oldiesman

There were ultimatims too, here's one: VP said "you can stay in the Corps as long as your money holds out" or words to that effect, now do you consider that coercion? maybe it is, but I don't even consider that wrong. It is a statement of fact. It is a warning. "If you don't have the money to pay for this program, you have to leave." Seems perfectly reasonable to me.

I can go along with that. Some twi doctrine was false.

Well, I can speak a little about the Corps because I was there for a little while. Folks have free will in the Corps. But, a corps volunteer voluntarily decides to submit to someone else's orders while in training. The corps volunteer is under training to do what your superior tells you to do. If you didn't agree with that, or couldn't agree with that after signing up, you had the free will to leave. You had the free will to leave fellowships and classes. So this concept is true of all twi activities, with the exceptions I offered above.

Nice to meet you JavaJane. I am oldiesman. I disagree with your blanket premise that "we all see that we were coerced in some way or another to do something we didn't want to do" Well here's at least one person who doesn't see that. I am of the opinion that unless one in twi was: a) a child, b) mentally retarded, or c) narcotized, one really should accept full responsibility for one's own actions and not wrongly blame others for coercion which I believe to be a form of victim entitlement.

Motorcycle riding is picking up ... just wanted to bring this one back to the top. And remember, at an intersection, look... look... Then look again.... Take Longer to Look for Bikes

Oh I see your point now, you believe that every person is born with holy spirit. Sounds like an eastern teaching, that every man has a spark of the divine.

VP taught that the soul is the spirit of man.

Welcome Preacher Please explain what idols they worship, how they opened the door to devil spirits and what specific devil spirits you believe are controlling them, and Please explain which specific teachings you believe are doctrines of devils. Thank you

Didn't have an attorney with me, which was ok because I wasn't fighting them on anything. But if I had it to do over again, I wouldn't have allowed them to come into my home.

6 months? wow, that's even worse than here in NY which takes about 4 months. At one time around 15 years ago, I actually owned around 50 pistols. Sold off most of them since then, but at that time I went a little crazy buying them because a good friend of mine was a gun dealer, and I was able to get the pistols a little over cost, so I began collecting. So one day as I was applying for another supplement for another pistol, it was taking forever. I went to the sheriff's office and they informed me that they are doing an investigation on me, they want to examine whether I have been selling these guns illegally. So I was asked to appear in court, and went into a room with the assistant D.A., Judge, sheriff, court stenographer, law enforcement ready to take me away, the whole shebang. Questions were asked about why I was buying all these guns and I said they were for collecting. To make a long story short, they wanted me to give an account for every pistol I owned, they wanted to see them all. They wanted to come into my home, examine my safe, make sure every gun was there. Otherwise, I was in deep doo doo. Everything checked out, but from then on, I haven't purchased another pistol.

Thank you for resurrecting an old thread of mine. Your continued posts are appreciated. :) Hard to prove that the teaching was all motivated by something that self-serving... Haven't seen any scripture on this; if you find any let me know. I defer to my own common horse sense and believe it is a crime to abort a child that can live outside the womb.

I still find great joy and peace in an occasional listening of the old tapes. There are lots of goodies there. I don't want to go to church; I have other interests. I can't get rid of these and don't want to. To me, this is "holding fast that which is good". Can something I find pleasure in be so bad?

Eat the fish, and spit out the bones?

I think my analogy was correct because Victor Paul Wierwille taught truth. Would you give the painting back? Well I am amazed. After 20 years, I would keep it.

If you had the Mona Lisa hanging in your living room for 20 years loving it there, then you find out that the person you bought it from actually stole it, what would you do?

How is your whole sense of right and wrong twisted? Perhaps we can debate this from a different perspective, although I'd still like to hear what Raffy thinks. Let's say you learned great truths about Christ from Billy Graham on television. You heard, assimilated, received, retained it with conviction, for years. You know and believe its the truth and on these truths you are unmovable. "holding fast the faithful word". Then you find out 20 years later, after Graham's death, that he was an adulterer, and he abused women, and he plagiarized, he was not the man you thought he was after all. Is your whole sense of right and wrong twisted? will you allow Graham's screw ups to effect your faith? Do you throw out that which you have assimilated, received, retained, and loved for years, because Graham wasn't really the man you knew him to be?

Raffy, the link is below, look near the bottom of the page is where our debate started, http://www.greasespotcafe.com/ipb/index.ph...aven&st=220

This is not what I said or asserted. You're great at your own strawmen, Wordwolf. What I'm saying is something like this: Therefore, the idea that someone would say "I'm confident that Wierwille taught truth, and that I truly understand it, but I'm trashing it and starting over because he was the lowest form of whale blubber in the ocean depths" is rather silly, ... Make up your mind, please? This is what Rafs statements lead me to believe, he can't make up his mind. On the one hand he writes "prove all things hold fast that which is good", on the other "throw it all out". Bottom Line: " If you hold it fast, you don't throw it out. " Folks have advocated this, because of his sins and abuses. I am certain of this. Throw it all out, it's tainted, it is poison, the fish is rotten, a little arsenic in the stew, etc... You know what I'm saying Wordwolf, you're an intelligent guy. BTW, please use larger, darker fonts. I can't see.

I'll try to explain this better. Some may think they're entitled to dispose of all they learned in twi just because of the sins of VP, and that God is ok with that. I don't think he would be. The scriptures say "prove all things, hold fast that which is good". If one tests the scriptures VP taught based upon their merit alone, and come to the conclusion they can't believe because the scruptures taught don't make sense to them or they just don't believe it, fine. No problema. By the way, VP wanted us to do precisely this, and asked us many times to do this. On the other hand, if one believes the scriptures VP taught, finds them good, and profitable; one is not entitled to throw it away as trash because of VP sins and abuses. I think that would be victim entitlement. One is a victim of Victor Paul Wierwille therefore you are entitled to keep on playing the victim card, keep on being a victim, and reject everything he taught.... I don't see that in the scripture, especially when one considers we are to "hold fast that which is good". Yes. If you throw it all away based on him being a lousy scumbag alone, do you think that is God's will? I don't. I assert that that is a form of victim entitlement. You were victimized by VP, therefore you have a right to reject the teachings based on that alone. You are letting your emotions rule, which can be dangerous... ... I'm no psychologist, but this makes sense to me.

I am forced to disagree as I don't believe in that kind of victim entitlement.

I concur.

No problem with that. But there were past suggestions to throw out everything VPW taught and start from scratch. here's a quote from Raf last year: Now this recent one: One says throw out everything VP says as untrustworthy, the other says what VP says contains some truth, so "hold it fast" (the truth part). If one separates what was taught from who taught it, one doesn't need or even shouldn't throw all of it out as untrustworthy. So, my question was, "in other words, eat the fish, and spit out the bones"?

What lesson?

In other words, eat the fish, and spit out the bones?

One other thing, I believe being "born again of incorruptible seed", as opposed to corruptible seed which would be human life. Incorruptible means incorruptible. Ya can't kill it.