cman

I like to see from anothers point of view. Kind of like jumping into someone else's thoughts. And gaining a perspective that can be seen by no other way, but to put ourselves in anothers brain and seeing through their eyes. Not easy over the net, but can be done I believe.

Hi T-Bone, I like threads where people talk and not nit-pick about words but try to gain the meanings and values being expressed. Another way of putting it would be having a conversation. And not that the definitions of words don't have importance but that the ideas expressed by words being put together in order to get the many ideas flowing. Conversations should flow like rivers of water from the heart. Because everyone is different and has different perspectives, and everyone is the same cause we were all cut from the same stone. Just different angles and shapes of thinking that can be seen if we just try to see from different angles. And help to reshape that stone into a more flexible useful tool for helping each other.

Also interesting is that the flood was fifteen cubits high. If i recall correctly.

hmmm yeah, hard to put in words. on fire there Roy! i think that is what is meant by not lawful to speak it's words so unspeakable being the point revelations is proof of that being giant murals of truth being expressed imo has to be the work and knowing that no man need teach, or can

i can't find it either

YI- If you take some time to consider what Roy is saying there are some great things in there to understand. Not only about Christ but also about our beloved Roy.

Well actually it says 'i cannot tell' does that mean he can't tell as in not knowing or he won't tell yeah Vegan God knows. God point, it's his business anyway. :)

Yes Roy, true even while we live today. How can we see with eyes of Christ. Howm can we touch with hand of Christ. Without Christ at work within. A seed...the seed as promised. Your seed which is Christ. It sprouts and sustains itself through itself. Putting it on, this mind of Christ is our 10%. We let That Christ work the rest of the 100%. Where it takes us is quite the journey. Even caught up to the third heaven. So what body is he out of? Wether it was Paul or John or both. Could be the flesh, seeing it that way even as i type.

Hi Roy, I don't know if that's the fleshly body or the body of Christ. As meaning the functioning spiritual body here on earth. If we go to the head are we still in the body? Not sure if you get my meaning. Does the Christ need a body when we are one in him? Or is the body for others....as in helping one another. I've heard a few different things on this.

Yeah T-Bone, wouldn't that be somethin. How is it these people knew so much anyway, and could do so much. Certainly they had a bit of knowledge with a little work. But how much was actually the spirit at work. I've heard that we give 10% and God gives 100%. So so much for boasting, not only in salvation but all things. Do we see things or are we shown things. Giving a little, in a bit of a sweat to let that transformation occur. Why shouldn't all that in rev. and thess. be able to happen now. Just takes seeing it different, from the source. He will not dissappoint anyone I believe it says.

True enough polar bear. And also I think there is more to it then birds. As well as the lillies that are mentioned too. I mean look at how it's presented to Peter. Four footed beasts, fowls of the air, wild beasts, creeping things. Are they not representing people? I just don't think there is one meaning and, 'Thus Saith the Lord' and nothing left to let our eyes be opened a bit more to greater truths that we have been promised to see by the Holy Spirit revealing it to us. Not vain or empty imaginations but deeper truth. Hidden right there in a few simple thoughts.

Ha, yeah bird-brained.... Could be more true then facts... Anyway, here's the rest of the places it's used KJV: Ge 6:7 7And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them. KJV: Dt 28:26 26And thy carcase shall be meat unto all fowls of the air, and unto the beasts of the earth, and no man shall fray them away. KJV: 1 Sa 17:44 44And the Philistine said to David, Come to me, and I will give thy flesh unto the fowls of the air, and to the beasts of the field. KJV: 1 Sa 17:46 46This day will the LORD deliver thee into mine hand; and I will smite thee, and take thine head from thee; and I will give the carcases of the host of the Philistines this day unto the fowls of the air, and to the wild beasts of the earth; that all the earth may know that there is a God in Israel. KJV: 1 Ki 14:11 11Him that dieth of Jeroboam in the city shall the dogs eat; and him that dieth in the field shall the fowls of the air eat: for the LORD hath spoken it. KJV: 1 Ki 16:4 4Him that dieth of Baasha in the city shall the dogs eat; and him that dieth of his in the fields shall the fowls of the air eat. KJV: 1 Ki 21:24 24Him that dieth of Ahab in the city the dogs shall eat; and him that dieth in the field shall the fowls of the air eat. KJV: Job 12:7 7But ask now the beasts, and they shall teach thee; and the fowls of the air, and they shall tell thee: KJV: Job 28:21 21Seeing it is hid from the eyes of all living, and kept close from the fowls of the air. KJV: Mt 6:26 26Behold the fowls of the air: for they sow not, neither do they reap, nor gather into barns; yet your heavenly Father feedeth them. Are ye not much better than they? KJV: Mk 4:4 4And it came to pass, as he sowed, some fell by the way side, and the fowls of the air came and devoured it up. KJV: Mk 4:32 32But when it is sown, it groweth up, and becometh greater than all herbs, and shooteth out great branches; so that the fowls of the air may lodge under the shadow of it. KJV: Lk 8:5 5A sower went out to sow his seed: and as he sowed, some fell by the way side; and it was trodden down, and the fowls of the air devoured it. KJV: Lk 13:19 19It is like a grain of mustard seed, which a man took, and cast into his garden; and it grew, and waxed a great tree; and the fowls of the air lodged in the branches of it. KJV: Ac 10:12 12Wherein were all manner of fourfooted beasts of the earth, and wild beasts, and creeping things, and fowls of the air. KJV: Ac 11:6 6Upon the which when I had fastened mine eyes, I considered, and saw fourfooted beasts of the earth, and wild beasts, and creeping things, and fowls of the air.

