Allan

What happened ?...the same thing thats going to happen very shortly...His- story sure has a way of repeating itself at times huh :)

Ironic, I just get a very stern message from Modcat warning me of no more POLITICAL POSTS on this forum...log on and HELLO...politics politics politics...

well at least this might LIVEN up the place hahahahahmmnnn

As to the original posters question of whether Murica should adopt 'multi party' elections....Please Don't...it has been the bane of democracy here in Australia and New Zealand...Imagine a 'crooked' party doing backroom deals with an equally crooked party to get majority coalition. It's corrupt over there NOW without giving the regime in charge even more tools to weaponize.

On 1/26/2024 at 5:40 AM, Rejoice said:

Just learning of this now.  He was such a gentle soul who lived his values.

 

He sure was  and did !! Once when we were short on corps tuition as internationals, he called me into his office, pulled out his wallet and made up the shortfall :)

2 Corinthians 10:5..casting down imaginations and every 'high thing' (vain reasonings and human logic) that exalts itself against the knowledge of God and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ...

John 5:39 Search the scriptures for in them you think you have eternal life and they are they which testifies of me.

(IMO) if one does not keep up with the present  truth, eventually truth slips from ones grasp and 'first love' fades. Team the searching and re-searching the timeless truths in God's Word with spiritual truths and s.i.t. and (IMO) again, one will stay fervent with gospel.

Raf, you've gone from JW to Pentecostal to back to JW and now to 'throw it all away ?? After tasting the goodness of God ??

After I was smart enough and spiritually attuned enough to kiss twi goodbye, I've kept up with teachings from Wayne Clapp, John Nessle and others including LCM as of late and I have so much new stuff and new old stuff that after 30 years I'm still convinced, excited and anticipating !

On 2/23/2024 at 1:26 AM, annio said:

Picking up this thread after a looong search for the best thread pick up, hope I judged correctly enough! I am comparing the structure and teachings/inferences in the Assembly of God church I am now a partner in, w/ those of twi/vpw et al.  The irony of vp lauding the early church model of church in the home, i.e a grassroots movement, and condemning later "organized" denominations that met in church buildings, really strikes me. (Especially in light of the current movement of many church-building-churches to emphasize small groups that meet in homes, as well as the large gatherings in the church building on Sunday.) He CLAIMED a decentralized free-flowing Spirit-led movemen t, whi ch it was in some key ways; but ALWAYS, he was to be honored as the Apostle Paul was, (claims to the contrary), and kept an iron grip on the power, money, psyches, and Biblical doctrines of twi. 

In CONTRAST, the Assembly of God folks (not that I have allegiance towards any particular denom), emphasize small groups, have a lead pastor VERY accountable to a local board, and have a central office somewhere in Indianapolis I assume, and I THINK a US headquarters?  The Way Tree myth that elevated Jerusalem got implanted in my cultized brain, I am more fully realizing.

The AOG church as a whole is structured much more like the 1st Century church in keyways, than twi ever was!!!  Twi HEADQUARTERS WAS THE CHURCH BUILDING/physical location that ppl identified with and flocked to whenever possible, magnified 1000 times! Names like the Biblical Research Center, or WOW Auditorium didn't really change a THING IMO. Yes, human beings tend to ID with and attach to physical locations, especially where their hearts are drawn to God. But the concept that twi was the 1st Century church in the 20th, was PURE FICTION AND DECEPTION.

(Sometimes I still long for the free flow of how twi grew, and I do love how the early church was apparently structured and flowed. Apparently the Gospel is moving beautifully in India with Sangat Bain's ministry which is based only on home churches, and has Zero Headquarters.)

But right now, I am learning, growing, and worshipping in this local church which BTW, is connecting more and more w/ other churches in our town, YAY!) And am coming out of Cult Fog, and viewing the Evolution of The "Biblically-centered" Church from it's earliest days until now as something to learn from, honor, and feel a part of. 

Thank you GSC-ers for still being here!!

And yet Australias largest AOG church had young boys sexually abused by the founder until he was found out, stood down and then covered up by his son who then took over running the church...go figure.

On 10/11/2022 at 11:28 PM, chockfull said:

Okay this is actually a longer piece but this guy has very logical mainstream Christianity perspectives on handling the Way.

He is spot on in pinpointing Vic’s textual errors and shoddy scriptural workmanship.

He presents maybe the best logical case on mainstream trinity views I’ve heard.

