Twinky

16 hours ago, Rocky said:

Once upon a time there was a tavern...

An the WoWs weren't in it because they had no dosh to spend, and anyway they were on a 2 drink limit.

T-Bone, you could have a fantastic job putting together humorous greetings cards for Hallmark.

@T-Bone View from the other side of the fence: that pastor went home and said to his wife: "I met a very disturbed young man today, possibly possessed of many devil spirits.  Please pray with me for him.  Something is not right."

And as you see, his prayers, though not effective immediately, have come to pass and been answered.

From an outsider's PoV, I find American Evangelism frankly embarrassing.  Or worse. 

Evangelical?  They are NOT promoting any Christian message, not one that Christ, or God, would recognise.   Evangelising for the Devil, maybe.  Their actions belie their words.  They may be "sincere," but their basis is a "challenging counterfeit," if anything.  Many are deceived.  I wonder if they read their bibles for themselves, or only read selected passages, and those through SBU tinted glasses.

Haven't had time to listen to the second video yet.  One for the To Do list.

On 2/6/2023 at 7:58 PM, Charity said:

Usually when I think of being strong, I interpreted it as physical strength.  However, Paul is connecting all of them together -  strength, power, spirit, inner being and Christ dwelling in our hearts.  Since each of them have to do with the mind (i.e., our cerebrum), it all comes back to the "renewed mind."

Don't think that the Bible references physical strength much at all except in specific cases, much as it doesn't give physical descriptions of people.

God wants us to be strong in heart.  In love for him, and for his people - for all people.  [Thou shalt love the lord thy God; and thy neighbour as thyself.]  Inner strength and resilience will outlast physical strength, where the mind is weak.

Anyone who's escaped TWI and is making a healthy, independent, life for themselves is resilient!

Okay, I'm late to the party, but just wanted to say that the Poker face video was hilarious. ( I wasn't going to watch any of them until I read later comments.)  I did wonder if the three kids matching the actions were going to do a real spoof, especially when the male started waving an arm around towards the end - was he going to turn it into a slow "strip," Chippendale-style?  (Hey, just renew your mind, anything, even stripping, done in the love of God... etc etc).

From "The Full Monty" (available on YouTube if you haven't seen this hilarious comedy about living in poverty):

 Oh wow.  Look at that.  Average house price slightly less than twice the average income.  Dnno how that average income was estimated, but nowadays you might more be looking at not x2 but x20.

That was one of LCM's fave phrases at one time.  Made me wince then, and makes me wince now.  Can't imagine how he thought it would fit with:

Amplified Bible
Now we who are strong [in our convictions and faith] ought to [patiently] put up with the weaknesses of those who are not strong, and not just please ourselves

and 

Christian Standard Bible
Now we who are strong have an obligation to bear the weaknesses of those without strength, and not to please ourselves.

New American Standard Bible
Now we who are strong ought to bear the weaknesses of those without strength, and not just please ourselves.   2Each of us is to please his neighbor for his good, to his edification. 3For even Christ did not please Himself...

(or choose your own version of Rom 15:1)

Hey, did Christ get it wrong?  By bearing the weaknesses of human beings?  Was Christ's strength brought down by human weakness? 

Are we not supposed to:

Amplified Bible
Carry one another’s burdens and in this way you will fulfill the requirements of the law of Christ [that is, the law of Christian love].

And going forward: Haven't we overcome the weakness of our human abilities (not necessarily our human physical strength):

New International Version
You, dear children, are from God and have overcome them, because the one who is in you is greater than the one who is in the world.

Mea culpa.  Apologies to Sky and OldSkool, but yes, I meant WELL DONE, OLDSKOOL. 

Absolutely, Sky, "forgetting" is a big part of why some fall into addiction - drugs, alcohol, whatever dulls the pain of what it is they want to forget.  Often it's abusive childhoods, whether physical (beaten by dad, say) or mental (constantly put down by mum, say).  Your sister abused you by plying you with alcohol at 10yo.  Awful.  Funny for her, potentially fatal for you at that young age.

Great that you've come through it to be the fine man you are now. You have a lot that you can use to help others.

It takes much guts for anyone to admit dependency and then to face up to whatever got an individual to be dependant in the first place.  And then to come through that is serious success.  

Absolutely, Sky, and that's where churches can play a big role.  Bigger churches = bigger role.

My little church has got a growing Youth group of once-disaffected kids, who started coming around when we opened and being generally unruly.  These kids (boys) were in the 9-12 age group usually.  Parents having a lie-in on Sunday morning, kids up and about, and nothing for them to do except roam around in groups doing whatever youths find to do - making mischief usually.  Not bad kids, just bored and pushing boundaries.

