the opening sentence of the paragraph.  Write four pages like this. Hey presto!  End of article. 

Whatever they said, it could have been said more clearly in half a page.  Not four pages.

Doncha mean, the backroom boys (and girls) who make the pastries, and fetch the coffee, and wash the cups?  I guess, those who fetch the coffee and other tasties, too.

Thanks, everyone (even if a few bits of crockery get broken in the process). 

Well done, then, those who transferred to new server.  

So what has become of a thread in Doctrinal I started only today," No-one comes to the Father except through me"?  There were several replies, but the entire thread has vanished.  

There are other threads upon which I know there are new entries made today, and they have vanished too.

Please can you restore these.  I certainly can't repost everything that I wrote, as I have no other copies.

Paypal worked for me - though not the Donate button under the first post on this page.

1 hour ago, chockfull said:

In direct contrast we have Twinky showing normal Christianity with working together as one body of Christ all sufficient in the Lord with no sales quotas or money mandates.  

 

Thanks, Chockfull.

I thought for interest you might like to see what these churches support:

Bath Abbey:  https://www.bathabbey.org/donate/mission-partners/  The first four are working locally for international benefit; the fifth (Genesis) is a local charity.

Holy Trinity/StACC: https://www.htcd.church/international-mission  These are the international missions.  There are other local (UK) missions that are supported, Genesis again being one.  

Genesis Trust (hyperlink) is local and small, and deals with the "dreggiest" homeless, addicted, abandoned people and tries to raise them in confidence and skill level and to reintegrate them into "normal" society.  It works in partnership with other local charities to address their wider problems - housing, addiction, ill health, etc.  Genesis is funded entirely by donations, mostly from the city's churches: its clientele is so chaotic in lifestyle that it can't produce the "measurable" outcomes that local authorities and other grant-giving organisations demand.

The congregations get reports from time to time about the work carried on in these missions.  So you see, both the churches as donors and the missions hold themselves accountable to the congregations that have given money.  Oh, and by the way: neither the abbey nor StACC/HTCD ever require the congregation to give under pain of excommunication or any other sanction.  Finances are talked about occasionally, especially when needed for a project; and we see the annual accounts of the churches, and the treasurers are always willing to answer questions. 
They're also accountable upwards to the diocese and higher church authorities.

I think that's all exactly as it should be in properly run churches.  

I cannot see TWI ever getting involved in anything like this. What a culture shock that would be!
Nor, for that matter, some of the US mega-churches where the "ministers" have huge churches and cult followings.  

It's time for TWI people and for those in mega-churches to "come on home" to the wider Christian community, and to properly play their humble part in building up the Body of Christ.  Not build the body of any cult.