wrdsandwrks

Huh...it all gets so fuzzy, but it seems like a couple of people I knew from Colorado were sent to VA.

There was a red-headed guy named Gary from CO in our branch. His sister, Karen, wasn't with us but she was in the 9th Corps with me.

Which Corps were you in? I don't remember Nelda, but I didn't live in N.O. after WOW year.

Hey w&w, thanks for resurrecting this thread...I had forgotten about it.

Yep I was there at the Joyful Noise concert and also at the big meeting by the Lincoln memorial. I can't remember now if those took place during the same weekend or not.

Well I think they must've been because as far as I remember we only made one trip to DC. Actually, I thought that Joyful Noise played at the Lincoln Memorial, but it's kind of a hazy memory to me so I could be wrong. What do you remember about it? Was there another big meeting too? Was Wierwille there?

I remember another meeting in Virginia Beach that year with VP. There's some pictures of our WOW branch in the Way Mag. from that meeting (Whew Who, we're famous!)

Richmond? It seems like I knew someone who got sent to Richmond that year. Where were you living before going wow?

Fellowshipper who posts here was in Richmond that year.

I was from New Orleans, well actually a suburb of N.O called Metairie.

Not trying to be contentious, but why do you feel the manuscripts were preserved? We don't have anything within a century of an "original", and what we do have has numerous inconsistancies and differences.

Hi Oakspear,

I guess I have a different perspective on this. When I first read your question my thoughts went to all those monks and scribes copying away in monasteries and scriptoriums, and also the Jewish Massoretes who put a "fence" around the Old Testament words to preserve them.

Then I thought about the barbarian invasions and other wars and campaigns throughout the years where so many "books and parchments" were destroyed. The passage of time, moisture, decay, insects and other factors of time were also enemies of preservation.

Then there were the translators, Wycliffe, Purvey, Tyndale, who risked their lives or gladly gave their lives to make sure that we have the Word of God in our language to read and enjoy.

Then I think of intrepid explorers and adventurers like Tischendorf and other who found manuscripts hidden for centuries in obscure desert monasteries

I see the hand of God working in unseen ways to make sure that we can go into a bookstore and choose from hundreds of Bibles in any language.

Here's a passage from a book that I own:

From “The Books and the Parchments” by F.F. Bruce pg. 180:

Perhaps we can appreciate how wealthy the New Testament is in manuscript attestation if we compare the textual material for other ancient historical works. For Caesar’s Gallic War (composed between 58 and 50 BC) there are several extant MSS but only nine or ten are good, and the oldest is some 900 years later than Caesar’s day. Of the 142 books of the Roman history of Livy (59 BC – AD 17), only 35 survive; these are known to us from not more than 20 MSS of any consequence, only one of which, and that containing fragments of Books III-VI, is as old as the fourth century. Of the fourteen books of the Histories of Tacitus (c. AD 100) only four and a half survive; of the sixteen books of his Annals, ten survive in full and two in part. The text of these extant portions of his two great historical works depends entirely on two MSS, one of the ninth century and one of the eleventh. The extant MSS of his minor works all descend from a codex of the tenth century. The History of Thucydidies (c. 460-400 BC) is known to us from 8 MSS, the earliest belonging to c. AD 900, and a few papyrus scraps, belonging to about the beginning of the Christian era. The same is true of the History of Herodotus (c. 488-428BC). Yet no classical scholar would listen to an argument that the authenticity of Herodotus or Thucydides is in doubt because the earliest MSS of their works which are of any use to us are over 1300 years later than the originals.

So when we are considering the textual evidence for the Biblical writing, we should ask what kind and amount of evidence we might reasonably expect, having regard to other ancient writings of comparable date…

But the textual evidence for the New Testament is abundant beyond all comparison with these other works. The number of extant mss of all or part of the Greek NT runs to about 5000.

Here’s something that I never got an answer to in TWI:

If soul = breath-life and that ceases when a person dies

If body returns to dust and to its constituent molecules

If spirit returns to God but only people born again have spirit

What “part” of natural man gets judged?

1 Thess 3:13-14“I would not have you ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep … them that sleep in Jesus.”

What about the others, the un-born-again? They’re the ones who ask the question – the ones who really need to know! How are they to be answered?

Romans 2:14-16

14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: 15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience F11 also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;) 16 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.

2 Timothy 4:1

1 I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;

Why would it be necessary to judge something that doesn’t exist anyway (body, soul)?

Or is this just trying to fathom the mind of God (the automobile trying to explain Ford)?

Hi Twinky,

Have you seen the spirit, soul and body thread in the doctrinal section? It may have got off on a kind of tangent discussion about the part the mind plays in receiving revelation.