He is doing this as a series so the introduction pieces are good on cults.  He handles each one in depth.

Im listening to the other ones in the series now.

Okayyy...so we're back to the "if you don't believe the 'trinity' you're a cult" ?...really ??

On 1/23/2024 at 11:45 PM, Mike said:

In the past few weeks I have listened carefully to LCM's 5 most recent teachings, all on Joseph of Egypt.

Part 1 is here: https://archive.org/details/harvest-pt-8-the-remnant-of-joseph-254-12-23-23

This and the next 4 installments are the hottest Bible I've heard in many years. 

Many gaps in my knowledge were filled in; many old questions answered. 

Ditto Mike...so much new light and understanding...loved Proverbs 21:16,17 explanation and the 'blessing in the new wine' of Isaiah 65:8...let alone the 'revelation' of Proverbs 30:18, 19...he still sounds 'grumpy' at times tho lol.

Whats the chance of having a poll regarding who chose to get the covid shot, encouraged others to get it, how they feel about it one and a half years after the fact. Would they do it again and those who decided against it ?

On 10/30/2023 at 9:29 AM, Twinky said:

Posted by Christian Family Fellowship - popped into my FB feed today, don't know why.  I can't find an obituary notice at present.

It is with great sadness that we share that our dear friend and pastor, Wayne Clapp, is sleeping with Jesus, awaiting His return. At the families' request, we will have a celebration of life service at a later date.

Sad to learn this.  I liked Wayne and thought he had some integrity.  (For those of you who have other views, please don't comment here).

So sad, my wife and I knew Wayne and Ferne personally and I agree with Twinky, one of the very few leadership with morals and principles

On 8/18/2023 at 10:44 PM, chockfull said:

I thought Spanish and I thought he had worked many years in IO.  There are substantially more numbers in Africa continent and South America continent than there are in the USA.

So TWI has moved focus from recruiting hippies to Christian culture appropriation.  It is very ironic considering the scathing paper VP wrote when leaving his denomination to start TWI.  It heavily criticized his denominations overseas missionary work as Christian cultural appropriation.

I wonder if the money still stays local for the internationals like it used to.  Some of those international leaders are very rich.

Hey it’s a great strategy for the BOD to remain in power, to keep themselves above and removed, and keep the hype going.  “We have a worldwide ministry”.  They have used that excuse dragging their feet on any positive changes for two decades because it is too large a boat to turn quickly.  Meanwhile you witness major corporations many times the size of TWI completely reinventing themselves within a couple of years.

You know the only thing worse than Plaffy?  Second hand translated Plaffy.  I mean can they truly get the same level of isolation and control?  Can the victim blaming truly be set properly?  How are the students really going to grasp it’s the fear in that woman’s heart that killed her kid?

But many poorer countries have more superstitious cultures where stories spread like wildfire and there is less critical thinking.

When your cult is fading focus on 3rd world countries.

Last I heard (not that long ago) Australia has a couple of Million in the bank and former (and current) members have been trying to get their grubby little hands on it. I think thats why twi dug up the David and Bonnie Weekly 'corpses' and sent them there Lol

Interesting you mention Donnie Fugit. I'm pretty sure he gets a mention in the new movie coming out "The Jesus Revolution".....wonder who else may get a 'cameo role' ? 

On 12/5/2022 at 4:07 AM, Nathan_Jr said:

Except that most of these are NOT extremely hard to refute - many already have been. Many have been throughly refuted. (Is the new class still teaching throughly?)

The question is are they being regurgitated in the new class? Have you taken it?

There is no 'new class' as far as I know, just teachings put out weekly that when i find time I listen to some (not all)...I even enquired about donating some finance and was turned down (interestingly GS was happy to take mine)

On 12/5/2022 at 12:34 AM, T-Bone said:

Why do you  HAVE  TO SAY anything about Craig’s take and expansion on scriptures ?

I just have to ask – are you one of Craig’s public relations personnel?

The same reason you feel compelled to have YOUR say on nothing in particular and everything in general.

14 hours ago, T-Bone said:

I still haven’t heard from anyone who has taken PFAL Today. So, I brought my list forward (from here ) and added a few more items…To whom is this post written?   Anyone who has taken PFAL today.

 

Please let me know if the following topics are still taught in PFAL Today and if they have added any new details – like wierwille’s sources or phenomena…so…are the following items still covered in the new class:

4 crucified 

The Bible interprets itself

To whom the Bible is written

The 7 administrations

The law of believing 

The law of giving and receiving

does that little boy still get killed by the fear in the heart of his mother?

