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caribousam

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Everything posted by caribousam

  1. Hey pond, I think I understand some of the points that you are trying to make. I just really really don't like trashing Christians because of their faults. And, by the way, I'm not saying that you are trashing anyone... CES leaders - principally Graeser, Lynn, Shoenheit - it seems to me have not been able to really help people enough in developing their OWN lives and relationships with Jesus. "Sheep" often fall into lazy patterns of blindly following shepherds, and not using their God given brains and abilities to question, learn, and grow. It can become an exercise like watching TV - entertaining but passive, and sometimes pointless. Lazy sheep can entice careless servant leaders to prop their own selves up and act sort of like gods. It's kind of an ugly cycle. But God does choose people to lead his people - and the onus falls on those leaders to do the right things - to focus more on teaching the sheep to fish instead of just throwing them bones. And to make sure that the sheep aren't falling into lazy patterns of disbelief and inaction.
  2. Hammer, Yourself and a few others here at GS have the habit of wildly exaggerating and going over the top to cause destruction. Like vultures going in for the kill at any sign of weakness or error. So here is more fodder for you...Yep I went through the pillow exercise at Vision Quest. It was enlightening. It wasn't a cure all for all my foibles. It was a way of opening my eyes to certain unresolved bitterness. Momentus and Vision Quest and the like are good for some, not so good for others. I don't think you would be able to handle it well. Doesn't make you better or worse than me or anybody else. This kind of training just isn't right for you.
  3. hi therbutforgrace, I understand what you are saying, and it makes sense to use God's terminology in some situations. But in this case, I don't want to get stuck in using this or that terminology. My point for this discussion is to encourage brainstorming, new ideas, and free thought. In the end, I trust that God will be working through all of this to open some eyes and brains to some new understanding. Sometimes being too worried about the right words can get in the way of understanding. Words are words. They are not wisdom or understanding.
  4. Nobody has to put together anything. But it is cool, empowering, and fulfilling to be part of a healthy group. And we can do this or be part of this if we choose. If we don't want to - fine. Like a lot of things in life, making it obligatory makes a lot of people walk away...God doesn't oblige us to a lot of these kinds of peripheral things, bu he does oblige us to "love." The flavors of Christianity I see where I live do not suit my taste. They all taste like vanilla or vanilla mixed with rotten bananas. Dull, or dull and corrupt - not inspiring. Voice of the Martys is one group which I really like, but that is a group I am connected to at arms length... I guess internet groups and arms length connection are nice, but I have an appetite for something more. I have a committment to organize in some way, so I have no choice. What I like about my project is that there are many many ways to develop and be part of healthy groups. I have an idea of how the project will go, but I'm sure that there will be lots of refining done by the Potter. No, not Harry Potter. Just glad that I'm a simple lump of clay.
  5. Hey pond, I have been involved with the Way and with CES, and mostly experienced none of what you mention here. Maybe some people did - but generally I don't think that that was the case. The Way was at one time healthy. Up until sometime in the mid to late 80's it seems...after that things did get screwy and cultish... CES has had problems and time will tell if the ship can be righted. The Way seems like a long lost cause at this point. The 'cult' label has been put on the Way and CES maybe in large part due to doctrinal differences which differ with much of established Christian groups. One of those beliefs is that Jesus Christ is not God, and that the doctrine of the trinity is a man made doctrine. Thoughtful people - especially non Christians - can see fairly quickly that the doctrine of the trinity is a convoluted and strange doctrine that cannot be well supported by a clear and close look at the scriptures (or by common sense). Yep, I have looked closely at those scriptures.
  6. So, many here in GS Land have been part of some pretty screwed up Christian groups - churches, ministries, etc. But, there is a lot of benefit in coming together and organizing in larger groups. Being a lone wolf Christian is cool for some periods of time for some of us, but there is more life to be found when we are well connected to larger groups. So how about doing some brainstorming to help figure how to do this right ? One baseline rule I will put in place for this discussion - anarchy is not an option. The question then - how can we build a Christian organization that is dynamic, organized, and healthy ?
  7. Dude, you are kind of vicious... Judge not lest ye be judged - an interesting piece of Bible that is often misused and misinterpreted. Glad that you have an opinion sprawled out...we all have them. Lots of bitter folks here in GS Land. I understand how that might have happened, but...work to get over all that crap....time to get out of the mud and move onward and upward !! God bless !