But the point you bring up here is a perfect reason to consider that every man is really a three-part being, spirit (of man), soul (the intellect and emotions) and body (well, you know). Every man is created in the image of God, spirit. The un-born again man has an unregenerate spirit which still has a hunger to know its Creator. When the Holy Spirit comes into the spirit of man when he's born-again then the man becomes spiritually alive. It's the spirit of man that has eternal life and is judged at the judgment seat.

In hope, trying to be a truly nice person,

Kit, It there's one thing that shines through in all your posts and replies that I have read, it's that you are a genuinely nice and thoughtful person. This little corner cafe is better because you're here. I don't know you but you can really see your genuineness and compassion for others here. Thanks for being here.

Hey K2000, I pm'd you back. I wasn't a wow in Baltimore, but in DC. We weren't allowed to cross the borders of DC without special permission, and this was one of three times that year that I remember we were allowed to leave.

More on that later...gotta get back to work.

Hi Tonto, Sorry to resurrect an old thread but since I'm new to GS cafe I'm doing some "research" in the older threads. This WOW handbook brought back some old memories. I was "WOW" in Richmond, VA that year. Those guys really do look like little Caspers or teeth. Yes, I remember pouring over that handbook looking for wisdom... They were perky little ghosts weren't they?

I remember going to DC during the Joyful Noise concert in DC during the bicenntenial, seeing Ted Ferrell sing "The White House across the Street" or whatever the name of the song was. It was a fun trip and we actually got to do some sightseeing. Were you there?

Thank you Ex and Kit.

I have debated whether or not to post the following link. My decision (as I often say) is obvious. It is a link to my poetry archive. The archive is in process and always under construction.

http://www.poetrypages.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=50569

Thank you'ins again.

Cheers!

Wow Bagpipes. Thanks so much for sharing the link. Your life story made me cry. You are amazing and talented. I didn't read all the poems yet but I'll definitely go back and read and re-read them. Just wanted to tell you how much I appreciated your talent and willingness to share it.

Do you play the bagpipes? My 15 year old son is learning to play them.

Dear Wrdsandwks,

Please except my apology for putting a damper on your thread!

It just dredged up unfortunate test taking memories for me. I am kind of idealistic and worked hard and long in school and was proud of my accomplishments; partiocularily under the pressures I had then. I hated studing all night to be tricked in the morning for some irrational concept of a testing method!

Carry on and have fun All...I'm sorry sorry sorry! :(

Hey RG, I don't think you need to apologize at all, but thanks I thought you had a good observation, and I can totally relate to the test taking thing, I still have nightmares sometimes that I'm in a final exam and have no idea what the test is about or how to answer any of the questions.

Simon... how can you BE so f***ing funny!? Do you have baloney in your shoes or something?

I'd like to put the 9th Corps back on top but I'm not sure if I could or should jump into this conversation. So how's the weather?

Congratulations, you're not a heretic.

I agree with you Belle they were trick questions with no real way to answer them entirely right

Well at least you passed. I agree, I answered some of the questions halfway between agree and disagree because I needed a third answer for, "Huh?" or at least "I don't know" but I doubt that was the "right" answer. But then again, who made them the official keeper of right answers? Like you said, it was just for fun.

try your public library.

Thanks for the suggestion. I was planning to but your suggestion prompted me to get online and reserve it.

I'm wondering if anyone has read this book.

Any opinions out there? Any thoughts on the NT canon?

-JJ

-----------------------

Here's the full info. It's online at Amazon with 283 reviews.

"Misquoting Jesus: The Story Behind Who Changed the Bible and Why" by Bart D. Ehrman

I had the book in my cart yesterday at Costco but I couldn't bring myself to plunk down the money for it so I put it back. I would like to read it, just don't want to pay money for it.

I have studied the history of the NT canon and I think it's amazing how God protected not just the canon but preserved the manuscripts through the centuries.

Can't say much more since I haven't read the book but when I do I'll get back to you...

BTW, what's "The Eucharist"

It's Holy Communion

What if the spirit of man and the spirit of God got together and became one?

Wouldn't it happen 'in the air'? That's in us and around us?

Would that be manifesting the Spirit?

I think you're exactly right. I Corinthians 6:17 "But he that is joined to the Lord is one spirit" vs 16 says, "What, know ye not that he which is joined to a harlot is one body? for two, shall be one flesh" "But he that is joined to the Lord is one spirit. Spirit (of God, Holy Spirit) joins with spirit (of man) to become one spirit.

The mind is certainly involved because this is where it all happens.