Receive, retain, release 

“For this purpose, was I spared”

The day Jesus Christ died

Who is The Word in John 1:1

The Bible is mathematically exact and scientifically precise 

Humankind were originally body, soul, and spirit

People can get born again of the wrong seed

The way to get back to the original God-breathed Word is by comparing translations and versions

As long as one loves God and neighbor they can do as they full well please 

Technically all the women in the kingdom belong to the king

Each believer can operate all 9 manifestations 

To receive anything from God you must know the 5 things - know what’s available, know how to receive it , etc.

you can’t go beyond what you’re taught

God can only speak to what He is

God can only give what He is

There’s only one way to rightly divide the Word - all other ways are wrong

Do you still have to hold all questions until the last session?

Do they specifically mention - by name - where wierwille got most of his material from?

Does the new class refer to the 1942 promise made to wierwille?

Does the class mention wierwille’s trip to India and healing a local man’s arm?

Does the class cover the mechanics of speech to teach how to speak in tongues?

Does the class still claim speaking in tongues can’t be counterfeited?

 

~ ~ ~ ~ 

 

If I think of more, I’ll add on later

Thank you in advance for reading this and giving it your honest attention 

Points 1-15 and 18-23 I believe are still very much valid and indeed from a personal point of view and in practical reality are extremely hard to refute.

On 5/23/2022 at 9:25 AM, Twinky said:

Manifestation = obviousness.

manifestation
φανέρωσις (phanerōsis)
Noun - Nominative Feminine Singular
Strong's Greek 5321: A manifestation, disclosure. From phaneroo; exhibition, i.e. expression, a bestowment.

Cognate: 5321 phanérōsis – a manifestation, a "coming to light." See 5319 (phaneroō).

 

Amplified version:

7But to each one is given the manifestation of the Spirit [the spiritual illumination and the enabling of the Holy Spirit] for the common good. 8To one is given through the [Holy] Spirit [the power to speak] the message of wisdom, and to another [the power to express] the word of knowledge and understanding according to the same Spirit; 9to another [wonder-working] faith [is given] by the same [Holy] Spirit, and to another the [extraordinary] gifts of healings by the one Spirit; 10and to another the working of [a]miracles, and to another prophecy [foretelling the future, speaking a new message from God to the people], and to another discernment of spirits [the ability to distinguish sound, godly doctrine from the deceptive doctrine of man-made religions and cults], to another various kinds of [unknown] tongues, and to another interpretation of tongues. 11All these things [the gifts, the achievements, the abilities, the empowering] are brought about by one and the same [Holy] Spirit, distributing to each one individually just as He chooses.

(I underlined the "familiar" bits.)

 

Now hang on a bit.  What's this about the expressing of words of Wisdom, etc?  

 

Step back a bit further.  Verse 7 states these obviousnesses are "for the common good" (same in several versions).  That's the common good of your friends, neighbours, colleagues, city; everyone, everywhere.  It's not limited to a fellowship or church setting.  So why do we suppose these manifestations operate only in private or in a TWI-setting?

Take a look at other people, outside of Wayfer groupthink.  You may well find that there are some people who seem extraordinarily wise, whose words offer comfort, guidance, etc - who always seem to know just the right thing to say.  It's their background, training, thinking patterns, all of that - and something else.  God has seeded, or salted, his people through all walks of life.  Let's face it - we all need someone wise to turn to.

Same with every other manifestation.  Even "gifts of healings" whether or not they believe in God, Jesus or that the earth is flat.  Soothing words of wisdom can operate just as well in conjunction with gifts of healings - see the rise of "talking therapies" these days, where we talk with trained counsellors, psychologists, etc or just mentors, to help us through difficult times.

TWI picked on the noisy stuff because it was an attempt to distinguish themselves. 

They forgot what might be more significant - being wise, having vision for the future [prophecy], discernment [getting a handle on the motives of others] etc.

 

This thread relates to TWI's newest class.  Do you think they'll manage to remember that there are other people out there upon whom God's blessings fall, believers and unbelievers alike?   D'ya think they'll understand that "common good" relates to everyone - and not "common with distinction" meaning only Wayfers?

I have to say (and I know it will rankle a number of posters here) BUT Craigs latest take and expansion on these scriptures is terrific !

The guys got a point..doesn't he ?? look at all the venom spewed at me over 'anti vax' stance...I guess history bears the truth on that one.

