oldiesman

PFAL should be on the internet free of charge. Each 30 minute segment... streamline video, so anyone may view. Why won't twi do it? Lot's of goodies in there.

Freelady, I'd love to sit through a few sessions again. But I'm in NY and you're in Florida. "Christ in You, the Hope A Glooooray"

But that was what they believed. Others in twi believed differently. In that case it was up to the couple to decide for themselves their own priorities, which means their own free will was completely in play. I remember PLENTY of wonderful folks who never went WOW or Corps, were into twi as much as was possible for them, but also had jobs and careers and family they didn't want to part with, many issues that couldn't be disturbed. These folks counted the cost, and made the decision they couldn't do it. Bear in mind my recollection of twi is between, say, 1972-1991. I left in 1991.

I get what you're saying about shame, but not about usurping someone's free will. There was no usurpation of free will in the Corps or WOW or fellowlaborer. You signed on the dotted line, you accept the program for what it is, you strive to make it, or you couldn't make it and had to get out. The way I see it, part of the commitment one makes to these programs is to "count the cost" and, if it doesn't work out, it doesn't work out. In other words, you assume the risk if it doesn't work out. All of this should have been thought through BEFORE entering, so one is prepared if it doesn't work out. I know that sounds like pie in the sky, but the buck stops with you. So I opine, if one fails, be a man or woman about it, and accept it. It is hard at first, but the buck stops here, with you. Quit blaming others. In the final analysis it didn't work out, you failed, or voluntarily left if it wasn't your cup of tea; and if you see that and learn from the experience and keep faithful, you reaped knowledge and wisdom and were a stronger person because of it. "That which does not kill us, makes us stronger" Nietzsche

I am not in agreement in any way shape or form that I was conned. If you think that, I disagree. However I will add this one stipulation: if Christianity is a hoax, if Christ didn't rise from the dead, if he's not coming back, if there is no eternal life with God and Christ, THEN I was CONNED.

Praise God it's FRIDAY. Have a wonderful weekend, one and all. Until next time. :D

I think you're being unfair.

JavaJane, Without any facts of this particular situation, I would say, that twi didn't have much choice here. But you are well aware of what happened so what would you estimate the correct approach should have been? How could they have done it better, in this case?

Personally, I don't have a problem with them saying that. Again, one put themselves in that situation and if one did not do what was required, one eliminated themselves. Ummm, I can't say that happened in most cases. Perhaps in a case or two; but I believe they knew that the vast majority of folks leaving the Corps could have gone home and continued in the fellowships if they wanted to. To the best of my knowledge, unless one was a real wacko, one was allowed to re-apply as well. I think it is their job to use their best efforts to make the arrangements for one to go home or go out to a destination in a safe manner. I do remember one time, while I was out WOW, they let one of our sisters (who also posts here) go home alone who was suffering from severe mental problems. THAT was wrong!

There were ultimatims too, here's one: VP said "you can stay in the Corps as long as your money holds out" or words to that effect, now do you consider that coercion? maybe it is, but I don't even consider that wrong. It is a statement of fact. It is a warning. "If you don't have the money to pay for this program, you have to leave." Seems perfectly reasonable to me.

I can go along with that. Some twi doctrine was false.

Well, I can speak a little about the Corps because I was there for a little while. Folks have free will in the Corps. But, a corps volunteer voluntarily decides to submit to someone else's orders while in training. The corps volunteer is under training to do what your superior tells you to do. If you didn't agree with that, or couldn't agree with that after signing up, you had the free will to leave. You had the free will to leave fellowships and classes. So this concept is true of all twi activities, with the exceptions I offered above.

Nice to meet you JavaJane. I am oldiesman. I disagree with your blanket premise that "we all see that we were coerced in some way or another to do something we didn't want to do" Well here's at least one person who doesn't see that. I am of the opinion that unless one in twi was: a) a child, b) mentally retarded, or c) narcotized, one really should accept full responsibility for one's own actions and not wrongly blame others for coercion which I believe to be a form of victim entitlement.

Motorcycle riding is picking up ... just wanted to bring this one back to the top. And remember, at an intersection, look... look... Then look again.... Take Longer to Look for Bikes

Oh I see your point now, you believe that every person is born with holy spirit. Sounds like an eastern teaching, that every man has a spark of the divine.

VP taught that the soul is the spirit of man.

Welcome Preacher Please explain what idols they worship, how they opened the door to devil spirits and what specific devil spirits you believe are controlling them, and Please explain which specific teachings you believe are doctrines of devils. Thank you

Didn't have an attorney with me, which was ok because I wasn't fighting them on anything. But if I had it to do over again, I wouldn't have allowed them to come into my home.

6 months? wow, that's even worse than here in NY which takes about 4 months. At one time around 15 years ago, I actually owned around 50 pistols. Sold off most of them since then, but at that time I went a little crazy buying them because a good friend of mine was a gun dealer, and I was able to get the pistols a little over cost, so I began collecting. So one day as I was applying for another supplement for another pistol, it was taking forever. I went to the sheriff's office and they informed me that they are doing an investigation on me, they want to examine whether I have been selling these guns illegally. So I was asked to appear in court, and went into a room with the assistant D.A., Judge, sheriff, court stenographer, law enforcement ready to take me away, the whole shebang. Questions were asked about why I was buying all these guns and I said they were for collecting. To make a long story short, they wanted me to give an account for every pistol I owned, they wanted to see them all. They wanted to come into my home, examine my safe, make sure every gun was there. Otherwise, I was in deep doo doo. Everything checked out, but from then on, I haven't purchased another pistol.

Thank you for resurrecting an old thread of mine. Your continued posts are appreciated. :) Hard to prove that the teaching was all motivated by something that self-serving... Haven't seen any scripture on this; if you find any let me know. I defer to my own common horse sense and believe it is a crime to abort a child that can live outside the womb.

I still find great joy and peace in an occasional listening of the old tapes. There are lots of goodies there. I don't want to go to church; I have other interests. I can't get rid of these and don't want to. To me, this is "holding fast that which is good". Can something I find pleasure in be so bad?

Eat the fish, and spit out the bones?

I think my analogy was correct because Victor Paul Wierwille taught truth. Would you give the painting back? Well I am amazed. After 20 years, I would keep it.

If you had the Mona Lisa hanging in your living room for 20 years loving it there, then you find out that the person you bought it from actually stole it, what would you do?

How is your whole sense of right and wrong twisted? Perhaps we can debate this from a different perspective, although I'd still like to hear what Raffy thinks. Let's say you learned great truths about Christ from Billy Graham on television. You heard, assimilated, received, retained it with conviction, for years. You know and believe its the truth and on these truths you are unmovable. "holding fast the faithful word". Then you find out 20 years later, after Graham's death, that he was an adulterer, and he abused women, and he plagiarized, he was not the man you thought he was after all. Is your whole sense of right and wrong twisted? will you allow Graham's screw ups to effect your faith? Do you throw out that which you have assimilated, received, retained, and loved for years, because Graham wasn't really the man you knew him to be?