caribousam

hammeroni, I had said that I wouldn't be back in this discussion, but I am back. The tylenol analogy is not a good one. In the case of tylenol, the product was directly shown to be the result of someone's death. I don't think you can prove that there were any murders or suicides as a result of the training. Your wild speculations make for titillating reading, but don't do much good at getting at the heart of the matter. regards, CS

Hi rascal, I've heard many very sad, disgusting, and cruel stories about TWI. From yourself and many others in face to face conversations and other dialogue. Many CES founders and board members were certainly influenced in some way by all of this. One would think that they might try extra hard to avoid TWI type debacles. But it does make one consider that CES leaders who were leaders in TWI should be thoroughly "examined." Not to say that we condemn them, but due diligence seems very important in examining the credentials of Christians in positions of organizational leadership. CS

wordwolf, I never heard anyone say that this program is above reproach. To put any program on such a pedestal seems foolish. I reserve the "above reproach" label for God and for Jesus. There is potential for harm in many many activities in life, including Momentus/Vision Quest. Nobody is happy when "perfectly healthy" people are harmed by a program that is looking to do good. To hear that some have been harmed is not by itself reason to throw the program in the dumpster. The point I am trying to make is that growth often/usually takes risk, though sometimes the immediate results of risks taken don't seem positive. It seems that perspective and attitude seem to be the biggest factors in where we go in life. Wordwolf, I am permanently leaving this GS topic, which has run its course for me. It has been nice chatting with you. Regards, CS

hey rascal. I would like to know about that stuff. Maybe this forum is a good place to talk about it if u wish. I was involved from late 70's to mid 80's...I always had lots of questions and didn;t always fit in well. But I met Jesus, and grew up quite a bit...so it wan;t all bad for me...mostly good. I did sort of perceive some sort of unhealthy spirit of lust in Way Corps and other leaders... which is probably why I never got very close to them... I was and am far from perfect but at least I've avoided a lot of the traps related to being a participant in a Christian organization.

Brambe, Yes well people aren't sheep in all ways...don;t take the analogy past where it was meant to go. Believers should be responsible and accountable whether they are in leadership positions or not. I got the Sower as well, So John S. is definitely the new prez.

oh groucho...who wants to take a risk when we can merrily sleep walk through our days, ignoring the troubles that are in us, around us, and in the world?! Let's just go on cruise control in our good jobs, wiht our perfect families, in our wealthy land of milk and honey !! It's all good !! What's that "old fashioned" approach you talk about? Is that the one taught in mainstream churches in the US? The ones whose memberships are in steady decline...wonder why that might be ?

Diversity and uniqueness is something that the Bible promotes. Real issues can be dealed with in many ways. I've knows people who have been going to therapy for 20 years or more, and sometimes it seems like the greatest beenfactor is the therapist - financially and emotionally. I guess I'm no fan of therapists...though I'm sure there are lots of good ones out there. I've succesfully gotten through all kinds of junk in my life without "professional" therapy. Sometimes there are several or many ways to move life's mountains.

rhino, I never saw any drugs being prescribed...that's ridiculous. As I previously said, there was analysis goign on about peoples', thoughts, intents and motivations... but in the end each participant has to work it all out and sift through possible nuggets of understanding. It was not a training that handed out truth to people. Life doesn't work that way. Truth takes time and often a lot of effort to properly digest. And while it may be said that "Jesus is truth", working this out in one's life ususally takes a lot of time and effort, even when "the truth" resides within us.

gilligan, I never saw the training used as a bludgeoning tool. I think that your a mixing CES/STFI issues with Vision Quest/ Momentus. Separate organizations. There was some psychoanalysis to understand better our thoughts, intents, and motives. Some are uneasy that the persons doing the analysis weren't "certified." That is an understandable concern, but does not mean that folks doing such analysis were not qualified to do so. Sometimes qualifications are smokescreens for weakness. I wan't pushed into the training. Someone spoke to me about it, I had some interest, and discussion went forward, etc. It was a pretty normal course of dialogue. It is usually not good to do something that you don't really want to do (although this is not always true). -CS

One point is that I was trying to make is that it is unfortunate that some GS folks are very one sided when discussing topics like this. Sure, I understand that many were part of unhealthy organizations that more or less squelched free thought and speech. But it ain't heakthy to swing to the other extreme of just talking extemparaneously without a whole lot of deeper considersation, acknowledgement of conscience, and listening to that spirit of God. Dissent is fine, But keep it civil unless there is some burning reason not to. -CS