Youth minister took them out the back and played football with them.  Showed them he cared.  Gradually got to teach them that just as football has rules, so does life.  Play by the rules and all goes much better. 

Today, those kids are responsible young men who anyone would be pleased to be around.  That early intervention has doubtless saved the boys from trouble with police, and an uncertain future.

If that's what a little church can do - how much more can a big church do?  If it cares, and isn't so big that the vulnerable can get lost?

12 hours ago, skyrider said:

This whole area of the homeless, the addicts, the abused and the poverty-stricken is a growing problem.  Here in the U.S., drugs are pouring across the border by the drug cartels and human-traffickers who load up these "mules" to carry marijuana, fentanyl, etc. into this country.  It seems that with current laws, we are in a losing battle.  What I'm getting at.... the problem is worsening.  If your country is anything like what's happening here, then you and your group are going to be overwhelmed by a problem that keeps growing in leaps and bounds.

Having 5-10 mansions to "house" this wave of addicted, abused and homeless will not begin to put a dent in the growing problem.  This needs to be tackled at its source with laws and regulations that stem the tide.  

Drugs are a problem everywhere.  And yes, I know that a few mansions won't solve the problem point I'm making is that the megachurch pastors shouldn't be haing huge mansions all to themselves.  That's just extreme greed.

Question to solve is: why do people want to start taking drugs in the first place?  Whether that drug be something illicit, or  something legal but to excess, or alcohol, or whatever.  There's a root cause, which is often abuse, poor family background, lack of self-esteem, and suchlike.  Generally, not exclusively, rooted in unsatisfactory personal relationships.  And that may be something to do with the pursuit of money above the pursuit of good family interactions. 

In this, churches of all kinds can help.  Use their platform to teach about proper family values; respect for individuals within a family, how to be supportive to one another in a family or a community; looking out for each other in a genuine way; and suchlike.  No doubt megachurches do run some kinds of family values courses (free? or at a cost?), but the fact remains that there is a great imbalance between what happens at the top (the famous pastor and his family, and their mansions, jets and cars) and what happens at the bottom.  I wonder if a genuinely homeless person would be welcome in such a megachurch worship space. 

Did VPW think he understood the Bible better than the writers?

Probably VPW thought he understood the Bible better than God, who made the means for the papyrus or paper, the ink and the quill or whatever, with which the Bible was written.

But whatever VPW thought is irrelevant to understanding the Bible, so just forget about him.

Quote function doesn't seem to work properly, Rocky. For whatever reason, it doesn't "end" and seems to tuck the poster's fresh words into the quote box itself.

2 hours ago, johniam said:

Raising money is not a sin, in and of itself.  Billy Graham was a minister of the gospel of Jesus Christ, yet he made money by furthering communism, which is contrary to the gospel of Jesus Christ.

Johniam - oh, Billy Graham did?  Others say differently:

Until his dying day, he believed that communism was a malevolent attempt to usurp the sovereignty of God on earth.

But he changed in how he thought Christians should behave towards Communists—the people, not the ideology—and in how he thought the gospel should be presented to regimes that officially rejected Christianity.  

https://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2018/billy-graham/how-billy-graham-killed-communism-kindness-iron-curtain.html

And so say other articles.  Do check your facts.

Oh, and it would be useful if you found out how to use the Quote function, or at least set out your posts in a better manner.

3 minutes ago, johniam said:

he had scathing things to say about Billy Graham, who made money off the publication of the "living bible".

And VPW didn't make money of whatever he himself flogged in the bookstore?  Of "his" many publications?  Off PFAL books themselves, as well as the PFAL class?  

And didn't Craig continue that same means of raising money?

23 hours ago, OldSkool said:

the odds of Jesus having been a fairskinned European guy with brownish flowing hair are probably slim to none.

Don't forget the piercing blue eyes!  LOL.  

It's always been interesting to me that there are no physical descriptions in the Bible - not of Jesus, and precious few of other people.  This one was tall, that one had a gammy leg, another was fat.  In addition, one might be blind, or deaf, etc.  Always a purpose, when a physical attribute is described. 

Perhaps that's a lesson to us, to look beyond physical appearance.  Yet we are so often swayed by appearance, rather than actions.

If Jesus were presented as a man in a kippah/skullcap, or with a keffiyeh (Arab style male head dress) - or a fez or a turban or, in our time, a motorcycle helmet - would we accept the message?  Or would prejudice get in the way?

Going off track a bit.  This is supposed to be in Humor.