  8. Hey pond, it seems like you missed a lot of what I was trying to say...maybe it's a style thing... No I'm not trying to be arrogant. I'm just trying to put forth some of what I've learned and seen from God. I don't think of myself as a super believer. But I do feel an obligation to speak and teach when I have the chance. Knowledge can puff people up, but that doesn't mean that God wants us to be without knowledge. Without knowledge it is kind of hard to move to wisdom and understanding. I'm glad you feel you got the "better deal." I thought that there was one deal - salvation through Jesus Christ. CS
  9. There are lots of Biblical references. I can get those to you if you are interested. It will take a little time to put it all together for you, so I want to make sure you are interested in learning before I start on this path. Time is valuable to me. Personal prophecy has had some influence on some decisions I have made. What is has often done is confirmed something which God was already been trying to let me know about. In other cases, it has helped me sort out some of the root causes of things going on in my life.
  10. Hey Oak, yes you are right, JAL's comments are not logical. I do believe that he has a large need to CONTROL things...this kind of attitude can bring about bad results in Christianity, and in life in general. I've seen good and bad things about CES, but one thing that seemed to be especially hurtful was leaders' need to CONTROL at times when it may have been better to just let things BE. Just thinking out loud.... CS
  11. Hi EP, hi hammer, Yes I've had some excellent personal prophecies from KAG and others in CES. Done right, it's powerful stuff that can build people up and provide direction. That's from my experience, and by the way - also the Bible's point of view. I've given and received personal prophecy to people in CES and other groups as well, and my experience has been similar. Covet spiritual gifts (enablings), especially prophecy. That's what that 'ole Bible says... Yep, sure, spiritual enablements have the potential to be used wrongly. But there is also great potential profit, so I for one am willing to take the risk, trust God, and learn how to work God's power that lives in me. People who view these enablements as a thing of the past or out of reach for Joe Christian will obviously have a different view of things. CS
  12. I don't blame them for not talking in this forum. There is too much hateful spew going around, and a lot of generally over the top commentary. If people would tone down the gossippy chatter, think before writing, and work toward some real resolution and peace, and we might get some where. Blessed are the peacemakers, right ?
  13. Hi estimated prophet, I agree with pretty much all of what you say. Unfortunately, a lot of people in the USA have this win or lose mentality which causes them to throw out the baby with the bath water. Instead of holding on to the good they've learned, some just throw it all away. In an imperfect world, this is not a great way to go. Wisdom from above is available which helps us to discern, and help us be able to keep the good while acknowleding and staying away form the bad. I've fellowshipped with many Christian groups and have been able to learn something from just about all... cs
  14. Hey Hammeroni, You seem like you might have bitterness hanging around yourself. If so, get rid of it - it's an anchor that you don't want to be lugging around. If it's not the case - cool. Anyhow, this topic has run its course for me..I am kind of tired listening to folks gripe and complainsts about Momentus/Vision Quest.
  15. Hey Tbone...cool. I'm glad that you seem to have your "head on straight." Looks like God has given you a fair share of wisdom and knowledge. Yep, how we process or react to all that happens in life is in great part up to us. Some things are just instinctual or "no time to think reaction" but there is an awful lot of stuff where we have to take repsonsibility to do what is right.... Vision Quest, (aka Momentus) helped me to get a clearer picture about how some of all that works... I was in the Way as well but mostly took from it a lot of good things - knowledge, experience, connection to God...but I sensed the writing on the wall in the late 80's - a sense that the group was falling into an abyss - so I headed for greener spiritual pastures...I thank God that I came through pretty much unscathed. It seems to be the same with Vision Quest - I was able to sift some good among all the junk that was going on.... I'm told that I can be awful naive at times... maybe that dumb innocence has served me well...
  16. I don't want to sound like a jerk...but...blaming others for decsions YOU make is going to get you into trouble, especially if you are a Christian. I pretty much agree with that CES position about those who have problems due to this training. If that is not what it is, what is it ? I'm not trying to be a jerk, but I appreciate a deep dive into things like this. It is important to know and understand the roots of all of this if possible...I would like to really understand the good and the bad in these types of training. Don't point me to a web site. Let me hear about YOUR experience...if possible...
