caribousam

Hi Jeaniam, Yes, you kind of capture what I was trying to say. The main point being - without holy spirit, there is truly a missing piece, and wholeness of thought, being, action, and motives is not possible without that missing piece. And "full" agape love is not possible without the h.s. Non Christians do good things, sometimes really good things, but in a way all is for naught without the holy spirit within. Sounds harsh, but I think it's biblical. Part of me would like to say that this isn't so, but the scriptures seem to say that this is the way things are. -CS

Interesting point about the renewed mind. But I can see how the complete definition of agape could include the renewed mind part. I just don't know if the agape definition was put together by VPW in a way to enhance some twisted agenda...I hate to think (and don't believe it.... maybe i am just too naive) that I once fellowshipped with people who were such snaking connivers The love of God in manifestation in the renewed mind to me sort of connotes that there is a difference between loving God from a renewed mind as opposed to from a mind that is not being renewed. It could then be said that someone who is not a believer cannot have - in a Biblical sense - a mind that is being renewed, and therefore cannot really love God in an agape fashion. It could be then also said that - in the spirit of "if you don't know me then you don't know the Father" - that someone without holy spirit, unsaved, cannot truly love in the agape way. Still, that "love of God in the renewed mind in manifestation" is a mouthful, and sounds kind of cold and clinical. Loving your neighbor and God as yourself sounds more do-able. Have a great weekend! Peace and love from CS !

Paul explains in Corinthians what agape is. But as is often the case, words just don't convey the real sense of what it really is. As a Christian, I have thought about it a lot myself. Unconditional love is not all that hard to do. Or is it ? What's more difficult is trying to figure out what the motives are. Sometimes I will think about motives too much, which can get me sidetracked and into a place where I do nothing. At times I have "felt" agape in me - that sounds weird - but I have had at times this really excellent inspirational type agape love to do something, or pray for someone, or worship God in a way that comes from deep in the heart someplace. Getting connected to God in this way is very cool. "Love of God in the renewed mind in manifestation" somehow sounds so cold and clinical. too many words, not enough life. -CS

hey topoftheworld, Ouch, ouch, ouch...I feel your pain.... :( If that is you that you are speaking of - as I am assuming - I have sent a prayer on your behalf... -CS

Ouch, that hurts ! Tou-che ! CS

You know that you are in TWI if your Way Corps twig leader tells you that you shouldn't marry the sweet woman that you have so much in common with.... ....and 20 years later, you are still happily married to her, and many of the Way Corps "perfect marriages" have long since died.

I'm sure I'll get some flak for this, but here goes... You know you WERE in TWI too long when you notice that you cannot stop griping, complaining, and whining about all the bad things that were done to you...even though you left the group 10 years ago...

Hi dmiller, I went to the Advanced Class in 1986 in Emporia Kansas. I enjoyed the fellowship, the hot dry weather...the class was ok, I did learn some new things...a lot of my real "Advanced Class" learning has come in the sometimes mean streets of life before and after that time. But I somehow alonmg the way learned to keep open to God and truth and learning, no matter waht, and I think that there has been a continual growth path in the right direction. Praise God ! I'm thankful that God and Jesus ahve never abandoned me. At times in my Christian walk, I have done some really really dumb things, but my salvation and fellowship remain. Cheers ! CS

bolshevik, As far as twi goes, it's been about 20 years or so since I was involved with them...but my prayer life over time has gotten deeper, richer, more fruitful. Prayer in TWI meetings was hard for me at times. Partly it was due to fear of saying something stupid. If there were Way Corps Marines around, it made things worse. But the heart and sould of my prayer life is just between me and God, and Jesus. I think that that is the way it is supposed to be. Also praying with my wife is pretty powerful. There are times when I really really enjoy praying for folks as God brings them to mind. It's sort of like being in the "zone" while praying. Cool stuff. In general, I find myself praying about all kinds of things all the time, pretty much like the Bible talks about, though there are dry periods in my life where I just have a hard time getting myself to pray. Speaking in tongues, thankfullness, and praise intertwined around my prayer life seem to make things happen. Also keeping a pure heart. Well that's my two cents for now. I'll pray that your prayer life gets richer and deeper and more meaningful. Regards, CS

cowgorl, Yes she wasn't afraid to be herself and speak up. Too bad her ideas were often wacky and she frequently lacked decorum. Sometimes she was just plain disgusting. I'm happy she is off TV. My prayers have been answered. CS

hey rottie, I agree with that. JAL is an excellent writer, but not so great of a speaker. I've always enjoyed hearing JS teaching on tape/CD or in person. He is good at it, very knowledgeable, not dull. CS

I saw this documentary a few night ago. At the end, Jim Jones was a really warped monster. It seems like earlier in the history of his church that he was a decent human intent on putting together a true community of believers. It would be great if we were able to see how his path got so caught up in a slippery spiritually deceived slope. There was some very genuine love and joy in that community in some of the earlier days. It seems that part of the problem was JJ's overly controlling character. Near the end, he had become many cards short of a full deck.