Oops, Jesus is going to get a fine for not wearing a helmet!!!

That's true, Sky, though in context, the megachurches are pretty much US based.  (Other countries/cultures have their own local "mega" variants.)

Since these megachurches thrive on "donations" and "tithes" I wonder where the recipients "tithe"?  Or do they see everything as supporting them in their "work" and "ministries," and the purchase of jets and fancy cars as furthering their ministries?  (I see no report of Jesus trading up to buy a faster, stronger, donkey - or indeed any donkey!)  Some of them claim to have no salary.  Yeah, right.  Just paid in kind in mansions, planes, cars, holidays. 

A mansion is only worthwhile (from the church PoV) if it's used for ministry purposes - how many homeless families could be housed in some of these mansions?  Could the mansions be used for work such as helping addicts through recovery?  Refuge for those suffering domestic abuse?  Homes for widows and orphans? 

Do you see any of that happening?

6 hours ago, Nathan_Jr said:

But it does appear to have taken a turn into a cave

There are caves in Toledo? Or wherever LCM now lives? LOL.

Actually, doesn't he live under a rock somewhere, rather than in a Rock?

I think T-Bone's post (p.41 of Why PFAL Sucks) is relevant here:

Quote

On page 1170 of Theological Dictionary of the New Testament: Abridged in One Volume, Geoffrey Bromiley says of orthotomounta occurs in the Greek Bible only at Proverbs 3:6  ,  Proverbs 11:5 where it means make paths straight, to build a road, to lay down a way, and of course in II Timothy 2:15 . Bromiley says the real meaning seems to be that Timothy should speak the word of truth in his conduct – he will present the word legitimately – confirming it in his life.

The motifs of a journey, a path and of walking are quite common in the Bible and usually refer to the big picture of life  – how we handle the mundane, careers, personal life, relationships…how we navigate through life…do we use a moral compass?

On 1/31/2023 at 12:24 PM, waysider said:

After one of those grueling 5AM to midnight days, the only thing on your mind was the chance of getting another 5 hrs. sleep.

And then, when you collapse from exhaustion or have a fit of the weepies, you get hauled in by the corps coord and asked if you're spiritually up to it, or are you too weak to hack God's work.  

On 1/31/2023 at 6:24 AM, T-Bone said:

Unless you’ve been through the way corps program – you have no idea of what utter despair, hopelessness and fear of expulsion can do to your psyche – even willing to compromise convictions and give up any freedoms in order to stay in good graces with top leadership and enjoy the comfort of the elite social system of the way corps.  

Ain't that the truth!

Most of you here were under VPW's control.

I suffered under LCM.  Now that really was hell.  Walking on eggshells all the time and never sure when his outrage would burst out (mind you, he learned some of that from the master manipulator himself).  I was wrecked when they kicked me out.  Am still not "whole" now, just doing the best possible with my disjointed self.  

Those poor fools that are still participating in the corps program - who think themselves spiritual elites, and that we who are no longer around are losers, grease spots, spat on by God - can't help but feel a bit sorry for them.  They still have all the despair, hopelessness, fear, and compromise to come.  Hey, here's the Cafe.  We'll catch you if we can  .

There's no end to those willing to abuse - and to be abused.

Very sad that this is so symptomatic of US society that values money more than anything else.  A greed-based society.

True prosperity is having enough and thriving.  Doing well for yourself - which doesn't just mean having enough money, but having enough in all aspects of life: love, friendship, community, self-respect, respect for others. Time to enjoy life.  Opportunity to spend doing things you love with those you love.  And yes, being successful at the work you do.  The word for "prosper" means, basically, "go well, have a good journey."  

Basically, prosperity is having a good life, not just in the financial sense, but just living a comfortable, thriving, enjoyable, uncomplicated, life.  Heck, it's even hard to describe what I want to say, as all the words I'd put are loaded with "prosperity gospel" overtones. 

may prosper
εὐοδοῦσθαι (euodousthai)
Verb - Present Infinitive Middle or Passive
Strong's Greek 2137: From a compound of eu and hodos; to help on the road, i.e. succeed in reaching; figuratively, to succeed in business affairs.

(My emphasis; I see the "figurative" expansion as being a bit of PI unless used in a general sense.)

"Prosperity" is one of those words that's changed its meaning, or rather, the overtones have all but obliterated the proper meaning.  My great grandad would always greet me@ "How're you prospering, wench?" meaning, "How are you doing, girl?"  

New Living Translation
Dear friend, I hope all is well with you and that you are as healthy in body as you are strong in spirit.

I don't know nuffin'.