Transformed into-is not just a change of mind but a total change that keeps going.

Most want 'it' to happen outside of themselves. But it involves each person personally and uniquely.

I don't think the joining happens in the mind, it happens in the spirit, spirit to spirit. But I think I see what you're saying about being transformed by the renewing of the mind.

Wrds

I am not sure but I think it is hard to untangle the old teaching I have (corps and other crap) that if I am "in the spirit"and my mind is seperate so-to-speak somehow I am being operated rather that retaining my will. I see you are not saying that -- but I wonder if old teachings of that nature have people unable to see what you are saying.

Good point, I hadn't thought about that. VP put a lot of fear in people about the Spirit. Probably if people had really started walking by the spirit in TWI they would've flushed out the evil and sin and shut down VP's lust devils.

Another benefit, IMO, of not trying to make power come from my mind is that it frees me to use my mind for what it was meant for, thinking, reasoning, learning, growing intellectually. I’m no longer under the bondage of whatever VP said about putting away other reading materials for the next 3 months (which turned into thirteen years). I want to think deeply and to write clearly. In order to do this I need to read, and not just the Bible. I’ve put myself on a course of study of reading or re-reading the classics, and the Great Books of our Civilization (recently read Aristotle, Kant, Aeschylus, Herodotus, Thucydides, Mill , studying Latin, studying Physics, and getting back into my Greek and Hebrew studies (trying to find time to get back into reading classical Greek).

My Bible study is alive, I’m studying Hebrews. My mind is being fed on great books. I started a blog. I’m not trying to brag, I just want to say that I enjoy thinking and developing my mind. Why are many Christians, especially Charismatic Christians, anti-intellectual? I for one think we need more thinkers to address our culture. I intend to use everything God has given me, including my mind, for His glory and to advance His kingdom.

Here are some of my thoughts on the subject at hand. This teaching on the born again spirit, I believe, begins to unravel the lack of power and spiritual frustration experienced by many, at least it did for me. How so? One of the most insidious doctrinal teachings, I believe is that “the renewed mind is the KEY to POWER.” There is no power in the mind.

II Kings 6:14-17

…and they came by night and surrounded the city.

And when the servant of the man of God arose early and went out, there was an army, surrounding the city with houses, and chariots. And his servant said to him, “Alas, my master! What shall we do?”

So he answered, “Do not fear, for those who are with us are more than those who are with them.”

And Elisha prayed, and said, “Lord, I pray, open his eyes that he may see.” Then the Lord opened the eyes of the young man, and he saw. And behold, the mountain was full of horses and chariots of fire all around Elisha.

There is an invisible realm all around us. The spiritual realm is more real than the physical because it is eternal. All the real things in life are in the Spirit. And I cannot think my way there! I can’t believe real hard with my mind and see it. So how do I get there? My mind is powerless. (And which of you, by taking thought, can add one cubit to his stature? Luke 12:25)

The real me is the spirit. (For what man knows the things of a man, if not the spirit of man in him? )

I am not my body or my mind or my emotions. The real me, the me that hungers to know God and to be intimate (spirit to spirit, I Corinthians 6:17- “But he that is joined unto the Lord is one spirit.”) with Him is my inward man, the hidden man of the heart.

My mind is like a computer that I use to process thoughts and to store memories, my emotions are to serve the real me. My body is the house I live in, not the real me (Contrary to the constant message we receive from the entertainment industry). When I forget this and focus on my body as the master, or my intellect, or let my emotions rule, then I get in trouble and am powerless. But when my body and soul are subject to the spirit man in me, under the Lordship of the Holy Spirit, then I have life, peace and power.

Don’t know all there is to know about it. Can’t say exactly what happened when I was born-again. But I know that God graciously sent His Spirit and regenerated my spirit and filled it full of the Holy Spirit. And my spirit man came alive, dead to sin but alive unto God, quickened by the spirit of life in Christ Jesus.

When I go to minister healing, or am led by the Spirit to prophesy, I can’t look into my mind (or memory) to find the words to speak, or speak from some emotional basis. If I’m led by my intellect the words will be cold, empty and lifeless, if by my emotions they will not be pure and will cause hurt. (CES possibly?) But the words that come from the spirit are pure words, they flow from the throne of God out of the belly and are rivers of living water that refresh and heal.

When I learned this and stopped trying to make “believing” come from my mind (gee, maybe that’s where “make-believe” comes from) then when I laid hands to minister healing, sometimes I would get a picture, a vision from the Spirit, of the cause of the problem and would speak to it. )

Other times, when praying a picture would come, not to my mind but to my spirit, to give information that I don’t have access to in any other way. I’ve seen angels in this way. These are visions like the Bible talks about. We received power after that the Holy Spirit came. I for one am very thankful to God to have tasted and seen just the small bit that I have of the powers of the world to come. And I’m hungry for more…

This happened when I stopped trying to make power come from my mind and realized that I really could be “strengthened with might by His spirit in the inner man” Eph 3:16.

