another spot

I think that the fact there are so many denominations is proof enough that the leadership is NOT doing IITim. 2:15, and a host of other things. The schisms are a direct result of the actions and decisions of leadership rather than “layman.” The one body is a gorgeous reality. On the other hand, the Bible does warn everyone about false prophets and teachers. The proof is in the pudding and discerning the difference is not simple, as we all know from being in twi. They will deceive even the elect. Maybe the one body is one house with many rooms. God covered and continues to cover my human limitations and the limitations of others. If He can create the universe, He can probably figure out how to get me what I need to know when I need to know it, by whatever means He wants. Jesus is still the head of the Church regardless of what man does or doesn’t do. The whole thing that got us into trouble with twi in the first place was trusting a man to teach correctly. The Berean’s were more noble than the ones in Thessalonica because they searched the Scriptures daily to see if what they were taught was correct. That I think is the safeguard. I choose not to limit God in my life concerning what I can or can’t know or how, no matter the circumstances of my life, religion, or any other criteria. I freely admit there is a lot I don’t know. Man is just not perfect. Five minutes in a newspaper shows us that. What we can do is help each other and do the best we can. We can’t do any better than that. But God can.

Personally, I keep all my sand evenly distributed…then there’s no temptation to stick my head in it. Twi’s one shoe fits all formulas are imo much too simplistic. It was God made easy, life made easy, and that by itself is not realistic.

Of course, I didn't write it for praise. I wrote it from my heart. You are are part of me. I am a part of you. Together we are what we are. I hope to give you something of me that you consider worthwhile from time to time. You certainly give me much...

Eyes: coming from you, high praise indeed!!!

GS is a place to: yell, scream, complain, encourage and be encouraged. It is a place to learn and unlearn. It is a place to put things together and dismantle other things. It is a place of humor, crying and speaking frankly. It is playful and serious. It is a quilt of different colors and patterns. It may be a crazy quilt, but it’s ours. And that’s ok.

Very articulate, Templelady. To that I would add that denominations were compared to the Pharisees and not on their own merits. Then to say the heads of them all were run by “seed boys” was really over the top. The irony of course is twi was a religion itself. At the same time, I think Keith does raise some valid points: I think the point about context is very important and a key point to understanding both vp and twi. I thought he was raised Evangelical Reformed…or is that what he got into as an adult? For myself I have no knowledge of what denominations were like back then other than the one I grew up in, which was indeed a negative place (going to hell every five minutes). Culturally in general the U.S. was fantastically different then. Civil rights were just starting to be addressed (blacks at the back of the bus, separate restrooms, etc), women’s rights, and it didn’t even become against the law to abuse children until the late 80’s and early 90’s. Then there was Viet Nam, Nixon (Watergate). It was a culture in which a significant number of “baby boomers” had little confidence in “the establishment.” From another perspective, lots of awful things have gone on in history (even today) in the name of religion and those things were carried out by men who thought they were right, all others wrong, and they had/have the right to carry out capital punishment. Religion I think is fine, it’s just some of the people in them and sometimes running them that are the problem. Markomalley said this on a different thread that I think is appropriate here: “Something that I thought from the moment that I was exposed to TWI (and still think to this day) is that if the mainline churches did their jobs better, there would have never been a need out there to be filled by a cult group like TWI. And that's a shame.”

Posted by T-bone: "For this purpose I was scared."

“Where should this go.. don't worry. I can go almost anywhere..”-- Ham. You’re too easy. You must be a tame squirrel. Bloviating??? Never heard of it. Looked it up and by golly it’s a real word, and not a typo. Obviate. I know that word. Oblivious? Intimately familiar with that one. The things I learn on GS… I appreciate the clarification on Life Lines. I had thought they were entirely vp, and later on came across the same quotes in other things I read. Then I was scratching my head about it.

