Allan

4 hours ago, T-Bone said:

Never mind a 2nd wave or even a 1st wave. Why do we need PFAL?

I’ve been on a kick of researching Gnosticism and reading certain New Testament “letters”  in light of the problems they address. The epistles of John and Colossians are probably the most notable letters to deal directly with a dangerous heresy that arose. Gnosticism wasn’t even a thing at that point - “Gnostics” didn’t call themselves that - it was a label that critics put on them - cuz they were all about having “gnosis” - a secret KNOWLEDGE. 

 

Think about the early days of the 1st century church. They didn’t have little New Testaments to pass out for witnessing or to follow along with while in church. They didn’t have a complicated theological system and didn’t need to teach converts the keys to the interpretation of The Word - they Experienced and SHARED about the Living Word - Jesus Christ. Mark 16:20 says they simply went forth and preached everywhere, the Lord WORKING WITH them. 

 

Why do we need PFAL? 

 

Honestly - I’m asking all PFAL-fans, why does ANYONE need PFAL?

 

 

Paul’s goal in writing the Colossians was that they may be encouraged in heart and united in love, so that they may have the full riches of complete understanding, in order that they may know the mystery of God, namely, Christ, in whom are hidden all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge. I tell you this so that no one may deceive you by fine-sounding arguments. (See Colossians 2)

 

Some scholars have said the issues that Paul addresses in certain letters are probably an incipient form of what later became known as Gnosticism; at its early stage it was essentially a religious-philosophical fused attitude, not a well-defined system of thought.   The esoteric exclusiveness and asceticism of its adherents had a negative effect on Christian freedom and was derogatory to the idea that the Holy Spirit could dwell in our evil human bodies – see the correlation in passages that correct the error of some seeking spiritual deliverance through philosophy and ascetic practices of self-abasement and severity to the body  Colossians 2    - and how knowledge puffs up   I Corinthians 13        and   Paul warning against myths,  speculations and vain discussions in  I Timothy 1   . 

 

In the epistles of John, we find Gnosticism was distinguished by an unethical, loveless intellectualism and repeatedly condemned  antinomianism which is a belief which rejects laws or legalism and argues against moral, religious or social norms. It’s not that hard to see how one gets from the asceticism of Gnosticism to libertarianism that advocates total freedom – especially in thought and conduct. If one views spirit as good and matter as evil then it’s possible one can slip into an indifference toward anything done in the physical realm.

 

wierwille’s theology in PFAL and expanded in the Advanced Class has virulent Gnostic strains – I don’t mean to suggest he deliberately and formally adopted Gnosticism. I merely want to point out there is an element of wierwille’s ideology that seems to hearken back to a Gnostic mindset. There is the tendency to lean heavily on speculation – especially in PFAL and the Advanced Class, the arrogant attitude fueled by thinking one has more of "the rightly-divided Word of God than any other ministry", practicing situation ethics – being flexible in the application of moral laws according to circumstances, and lastly intellectualism having a higher priority than faith, compassion, and altruism in other words, studying or teaching “The Word” is often thought of as doing “The Word” or is thought of as equivalent to exercising faith, selflessness and goodwill.

 

Since one way to define Gnosticism as being a religious-philosophical fused attitude makes me think of   Matthew 6:24        “No one can serve two masters. Either you will hate the one and love the other, or you will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve both God and money.” And that makes me think of the four biggies of importance and success that any of us can get caught up in – the relentless pursuit of fame, fortune, power, and pleasure. 

It would be impossible to determine what led wierwille to feel he had a superior knowledge or the fact that he lacked good moral principles; I have this two-bit-interpretation of Matthew 6:24  that people can make a religion out of just about anything – if you define religion by theory and practice then it could be really anything one is extremely devoted to, a belief system that involves worship of whatever – which means it’s the ultimate pursuit or of the utmost interest to which someone ascribes supreme importance; in that regard it could be based on self-interest, one’s own imagination and might even include one’s personal preferences even a predilection against what is good or proper. We’ve heard of “the self-made man” which refers to one who became successful and/or wealthy through hard work - not by inheritance or help from others. I don’t think it’s too far-fetched that people can subscribe to a self-made religion. Which would probably be fascinating studies on idolatry and hypocrisy – both Biblical and secular.

 

It’s ridiculous to argue about “the good stuff” in PFAL - whether it’s plagiarized homogenized pasteurized or immortalized. It just doesn’t matter. We don’t need PFAL. We don’t need anyone’s poor substitute or additions to what we already have with Christ. We don’t need keys to unlock a supposed secret knowledge. 