I've always been intrigued how Jesus referred to himself as 'the Vine'...when I think of a vine as opposed to a tree a vine moves, creeps, manoeuvres, goes around. Not much can get in its path and when something does, well, the vine just goes around, over or under, relentlessly moving and reaching out. Perhaps this is what Jesus meant when he said the gates of hell shall not prevail against him and the church.

I listen to Craigs teachings off and on and I have to say there are from time to time (imo) fantastically great things in them and even after a considerable amount of time in twi even some 'new light' (for my brain cells anyhoo) I was never at the receiving end of any 'face meltings' only a couple of humorous convos with the guy. Being in Australia I feel distantly safe enough to not get 'drawn into' any 'allegiance' or 'blind following' mentality.

1 hour ago, skyrider said:

The TWI Death Spiral Was Inevitable

This downward, corkscrew-motion of twi's "ministry" was inevitable.....inescapable.  Why?  Because God is not mocked.....and the truth, and fruit of one's life, eventually comes forth.  For indeed, wierwille was a "wolf in sheep's clothing" who cloaked himself with a persona and position that violated the very essence of Christian norms and the "Office of a Bishop."  He was every bit the man that the Scriptures describes of Simon in Acts 8:9-11.  The people had been deceived, for a season, and thought of Simon(wierwille) as -- "this man is the great power of God."

The fruit of twi's abusive, coercive actions have come home to roost.  The way corps has been abandoning this "twi-servitude" since 1977......wave upon wave, realizing how they were NOT bound to give allegiance to a pseudo-Christian (cult) outfit that cherry-picks selective verses while skewering others.  Nor, year after year, ignore the revisionist history of wierwille's past and proclamations of "greatness".....when his drunkenness, plagiarist, and contentious striving was divisive and demeaning to the body of believers.  And, martindale only added an exclamation point to it all.

Although this downward death spiral, this trajectory, has been happening for nearly four decades, it wasn't until the internet presence of Waydale (Paul Allen's website -- starting up in April 1999) that exposed the deception, manipulation, and exploitation elements at twi's highest levels for all to see.

·       Waydale gave a voice for victims to speak out.

·       Authoritarian rule was the intimidating heavy hand that smacked relentlessly.

·       Malignant narcissism was at the core of victor wierwille's drive for power.

·       Hidden in "leadership-language" -- the corps were to be brown-shirt followers.

·       Subjugation....to subdue the youth into a subservient body of worker-bees for twi.

·       Behind the doors of the corps indoctrination program were sexual predators.

·       Trustees, wives, corps coordinators, and others were enablers of these secrets.

·       Hiding behind Scriptures....was the subtle power of spiritual abuse in twi.

This last exodus of corps and others, the Revival and Restore Group (2016/2017) were the last of any "stronghold" that twi had on the infamous CORPSE PROGRAM.....LOL.  So, how does the board of directors respond to this???  More entrenched cover-their-a$$es.  And, put Donna Lombardi Martindale in the SEAT OF POWER AND CONTROL as CEO.....Chief Effing Officer, er.....Executive Officer. hahahaha Divorced and damaged by her husband from two out-of-court settlements regarding sexual abuse and predatory claims, Rosalie was able to slow-walk and incrementally move Donna up the ladder during a 20-year shell game.  I swear, this is SO OBVIOUS......and these people claim to be deeply-vested into research, r-e-s-e-a-r-c-h.  OMG

So, the activity on the field becomes dismal and the abundant sharing starts to dry up.  They push and push for the "remaining remnant" of corps (55-70 year olds) to hit the streets and WITNESS, WITNESS, WITNESS.  Yeah, like that's gonna work.  LOL.  Notice how the board of directionless idiots never look in the mirror to see what is causing the problems!?!?!   The authoritarians love this adulation and access to power over others. 

How do they attempt to fix these problems?  Obfuscation.

They direct their resources to muddy the waters and obscure THE EXODUS OF CORPS......to bring in young neophytes (new kind of life/energy) to teach/regurgitate wierwille's plagiarist class from Leonard, Power for Abundant Living Today.  Ugh.  For all their boasting of power.....wierwille and his yes-men walked in craftiness and handled the word of God deceitfully [II Corinthians 4:2].  What a clown show.  With today's internet......hopefully, most people will be able to sniff out this deception and exit stage left.

In the end, there is very little room at the top of the pyramid. 