Wordwolf, It sounds like you are apt at doing exactly what you criticize others of.... Nobody has ever said "this thing is right next to the hand of God." I have said that this training course and one's similar to it have helped many people a great deal, and have great potential benefit. These types of training aren't perfect, but for me the potential benefit outweighs the risk. No smokescreen here - just an attempt at honestly looking at the training. I've been to one training as a participant, so my breadth of knowledge may not be complete, but there are others who have had similar results as myself. Cheers, CS

Vickles, did you actually attend the training ? If you did, I would like to hear your first hand experience, if you are willing....

hey undone, You make excellent points here. It's strange how some are not happy that some had positive experiences in Momentus/Vision Quest. But I guess that any training that has potential large positive impact on folks will naturally have its share of negative reviews.

Hey holy smoke, Any minister or training worth its salt is going to come under the gun from folks who have other opinions. Last time I checked - there's a spiritual war going on out there. People didn't exactly welcome Jesus with open arms when he started doing miracles, etc. They killed him. I'm not the final judge of the goodness or badness of these programs/trainings. What I want to say is that there are good opportunites for training and growth out there for Christians. Whatever you do, trust that God will be there to sort it all out. Realize that growth is gonna take risk, and there will be some stumbling, and some falling along the way. Don't close yourself in a bubble because you've been hurt or deceived. The peace and joy and love kingdom of god that Jesus calls us to live in is there for the taking, but it does require action and trust in God above all else. Go for it - God will be with you.

I recommended to my wife that she get her driver's license. Despite the fact that daily there are thousands of deaths due to automobile accidents! I guess I'm not true minister of God. Putting my wife in such danger!! What kind of slug am I ?!! Oh ductape - you're ministry is such a soft and loving one, floating on cotton clouds in a land of peace, good will, and safety. Your followers must be getting along well in this world free of wars, violence, corruption, and sin.

yo t-bone ! The conversations about this seem to be going in circles. So I'll just say a few words or two, and jump out of the circle for a while... That's the first time I've heard the stuff about signposts along the way...though I kind of like how they put it. There's a lot of truth there. You talk about folks in these trainings taking your money and interpreting the signposts for you. That is exactly what they DIDN'T do. Yes - I paid money for a class. $150 or something like that - big deal. But in my experience there was never anyone human there to interpret the signposts. There was a God and Jesus there with me who did interpret a lot of signposts. And I did learn a whole lot about how to better trust God in sorting out the "signposts" of life. God can and does work with us as we are. He loves us and wants to make all of our experiences be a time of learning and growth. A spritual get rich quick program is not at all how I experienced it. I gotta believe that a lot of the over the top negative stuff out there is from folks who had experiences in the classes that were less than fruitful or negative. It's hard for me to say what percentage of folks had postive experiences. The program as I saw it was a program of great potential benefit - with some benefit coming quickly, and some over a longer term period of time. But like any program, I saw that there was a potential that some could get nothing out of the program. Those who came to sit back and sow nothing probably didn't get much out of it. Those who put a lot into the program got a lot out of it. I'm guessing here about these numbers, but in my training there were 13 people. I'd say 3 got a lot out of the experience. 5 people got a moderate amount of understanding. 4 people didn't get much out of it. 1 person quit after the start - refusing to sign the disclaimer. If Jesus is really strongly present in any situation, that can bring about personal peace and resolutiuon of issues. Close experiences with Jesus can also lead to situations where people close to you will be offended by your changes - they can no longer push your buttons and make you part of their unholy kingdoms. That is part of what these trainings are/were about. What I'm trying to say is - any real good work sponsored by God and Jesus will not be praised and lauded by all. If this is the case, the training is probably not worth much. Satan and all of his companions and unwitting associates start getting their collective asses in gear when they see the seeds of understanding and godliness starting to take root and blossom among his enemies. If anyone here besides myself in GS Land has actual experience in a training - Momentus, Vision Quest, or Breakthrough - I would like to hear about it. It's good to have hard data about experiences in the training. Sometimes the web and blogsphere blabber isn't a great representative of reality. Cheers ! CS