 

We don’t need PFAL and its pseudo-Christian  support systems (TWI and offshoots) and for that matter we don’t need any of PFAL’s rogue flunkies either.

 

That’s all for now folks! 

Actually I believe Timothy is one of the main places Paul confronted 'Gnosticism'....one of their beliefs was that Eve (was the mother of all living), created first and then Adam. They also believed that if women were not 'grounded' to the earth through the Gnostic 'secrets' they risked dying in child birth.
 

I personally believe one of THE best informed teachings on this topic is Wayne Clapps "Is hell a place of eternal torment".

2 hours ago, Twinky said:

Is the Way of/in Oz (as incorporated by TWI) still going?  It will depend on how it's constituted, but if not, then it may be possible to apply for it to be wound up and its assets distributed to other institutions with similar aims.  Is "The Way in Australia" (which looks active) the original (seems to be, from the guff that's in the About section on Facebook), or is it some unaffiliated offshoot?

I believe it's still active, if only on 'life support'

I know ex-wayfers in Australia have been trying to get their hands on the loose million or two in the way's account here in Australia...don't know what happened but insiders have told me it's locked up with the bank and has been for years...maybe that's why the Weekly's have turned up again lol

5 hours ago, Twinky said:

Posted by a friend who is a nurse in ICU:

QUOTE: I'm sharing this because it is an excellent example of the BBC providing the truth - the science, at a deep level, with perfect balance. It explains the potential for concern but also the uncertainty which enables us to prepare for anything to happen with knowledge and understanding. END QUOTE

New Covid variant: How worried should we be? - BBC News

Naysayers need not respond; it doesn't exist, for them.

well I guess the drug companies will come up with 50 vaccines eventually...wonder when they'll start charging for them...wasn't it Waysider who said unlike the 'flu' annual, emerging new strains of covid will have vaccines for it in a timely fashion ??

9 hours ago, oldiesman said:

It's not much but better than nothing.    Is it the same as here in the U.S. in that the pharmaceutical companies can't be sued and having a jury look at damages and compensation?

yes

1 hour ago, waysider said:

If you're that convinced believing works, you should have no problem believing the jab won't hurt you.

um, that would fall into the category of 'folly'...I believe lol

6 hours ago, oldiesman said:

Know what will give me a little peace of mind?  the ability to have the option to sue drug companies for damages: but these drug companies have immunity from liability in the event the shot causes some damages and death.   As the story goes, in the mid-80's the U.S. govt. gave pharmaceutical companies liability protection against lawsuits because the drug companies lobbied and complained they were losing too much money on lawsuits and may go out of business.   And now the govt. is on the verge of forcing the shots on kids so what happens if someone's kid get hurt in some way?  According to this piece there's some recourse thru the National Vaccine Injury Compensation Program but they haven't approved the covid-19 shot for this program:   https://www.cnbc.com/2020/12/16/covid-vaccine-side-effects-compensation-lawsuit.html

Here in Australia the government has been forced (through Senate voting) to enlarge the compensation claims for side effects of the covid 'drug'
Government widens vaccine injury compensation scheme to win peace with Gerard Rennick - ABC News

1 hour ago, Rocky said:

From the Arizona Republic, Nov 24, 2021

When you get a vaccine, you build up an army in your body. Or at least that’s how Dr. Erik McLaughlin describes it to his 6-year-old twins.

But most of the time, if that army is doing its job, we don’t even realize it’s there. So how do we know if it needs reinforcements? And if it does, when is the best time to send them in?

When it comes to booster shots against COVID-19, that’s exactly the question that public health officials, researchers, doctors and patients are trying to answer. While Pima County recently recommended boosters for everyone ages 18 and older, citing increased community spread, state- and national-level guidance is still developing. (continued)

Rather than some unknowable "don't believe what your senses are telling you" from our "good friend" Allen, who doesn't provide either any reasonable alternative perspective, or definition of WTF he means, other than just seeming to cast doubt on what those who are actually working to figure out the problem and solutions, researchers are working diligently to FIGURE OUT what's going on and how to solve it.

Those who heed such guidance clearly diminish their risk of severe illness and death. That seems like a BFD to me.