Wb, There are some amazing details of this experience which I have mainly kept to myself to this day... Yep I have seen some kooky looking people say that they were casting out or had casdt out bad spirirts. I believe strongly that my experience was genuine. It's nopt something I generally talk about much...a lot of people would think I'm nuts...on the other hand I have seen and experienced God's power in this realm and feel some sense of responsibility to pass along this understanding to those who are seeking

hey wb, how are u today ? This person has been better for some time...a little shaky for a week or so after the experience, but basically off the depression track for good after that...I talk to that person on a regular basis, and they seem to be quite well. No more of the deeply rooted anger or depression for about the past 18 years....looks like the healing was real and from God. I've heard that when God heals it is permanent (in the area healed), though it seems that this might not always be the case. In this case it seems to be true. I would say that when God heals he takes care of the root cause, and in general it will be very difficult for those particular bad roots to take residence again. -CS

Hi wb, I guess I made I mistake - for some reason I was thinking that it was you who was suffering depression, but after scanning your posts in this topic, there is nothing that points that way (directly or indirectly)... You seem perfectly well! Hallelujah ! Regards, CS

Some thoughts from an insider/outsider: Those are interesting insights. It seems that CES - wittingly or unwittingy - developed a sort of clique-y way of being. There were the inner circle leaders in Indiana, and then another wider circle of Indiana folks around that, and then everybody else. It seems that the inner circle was trying to keep things very close to the vest, maybe out of a concern that too much outside influence might bring impure stuff into the ministry. But it seems that the overly controlling ways of the inner circle left many folks who were not part of that clique feeling very out of the loop. There was a lack of opportunity for many (like myself) who were excited to do all kinds of things to promote God and Christ in everyday life and culture....but creative ideas were shot down pretty quickly. So the inner circle lacked accountability, but they wanted strong accountability from those outside the circle. I can see how that would cause problems.

That is a good question. Part of the problem with CES has been lack of transparency about things. I'd had a sort of arms length relationship with CES for several years, but it was always hard to tell what was going on among the leaders in Indiana. In John Lynn's case, he was off the board, the he seemed to be still really involved at one time...etc. Secrecy about these kinds of things doesn't seem to work well for anyone.

Hi waterbuffalo, I have been involved in various teams that have been able to cast out spirits. And yes I know of someone who had a devil spirit cast out of them and no longer has depression. The depression in this particular case I would say was caused by a spirit of anger that had a deep hold on this person. And I don't think that the deep deep depression that that person experienced has returned. But medicine seems to be the best way to go in some cases, though it is always good if the root of the problem can be dug up and dealt with. A very difficult task sometimes. I'd be glad to help you if possible...shoot me an email at serious41us@yahoo.com Warm regards, CS

hey ca_dreaming, yeah that seems to happen a lot here at GS --> too technical, and bad hearts...a bad combo that causes the downfall of people and organizations...it's a drag....

Sometimes those that are qualified on paper are not the right people for the job. Sometimes the right people for the job lack paper qualifications. Either way, I would prefer the qualified person to be in the job, with paper qualifications or not. Life experience is a vast proving ground that makes us experienced in many areas. People that are inspired and able and are in a job that they love would seem to have the best foundation for being really qualified. Formal training and certification is nice, but obviously doesn't tell the whole story.

I never knew VPW personally, and never heard him publically admit to any specific sin or wrongdoing. I did hear VPW call himself someone "who is sometimes a miserable sinner." But it would be nice, refreshing, and helpful if Christian leaders in general would admit their sins and weaknesses. To admit a general sinfulness is good, to admit specifics may be called for at times, though I don't need to know all the gory sinful details of any believer's life...at times messy details do need to come out in the open for the good of all. Also, sometimes in today's climate of instant news and gossip information sometimes has a tendency to be misused and exagerrated.

If you like history, you might try this one. I have read through about 50 of the 800 pages, and it is an informative read from a center-right point of view: "A Patriot's History of the United States: From Columbus's Great Discovery to the War on Terror " by Larry Schweikart.

Yes I think your viewpoint is a good one. Too many hurt people unfortunately just become hurters themselves. As a Christian it's good to have a deep sense of understanding and compassion for our Christian brothers and sisters.

Hey rich, Yep good saying...Yesterday's storm here was brutal...shoveling 6 inches of heavy slushy snow and ice was backbreaking....a great workout which I'm still recovering from !!! Spring is around the corner CS

Hey rich, how are things going? The outlook doesn't look bright for CES. Maybe things can be fixed. Maybe not. If leadership would've just been more open and honest about things, things may have been worked through in a much better way. -CS yep, I think there are probably some common threads that worked evil in both groups. It would be good to understand what they are.