Twinky

On 3/2/2023 at 2:25 AM, Rocky said:

Makes one wonder these days whether or to what extent ChatGPT will take over the world... or at least internet forums.

You make a good point, Rocky.

In fact, there could be some pretty odd conversations between different Chat programs.  Would they "realise"?

STL, without checking the references/reading the passages in context, I wonder if some of those strictures (rather than commandments) are in the nature of hyperbole, to underline how serious God's view of something is.  (Bit tough on decent men, however, if they did have a physical deformity.  Interesting, though, that a man could be as mad as a hatter and there's no complaint against service by such a man.) 

It could be, however, something that points to no human being really being worthy - except the Lord Jesus himself.  Who indeed is physically perfect?

As to the reference to Lot and his daughters, there was a lot of cultural significance in (1) carrying on the bloodline [of the male] and (2) women having lots of children [to demonstrate the virility of the male?]. 

Depending on the time period, there may, or may not, have been a lot of strictures about women having children outside of wedlock.  Deut 22 has some suggestions, but that's much later than Genesis. 

It appears from the fact that the daughters were prepared to have intercourse with their father, that there weren't the taboos against incest that are prevalent nowadays.

As usual, this thread has veered off topic and is now a discussion about VPW, whereas it was originally about  LCM starting his own offshoot.

In light of the topic heading, maybe people might want to consider LCM in light of the information and descriptors in Joe Navarro's comments, as reported by T-Bone.  IMO, he suffers from many of these traits.  I draw your attention to point 35 in the list below.

On 2/25/2023 at 6:28 PM, T-Bone said:

That is something common in harmful and controlling cult-leaders. They REQUIRE excessive admiration...Consider some excerpts from a Joe Navarro article.

Joe Navarro, a former FBI Counterintelligence Agent and the author of What Every BODY is Saying: An Ex-FBI Agent's Guide to Speed-Reading People wrote an August 2012 Psychology Today article Psychology Today: Dangerous Cult Leaders, Clues to what makes for a pathological cult leader

Navarro said the two questions he gets asked most frequently by students of criminology and psychology are: How do you know when a cult leader is bad, evil, or toxic?  and   when is a cult leader pathological or a danger to others?    Navarro said those are valid questions in view of the historical record of suffering and hurt caused by various cult leaders around the world:

“From my studies of cults and cult leaders during my time in the FBI, I learned early on that there are some things to look for that, at a minimum, say "caution, this individual is dangerous, and in all likelihood will cause harm to others. Having studied at length the life, teachings, and behaviors of Jim Jones (Jonestown Guyana), David Koresh (Branch Davidians), Stewart Traill (The Church of Bible Understanding), Charles Manson, Shoko Asahara (Aum Shinrikyo), Joseph Di Mambro (The Order of the Solar Temple a.k.a. Ordre du Temple Solaire), Marshall Heff Applewhit (Heaven’s Gate), Bhagwan Rajneesh (Rajneesh Movement), and Warren Jeffs (polygamist leader), I can say that what stands out about these individuals is that they were or are all pathologically narcissistic.

They all have or had an overabundant belief that they were special, that they and they alone had the answers to problems, and that they had to be revered. They demanded perfect loyalty from followers, they overvalued themselves and devalued those around them, they were intolerant of criticism, and above all they did not like being questioned or challenged. And yet, in spite of these less than charming traits, they had no trouble attracting those who were willing to overlook these features…

…These personality traits stand out as the first warning to those who would associate with them, but there are many others. Here is a collection of traits of cult leaders that give us hints as to their psychopathology. This list is not all-inclusive nor is it the final word on the subject; it is merely my personal collection based on studies and interviews that I conducted in my previous career.

If you know of a cult leader who has many of these traits there is a high probability that they are hurting those around them emotionally, psychologically, physically, spiritually, or financially. And of course, this does not take into account the hurt that their loved ones will also experience.

Here are the typical traits of the pathological cult leader (from Dangerous Personalities) that you should watch for:

1.    He has a grandiose idea of who he is and what he can achieve.

2.    Is preoccupied with fantasies of unlimited success, power, or brilliance.

3.    Demands blind, unquestioned obedience.

4.    Requires excessive admiration from followers and outsiders.

5.    Has a sense of entitlement—expecting to be treated as special at all times.

6.    Is exploitative of others by asking for their money or that of relatives, putting others at financial risk.

7.    Is arrogant and haughty in his behavior or attitude.

8.    Has an exaggerated sense of power (entitlement) that allows him to bend rules and break laws.

9.    Takes sexual advantage of members of his sect or cult.

10.    Sex is a requirement with adults and sub adults as part of a ritual or rite.

11.    Is hypersensitive to how he is seen or perceived by others.

12.    Publicly devalues others as being inferior, incapable, or not worthy.

13.    Makes members confess their sins or faults, publicly subjecting them to ridicule or humiliation while revealing exploitable weaknesses of the penitent.

