oldiesman

P.S. The Jehovah's Witnesses do not celebrate Christmas. Does that mean they automatically are disrespecting, ridiculing and ignoring the birth of Christ?

Rafael, Let me try to put it another way. Since some folks are concluding that the TWI position was to disrespect, ridicule and ignore the cross of Christ, can you show me in any of TWI's writings, anywhere it was taught we as Christians are to ignore, ridicule and disrespect the cross of Christ? Why does ridicule of the wooden/silver/gold cross automatically mean disrespect for the cross Christ bore? That's your surmising, not necessarily the truth. One other point: does the wearing of the cross on one's neck automatically mean that the wearer has respect for the cross Christ bore? If that's true then evil people can't or don't wear crosses...

Yes I remember that and also the one "if Jesus was killed with a machine gun, would you wear a machine gun around your neck?" There's a real debatable question whether TWI should or shouldn't have condemned silver/gold/wooden crosses... But to make the giant leap from that and say the TWI position was to ridicule, ignore the meaning of, and disrespect the cross of Christ, is pure folly. I think its more than that actually, I think these fanciful conclusions are in the category of evil surmisings. Let's just ignore what VP wrote and think the worst.

Yes, TWI ridiculed and disrespected the wooden/silver cross. But that's not what was said from the get go... TWI never ignored or ridiculed or rejected the cross of Christ. Perhaps I am missing something. Are you saying that the original meaning of Kit Sober's words "the cross of Christ" meant she was talking about the wooden/silver cross? If that's true, then one may also believe that a person cannot respect or admire the cross Christ bore without having a symbol around one's neck to prove it...

Rafael, Thanks for acknowledging that VP didn't intend to reject the message of the cross. Not only didn't he reject it, but he spoke of its true meaning over and over again. One may accuse TWI of a lot of things, but saying TWI didn't respect, and ignored, and ridiculed the cross of Christ is just pure nonsense. It's a phony claim. And more so because the accusation came from someone who's been around for years and years. The true message of the cross of Christ was told over and over again in TWI so anyone who's been around for any length of time couldn't miss it. If one wants to say that TWI should have been more tolerant of folks who wear crosses, or shouldn't have taught what Ralph Woodrow taught in "Babylon Mystery Religion", that the cross was really a pagan symbol, that's another matter entirely. I agree on that point. But rejecting the wooden/silver cross doesn't mean rejection of the cross Christ bore. I think that's fairly obvious.

Ex10, Here's my point: Simon of Cyrene and the Cross Christ Bore The Word's Way Victor Paul Wierwille pp. 224-227 Does the above quote sound like the twi position was to ignore, ridicule and reject respect for the cross of Christ?

The following describes the twi position on the cross of Christ: Simon of Cyrene and the Cross

Garth said: Garth, I disagree with you on this point. If a person wants to forgive Dr. VP of his sins, how do you know that it's only because they want "their idol to be free from being held accountable.."? You just finished saying that if you want to forgive, it is ONLY up to you and God. So if a person forgives someone, does it have to be idol worship as the motive? I would make the general observation that I hope you agree with, that folks shouldn't be thought of as "wrong" if they fail to forgive, and similarly, folks shouldn't be thought of as "wrong" if they do decide to forgive. That seems fair...

Happy Birthday Valerie, remembering you from our wow year in Amarillo... You're not really 52 are you? Gee time flies. Love, Oldies

Cathy, no problem at all, thx for the apology but it's really not necessary; I realize these issues can be upsetting... Thx for the support, Oaks... Have a great weekend... Love, Oldies

The questions on this thread are good ones and I'll consider and examine them and how they relate to my thought processes. Thanks...

Rascal, I believe God is Just, and He will enact justice, either in this life or throughout eternity, in His Eternal Kingdom... I thought I was on the same page as other folks on this, but I guess not... Steve, some folks have had good experiences with VPW; I am one of them. I will admit to being a VPW-loyalist as a result of the godly experiences that he was a part of concerning my life. But I don't think my attitude is one of worship. Just how are you defining worship? I'll be happy to get over it if I can define it as something I'm doing that's ungodly.

Raf, I understand where you're coming from and agree with what you're saying. VPW did plagiarize some things, there's really no question about it anymore. But it doesn't bother me. He shouldn't have...but I don't take it personally or hate him for it. I don't feel hate towards VPW. God will have to make it up to Leonard and others who got ripped off financially. On the other hand since Kenyon's stuff was in the Way bookstore, his ministry probably benefitted some financially from TWI folk like us. Stiles book wasn't there, so he lost out. On the other hand, there wasn't all that much there. I don't know how Leonard really felt about it, but if he was really teed off at VP for using his material, he probably should have sued. That's what I would have done if I viewed it as that major an offense. But I think God will make it up to him, at any rate.

Raf, did you happen to check out Kenyon's website and their response about Kenyon being plagiarized. What do you think? And might we possibly apply some of this thinking to Dr. W ? Was Kenyon Plagiarized?

Steve, the only way I can fathom VP not being born again is if the bible itself is false. I'd bet on a stack of bibles and everything I own that VP was born again. I'd bet my own salvation on it. Why? He taught Romans 10:9,10 and John 3:16 for years, convincingly for years, and years, and he spoke in tongues. He wrote books on the redemption powers of Jesus Christ. Back in Session 5 of PFAL... a man simply can't teach that convincingly how to get saved and not be saved himself; what's the point? He teaches for years how to get multitudes saved yet he's not saved himself? That's too far out.

Shaz, no, no, no, no. VP's sinning was not ok as stated already...