·       Craig Martindale gets a $65,000 yearly pension.

·       Does Rosalie Fox Rivenbark Shumate get a $65,000 yearly pension?

·       How about Howard Allen?  And Wanda?  $130,000 total each year?

·       And, Donna is in line for this $65,000 yearly pension as well.

·       How many OTHERS???

·       Do the field corps get access to any of these pensions???

·       Or.....is THAT why the field corps are finally awakened to the con?

Wait till the young bucks figure out the scam.  Wait till they figure out that they are being fleeced of time, money and labor that goes into the pockets of the authoritarian cult leaders.  Then, they too will be bolting towards the exit doors.  Twi has always been a series of revolving doors and preying on the youth. 

When the way corps youth could NO LONGER BE EXPLOITED for rock of ages labor......the Rock of Ages STOPPED.  The Twi-Pharisees loved the annual pilgrimage to fill their coffers.

Me?  I got tired of the herd-fests and hypocrisy.

 

.

I don't think anyone below trustee level gets much of anything...David and Bonnie Weekly were shipped out to Australia to 'get things moving again' lol...they must be late seventies ? and renting a small apartment...oh but the local 'believers' did rock up and bring a plate of home baked cookies to show appreciation for their 'sacrifice'...so sad.

4 hours ago, Raf said:

I love how he adds 250 miles to The Word.

Does The Word say 250 miles? Nope. How about putting it in Australia? Make it hard for him to find. Put it somewhere so that the sin would take actual work to commit.

Why did that tree exist in the first place?

And if another religion approached you saying the reason for suffering is that someone ate from a magic tree at the suggestion of a talking snake, how much serious consideration would you give it?

Neither does it say Adam was "in the midst" ? Adam could have been 251 miles away :)

I'll put it back at you. IF you are a father (I don't know whether you are or not) and to have a beautiful, perfect child who would one day enable you to have an infinite number of same BUT you knew to have this you would also have a son (Adam) who would nearly screw things up...would you still go ahead and have that first child ?? I can only speak for myself and say YES !!
As for Rafs question of WHY place the tree of knowledge of good and evil smack bang in the 'midst' of the garden ? Well, that just magnifies man's inquisitive and disobedient nature...doesn't it. "Here Adam, here's a WHOLE lotta f...ing garden and panoramic sights for you to ENJOY...BUT don't wander over to that hole in the ground 250 miles to the west lest ye fall in and hurt yourself." Where do you think man's eventually going to go ??

On 5/11/2022 at 4:52 PM, WordWolf said:

I'd give that claim a LOT more credence if it had a matching track record.  If there were no Actual Errors for an Actual Errors list, I'd say that was remarkable, to say the least.  pfal- and all of vpw's teachings-  were visibly flawed- visible unless one refuses to consider the possibility they were flawed.  

For most people, that wouldn't really be a problem. 

Anyone teaching can mess up (although this particular field calls for harder work at quality control than some.)   It's only when someone goes around saying God Almighty was personally involved with it, so it has no errors, THAT is when the errors REALLY become an issue.

Agreed

On 5/5/2022 at 2:19 PM, Mike said:

 

I know. 

Plus, I might not even be right about that quote.

But I like the idea. 

IF God taught Dr, and Dr taught us, then that explains how extremely blessed I was when first learning PFAL, and it continues to this day.  I love the Epistles of Paul, and seen them as Jesus Christ's ministry to us in THIS administration.  I'd NEVER be able to do that had the class not been there consistently. 

I agree ! VP's stuff may not be all 'God breathed' BUT he put it ALL together like no-one else could have or would have...I believe THAT was 'God inspired'. :)

On 5/4/2022 at 12:33 AM, Bolshevik said:

(emphasis added by me)

It DOES sound passive.

If I gave something to someone, did something for someone, or the like . . . I didn't do it, God worked through me.  The receiver doesn't have to remember traits about who did what for who . . . in the sense of trust building and familiarity - relationship building . . . but God is behind the scenes working in all these faceless people.  Believer follows the formula, the people involved don't matter, The Word was done.  That is borg-like to me.

It is also infantile . . . Believer/Infant screams vaguely to the unknown universe/for mommy . . . God/Mother meets demands.  

 

 

I thought the Bible says in some of it's passages we ARE indeed infantile in our thinking and in other places actually ENCOURAGES infantile thinking...why would that be ?

Hahahahahhahahahhahah....hahhaahhahhahahahahhahaha....The Way of Turkey.