14.    Has ignored the needs of others, including: biological, physical, emotional, and financial needs.

15.    Is frequently boastful of accomplishments.

16.    Needs to be the center of attention and does things to distract others to ensure that he or she is being noticed, e.g., by arriving late, using exotic clothing, overdramatic speech, or by making theatrical entrances.

17.    Has insisted on always having the best of anything (house, car, jewelry, clothes) even when others are relegated to lesser facilities, amenities, or clothing.

18.    Doesn’t seem to listen well to needs of others; communication is usually one-way, in the form of dictates.

19.    Haughtiness, grandiosity, and the need to be controlling is part of his personality.

20.    Behaves as though people are objects to be used, manipulated or exploited for personal gain.

21.    When criticized he tends to lash out not just with anger but with rage.

22.    Anyone who criticizes or questions him is called an “enemy.”

23.    Refers to non-members or non-believers as “the enemy.”

24.    Acts imperious at times, not wishing to know what others think or desire.

25.    Believes himself to be omnipotent.

26.    Has “magical” answers or solutions to problems.

27.    Is superficially charming.

28.    Habitually puts down others as inferior; only he is superior.

29.    Has a certain coldness or aloofness about him that makes others worry about who this person really is and or whether they really know him.

30.    Is deeply offended when there are perceived signs of boredom, being ignored or of being slighted.

31.    Treats others with contempt and arrogance.

32.    Is constantly assessing people to determine those who are a threat or those who revere him.

33.    The word “I” dominates his conversations. He is oblivious to how often he references himself.

34.    Hates to be embarrassed or fail publicly; when he does he acts out with rage.

35.    Doesn’t seem to feel guilty for anything he has done wrong nor does he apologize for his actions.

36.    Believes he possesses the answers and solutions to world problems.

37.    Believes himself to be a deity or a chosen representative of a deity.

38.    "Rigid," "unbending," or "insensitive" describes how this person thinks.

39.    Tries to control others in what they do, read, view, or think.

40.    Has isolated members of his sect from contact with family or the outside world.

41.    Monitors and/or restricts contact with family or outsiders.

42.    Works the least but demands the most.

43.    Has stated that he is “destined for greatness” or that he will be “martyred.”

44.    Seems to be highly dependent on tribute and adoration and will often fish for compliments.

45.    Uses enforcers or sycophants to ensure compliance from members or believers.

46.    Sees self as “unstoppable” and perhaps has even said so.

47.    Conceals background or family, which would disclose how plain or ordinary he is.

48.    Doesn’t think there is anything wrong with himself and in fact sees himself as perfection or “blessed.”

49.    Has taken away followers' freedom to leave, to travel, to pursue life and liberty.

50.    Has isolated the group physically (moved to a remote area) so as to not be observed.

this is the list that I use to survey the cult leader for dangerous traits. Of course the only way to know anything for sure is to observe and validate, but these characteristics can go a long way to help with that. And as I have said, there are other things to look for and there may be other lists, but this is the one that I found most useful from studying these groups and talking to former members of cults.

When a cult or organizational leader has a preponderance of these traits then we can anticipate that at some point those who associate with him will likely suffer physically, emotionally, psychologically, or financially. If these traits sound familiar to leaders, groups, sects, or organizations known to you, then expect those who associate with them to live in despair and to suffer, even if they don’t know yet that they will.”

End of excerpts

This popped up in my Facebook feed today. Some of you might be interested in adding to your back copies. Do t ask me info. Don't shoot me either, I'm just the messenger. 

I suspect the email address should be Gmail.com.

God bless you.  I would like to sell my research books as well as other ministry specific items, including Way magazine, catalog, and other books from the ministry. Curious as if this is the place to do it or not. I have personally been off of Facebook for quite a few years and have recently dipped my toe back into the water

If anyone is so inspired to help me to unload research material as well as older ministry stuff, I would be very grateful. Please feel free to email me.  bobbyverdi@gmail

Mt 5:  43You have heard that it was said, ‘Love your neighbor’ and ‘Hate your enemy.’ 44But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you,s 45that you may be sons of your Father in heaven. He causes His sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. 46If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Do not even tax collectors do the same? 47And if you greet only your brothers, what are you doing more than others? Do not even Gentiles do the same?

