ex10

Yeah, I confess to not having read this whole thread. So shoot me. :)--> But I work in a profession where customer service is a big part of what I do. (OK, I guess I should explain that I actually got halfway to a master's degree in counseling before I took my current job.) Once we draw the line in the sand, there is no going back. And it ain't worth it. In my profession, not only as counselor, but as an interior designer who has to put up with alot of people stuff, I have learned that you really have to give people room to CHANGE THEIR MINDS. It happens all the time, and it's not a crime. :)-->

I hate to admit this but, even while I was "in" the way corps, I always wondered if I would be ashamed of my involvement someday. OMG, the thing I greatly feared has come upon me. Job:3:23. (Okay, I didn't look it up. If it's the wrong verse, I apologize.) Tis a sad day to recognize that one of the things I was most proud of (ie graduating from the way corps) is one of the worse mistakes of my life. :(-->

yeah, Ham, and even try visiting the Holocost Museum in Jerusalem, a place that any "Bible Lands Tour" sponsered by TWI didn't even acknowledge existed. :)--> A whole country exists today because of what happened during WWII and all the refugees leftover. Duh.....

Yeah, Sunesis, I feel the same way. I was not a throwaway kid, however, just a searching one. And here we are, decades later trying to make sense of it all. I hope I can salvage the good, yet recognize the evil for what it was. Tis a fine line we walk with our past, which so affects our today. :)--> Rascal, I've been on the planet long enough to know that there are no easy answers to anything. I feel like we have to sort things out for ourselves, so we can keep on keeping on, ya know? Thank goodness we have a place here where we can do that. -->

Take plenty of sunscreen, laugh alot, and a buile a sandcastle or two, friend. :)-->

and laleo, please drink something with an umbrella, and a plastic sword with pineapple, orange slice, And a cherry sticking out of the top if it. Cheers!

What if, and I repeat 'what if?" good ole human kindness and compassion took the place of all the promises of "power?" So, shoot me. :D-->

I love you,dear. please don't take it personally. :)-->

ok, what if, and I'm just saying "what if' suffering is not a bad thing. Having grown up Catholic, please forgive me, but what if suffering is really a good thing that "cleanses" us and bringx us closer to our maker. What if sacrifice (a totally biblical concept by the way) happens to be a good thing, instead of a bad thing? Then where are we?

happy birthday, verbie, and may all your dreams come true. -->

Ok, I'll bite. Perhaps "faith" as defined by Jesus is entrusting ourselves to God who tries like the dickens to reveal Himself to us but we are too dense to get it. Yes, it's my final answer. :D-->

So now we get down to the heart of the matter. What did Jesus mean by "faith?"

Well, the believing thing was a "foundational" doctrine that most who took PFAL bought into, a least for a while. Only speaking for myself, but I stuck around and tried it out, more times than I care to mention. Why didn't I recognize it as BS the first time I heard it? Maybe I'm assuming alot here.... I mean maybe there were those among us who knew it didn't work right from the start. Me......it took a few years..... And there are those I've gone around a few times with at Waydale and here, who adamantly stick to the doctrine, even though they agree VP was an abuser, etc.

Yeah, but what was the hook in the "profound fallacy" that worked? For a while anyway.

I've been in charge of VBS for a couple of different churches in my ex-way life. I just want the kids to have alot of fun and enjoy church. and have something constructive to do for one week out of the summer. Whatever.

I guess my point is, Wierwille had something going on, to make us think he was more than he was. If he was a total grifter from the start, I don't know. It's impossible to speculate about a dead man's motives. When he was alive, he fooled alot of us. He had something going on. Whether or not it was "spiritual" who can tell? We can go around and around as we seem to do here, about his motives. The truth is, we'll never really know what drove him to do what he did. Was he a good man gone wrong? Was he a bad man from the start? We'll never really know the answer, but I guess we'll keep on speculating forever. Each one of us must come to our own resolution about the whole thing. My problem lies with those who keep his bs alive.

And it didn't stop me from buying into it. The questions I have to ask myself are complicated.

Oz I can relate to your loss in a way. I didn't loose a child, but had a 2nd trimester miscarriage that totally did me in. Sometimes things happen, and they are just tragic. And all our prayers don't seem to help much, and they seem wasted, but they aren't. Even though your precious son didn't have much time on this earth, there is hope. He belonged to you, and you belong to Him. It will be made right, some day. Love you dearest.

I can't help but wonder how much our cultural biases affect the answer to the question, "who's fault?" We don't get what we expect from religion. How much are out expectations based on our cultural/religious definiton of "healing?" Does it have to be anybody's "fault" when life doesn't go the way we want it to? Is disappoinment in life due to the failure of faith? Or is faith the rock that carries us through our disappointments?

Thanks, laleo, for saying that.

I think it's easy to dismiss VP Wierwille when I think of him as a total monster, who was a huckster and grifter from the start. Yeah, I was young and naive and stupid. I spent my youth involved in something that I now am not so proud of. Toss it off as being youthful naivete, no problem. But if I think a little deeper, ummm. I knew the man, and my life was changed by his. In a real, human to human relationship, my life has been shaped by his. Hmmmmm. Not so easy to dismiss my past association. It gets a little more complicated for me personally. Maybe I make too much of small kindnesses. But then, maybe not. I guess my point is, the easy way out is to think that he was an ogre who was only out for his own personal gain, right from the start. It costs me a little more to consider the alternative, as Sir Guess suggested. Whatever, I can only speak for myself and my own experiences.

Yeah, there was a time, believe it or not, that self-sacrifice was a virtue. Somehow, that changed. Forgive me if I'm being too egocentric in my musings. :o-->

I mean his actions.

It wasn't always that way, is my only point. Maybe it was just my experience, but there was a time, when none of that crap mattered. Believe it or not.... Forgive me if I'm wasing nostalgic here....but I am a product of the 70's.... :)-->

Yeah, laleo. But he knew some of the crap was wrong, else he wouldn't have hidden it. :)-->