wrdsandwrks

Several years ago the Canadian scholar Arthur Custance devoted a study to the question of Gen.1:1-2 entitled "Without Form and Void". The book can be read and downloaded at http://www.custance.org/Library/WFANDV/index.html

Thanks for the link. His writings look really interesting. I looked at the biography posted on his website and he seemed to be a man of integrity and what I would call "biblical honesty". I will definitely be reading his works.

This is a topic of great interest to me, thanks for starting it Bolshevik. It's a subject I've been reading about and studying, but I haven't come to a definite conclusion at this time. Some of my current thoughts:

The bottom line in my thinking is, that God created the heavens and the earth, in the beginning. I guess the big questions are: When was that? and How did He do it? I wasn't there to mark it on my calendar and observe how He did it.

I like Chuck Missler's teachings and books on the subject, especially, The Creator Beyond Time and Space. Interesting to see that the Custance site is hosted by Missler's ministry, Koinonia House.

I recently purchased Genesis and the Big Bang by Gerald Shroeder, He's an orthodox Jewish physicist. Here are some quotes from the book:

"What was for me the most exciting discovery in this search is that the duration and events of the billions of years that, according to cosmologists, have followed the Big Bang and those events of the first six days of Genesis are in fact one and the same. The are identical realisties that have been described in vastly different terms."

"There is just no avoiding the issue. The Bible gives God six days to form mankind from the material produced at the creation. "

"Current cosomology claims, it even proves, that nature took some 15 billion years to accomplish the same thing.

Which understanding is correct?

Both are. Literally. With no allegorical modifications of these two simultaneous, yet different, time periods."

Interesting stuff.

Links:

The Creator Beyond Time and Space

Koinonia House, Chuck Missler's Ministry

Genesis and the Big Bang

but the word in Gen 1:2 doesn't indicate which it should be?( "was" or "became" ?) So it still could be either interpretation?

Right!

…The Hebrew verb haya, used in the beginning of Genesis 1:2, is not followed by the Hebrew preposition la. Only the combination haya + la would render the translation "to become." An example of this combination is found in Genesis 2:7, "Man became a living soul."

End of excerpts

Gen. 19:26 But his wife looked back from behind him, and she became a pillar of salt. Here's the Hebrew verb hayah without the prefixed preposition l.

I'm not arguing here for the gap theory, just that the verb hayah can mean to be or to become, so you can't discount the theory based on the meaning of the verb in Hebrew. ( I should know what I'm talking about, I have a Ph.D. in Semitic languages.)

9th corpse green nametag with pin and two clips for my suit lapel.

Excuse me Mr. Son, but wasn't the 9th Corps nametag white?

As I recall, Moonies met their spouses on their wedding day.

That's what I remember too. I wonder if any of those couples are still together

The point being, that any two believers can make a marriage work. (Sound familiar?)

Actually, I'm not sure what they believed. I actually went to a Moonie indoctrination meeting once. I was a fairly new TWI member and I was in college at the University of New Orleans, sitting in the commons eating, I believe, when this "nice" young woman asked if she could join me at my table. I instantly thought I would "witness" to her, but of course she was "witnessing" to me.

We talked for a while and she invited me to this meeting they were having that afternoon. Shows how gullible I was at that time in my life, but I went on a bus with her and some other moonies to a meeting a hotel in a "seedy" section of town. Thankfully for me they weren't mass murderers

I honestly couldn't make heads or tails of what the presentation was about. Something about "god" being male and female and yada, yada, yada. That's really the only thing I could make sense of from the presentation. Anyway, being a recent PFAL grad and having started reading the Bible daily, I at least knew a little bit about God and the Bible and this just rang completely false.

The other memorable thing about that experience was that although they had provided transportation to the meeting, they weren't interested in providing me a ride home and I was stuck at this crummy hotel without a ride.

If I remember correctly the girl I met and several of her moonie buddies reciprocated and came to twig with me. I remember they were very interested in Doc Vic and suggested setting up a meeting between their Grand Poobah (don't remember his name, was it Sun Yun Moon or something) and mine.

Anyway, that's my moonie experience.

wdsand works, I remember your wedding. I went to the party after you guys were wedded and remember meeting your dad. Great reception and still filled honored you guys would have me there. Oh, was I in the picture?

Hi Fellowshipper, Yes we enjoyed your "fellowship" at our wedding. Thanks for being there. Have to pull out pictures from the reception and see if you're in them.

Gap Theory seems to be based on the changing of one word in Genesis 1:2. ("Became" instead of "was")

I'm not an Aramaic (or whatever language is used in Genesis) scholar so I don't know the answer from that perspective.