See, you can get blessings whether you are righteous or unrighteous - whether you do what TWI says, or whether you are a grease spot by midnight.  You get sun and rain just the same.  God's blessings don't depend on us being part of some organisation, or indeed on anything at all apart from God's goodness. 

However: Php4:Whatever you have learned or received or heard from me, or seen in me—put it into practice. And the God of peace will be with you.

If you want God's peace as well as his general blessings, there are things that you need to do.  And: John 16:23In that day you will no longer ask Me anything. Truly, truly, I tell you, whatever you ask the Father in My name, He will give you. 24Until now you have not asked for anything in My name. Ask and you will receive, so that your joy may be complete.

You get blessings because of your confidence and trust in God.  Not because of your confidence and trust in some orgnisation.  Especially a corrupt one.

7 hours ago, skyrider said:

surrounded by cunning leaders

I don't think they were cunning, most of them.  I think they too were brainwashed.  Had learned sychophantic and spying techniques.  Definitely learned "reporting back" and if instructed, harassing or threatenig perceived offenders.

But weren't cunning as such.  

If you haven't already done this, or haven't done it recently, it would be worthwhile checking out EVERY scripture that Jesus quoted and referring back to the OT and reading the whole context surrounding the quote.   Why did he say that thing at that time?  To which people?  What situation is being referenced in the OT, and how does that reflect on the situation that Jesus is addressing?

Certainly the whole context would have been part of the whole reference brought in with just a few words, to the hearers.  Just as the saying "The word of God is the will of God" brings with it to Wayfers a whole raft of connotations, so what Jesus said would bring with it a whole raft of scriptural and rabbinical teachings of the time.  

4 hours ago, T-Bone said:

The intellectual and emotional appeal of wierwille is truly iconic – in fact from 12 years of dedicated involvement I frequently had - what I consider now an unsettling experience - when reading the Bible. I had sat through the class so many times and was so familiar with the class collaterals that it all was like an interpretive filter and PFAL-augmentation popping up in my head when reading the Bible. Like an icon on a computer screen, I’d read a verse and it was like a program launched relevant wierwille-definitions, remarks, concepts, and symbolism. It’s the same as having a portable study bible with extensive notes and commentary in your head. Yikes! Now that’s indoctrination!

Exactly! Even all these years, decades, later, I can't easily the epistles in AV (KJV).  Too much negative background.

The way I overcame this was to read The Message version, which is so simplistic whilst still delivering the same message.  My mind simply could not run in PFAL tramlines.  And then, I read various other versions.  Now, I read one or two particular versions.  My church uses NIV, which I don't particularly like.  

Hi Extremist.   I read here at the Cafe for a few months before I got posting.  I couldn't stop reading!  It was so shocking - and enlightening.

Later, I found The Subtle Power of Spiritual Abuse (recommended above) a real eye-opener.  With each chapter I read, it seemed as though everything in my heart was getting lighter.  Couldn't put it down.  Felt like I was floating on air when I'd finished it because all the burdens laid on by TWI had been taken away.  And it doesn't even mention TWI, just goes on about typical culty behaviour.  As the Good Book says: the truth will set you free.

I'd suggest you read some of the better threads - first few pages are usually the most interesting, then they sometimes get derailed, but may get back on track.  You will find a variety of opinions and views here, some of which will annoy you and some of which you will agree with.  That's fine!  Means you are beginning to think clearly again.  Form your own opinion.

It's very interesting when we see new people here, still a bit Waybrained and parroting the company line, and then we see them starting to put it together for themselves and really engaging with - with themselves, mostly.  Enjoying the right to look outside of the Way tramlines.

You may find it helpful to join a good church that preaches the gospel.  Try not to be too critical in what you think of people and the gospel message presented.  Are the congregation pleasant, welcoming; or aloof and disengaged?  Do they appear to care about each other and socialise before or after the service?  Is the message soothing and uplifting, or condemnatory?  You do not have to share anything about yourself that you are not truly comfortable doing.  Most of us here don't discuss our culty pasts with people we don't know well - or even then. 