Yes my dear kiddies and grandkiddies...just get jabbed because it will save you from...covid...even though covid doesn't affect you and your own immune system is galloping ahead as you mature. It may also stop you passing on the virus to me and grandma, even though you still will even after your jab. Hopefully it won't affect you further down the track BUT you should still get it even though the 'scientists' and 'medics' are very unsure as to why you need to get it...but, you know, it will just give me such peace of mind...some perspective..pfftt 

3 hours ago, Rocky said:

AstraZeneca will on Tuesday open its new global research and development facility in Cambridge, a £1 billion investment that will be seized on by government ministers as proof positive that Britain can continue to thrive as a science powerhouse while outside the European Union.

Admittedly, the investment has little to do with Brexit as such. The decision to base the facility in the heart of the Cambridge science park was taken more than eight years ago, long before Britain voted to leave the EU. 

Nor does it help with the Government’s pet but fast coming-off-the-rails “levelling up” agenda; the vast majority of high-tech investment in Britain continues to be heavily focused on south-east and eastern England. 

But it does at least lend some support to claims that this kind of high-end industrial and research spending is unlikely to be much affected by the decision to leave the EU, contrary to some of the more alarmist forecasts of what might become of it at the time of the vote.

The grand opening comes at the end of what has been a turbulent couple of years for the pharma giant. When Astra was tapped by the UK Government to partner with the team at the University of Oxford in the development and mass production of Covid vaccines, it seemed to be a moment of triumph for Pascal Soriot, its chief executive, taking him for the first time into a whole new therapeutic area. 

But despite the company’s early success in producing a workable Covid vaccine, helping the UK to steal a march on the rest of Europe in vaccinating against the pandemic, it then all seemed to go horribly wrong. 

Astra fast became a political football in the outbreak of vaccine nationalism that took hold. EU resentment over Brexit became inextricably linked with European suspicion of the vaccine. Brussels sued for failure to meet delivery commitments; Emmanuel Macron, the French president, said the Oxford-AstraZeneca vaccine was “almost ineffective” in the over-65s, while his Europe minister accused the UK of taking “massive risks” by depending too heavily on its home-grown jab. 

Even today, with the delivery issues essentially resolved, Astra still struggles in many parts of Europe to overcome suspicion over the efficacy and safety of its vaccine. And it has yet to gain approval at all in the US, where American born shots are favoured.

Inexplicably, Britain’s Joint Committee on Vaccination and Immunisation (JCVI) has compounded the problem by focusing its entire booster vaccine programme on the rival, and much more expensive, Pfizer-BioNTech and Moderna mRNA vaccines.

That decision may have had more to do with an excess in stocks of the Pfizer jab – the Government hedged its bets by buying up far more vaccine doses than is needed from multiple different developers – than any deliberate bias against Astra. It left a sour taste in the mouth nonetheless, given Astra’s prior loyalty to the UK vaccination push and its huge investment in UK science. 

Fears over the Astra vaccine’s slight risk of causing blood clots seem to have fed into the decision to use the Pfizer alternative wherever possible in the UK’s booster programme. 

Announcing it in mid-September, the JCVI advised “a preference for the Pfizer-BioNTech vaccine for booster jabs, regardless of which vaccine brand someone received for their primary doses. This follows data from the COV-BOOST trial that indicates the Pfizer-BioNTech vaccine is well tolerated as a third dose and provides a strong booster response”.

That decision must now be revisited. The reality of the Astra vaccine is very different to the downbeat perceptions of it that have been allowed to gain traction in Europe and the US. 

Looked at globally, the Astra vaccine has in fact been a great deal more successful than any of its Western rivals. Largely unremarked, it is now the most applied vaccine in the world after China’s Sinovac Biotech, having already surpassed two billion doses. 

Pfizer is dominant in the US and Continental Europe, but the rest of the world outside China overwhelmingly uses Astra, which has licensed the product to facilities in multiple different jurisdictions from India to South Korea, Thailand and Brazil. More than 300 million doses a month are now being churned out.

What’s more, there is growing evidence, if admittedly as yet only circumstantial, that the Astra vaccine actually offers more durable protection than the rival mRNA products. 

Again, there is no hard data on this as yet, but one possible answer to the riddle of why the Netherlands, Belgium and Germany are experiencing lower infection rates than the UK but much higher hospitalisations, threatening once more to overwhelm public health systems, is because of the choice of vaccine and the age cohorts that were prioritised. 

If the Pfizer vaccine is less durable, it might explain why countries with apparently similar levels of vaccination to the UK – but with Pfizer the predominant jab – are now experiencing higher levels of hospitalisation and deaths. The seemingly better T-cell response that comes from the AstraZeneca vaccine may mean it gives longer protection, despite an apparently inferior initial antibody response. 