Is changing "was" to "became" a twisted translation of God's Word?

It's Hebrew. The same Hebrew word is used in Genesis 2:7: And the Lord God frmed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul. So it can be translated was or became.

...I think it's illuminating to examine HOW and WHY these group weddings began in the first place...

I am of the opinion that Wierwille used this occasion to make a public demonstration of the "success" of his ministry...it was large and it was visible...and it drew attention to the fact that all those getting married were doing so under the umbrella that he provided.

Could be. I think they said that Dr. started them because all the Corps wanted him to marry them and he didn't have the time to do all those individual weddings.

I also believe that he was copying the Moonies who did it first...only theirs was much larger.

I also thought that the Moonies were different in that the leader arranged all the marriages. Anyone know if that's true?

what if your nametag said, "Donna Reed"? What then?

I guess I would wear it proudly, or what if said, Mary Bailey? That would be cool.

ok, sorry, i just want resurrect this threat because i think it's so durn funny!

i personally still have my old green F12 tag-- why? i have no idea because in every single photo of me in rez (or children's camp) i am never wearing it! not once!

though curiously i did have a nametag for one of my favorite stuffed animals made at ROA one year... yes, i was a major dork.

here's are great poll idea:

what kind of name tag embellisher were you?

-fabric rose stickers?

-any lame stickers?

-rounded corners?

(who else tried to saw off the corners of their tags on the pavement while waiting for the rome city PS bus in the morning? i always got in caught... alas, i was never cool, even in FC. sigh).

-plastic clip converter?

-staffey wood panel tag? c'mon, we know who you are!

(oh, man i was always in envy of those fake wood-paneled veneer staff tags! they were so 70's looking!!)

----uh...what else?

ok, sorry, i just want resurrect this threat because i think it's so durn funny!

i personally still have my old green F12 tag-- why? i have no idea because in every single photo of me in rez (or children's camp) i am never wearing it! not once!

though curiously i did have a nametag for one of my favorite stuffed animals made at ROA one year... yes, i was a major dork.

here's are great poll idea:

what kind of name tag embellisher were you?

-fabric rose stickers?

-any lame stickers?

-rounded corners?

(who else tried to saw off the corners of their tags on the pavement while waiting for the rome city PS bus in the morning? i always got in caught... alas, i was never cool, even in FC. sigh).

-plastic clip converter?

-staffey wood panel tag? c'mon, we know who you are!

(oh, man i was always in envy of those fake wood-paneled veneer staff tags! they were so 70's looking!!)

----uh...what else?

Didn't have any embellishments on mine, just a lot of clothes with tiny holes in them.

I agree.

Me too! Like I said, I wouldn't choose to have that kind of wedding today but it is an experience that we shared with many other Way Corps grads. Some have marriages that lasted, some didn't. Last time I checked, TWI was and still is a cult.

But a lot of people put a lot of loving care into making it a nice day for us and I am very appreciative.

And hey, it was cheap! I think we spent $200.00 on the wedding. When I hear what some people pay to get married I'm glad we didn't go that route. My Dad paid for the reception, I think he was relieved that he didn't have to spend a fortune for the wedding too.

How did the non-TWI parents deal with this set up? Were they okay or freaked out by it?

Chuck's Mom and Grandma came out for the wedding and my Dad gave me away. I think they were all pretty resigned to our life in TWI after all those years, they were very supportive.

Happy Birthday George! Here's to many more and even better!

I wasn't a part of any of the group weddings, but went to some. I would love to hear some of the details of how your day and the weddings were structured.

The reason I ask is that by the time they did the weddings for the 18th corps, they had each couple set up their own individual ceremony. They had to find their own minister, book their own room or space on campus (HQ) and get friends to do their own setup and take-down. I went to several different ceremonies that day. That evening, there was one big reception party under the big top. All the separate wedding cakes were displayed (I can't remember if each couple got to request what they wanted or just the colors/flavors of their cake????) I do remember assisting the gal who always made all the special cakes at HQ (she was so gifted!!!) and watching her work on the beautiful decorations that would go on each cake...

I'm guessing this is quite different than what the early corps had, since I've seen pics of all the couples together with Vic or LCM at the front...

The 9th Corps weddings were at Emporia, around the pond. VP and LCM stood on the gazebo and led the proceedings. All the couples were arranged around the pond with seating for their own guests. Each couple also invited their own minister to stand with them and give the covenant of salt and pray and prophesy (I think). I forget if the vows were said individually or altogether with VP. Then each couple lined up to stand for pictures and I think prayer with VP and LCM on the gazebo. (The day is kind of a blur, since 1. it was so long ago and 2. I was an emotional wreck because I didn't sleep the night before because I was so nervous.)