Some people have found Divorce self-help groups useful to deal with the trauma of separation from what you've invested your life in.

But having said that, a true and trusted, empathetic, non-judgmental friend or maybe a couple of friends (no more) with whom you can be very honest, may be very helpful in being a sounding board to help you sort yourself out.

Your recovery strategy may to some extent depend on how you left TWI - voluntarily or kicked out, M&A'd or less viciously, and how long you'd been in.

Feel free to post your wackiest thoughts here.  We have all been through the process of re-setting our courses post-TWI.  Some still espouse Christianity, others don't want a shred of it.  We want to help people like you.

It's interesting.  People have received this postcard and it has brought some old posters back to this site, people who haven't been seen in a while.  Perhaps they have been lurking, watching without posting.

Would be good if we could get the database that TWI is using, and send everyone The Other Side (GSC) postcards  . Not going to happen, of course.

You got one too, BecomingMe?!!

Hmph.  Couldn't get the Weirwille family to "stand," so they think they'll have a go with the Martindale family?

Waysider!  Naughty, naughty!

Ouija board, maybe...?

On 1/14/2023 at 6:36 PM, T-Bone said:

The unscrupulous cult-leader who is deluded can only speak to others who are enamored with his greatness. Through indoctrination the unscrupulous cult-leader in effect teaches his or her ‘creation’ in you (the cultic mindset) – which is an alternate standard of how to think and act – and becomes manifested in the senses realm to the degree you become assimilated in the harmful and controlling cult.

Actually, I think that sums things up very nicely, T-Bone.  We here can all see the counterfeit "GP" at work within us (well, all of us except one).

How do they know who to send these postcards to, anyway?  If someone's been kicked out, especially out of the WC, who knows where that person might have departed to - and where those individuals might be now, several if not many, years later.

Please don't tell me that they have a "research department" to research where ex-Wayfers are now living - by trawling through phone records, previous addresses, any recorded next of kin for ex-Wayfers, and contacting current Wayfers in the last known state.  That would be akin to stalking.

Heh heh, all of us here have well "shared our testimony."  I don't think it's the testimony TWI will want shared with potential new recruits.  Or with current members who want to call us back to Wayland.

6 hours ago, Mike said:

It is obvious that none of you put much thought into the Great Principle (GP) as it was being taught to you, when you were new students of PFAL and the Intermediate Class.    You are all just now floundering in new mis-understandings of the GP. I see you groping in the dark on this topic, and it looks like it's the first time.

In all honesty, if the "great principle" causes such blindness in understanding the things of God; if it causes such stubbornness in recognising evil; if it causes one to think that Jesus Christ will return with the orange book in his hand  - well, all I can say is I really don't want it, I don't want any of that.

What works for me is praise and thanksgiving, acknowledging God in all my ways, and respecting (and to the best of my ability obeying) the things expected of me by God.  Then I have peace, and, somehow, gentle knowledge manifests itself and I "just know" the right thing to do or say or understand. 

Seems a lot simpler than tying oneself in knots understanding some "great principle" that nobody can agree on - and that God didn't think important enough to spell out in minute (or any) detail in his Owners Manual.

There's another work party tomorrow (Saturday) with a view to cleaning the inside of this tatty old building.  The idea is to do "warm space" in here, and bring it back into community use.  (However the actual church building next door is fully heated, so why move to this horrible temporary building for Warm Space?)  Anyway, it will be good to get the community back into going to the building for something.

And the work party will be good.  Hopefully some members of the wider community will come and help, not just church members.  Working together will build links, too.

3 hours ago, Mike said:

There is one single key idea that should have run through all of those sessions. Does anyone remember what that was?

Who cares?  Mike's playing games again.

Mike, don't you get it?  Most of us here have moved on - moved way on - in our thinking from the little box in which VPW wanted to imprison us.

Do YOU remember what the one single key idea that should have run through all the Way ministry's teachings ought to have been?

Unlike you - I will give you a clue.  It is to do with the fact that GOD LOVES US unconditionally and would really like it if we would love HIM back.  Love him.  And not some man, or some idol, or some book or some thing.

On 1/11/2023 at 10:40 PM, waysider said:

2. "Even if your acts are sinful and self-focused, the moment you become aware of that and decide to act out of love, faith, humility, generosity, kindness, and a love of God, God transforms your sin into grace." 

Not sure this is true.  Where did VPW get this "claim"? 

It's not "awareness" of fault, but genuine repentance and a change of lifestyle that will "transform into grace."