To be clear, this can be no more than conjecture at this point. All the same, the comprehensive rubbishing of the Astra vaccine that took place early this year, egged on by jealous national governments and commercially motivated rivals, looks ever more misplaced. Politics and commercial interests were allowed disgracefully to take priority over public health. 

Astra lost the battle to vaccine nationalism, but is now very much winning the global war.

The article is full of the words may, possibly, plausible, concerning, rivals, misplaced, politics, might, growing evidence, slight risk, sour taste, despite, compounded problem, turbulent, levelling up, off the rails, some support, contrary......does that mean anything to most people who are blindly 'into' the vax' ? Nope...ah well, ignorance is STILL bliss I guess :)

1 hour ago, modcat5 said:

Allan, your inability to keep politics out of this conversation has tested the limits of our patience.

And has failed.

We keep politics off this page to prevent conversations from descending into endless debates about political worldviews, not to mention the endless namecalling and false accusations of political allegiance based on real or imagined associations, which on this page have tended to undermine GSC's mission.

You are either unable or unwilling to keep politics out of this discussion. You will now be unable to inject politics into the discussion until further notice.

Ordinarily we would not make this kind of action public, but the constant in-your-face defiance of the no-politics rule needs to be addressed in just as public a manner.

Thank you.

ur welcome

On 11/22/2021 at 12:43 AM, waysider said:

My dad didn't believe ketchup had any special powers. It was just his way of saying, "Eat it and don't complain.".

sounds like the covid vax lmao

On 11/21/2021 at 6:41 AM, waysider said:

I think I'll wait and see if seatbelts save lives.

If it's a genuine, not generic seatbelt, fitted to specs and IF worn correctly...otherwise they can be more dangerous.

5 hours ago, waysider said:

Oh, you mean that country that is known for heightened awareness of personal hygiene?

Read the entire thing in perspective :) Don't be fooled by what your senses say...

Meanwhile here in Japan....
Covid-19: New research suggests Delta strain ‘drove itself to extinction’ in Japan | news.com.au — Australia’s leading news site

Nature 'running it's course'...the God ordained extinction of evil... nature eventually rids itself of useful idiots as well..."the insane says there is no God"..."put not your trust in man nor in the princes of man"...fear not!!

10 minutes ago, WordWolf said:

Some highlights from that linked article:

"Walensky also noted that the risk of hospitalizations and death is still greatest for those who are unvaccinated."

"'Studies show that those who are unvaccinated continue to be more likely to be infected, more likely to be in the hospital and more likely to have severe complications from COVID-19,' she said during the briefing."

As for the fully-vaccinated getting Covid, what did Fauci actually say?

"'It's a significant proportion, but not the majority by any means.' "

So, yes, get those boosters.  Decrease your risks as much as possible.

not a majority...yet...but keep those boosters happening...until the bodies own immune system turns on itself and begins to attack the bodies vein and artery outer walls (which is what causes the clotting)...).....

COVID vaccines and blood clots: what researchers know so far (nature.com)

OMG !! Don't forget to get your booster, and your next one and your next one...well you get the drift of where this is going...severe illness in immunized people and mild illness in unvaccinated who contract covid again !!!

Fauci says Covid hospitalizations rising among fully vaccinated people (msn.com)

9 hours ago, Twinky said:

And today I was forced to have another LFT because I wanted to visit a friend in a care home.  They wouldn't accept the test that I'd done not 24 hrs before.  I can accept that that's what they want, but the woman I spoke to was so snarky about it.

Anyway.  Surprise.  Negative.

Maybe next week will be different.  Been to a large funeral today, lots at the reception (wake) and lots of people breathing around and on me.  Hope they're all clean and vaxed.  Defo testing again next weekend!

Forced ??

9 hours ago, Allan said:

Another wonderful factual, data checked article on the potent beauty of our natural God given immune system !!

HIV positive woman ‘cured’ herself without treatment, study suggests | news.com.au — Australia’s leading news site

that's ONE that they know about...bet there's plenty more :)

4 hours ago, WordWolf said:

According to your linked article, the Spanish Flu took a heavy toll on the young and healthy specifically because it caused immune systems to overreact, which meant that healthy people with healthy immune systems were WORSE HIT since their "healthy" immune systems overreacted more, which was a greater risk to the person. 

I'm not quite sure what points about the immune system one can draw from this, but if I were struggling through the Spanish Flu's time, I'd be trying to get the vaccine as fast as I could and hoping my immune system wouldn't react like a healthy person's to the illness.   