Rascal, I'm unwilling to consider that VPW was a child of the devil, because I don't believe that people lose salvation if they sin, even repeatedly. I think the teaching that people can lose salvation because of sin is harmful, and devilish, and not representative of what God did in Christ, therefore it's a lie. IMO, someone who knows all these things and still claims VPW was a child of satan should get challenged on it.

Committing adultery and plagiarism doesn't make a person a child of the devil, as you accused VPW being. Had you not made that false accusation I probably wouldn't have said anything. Do you believe that a persons sins causes them to lose salvation?

I never excused VP of his evil acts, so this is more deception. Even if the girls willingly had sex, it's still at least adultery where VPW was concerned. I've said that repeatedly. That may be true, but if I have a difficult time believing something and ask questions about it, what's wrong with challenging? If posters don't want to be scrutinized, they shouldn't post. But the reverse is also true, and even more so. Anyone who is pro-twi or pro-VPW gets challenged repeatedly.

Raf I'll try to answer these things as best I can because you asked. I don't know if Dot Matrix is all wrong but I do notice deception and hate, definitely, especially where VPW is concerned. She can call me whatever she wants, I really don't care, but let's not distort the record. I've said on more than one occasion that VP did evil works and good works, that he was a compilation of the two. Saying he was doing only evil is distorting the record. Promoting he did evil only distorts his life and this is probably why she thinks he was a child of the devil. This actually may be true. I have an open heart (or try to) when you speak because you have proven to be objective. You point out the good and the bad. I like that. Especially with the PFAL class. I really like that. On the other hand, the "victims" seem to only look at one thing, the evil works of VP. That's the only thing that has any meaning for them, it seems, or at least that's how they come off. So be it, but I don't see that as being objective or representative of history and reality. This is another deception. I don't think I ever called anyone a liar, and if I ever did, I know I apologized later (people pointed out my error and I changed). On the other hand, I don't have to believe every story either, especially coming from people who tend to distort the record, fudge the facts, think VP is a Child of Satan, etc. I think some stories are colored with prejudice and hate against VPW, I know this because I've checked with other non-posting sources who say they were at the same meeting, or may have been privy to that experience, etc., who interpret the same experience as entirely different. But I still keep my mouth shut, generally, until the false accusations are so blatant (vp is a child of the devil) etc. As far as following her whereever she goes, I don't know who she's talking about. More deception. I do defend TWI-1 when I think its appropriate, but have complained about some things too, ABS/TITHING comes to mind. I try to "learn" from what others share but not to the point of discounting or denouncing what good I've experienced. And I've had a lot of negatives to say about TWI-2. Partly true. I think I come off as a Wierwille patriot because I don't forget the good he's done. But I know he's done bad things and have acknowledged those also. I did say that Dot Matrix is being blinded by hatred of VPW, and I do believe that based upon her comments about him being a child of the devil. It is hatred when you think ONLY evil about VPW, which Dot Matrix demonstrates. What about all the good he's done? She's been around long enough to know what good he's done. Oh well, it doesn't matter. Adolph Hitler did some good things too right? yada yada yada... I have no difficulty believing he committed evil works like adultery and plagiarism. However, allegations of drugging and rape I do have my doubts about. (Maybe I would feel different if I actually spoke face to face with the women who allegedly experienced this.) I've pointed out that women could have just said "no" to VP (like Dot Matrix did!) and they wouldn't have been "abused". I've also pointed out that its possible that these women who had sex with VP actually may have wanted to. They wanted to "bless the man of God". Those are their words. I HAVE TO GET TO WORK NOW...MORE LATER....

Imablvr, you were blessed at and by TWI, if you were there. Admit it, people at TWI were part of that process. Unless you were actively involved in the real BG's ministry, your statement (you were blessed by BG's ministry) is a result of another lie, that the blessings we had were there "only because of God and B.G. Leonard." What nonsense! That's a lie, similar to the lie that VPW was a child of the devil, and has a place in hell. These are lies from the Father of Lies, spewed with bold spittle from someone who demonstratively thinks only evil about VPW. Believing these lies causes you to denounce where you were even! IMO, due to the words of Dot Matrix folks should get out their Spiritual Halitosis meter and start using it.

Good Lord. I think if the Devil Himself were writing this, He couldn't put his thoughts any more bold and blatant. I profoundly disagree with these words and do not relate or acknowledge these words or experiences in any way in my time in TWI-1. They are lies, lies from the fiery pit of hell. Railing bold words of evil designed to falsely accuse one of God's children from someone who apparently thinks they are the Searcher of Hearts. WOW, what boldness! It demonstrates how hatred of a person, in this case VPW, blinds and distorts anything and everything VPW ever did. Geeze no wonder why the Wierwille's don't post on here. Goodness gracious.

Raf, I hear what you're saying and think you're making good arguments... Am still working thru this in my head. Thanks as always for your (and others') input.

Raf, in that particular instance, I don't view it as plagiarism. There are enough dissimilarities....a large one for instance in ideas...one statement is promoting the "gifts" of the spirit while the other is promoting "manifestations". Two completely different and distinct meanings. That's not to say VP shouldn't have given much more credit to Leonard; he should have. I keep thinking that maybe this was one reason why VP didn't have Leonard's books in the Way Bookstore, among others, because there were enough dissimilarities that VP viewed as glaring error on Leonard's part. But I still think VP should have communicated more about how he benefitted from Leonard.

Mike said: I think Dr. boosted the sales of Kenyon and Bullinger because all of us had access to those books in the Way bookstore. However, I never saw any of Leonard's books there. So to say Leonard's sales were boosted is incorrect. Further, I never heard VP advocate taking any of Leonard's classes...has anyone? on the other hand, Mike said: I do agree with that statement....