ex10

mark, ;) socks, I totally get what your saying, I think. (Presumptous people get on my nerves, so I hope I'm not being that way.) But yeah. I, too, believe that the contemporary movement or whatever it is that's going on, is a response to a great need. Heck, we could talk about this subject for days, probably. I guess I'm one of those that doesn't want to draw lines around it, color it, shape it and kneed it, put it an a box, and make sure it looks all pretty with a bow on top. Thank you so much for your perspective and input. Same goes to all who have contributed to the discussion. I have this passion that I just can't seem to squelch, that stems from first grade, baltimore catechism, which taught me that my purpose for living is to worship and obey God. Blame it on the nuns. But, to me, llife revolves around relationships with God, our Lord Jesus, and our fellow humans. And anything that helps me understand all that........is precious. I think I like living down here in the basement with the black lights and Peter Max posters.

Hope you get to be queen for a day, Radar! You deserve it. Lotza hugs.

Thanks, Mark, for sharing that. It's been a really long time since I was in catachism. I think it's pretty interesting that Vatican II has been credited (or blamed, depending on one's POV) for the whole "contemporary service" movement. Specifically the changes in the liturgy, ie using the common vernacular, more lay participation, etc. and the charismatic renewal have had huge impact, not just in the Catholic churches, but mainline Protestant churches as well. And I actually have been studying some about worship (latreia) but unfortunately, I don't have the time I like to dig. So you're insights are much appreciated.

Cool Mark. I assume that since you are of the Catholic persuasion that you prefer the more liturgical form of worship. And I do confess to enjoying the same on occassion. The priest while performing the Mass, during certain readings, lifts his hands in the traditional stance of prayer. I think it's a beautiful act, and I really don't understand--really--what the objection is if a communicant wants to stand that way too? As far as I can see, we are talking mainly about lifting ones hands in prayer, yet ever body wants to talk about chaos and "decent and in order" and such things. as far as I can see. But hey, I like to wander myself. And yeah, the passage you cited is really cool. There is so much more to this subject than appears at first glance, ya know? I'm actually reading Edersheims book on the Temple currently and it's pretty fascinating stuff. It's one of those books I'd meaning to read for years and finally am getting to it. Who knew worship was so complicated back then? Sure makes me appriciate what we have now. ps to Belle I'm making my Ro-Tel taco soup for supper tonight. It's de---lish. I have the recipe if you want it. ;)

Dove How do you know that the lifting up of hands mentioned in the bible isn't literal? The testimony of art and history says it is. Belle, you reminded me of the record of David in II Samuel dancing before the Lord. His wife was offended at him, and David told her he would "become even more undignified than this..." II Sam. 6 something. Reminds me of a song....... :)

Well, that's the camel that broke the straw's back. It's like looking for a haystack in a needle.

Well, I'll be an uncle's monkey.

His bite is worse than his bark. Godliness is next to cleanliness.

He who is lost, hesitates. ;)

Cool stuff, guy and gals, I think I might even be getting inspired to dust off my concordance and expository dictionary. I'm kidding, but not really............. Now ya'll've (southern word, sorry) got me really wondering what to do with myself when I'm at church and just feel like yellin "Yay, God. You rock!" I get the "worship being serious business" stuff, and being mindful of where ya are, what you're doing, who else is there, is my slip showing?, if it is, will it freak anybody out? etc. being respectful and considerate. So my next question is: What do ya do with yourself when ya just want to jump up and down and yell, "Go God! Give me a G.........." etc. Is there any place for that in a "decent and in order" meeting? ooooh, it just occurred to me maybe you're not sposed to feel that way in church..........

Even though the phrase "decently and in order" is used in the KJV, (it's translated "fitting and orderly way" in the NIV) it's not specifically defined what is "fitting and orderly." Could that possibly be because it could differ according to who, when, where? Or what type of meeting? Maybe it's up to the people participating in the gathering what is "fitting?" Some people like to fold their hands when they pray. A custom, by the way attributed to the Saxons in the 5th cent says Eidersheim. I wonder if anyone objected to that practice in the church when people first started doing it? I mean, could one man's "fitting and orderly" possibly be another's indecent and disorderly? B) And I'm not talking about waving my arms around. I think what we're talking about here is simply holding one's arms in a certain posture while singing/praying. See Mark's pic of the Chaldean Christian lady.

CM I assume you are referring to John 2:19? Jesus was referring to his body as the Temple because: In ancient Israel, the temple was the only place that Jews could worship. (Before that the tabernacle.) They did have synoguoges throughout Judea, but they were meeting places for teaching. No one could sacrifice in them. Jesus gave himself as the final, living, ultimate sacrifice. He was the Lamb of God. Once he gave himself and God raised him from the dead, it ushered in a new relationship between God and his people. That's why the veil was torn. They didn't realize it yet, but Temple worship was to become a thing of the past. (See Hebrews.) That's the reason the Jews got so offended at what he said in John 2:19. Hope that helps. ;)