Jean, I am so glad you had a good time. The last vacation I took was about 5 yrs. ago to Maine. It was fun to see the lighthouses. I’ve learned a lot too. Thank you for taking the journey with me. Your friend, Deb

Good perspective, Mark. I'm sure appreciative of your insights. Eyes, you really write well, and you put a lot of heartfelt honesty in what you write. I’ve learned a lot from you. Like you, I got into it because I wanted to know more. My insides felt there is more that I was missing out on. I felt that very deeply. I think I was right about that. I think there isn’t a thing wrong with knowledge. What was wrong with twi was the context. God desires all men to come unto a knowledge of the truth, the comforter will lead into the all truth, this is how you rightly divide so you don’t have error, which is all great if not joined with we are right and all others are wrong, the denominations are clueless and evil at the top, we are the true household, etc. Had it been true, it would have been ok. It really would have. Knowledge only puffs up when isolated from love or too heavily emphasized. I don’t think any of us woke up one morning and decided to join a cult or decided to be arrogant in any way. The packaging gave us the attitudes we had and thus we took on the fruit of the one who taught us. It wasn’t a decision we were cognizant of. Maybe I shouldn’t say “we.” I don’t want to sound like I think I am speaking for everyone. This all brings me to what is for me the core issue. I went looking for bread, and it really appears I got a stone. Since I don’t believe God would do that, there is another explanation. Is the answer I was simply deceived, or is the answer that I got enough bread to get me to the true bread along with some deception and error? Right now I think the latter, but I’m not sure. Maybe I’ve been on the right path all along, it is just proving to take longer and requiring more effort than I expected (and also a different ending to the story than I thought it was going to be).

I really didn't mean to put this here... And, I'm not even sure where it should go.

I came across some vp quotes on the internet. I have been away from twi long enough they shocked me. First off, how does the dictionary define religion? These are a few points. 1.a set of beliefs concerning the cause, nature, and purpose of the universe, esp. when considered as the creation of a superhuman agency or agencies, usually involving devotional and ritual observances, and often containing a moral code governing the conduct of human affairs. 6.something one believes in and follows devotedly; a point or matter of ethics or conscience: noun 1. a strong belief in a supernatural power or powers that control human destiny; 2. an institution to express belief in a divine power; "Christianity is not a religion. There is a lot of religion in so-called 'Christianity' today, but that is not God's fault. Religion is what man does; Christianity is what God wrought in Christ. Christianity is not a religion--it is The Way, The Truth, and The Life--it is what God wrought in Christ. It is a father and His family; God is our Father, and we are His children. That puts us in the household of God." By definition, Christianity is a religion. Of course it is something man does. That is man upward and horizontally. What God wrought is God downward, which we do experience. "A believer's peace is lost when he allows sincere, religious people to put him under the covenant of works of the Old Testament. And when a believer loses sight of the truth of his standing in Christ then he loses sight of grace, mercy, love and the power of God. Then he gets into confusion as to the truth, and his peace evaporates, and it is gone." I dunno. I think I’d just as soon remember “Thou shalt not commit adultery…” Of course legalism isn’t right, but my “standing” doesn’t preclude certain works of the O. T. If that causes confusion and loss of peace, so be it. The O. T. doesn’t have truth? "Religion has made the Word of God of non-effect by its tradition. That is why today men and women are living in deserts of spiritual despair and they drink from the stagnant pool of tradition instead of the fountain-head of God’s revealed and written Word." I have been to a number of churches since twi. Not one had much tradition, if any. The people I have met are typically joyous. "Religion has always enslaved people and pushed them down. It has made them feel incompetent. It has degraded them and told them how sinful they were and how worthless. (Horrid grammar) But the ministry of the Word has brought us up to tell us who we are in Christ Jesus." Sounds like twi to me… "The truth which is the true Word of God, today is unsettling to men’s minds because it is truth and it contradicts tradition." Again, what tradition are you talking about? "Christianity is not what man does; Christianity is what God has done through Christ. The object of religion will always be to direct the flesh, and by rules and regulations try to make the flesh bring forth spiritual fruit." Christianity is what man does/practices. You bet, direct the flesh and avoid sin is a good idea. (See Romans). How about we look at spiritual fruit in context? Galatians 5:19-26 (NIV) The acts of the sinful nature are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; idolatry and witchcraft, hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God. But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness and self-control. Against such things there is no law. Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the sinful nature with its passions and desires. Since we live by the Spirit, let us keep in step with the Spirit. Let us not become conceited, provoking and envying each other. Ummmm….the acts of the sinful nature sound a lot like twi to me. Clearly the context has to do with directing the flesh not to sin. It is talking about obedience. And here is my personal favorite: “Negative motivation is the basic ingredient in our cultures. It sells products; it sells government; it sells religion. Motivation is a primary prerequisite to a successful success, or to a successful failure.” Negative motivation: how about if you leave you are a copout or a grease spot by midnight? You will die, get possessed, ect.