Regarding this comment you made: Now when people assume their pet program or class has cornered the market on truth and deem any negative reactions to it as a shortcoming/defect/weakness of the participant – an alarm sounds in my head. I've experienced first hand that kind of thinking in TWI – and don't want anything to do with that ever again. That's just it - the Momentus / Vision Quests folks never say or act like they have cornered the market on truth. And all types of feedback are welcome. Feedback after the training is requested. After the training, I left Michigan to my home in New England, and heard little more from any in the group. I have befriended and kept in touch with several - but that is it. That kind of disappointed me from a fellowship point of view, but there is definitely no signs of a pushy culty type of behavior in all of this. TWI screwed up a lot of people. But it doesn't have to be the end of their personal growth, and the end of being able to have reasonable trust of people and groups of people. Don't let your bad/evil/difficult experiences live in you in unhealthy ways. I've taken all kinds of hits from all kinds of people and groups - Christian and non Christian - but have miraculously (praise God !) stayed faithful and grown. Right perspective in life can lead to some really nice pastures. I am not in the business of promoting Momentus or Vision Quest. But I do have an interest in chatting about my experiences in Christian organizations and groups. It's good to compare and contrast and try to figure out how to fellowship without getting screwed. To develop a sense of smell for good and bad orgs. Understanding and growth IS what I would like to be all about.

hey Rich - good one !!! Perfect !

pond, There are some grains of truth in your ramblings. But you go way over the deep end sometimes, and your rantings don't make any sense. Sounds like an over reaction to something or other that you've been through.... Relax...sit back on my couch...take a deep breath....and let it all out...slowly...slowly though...you can get through this crap. I've been through the crapper and near the valley of death...Jesus and God are good...and they can help you through it...no I'm not trying to be condescending or funny...but as rich says, your boat is sinking and you need to grab onto a paddle, or fix the boat, or get out of the water, or buy a new boat...or else move away from the water....love you buddy !! CS

Speaking up is very important. Deciding who is repsonsible for evil is sometimes not easy. Ultimately we are all flawed and sinners. But the only way to grow is to take accountability, look honestly at our selves, and work towards better more godly ways of life. Clearly there were TWI leaders who were nasty nasty leaders, and I'm certain that God and Jesus look at abuse by those in authority as a very serious matter. Luckily I stayed basically on the fringes of TWI for about 7-9 years...I learned a lot, I learned to love God, Jesus, the Bible, and my fellow believers. It was the start of a life of very fruitful prayer, worship, and fellowship with God. But I never much liked the leadership style of many of the Way Corps folks - some were ok I guess, but a lot of them gave me the creeps...they were too much into controlling things, creating a model of God and godliness that just didn't line up with the purposes of Adonai. And not lining up with the right purposes moves the journey to places of ungodly desert or wilderness...after that, a lot of folks pull them selves together, figure things out, and search for greener pastures and true fellowhip. At least that's what I did. -CS

yo ducttape, Christ was all over the place in the training. Christ was not explicitly mentioned in the training pamphlet. The training was not reserved for Christians only. Most in the training were Christians. So a couple questions for you - is it possible that there could exist types of training that are good for some, but for others - potentially hurtful ? If this is the case, is the training "bad?" Stop ranting and give this some thought.... GS - a land of whiners and complainers !!! (and now I'm becoming infected too!!!)

The exercises were to make people think about, among other things, life, our choices in life, and hte consequences of our choices. The life boat exercise wasn't my favorite, though it did make me think about what it means to "give my life to God" or "die for my brother/sister." But I didn't agree with some of the analysis afterward. It seems that most people here think that the Momentus/Visoinm Quest training is generally bad or harmful. But that could just be part of the general way of thinking in the US that puts blame on others instead of being more concerned with taking responsibility for our own thoughts and actions. A lot of us have become a weak bunch of whining and complaining victims. The road I like is different...a road paved with forgiveness and forgiveness and forgiveness...not that I should or will be unaware of sin in me and around me, but as much as possible I'll strive to keep the multitude sin viruses from living in me.

Hi holy smoke, I think that a lot of the talk about Monmentus here has greatly exaggerated things like screaming, etc. My experience of the training was that there were some healing emotional releases for some...but no screaming that I can recall. Like your Theophostic Prayer, it was a way to bring healing by listening to God's voice and seeing God's spirit in action. God works in many ways, more than just through quiet counsel, meditation, and prayer. That stuff is all good, but what I'm saying is - don't put God in a box. He created life and a world that is incredibly diverse, and his ways to heal and nurture his people are also very diverse. IMHO. CS

Right I agree with that. Jesus is the Good Shepherdand there are some that are co-worker shepherds. Gotta get back to my farm...the chickens are sqwaking the cows need milking, and the barn needs fixin' - it's cold up here in Caribou, Maine. Love and peace from CS...

Hey sprawled out. OK, if that's your attitude then I will see u later pal. I don't have time for you. I'm trying to lay the facts as I see them. To me, you are very blind and arrogant, and my time is valuable. I won't hold anything against you, but for now will put you on my ignore list. (I can hear you cheering!!) CS