hiya Dove!!!! You know I respect your opionion very much, (besides actually being quite fond of you :wub: ) but I have a hard time seeing the connection between "decent and in order" and choosing to raise one's hands instead of holding a songbook like we used to do. I usually have my eyes closed anyway, and don't lift my hands too much cause my arms get tired. But hey, if someone wants to, I think it's a beautiful expression of submission, humility, and reverence. Besides being a few thousand year old tradition. As far as the "holy hands" thing goes, you're right it's a "figure of speech" representing our cleanliness and purity before God. I think I might have a tad bit of a problem with people laying on the floor, unless of course it's in the privacy of their own home. I actually like to lay on the floor and pray at home, but I wouldn't consider doing it in church. Some people kneel when they pray, even in church. I don't have a problem with that either, as "bowing the knee" also is a time honored tradition of worship, sumission, humility. In fact, the word "worship" if memory serves me correctly, is also translated "to bow down." We are made in the image and likeness of our Creator, and part of that image and likeness includes our emotional make-up. To have an emotional response to God our Father and Jesus our Lord is a very good thing. (See Bible.) And if someone wants to kneel, stand, lift their hands, sit, whatever, I doubt God has a problem with it. I think maybe cultural considerations and tradition probably have more to do with this subject than we realize. As always, my opinion. But I must say, I've been in gazillions of different kinds of worship meetings since leaving TWI. And I can only remember leaving because of what was going on, once. And that was a pentecostal church where people were getting "slain in the spirit." And it had absolutely nothing to do with where you put your hands. B) I even visited Rev. Al Green's church in Memphis and I gotta tell you, it rocked. The praise and worship style was much more rambunctious than anything I was used to, but it was "decent and in order." And nobody there seemed to have a problem with it. My girlfriend and I were the only 2 white faces in the crowd that day, but I tell ya, if I lived in Memphis, I'd be tempted to go there regularly.

Yup, and posting klutzes like moi count on you guys! (Big wink)

My oh my. Just a reminder of how easy it is to misunderstand one another here, eh? :mellow:

smarty

chef to get to the Doctrinal forum, you have to scroll way down on the page that lists all Greasespot's forums. It's down in the dungeon, like at the bottom of the page of forums. Then, once you click on "Doctrinal," there is a list of different threads that you can explore. I think the one you are looking for says...."Jesus is here?" I hope this helps you.

And linzy, I should clarify. Said article was not about VP getting defrocked. It was about him being accused of an affair that resulted in a pregnancy.

Well, Linzy, if it's an urban legend, I heard it from the horse's mouth. Whatever. Maybe it's a false lead, but worth checking if anybody is totally serious about VP and his biography. And I admit, I'm not.

Yeah, I think poor Morgan has gotten overlooked in all the discussion. Morgan, you are obviously a consciencious Mom, and you feel the way you do. Don't feel bad, you did the right thing by looking after your little ones. Churches and other non-profits do this kind of thing as a way of trying to reach out to the community. It's not unusual, at least not in my little part of the world, but can be unnerving and questionable if one is not familiar. I don't really want to speak to the broader issues, as I'm tired and got a pile of laundry to catch up on. B) But I must say that I like kids, and never thought of myself as "sleazy" for trying to reach out to them. But I certainly don't fault anybody for their opinions and experiences. We all live where we do, and deal with what is.

yeah, Belle, it's pretty cool to have the option. I don't know what my thing is, but I often find myself getting teary eyed during prayer and worship. Good thing I'm not the only one in the crowd I hang with, so I don't have to feel like a total Geek. ^_^

chef What sky said and.......... "traditional, protestant, evangelical type Christianity", has had at its core the idea of a "personal" Lord and Saviour, Jesus Christ with whom a believer can have a relationship. In TWI, Jesus as Lord, and a relationship with him, was replaced by the Bible, and one's knowledge of it. Relationships with others in the body of Christ were relegated to not being very important as a consequence of this absent Christ doctrine, as well as the idea that he ain't God. If you're confused, join the crowd. :huh: I been there, done that too. It took me a while to sort it all out.

Belle, I suspect your friend might attend a church that subscribes to "Kingdom Now" or "Dominion Theology." Do a google on it. :)

I Timothy 1:8 "I want men everywhere to lift up holy hands in prayer, without anger or disputing." I think the emphasis in this verse is on "holy." As Mark mentioned, in the earliest depictions we have of Christianity, lifting up the hands was standard operating prayer procedure. Anyway, I find it ironic that a minitry who claimed to be patterened after "the 1st century Chrisitan Church" would so easily dismiss a very reverent and submissive prayer stance used by those who came before us. Not only dismiss it, but condemn those who want to. Wierd. Socks, I too have some pretty fond memories of BRC services. :) And I'm not a musician, but I am married to one, and I know standing up front playing your heart out and seeing the congregation have an emotional response to the worship can be pretty moving and inspiring all on its own. To quote one of my favorite songwriters, "worship is more than a song..." I think God and the Lord appreciate it when we are fully engaged, body, soul, and spirit.

Someone who claimed to be "in the know," told me that VP was actually kicked out of his denomination and defrocked. The reason was a scandalous affair with a church secretary that resulted in a pregnancy. This person claims that there were newspaper articles about the scandal, and that they were actually kept in the historical archives of the Way at the Sidney house in the 80's. He/she claims to have seen them. I have no reason to doubt this person. However, I also have no way of proving or disproving this claim. If someone is interested enough, it could be checked out I guess by going through the Van Wert newspaper archives. Problem is though, I don't have an exact date. It would take alot of time and research to figure this one out. But, if it is true, it should be in the biography, dontcha think? I mean, it has huge ramifications.