I'm a biker babe in the UK: “You can't miss Debbie _____. She wears a pink mohican on her helmet "I'm known for having my pink fluff and hearts. I found this in the Isle of Man and just thought that's perfect!" And...DEAD!!!!

That is a fun site. Power for Abundant Living: Unfavorable Downing Trip The Way International: Wanna Totality Herein Twig Coordinator: Dictator Grin Woo, Tragic Indoor Tow BUT THE BEST ONE: Athletes of the Spirit: A Sheerest Tiptoe Filth

I consulted a dictionary (but forgot to check the Greek word). Butt is used variously. She was the butt of the joke, butt like a goat, to meddle, the end of a cigar, and other usages. I am thinking this is a multi-purpose garment that can be used for a container, covering, and possibly protection. Hopefully it is stretchy and colorful.

I’d be glad to go fishing with you Rascal, if you will agree to bait my hook, remove the fish, and clean them. Maybe I’ll just watch you.

Boy that brought back a memory I had forgotten. I had a real good friend who was living a way home. He got home from work one night and there was an engaged couple going at it in the middle of the living room floor. He made the mistake of saying something, and got his room torn up the next day while at work.

“In life there will always be folks you get along with and others that rub you the wrong way. In TWI many of us learned to fake it. We were told to just renew our minds and get along with our brother or sister in Christ.”—dooj That is a real good point. I remember feeling really disoriented after twi with regard to dealing with people, since I no longer trusted anything I ever learned. I started reading Waydale and learning about waybrain and discovered all kinds of things that are impediments to even being a nice person, never mind get along with anyone. Sushi, that is the funniest avatar I’ve ever seen. Larry, the feeling is mutual. Absolutely. Here’s what’s funny about that. I got mad at him about some of his early posts. He got mad back. We’ve been good friends ever since. Once I got to know him (which didn’t take long at all), I discovered he’s a really tenderhearted, intelligent person. Maybe it takes more effort to understand and get an accurate picture of someone on the internet. It’s sort of impersonal as a medium. I think it’s natural to want to defend or at least support your friends. Why do I keep coming here? Because twi is such a pervasive thing. It is nice to talk things over with other people who have been through it. No one else understands it like we do. And, I’ve have some good friends here. Ex, let’s all dance the choo choo. Cook hamburgers or something. I’m in. I actually can spell. 2 years ago, I took an entrance exam so I could take some classes. I scored 100% in spelling, 90 something in grammar, but um, flunked punctuation…

I really don’t get this friction. Jean and I have been working together on the “holy thing” thread. She has stuck with me on it for a long time, from the beginning until now. Others have come and gone. She has been a sweet and good friend. She is level headed, intelligent, and a valuable asset. She is also open minded. I have found her to be really, really great to work with. I would be hard pressed to find a better person to do help me on this project. I haven’t had as much interaction with John, but it seems to me he is trying. So what is up with this? Why is it I have such good experiences with Jean and others do not? Seriously. I don't get it.