Obviously a very differn't kettle of fish to the Chinese flu lol...and any shot for the Spanish flu would probs have been just as ineffective as this one :)

Another wonderful factual, data checked article on the potent beauty of our natural God given immune system !!

HIV positive woman ‘cured’ herself without treatment, study suggests | news.com.au — Australia’s leading news site

5 hours ago, oldiesman said:

Allan, you shared earlier that you got the disease, twice.   I'd be interested in knowing what your antibody numerical value is.. have you considered taking the "quantitative" blood test?    I would bet your value is higher than mine and I'm curious.       Also curious how high a jabbed person's value is too... please consider getting the blood test and share the results... Thx...

I'd be thrilled if my God-given immune system works the way it was designed to !

Flu survivors still immune after 90 years (nationalgeographic.com)

5 hours ago, WordWolf said:

For those who have no idea what Allan's talking about, I'll translate:

"experimental drug" -  all the different forms of vaccines formulated, made and distributed around the world, from a variety of countries

"because the Government told you to"-  all the dialogues around the world between elected officials and the public, including health officials,  all from countries that normally disagree on everything

"disregard all the side effects (including deaths)  and unknown mid-to long-term debilitating effects"-  the few known dangers for a few people getting vaccinated (as always happens)  is far more dangerous than the far greater risks of death or permanent injury from getting Covid because Allan says so

"just so you can 'be part of the crowd' or 'peer pressure' or a 'misguided sense of duty to fellow man" - paying attention to the medical experts and understanding them and agreeing, rather than bucking the establishment because it's the establishment and following the secret knowledge like Allan

"I don't see how this topic could be uplifting in any way regardless" - decreasing the body counts doesn't matter much

"It really could be a matter of life or death, just exactly whose, we'll have to wait it out"-  let's ignore all the stats that say that the innoculated survive Covid at greater rates than the uninnoculated and claim all the facts aren't in when plenty are in and conclusions can already be drawn as to whether the vaccines are safer than the illness

"I'm just glad I don't have to go to bed at night worried if some of those spike proteins are going to turn on my own bodies immune system after the 1st or 2nd or third or fourth or fifth or sixth jab !! " - I'm glad none of us have to worry about that, since it's a make-believe illness based on a misunderstanding of the biology.   I'm also glad I don't have to go to bed at night worried about catching the gol-bloots from the hind legs of the boo-shoo bird.

 

The world I live in doesn't even superficially resemble the world Allan thinks he sees.   Then again, my world overcame the Spanish Flu, I don't know what the story is in his world.

 

 

Speaking of Spanish Flu....
Flu survivors still immune after 90 years (nationalgeographic.com)

1 hour ago, Rocky said:

You are factually incorrect. The graphIC (it wasn't a graph)  was a complete statement of fact.

Your narrative from the beginning of this thread has been wrong, even if some details may have been right.

You OPPOSED and DEFIED rationality, logic and FACT.*

IF you had any reasonable level of communication skill, you would have been able to look in the mirror, or inside yourself, to realize that it's okay to have questions about the interpretation of FACTS and formulated a narrative to incorporate those questions to actually add to discussion in this thread.

*Oppositional defiant disorder (ODD), is a pattern of negativistic, defiant, disobedient and hostile behaviour, and is one of the most prevalent disorders from preschool age to adulthood. ODD is marked by defiant and disobedient behavior towards authority figures. 

** I am NOT a medical professional and am not attempting any kind of diagnosis of anyone. However, your consistently inappropriate interaction on this thread has not added to any kind of uplifted group understanding of the issue at hand. I am describing the interaction as potentially mimicking ODD.

and your welcome to your opinion...hilarious as it is...so someone who disagrees with you regarding getting a still 'experimental' drug injected into them because the Government told you to and disregard all the side effects (including deaths) and unknown mid to long term debilitating effects just so you can 'be part of the crowd' or 'peer pressure' or a 'misguided sense of duty to fellow man' or even just because of 'fear' and saying that person has Oppositional Defiance Disorder really smacks of immaturity....also...I don't see how this topic could be uplifting in any way regardless...it really could be a matter of life or death..just exactly whose, we'll have to wait it out....I'm just glad I don't have to go to bed at night worried if some of those spike proteins are going to turn on my own bodies immune system after the 1st or 2nd or third or fourth or fifth or sixth jab !!

This is just a real dogs breakfast, making it up as they go along...experimental, shoddy details, no responsibility.

Fauci believes the definition of being fully vaccinated will change (msn.com)