On 1/12/2023 at 12:01 PM, OldSkool said:

bling guides

Bling (Merriam Webster) The meaning of BLING is flashy jewelry worn especially as an indication of wealth or status; broadly : expensive and ostentatious ...

Pretty much what TWI was: flashy, looking expensive (rare knowledge) and ostentatious (We're the only ones who know this! Pin back your ears!)

OldSkool: you probably meant "blind guides" but "bling" seems to sorta fit...

Against this background, maybe one could say that the alleged 1942 promise was very successful.  This story kept VPW from having to do anything worthwhile, and it gave him potential access to single females.

It in fact was successful.  It's kept a fake ministry going for 80 years, it sucked all of us in, one way or another.

But the content - "I'll teach you the Word like it hasn't been known..." - outright fabrication.

Back to 1942.  Let's see.  World War 2.  

Many theologians, especially in Germany and continental Europe, were being persecuted for their beliefs and for their active resistance to Nazi dictats.  Many other Christians set up various support networks to help escapees from persecution, at risk of, and often at cost of, their own lives.  And many other lives, Jewish and otherwise, were saved.  Some of these rescuers are honoured by Israel as being "righteous among the nations."

Churches, especially in Germany, were corrupted and only allowed to preach an adulterated version of Christianity that supported the Nazi Aryan view.  But many ministers stood up against such requirements and were themselves imprisoned and some murdered, for their stance.  Some we know about, many others we don't know about.

Here are some events and people you may have heard of.  They lived their faith - and taught many others.

Against this background, a nonentity, lazy, cowardly mid-west American man has the idea to have a fake vision and thereafter avoids doing any serious work of his own.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Righteous_Among_the_Nations_by_country - if you read this carefully, you'll see many churches and church leaders listed (esp in the Netherlands section) - there's no telling without checking every name whether their faith sparked their resistance.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dietrich_Bonhoeffer - his works are still widely published and read.  Well respected, and his writings are still influential.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corrie_ten_Boom - her works are still widely published and read

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Betsie_ten_Boom

1942.  Let's see.  What else was going on at that time?

The rest of the world was engaged in violent conflict.  The USA was slow to this party, not joining until December 1941.

In the USA, young men were being rounded up and sent overseas to fight.  The draft was approved September 1940.  By December 1941 America's military had grown to nearly 2.2 million soldiers, sailors, airmen, and marines.  By late 1942 all men aged 18 to 64 were required to register for the draft, though in practice the system concentrated on men under 38.   The draft boards considered factors like the importance of a man's occupation to the war effort, his health, and his family situation. Many men volunteered rather than wait to be drafted. That way, they could choose their branch of service.  

I cannot recall how old VPW would be at that time.  I can foresee that setting up his own church might be seen as a way to escape being drafted.   I don't know if clergymen were drafted, or might volunteer because they could provide succour to fighting men; both happened in other countries.

I can also foresee that, with men being drafted and sent overseas, that would provide a fair number of temporarily unaccompanied nubile females.  Perhaps New Knoxville, being a farming area, might have a number of exemptions, since food production might be an essential industry (though in other countries, women did the farming, because the men were away fighting - or dead).  Nonetheless, there were likely to be more "single" females who might welcome a hug (or more) from a "kindly" (?) minister.

Against this backdrop, finding an excuse not to get drafted might become of prime importance to a lazy, cowardly man.  He might be able glibly to claim that he could provide home succour and comfort, keep up morale, etc.

6 hours ago, OldSkool said:

Not only that part but that J@qui and Martindale had a long standing thing going was also common knowledge.

Right, so J and LCM had a long-standing thing.

WHY would Ed put up with that?  Repeatedly - over a long period, by the sound of it.  Why would any husband put up with that?  Why??

Yet I know that G@ry B@rnes knew his wife J@nuary was seeing LCM.  He'd watch her get ready: she told me this, years later.  She told me he felt powerless to stop her.   And she had changed, to feel that he was contemptible and weak.  How can that wicked man LCM make a man feel so?  How can an organisation make men and women feel so?

(I think I'll just go upstairs and scream quietly into my pillow.  So angry!)

Thank God P@ul Allen wasn't powerless to stop what was happening to his wife, despite both inducements and threats.

3 minutes ago, chockfull said:

... the 3 some in the spare Founders room is OK?  

I don't like to ask.  Don't like to imagine.  Tell me this is imagination, and didn't happen.