  17. I am not actively promoting these particular trainings. I am only saying that I had an overall positive and frutiful experience at Vision Quest. And that this type of training is not for everyone. Sometimes we need to get out of comfortable and/or set ways of being and doing if want want to grow. Sometimes growing will be painful. As a Christian, I seek out better ways to give, to grow, and to learn. Prayerful thought, study, and prayer often takes me to places that I know are right but might sometimes seem unusual or strange to others. I've long ago learend to confidently take to the roads that seem right, often despite the criticism of family and friends...and it has made all the difference!! The Road Not Taken - by Robert Frost TWO roads diverged in a yellow wood, And sorry I could not travel both And be one traveler, long I stood And looked down one as far as I could To where it bent in the undergrowth; 5 Then took the other, as just as fair, And having perhaps the better claim, Because it was grassy and wanted wear; Though as for that the passing there Had worn them really about the same, 10 And both that morning equally lay In leaves no step had trodden black. Oh, I kept the first for another day! Yet knowing how way leads on to way, I doubted if I should ever come back. 15 I shall be telling this with a sigh Somewhere ages and ages hence: Two roads diverged in a wood, and I— I took the one less traveled by, And that has made all the difference. Well Jesus did do some radical things, so it's a not so hard for me to see him using some unorthodox methods. Sending pigs into the sea, raising his voice to raise the dead and quiet a storm, and confronting the religious establishment of the time make him pretty radical. Yes churches should teach the Bible and help people get to know Jesus. Unfortunately this is often not the case. What a lot of churches seem to be into is growing in size, collecting money, and throwing out some Biblical crumbs so that people keep coming back. The reality is - professing, devout, serious Bible believing Christians are some of the most messed up people around. At least that is true here in Massachusetts. My advice - go to whatever church or training or fellowship that suits your fancy. Take responsibility and ownership for yourself and your actions. And trust God to help you make sense of it all.
  18. I understand what you are saying. But there is a lot of potential good in these kinds of courses. Situations, circumstances and events in life can leave us burnt out, confused, stuck..and kind of hypnotized to a general way of being that may be stagnated or just plain ugly. Courses like Momentus or Vision Quest ( a variation of Momentus) can be helpful in getting us out of the ruts and into some better understandings and perceptions about ourselves and our lives in general. I don't see anything wrong with a group like CES promoting Momentus. But tHe thing about these kinds of intense training courses is - people must be mature enough and ready for something like this. Talking a deeper look into the reality of ourselves and the world around us can be too much to stomach for a lot of people. -CS Yep, it's pretty simple. Some are not ready or willing to confront the crap that lives in them. Got it ?
  19. I saw Dr Phil on some Christian program - I think James Robeson and his wife. Dr. Phil and his wife both professed some serious Christian beliefs, which was nice to hear. But from what I saw and heard, it was hard to tell how much of what Phil and wife were saying was for "sales effect" and what was from the heart. -cs I got a lot out of the training. A real lot. Some didn't get much of anything in my class. One possible problem I brought up about the training is that the same methods and exercises were being used over and over, which I thought was maybe starting to make the bread stale. -cs
  20. I completed a seminar that was very similar to Momentus - Vision Quest - and I had an enlightening experience. It was also exhausting, and very difficult at times in places where I had to face some of the less noble or weaker parts of myself. But in the end, I learned a whole lot about myself and how to connect with God, and discoverd or rediscoverd some of the more important points about being a Christian man. It was for me a productive, positive, character building time... That said, I would say that this type of training is not for everyone...those that are not ready might not have such fruitful experiences. No I don't think that CES's involvement with Momentus was an example of being blown about by every wind of doctrine. I think it was an example of them realizing that CES/STFI doesn't hold all the answers - doctrinally or practically - so it is a wise thing to collaborate with others of good reputation. CES/STFI has made a lot of mistakes, but I don't see their involvement with Momentus as a mistake. IMHO.
  21. caribousam

    Swingers

    hi dot matrix, yep that's kind of the bottom line with a lot of (sinful) tempations in life - there are lots of things that attract us due to some need that we have, but taking the bait leaves us hooked into something that just ain't healthy.... love you ! caribousam
  22. caribousam

    Swingers

    I'm a man who has been married for 19 years - happily I would say - but there have been times where I thought it would be nice to have close female friends - totally platonic friends - in the idea of - "they are my Christian sisters." The thought and intent I had is I believe well intentioned in the Christian sense. The practicality of doing this is another thing. There is only a certain level of friendship I have been able to achieve with women without getting into what looks like a danger zone. Once or twice I've gotten in some pretty bad pickles when my platonic friendship withj a female started morphing into something else. Thank God that I had some perception about what was going on and the long term implications of my actions. Fortunately I have been able to cut off realtionships which were getting to friendly and keep my marriage alive and healthy. Practically I find it very difficult to impossible to have close friendships with females. Couples befriending couples seems to work out much better. Maybe when I am an old man it will be easier....
  23. Hey Jeff, How's it going? Nice to see that you are apparentyly doing well these days. God bless my friend...

    Sincerely,

    caribousam

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