I've described my post way spiritual journey as my long, slow slide into orthodoxy. Half-joking, of course.

That would describe me too, twenty years out of TWI and God is gracious and answers every question and heals every hurt. Not that I know all the answers or understand the Trinity and its ins and outs. But I figure, God knows who He is and He reveals Himself to me through His Word and the Holy Spirit.

I once heard a preacher in a "real" church say that everyone he knows that spends all their time trying to understand the Trinity is unhappy. I don't know if that was true or not but it spoke to me at the time. I stopped trying to read and research systematic theology and just started reading the Bible again. I think it was somewhere in John 15-17 that I started getting it. I bow before Jesus in abject humility and say, with Thomas, "My Lord and My God."

I was excommunicated in 410 (or was it 451? fahrenheit 451?), so I guess I won't be seeing some of you that survived that purge.

I'm not quite sure if they will have gang bangers in hell, or if that is part of the cultural diversity that will be enjoyed in heaven.

And you thought this was a different topic.

btw, fahrenheit needs to be added to the spell check, or do they use my spell check?

Yeah well, as long as you're not racist and wouldn't mind living in South Central LA you'll be fine...

What a cutie! Thanks for sharing this, you have every right to brag. Nice that he can put his face on something so obviously worth supporting.

My daughter is enrolled in a virtual charter school. It's a great option.

Here's a "fun" little quiz I came across on the web. Anyone who can define all the terms gets a free cup of coffee at the cafe, on me.

I am proud to say that I have shed most, if not all of the TWI teachings and am no longer a heretic. Are you?

Before you take the quiz and to put it in perspective here's a link to the article where I found the quiz:

The Point: Heretics Unite

Okay, I don't want to start WW III. I realize that inquisitions have been started over such things. Try it for fun and if it leads to some useful discussion then great...

Here are my results: There's a link to the quiz at the bottom of the table, try it. You don't have to know the meanings of all the words in the results to answer the questions on the quiz.

Seriously – how are you going to show me that speaking in tongues bypasses the mind? You’ve already lost credibility in my book by not providing scriptural documentation for this idea of the spirit bypassing the mind.

I Corinthians 14:14 For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays, but my understanding is unfruitful.

I have pekes, a whippet and two chow mixes...

Some insurance companies will not insure your home if you have a chow, G. Shepherd, Pit or Rot. Good point.

How many dogs do you have?

I'm a dog-lover too.

We have four (all Jack Russell Terriers, quiet, mellow dogs -- NOT), but anyway, come to find out that the county recently passed a law that limits the number of dogs you can have to 3. We have to hide one of them. To me this is a case of over-regulation and intrusion. No one asked me nor was I aware that such a law was being passed.

So anyway, something else to check on before moving to an area

Where were you during the LA Riots? We were in LA then. Hubby and I were both on the UCLA campus with our then 2 year old son and started seeing people running. It was scary when we heard that mobs were moving in on Westwood.

Thanks

Isn't that the coolest? Even the dentist was shocked. I was not acting like a crazy person -- he was saying you're okay?

So cool huh?

I also told the dentist about the prayer. He is also hubs dentist and knows of the seizures -- I told him about your prayer and what you saw -- he thinks I should tell the neurologist.

Dentist here comes a calm patient! Woooo Wooo

It was GREAT!!!

I mean nothing like you teaching in India, but certainly awesome for me!

Wow Dot! That really is cool. Thanks for sharing it. God is so great to confirm His Word with signs following.

Is there a nerd or a geek test?

nerdtests.com

I got "Low-Rank Nerd".

Very sorry to hear of his death. I knew Ray and his wife Jeanie in the 80s in So. Cal. He was a fine, sweet man. His death is a loss to the kingdom of God. My condolences to his family.

(maybe I misunderstand)

I'm not a muscian myself, but I don't think putting down the people on stage is appropriate. Reason being there's probably a lot of untapped talent on that stage. It's not the people on stage who are reasponsible for the music (well, most are not). I bet under different circumstances they could be a lot more inspiring. (i.e. in a different church) twi has talent for suppressing talent and "creativity" (gasp! he said "create"! )

But still. . .

:)

Nice point, Bolshie (Can I call you that?). I pray that every one of these talented musicians get the opportunity and freedom to release their God-given talents in a godly environment.