I should have said-animals are not the point. or something like that.

Good question Jerry. I always had thought he was talking about John. But Paul also talks about visions and revelations revealed to himself in the same chapter.

What do you guys make of this. How is that Paul could not tell? Does that throw a kink in the structure hose that wierwille built? And his whole 'fellowship' scheme?

Belle, KJV: 1 Co 13:12 12For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known. KJV: 2 Co 3:18 18But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord. KJV: Jas 1:23 23For if any be a hearer of the word, and not a doer, he is like unto a man beholding his natural face in a glass: KJV: Re 4:6 6And before the throne there was a sea of glass like unto crystal: and in the midst of the throne, and round about the throne, were four beasts full of eyes before and behind. KJV: Re 15:2 2And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God. KJV: Re 21:18 18And the building of the wall of it was of jasper: and the city was pure gold, like unto clear glass. KJV: Re 21:21 21And the twelve gates were twelve pearls; every several gate was of one pearl: and the street of the city was pure gold, as it were transparent glass. It's all about the eye and what you see. Face to face is not something that has to be after death, as in graveyard type death. 8Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away. 9For we know in part, and we prophesy in part. 10But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away. 11When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things. 12For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known. 13And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity. We abide in what it says to but face to face is also something that happens. 21For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain. 22But if I live in the flesh, this is the fruit of my labour: yet what I shall choose I wot not. 23For I am in a strait betwixt two, having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better: 24Nevertheless to abide in the flesh is more needful for you. 25And having this confidence, I know that I shall abide and continue with you all for your furtherance and joy of faith; 26That your rejoicing may be more abundant in Jesus Christ for me by my coming to you again. These things also happen now. To depart and be with Christ. Simply put in order to understand. It can be compared to meditation and prayer. No man can see God and live, so one must die to be with Christ. Not literally, but letting our will and self die to yield to Christ. Maybe more then you expected, but just a few thoughts.

Yes Lindy-a perspective among many perspectives. I don't launch into a frenzy over one but consider and know of more. Which brightens and focus' the bigger picture.

I don't think any of those verses are talking about animals. But what happens in the minds of men and woman.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i5wnhO8gkno

People will change Jerry. Some will change kicking and screaming but it will happen. Young's Literal Translation- 21`Not every one who is saying to me Lord, lord, shall come into the reign of the heavens; but he who is doing the will of my Father who is in the heavens. 22Many will say to me in that day, Lord, lord, have we not in thy name prophesied? and in thy name cast out demons? and in thy name done many mighty things? 23and then I will acknowledge to them, that -- I never knew you, depart from me ye who are working lawlessness. 24`Therefore, every one who doth hear of me these words, and doth do them, I will liken him to a wise man who built his house upon the rock; 25and the rain did descend, and the streams came, and the winds blew, and they beat on that house, and it fell not, for it had been founded on the rock. 26`And every one who is hearing of me these words, and is not doing them, shall be likened to a foolish man who built his house upon the sand; 27and the rain did descend, and the streams came, and the winds blew, and they beat on that house, and it fell, and its fall was great.' This is talking about the ever present now imo.

Watching and experiencing the old die and the new come alive can be punishment in a way. The wages of sin is death-good thing-let it die-but the gift and grace are freely given.

Garth, Who said anything about "punishment" besides you. As if you know what it means?

And Christ spans all time. Unlimited access for every soul. Who is going to go against this kind of power and win permanent death? What is death anyway but a transformation. Jesus himself said he himself would be destroyed and rebuilt. Kind of puts the word destroy in a different light.

Hi Abi and Good mornin', I do believe all from Adam to Jesus have their places in heaven already. There are many mansions, so plenty of room imo.

All win one way or another. No one is left out of salvation. Some want it now. Some see it now. Some will see it after they die. hmmmm die....two ways or more to see that.... It's a lot to think about and i can post more, but gotta get some sleep. Peace