oldiesman

Another spot, I had no difficulty understanding your incident. Thanks for sharing. I think lots of us experienced some of the same things in twi. Generally, my view of my involvement was having free choices. "freely avail", as they say . I was free not to go to twig, or to leave, and did so on some occasions for several months. I made the choice to go back too. I accept full responsibility for my choices. This doesn't mean I always was in full control. For instance, I went WOW twice, and was in the corps for a few months. During those venues, I relinquished my will and wishes to someone else's, in many cases. This was done freely and for a purpose. To grow, to learn. Nothing wrong with that, in my opinion. I accepted it as a challenge and look back on those days as good learning.

Where? When? The incident I spoke about was the one another spot communicated.

You didn't say. Did I say your incidents did?

Actually there isn't. There are lots of opinions, but I read only one actual incident, from another spot, which I agree with but doesn't even seem to involve twi.

Deciderator, PFAL was communicated for folks like you. I believe this is EXACTLY what Dr. Wierwille wanted when he taught the class, that folks could work the word themselves and make it their own. Bravo!

It's ok to communicate an incident without mentioning names. Sorry you don't get that. Actually, your exact point isn't all that clear to me since i am unaware of the facts of the situation. It'd be foolish for me to automatically agree or disagree with your point about these events you speak, without some knowledge of the specific facts. Who is "us"? Here, do you assume that all twi participants were / are spineless?

That is your choice ... just wanted to try to understand your point better.

I got it Deciderator. Thanks for sharing.

Without mentioning names, are you able to explain the details of these events?

Welcome to this place Ephesians.

Yeah, that's what happened. As you are well aware, some verses in twi were taken literally while some others were not. I don't disagree that, since we took the verses about believing literally, some other verses that we didn't take literally should have been. Seems fair to me. But we are talking about "believing" in this thread, not love or adultery. What is your take on Matthew 21:22? Should we take Jesus' words literally in that verse?

I totally disagree. In fact, as I recall the teaching by Dr. Wierwille on Hebrews 11, he emphatically lauded and respected these believers as having believed despite going through all these intense tribulations and still not receiving the promise. As opposed to us, who have received the promise, received Christ, and all that goes with it, and still moan and complain and have sacrificed little compared to these other believers.

I don't have a problem with that. However if some Greasespot posters actually applied "love God and your neighbor" it may be a devastating turn of events for the forums. :D

IF memory serves, they had not received the promise because it was not yet available. As far as being sawn asunder by believing, I need a refresher on that as it escapes me at the moment.

I fully understand what you're saying, but it still doesn't explain how twi's belief in , say, Matt 21:22 and other like scriptures was erroneous. After all, the scriptures do communicate that Jesus did say that. Being the biblical research & teaching group that twi always was, is it any surprise that they would literally believe the scriptures? So therefore as I see it, if you conclude that twi was wrong you also must conclude that Jesus was wrong too. Maybe you do, and that'd be logical I suppose.

But the topic of believing is one of those issues where the scripture interprets itself, right where it is written. You don't need the mind of VPW to explain what this means, it is plainly written and easily understandable all by itself: Matt 21-22 And all things, whatsoever ye shall ask in prayer, believing, ye shall receive. Do you believe the above verse and take it literally? If you do, you are likeminded with twi. If you don't, you are not. Perhaps you can explain what the above verse means if it is not to be taken literally.

The problem is, the integrity of the Word, as Dr. Wierwille taught. Does one really believe the written Word? There is no disputing the fact that the written word teaches that results follow those who believe. So go ahead and blame twi and the offshoots and other groups for believing the scriptures. They'll probably thank you for the compliment.

As I see it, this topic is all about scripture and how much one believes it, not necessary twi. Jesus did say results would follow those who believe. So then if results don't follow, maybe one is not believing? Seems logical to me. I think TWI is getting a bad rap here. It is as plain as day that the scriptures teach believing as a concept to receive results.

WOW, that alone would make me think twice about it. AT 50, I'll probably decline to do it. I know glasses can be a hassle sometimes. But I also wear contacts when I ride the motorcycle. Dailies are great... you just dispose of them at the end of the day. When I wear my contacts, I have to wear glasses for closeups. That's the downside.

Who or what poster do you refer to that has claimed that?

It may not be an accident. :o

Paul and Victor Paul hijack true Christianity, 2000 years apart! I think I'll go smoke a nice tasty cigar and mull it over.

Yes. But if one does this, one needs to separate the teachings from his sins. If you enjoy the Book of Proverbs, you know how to do that. Why? If the doctrine is accepted as truth, why should it be negated because of the sins of the communicator? People do sin.

But it isn't a figure of speech, at least with some posters. From what I've observed, some posters do believe that Dr. Wierwille was as evil as Hitler, a raving monster. Sometimes the hate is so strong, I can feel it through my computer screen.

No rush. May I mention that there are decent alternatives available now that were not in the past, like CFF. No rush.