I remember my dad walking me ( I think from the basement of Wierwille) to our place around the pond and where Chuck and our minister friend (M*rk Lew*s) and best man (D*nnie Lam*) and my maid of honor (Sheil* McD*nald) and others were waiting. It was really windy around the pond and I was trying to keep my hat from blowing off. We were very thankful that it didn't rain. I think after the ceremony we had pictures in Weirwille. We had an individual reception the day before at a local hotel.

i'm glad you're glad

i was one of the others in that group pic

i'm divorced

so sad

Sorry ex! I remember you guys made a really cute couple.

We were married in the Corps wedding 24 years ago tomorrow. It's been a wonderful 24 years for both of us. I thought our wedding was the coolest. Wrdsandwks. I worked photography during your corps weddings. I forget who I photographed but it was really nice. I'm glad I got to do it

Happy Anniversary guys! Sure happy that there were at least some good results from TWI. Here's to many more!

I don't remember either who took our pictures, but they are very nice. Thanks for doing that.

group weddings kind of turn me off

Yeah, I know what you mean, it isn't the kind of wedding I would choose today, but at the time it seemed to be the thing to do.

I remember going to, I think it was Kansas City, with a group of "brides" to go shopping for a wedding dress. Maybe you went too, I can't remember who went, but I had a really hard time finding a dress I liked.

Our 26th Wedding Anniversary is coming up in a week. We were married by VP and LCM on July 16, 1981 2 days after graduating from the 9th Corps. It's just a little strange when I pull out the wedding pictures to show my kids (or anyone else) and they want to know who all the rest of those people are. How many other Grease Spotters were married in Corps weddings?

Any memories you want to share?

I was scared to death. I cried all night the night before the wedding and almost called it off the day of the wedding. I'm glad I didn't!

There were some little rooms up in the top floor of Kenyon, maybe they were practice rooms. A friend and I staked one out and kept our own coffee pot plugged in there all the time. We would run up there when they were serving that awful "stretched" coffee and fill up our mugs with real coffee. After coming back from a block at HQ, couldn't get back into Kenyon so we moved the coffee pot down to the basement of Anderson.

I remember I had a nightmare a few years ago. It was something like this: I woke up and found myself at ROA. Craig was there and he was making us take a Corps assignment again. I woke up in a cold sweat and with great relief realized it was only a dream.

Pretty sure the only way I would go back there, even to visit, would be in a nightmare.

I recently came across this article on the subject:

What Language(s) Did Jesus Speak and Why Does It Matter?

What Language(s) Did Jesus Speak and Why Does It Matter?

He also concludes that Jesus most probably spoke at least some Greek. He would probably have needed to speak Greek with Pontius Pilate as recorded in John 18 and with the Roman Centurion in Matthew 8:5-13.

This thread reminded me that I wrote an article for the Way Magazine (remember the GMiR, research insert?) back around 1983 or so, I think the title of it was something like, "An Aramaic Approach to Paul's Epistles". I was studying Aramaic at the time at UCLA so I could "prove" VPs claims that the NT was originally written in Aramaic. Oh boy, those were the days.

whatsuptwi wrote

I've heard that churches are also using "The Secret" materials to teach their congregations, also.

Actually my church devoted two mid-week services to teachings about the errors of "The Secret". I was very interested to hear what was taught but I wasn't able to make the 1st week's teaching. I've come to the conclusion through the years since leaving TWI that "the law of believing" is one of the most hurtful of TWI's doctrinal teachings. I got so frustrated and disappointed through the years trying to make my mind bring forth spiritual results. There is no power in the mind! If someone does get power by "thinking" it without acknowledging God as the source of the power and submitting and desiring the will of God over one's own will, it has to be demonic.

Here are some of my notes from the teaching by John Huntzinger at The Church on the Way (North Campus in Santa Clarita, CA) on 6/26/2007. (My thoughts and observations are in parentheses. Quotes from the book are in quotes.)

The Law of Attraction - the thoughts we think will bring those things into my life.

1st he summarized what he covered the previous week on thoughts and confession:

The Bible says to "think on things that are noble"

Is 55 - My thoughts are higher than yours.

Phil 2 - Have this mind in you which was also in Christ Jesus

Be open to the ministry of the Holy Spirit

The Secret - "We are eternal energy - God in a physical body", "You are all power", "You are the Creator. You create your own life."

"I am abundant, I am happy" (He read a whole bunch of I am statements that you're supposed to repeat to yourself)

In contrast Jesus had seven "I am" statements in the gospel of John:

I am the bread of life.

I am the light of the world.

Before Abraham was I am.

I am the good shepherd.

I am the resurrection and the life.

I am the Way, the Truth and the Life.

I am the true vine.

Asking and Receiving

"Asking is the first step in the creative process." (My question at this point is, “Whom are you supposed to ask?” You would think that if you're going to ask, there has to be a person that is the object of the question, apparently not)

"Asking is like picking out what you want from a catalog."

"1st step - be specific about what you want." (Classic blue book)

Receiving - "You need to have a good feeling. The feeling of believing, claim it by feeling and believing. Ask once, all you have to do is feel good about it - tune in to the feel good frequency. Whatever makes you feel good is right for you."

Contrast this "feel good frequency" with the life of Paul: II Corinthians 11:24-27 "From the Jews five times I received forty stripes minus one. Three times I was beaten with rods; once I was stoned; three times I was shipwrecked; a night and a day I have been in the deep; in journeys often, in perils of waters, in perils of robbers, in perils of my own countrymen, in perils of the Gentiles, in perils in the city, in perils in the wilderness, in perils in the sea, in perils among false brethren; in weariness and toil; in sleeplessness often; in hunger and thirst, in fastings often, in cold and nakedness."

(Doesn't sound like Paul was tapped in to the "feel good frequency" at all.)

Asking and receiving from a Biblical point of view is very different from this. Matthew 7:7 "Ask and it will be given you." In the context, Jesus was teaching his disciples how to pray. Pray for the kingdom to come and for "His will" to be done. Ask for the things needed to carry out His kingdom and His will, not whatever "makes you feel good."

Love: "To attract the things we love we must feel love. As you feel love praise that presence."

Knowing the truth about The Secret takes the pressure off. We don't have to create the world we live in by our thoughts.

Good topic Danny! I've been thinking about it for a few days trying to observe how much and what I pray during the day. I try to pray all the time. I'm constantly "checking in" with heaven or at least that's what I want to do all day.

I pray in tongues, but mostly I just talk to God. I ask questions like "What should I do?", "Where is it, Lord"?, "Lord, please bless them.", "Please God", or if I've done something that I need to repent for: "I'm sorry Lord, please forgive me."

I'll often have a sentence of praise that I hum under my breath, singing songs of praise that come from my spirit or songs I heard in church or CDs.

When I'm alone in my car or at home, I'll speak in tongues out loud. I notice that my tongue changes depending on the type of prayer needed, and sometimes I'll be led into "groaning and travailings."

I just want to stay connected to God.

Recently I started praying the Lord's prayer when I wake up and at times during the day. If this is how Jesus taught his disciples to pray and I want to be his disciple then I should pray the way he taught.

I picked mine for several reasons. It's Donna Reed as Mary Bailey in "It's a Wonderful Life", one of my all-time favorite movies. I love the message of the movie. It's the kind of encouraging movie that was needed after the nation went through WWII. I relate to Mary Bailey because I think we both married the right man.

Happy Birthday Ex-Cath! It's so nice to send a birthday greeting to someone special like you!

Happy Birthday Oak!

We're now officially the same age. Hope it's a great year for you and yours!

Happy Belated birthday Dooj! Hope it was great and that the coming year is the best ever!

Congratulations on the sale of your paintings too!

I just signed up for a class

really... I said a class

from a group called

really...On The Way

The course is called Cleansing Stream

Does anyone have any experience with this? or knowledge about this?

Maybe it has been discussed already and I missed it

Hi Imagine,

I just ran across this post and even though it may too late to answer, I'll jump in with what I know. I'm curious if you finished the class and how it went?

I've never personally taken the class but I have several friends who have. I know one married couple that went to training to implement in their home church and a single woman friend who I can say definitely changed for the better after taking the class. She had some issues resolved that had been bothering her since her childhood. Everyone I know who has taken it has benefitted from it. I've looked through the syllabus and found it to be biblically based.

The Church on the Way recently opened a "north" campus close to where we live. It opened on May 1 and we've been attending it regularly since then. Seems to be a great church. We were attending another church, but it's about 40 miles from where we live and we were looking for something closer. Jack Hayford is a great pastor. He's been a great influence for good for many years in the Los Angeles area.

My observation is that you can find someone on the internet who will speak against anyone who preaches or teaches the Bible, so I'm not surprised that you can find someone who's against Jack Hayford and The Church on the Way.