Larry N Moore

:) Ok, Mr. Squirrel -- tell me how you define the terms prophet; prophesy; and revelation. And then tell me how you arrived at those definitions.

I understood your point. What is a "prophet"? And where is it written that prophets can't get something wrong? I understand how easily it is to forget what you were taught concerning revelation as it relates to prophesy. <snip> The court of public opinion can easily condemn or acquit a person. Your opinion carries no more weight than mine does. Other than with those who believe your opinions are facts. Of course. Why would you be unsatisfied? Of course you don't. Should I be shocked? :) Wolf, I'll leave it up to the readers (both participants and lurkers) to discern the relevance. If you see none, then so be it. I haven't got the time to go wading back through posts to accommodate you. Perhaps Sudo will though. :)

Fair enuf. Even telling my story brings a tear to my eyes. But . . . oh well . . . it doesn't matter.

That could be true but I wonder how many would have the same ending in their story that I do. That being my mother's choice to toss herself out the window of the top floor of a ten-story apartment building. And being the last one to speak to her and knowing what she planned on doing (minus the specifics).

Fair enuf. I've already composed a response to your earlier post but, have not decided whether I want to post it. I'll briefly respond to this one and it should be evident why. My father died three months before I was born. My mother raised three children on her own until I was about eight yrs old at which point she had found a man she decided to marry. I vividly recall the day, the place, and the words she spoke to me concerning her decision. I was elated! I was finally going to get a Daddy. What I got was a nightmare. Perhaps we share something in common. You could be.

:) Mr. Squirrel you're proving my point and you don't even realize it. You have two sets of statements: One from a man who is a representative of TWI and one from a man (although I haven't seen any actual statements from him). Seeing how the latter is no longer associated with TWI (and also because he happens to be the son of Mrs. W) you give creditability to his side and dismiss out of hand anything the former would say as pure lies. You find it easier to believe what the latter says because you already have concluded that anything coming out of the mouth of anyone associated with TWI is nothing but lies. Now I could share with you an experience I had to show you that even a family member is capable of lying and causing other members of that family much grief but, again, why would you believe my version of events?

:) Oh, I've read some snippets here and there. I read where someone from TWI wrote an open letter to GS (although the link to that letter doesn't work) concerning the care of Mrs. W and stated the accusations were lies. Of course, seeing how it was a representative of TWI -- naturally we are safe to assume that he was lying -- right? A whole thread discussing the subject of why Mrs. W stayed with VP is just that -- a discussion. A discussion does not a truth make. But a discussion can make a belief that it's true.

:) This is also conjecture. You have no first-hand knowledge of what I'm capable of handling but, because I question your opinions and point out what I consider conjecture (as opposed to verifiable facts) you find it necessary to opine from that that I can't handle information. My dear, it's obvious from this that it's YOU that can't handle having someone challenge your opinions. Again, conjecture. You have no first-hand knowledge of what "truth" I've been exposed to and my capacity to handle it. "Truth" of the sort that most people having to face would devastate their lives. I faced it; accepted it for what it was; and came out on the other side victorious. And I thank God for walking me through that valley of the shadow of death. I label rumors -- rumors. I label hearsay -- hearsay. I label facts -- facts. And finally I label conjectures people make from facts -- conjectures. Sorry, if that bothers you and I would say -- You'll get over it. -- but, that would just be a conjectural statement on my part. Sure it doesn't. But the opposite is also true. Even if I couldn't handle the information it doesn't mean the information is true. :) I don't concern myself with convincing anyone. That's way too frustrating of a mental exercise. It's much more peaceable to just present my thoughts and opinions and leave it up to the individual to convince themselves. Now here's my point that you missed previously: If I were to share with you all of my life's experiences (even those during my tenure with TWI) why should you believe I'm being truthful with you? You don't know me but, even if you did -- unless you walked with me during those times how would you really know I was telling you the truth? People are capable of getting to the point of believing their own lies. Of convincing themselves that what they think is actually the truth. It's a survival instinct. Bottom line -- I wouldn't expect you to believe me -- why do you expect me to believe you? :) Well, darling, you don't strike me as the "big bad wolf" capable of huffing and puffing and blowing my house down. Where you see little itsy pebbles, I see rocks. But, if you want to keep blowing away -- blow away. I don't mind the breeze.

Of course that's what you would think. What else would explain why Mrs. W stayed with him and TWI until her death. More conjecture. I love it! I take it you have first-hand knowledge that she was miserable. I know. It's much easier to blame other people then to take personal responsibility. And people who know the Bible would also know that such behavior is evil. I see only two choices a person seeing such evil can make. Give in to the evil or stand against it. Would you like to blame other people for the choice you made? Where is obedience to God in any of this? Like Peter said: Are we to obey men, rather than God judge ye? Well, here's the problem. I had the same foundation and so-called "faulty tools" at my disposal that you had. And with those tools at my disposal I'm able to discern truth from error. How is it possible that I could see that threesomes is wrong and yet others having the same "faulty tools" are unable to see it? Well, God will decide that on Judgment Day. Has He told you something He hasn't told me? :) I know what the scriptures say but, what I don't know is what you say is true. I'm sure you believe it is and that's fine. Some people don't believe God exists and have good reasons for their unbelief. I only have my own personal experience to go by and my experience says -- God exists. I don't expect you to believe me just because of my personal experience. Why would you expect me to believe your personal experience? Sometimes. Sure. BTW Abi -- I really liked your response above this.

Of course you can't. That would make God evil. That can't be true, so who should we blame? I know -- let's blame other people. Hmm . . . are you sure you're not leaving anyone else out. How 'bout Mrs. Wierwille. Either she was as blind as a bat or just as evil as VP and Geer for not exposing them for what they were. Or maybe she loved VP more than she loved God. Sheesh! I'll tell ya what. I remember hearing a grad of the (new and improved version) of the Advance Class say: "There's nothing wrong with pornography." In response I told her: "If that is what you're being taught in the new Advance class, I want no part of it." Now, I can't say for sure that's what was being taught ('cause I never took it) but if I did sit through it and that's clearly what was being taught guess what -- I would have a decision to make -- Do I want to be a part of a ministry that teaches such garbage? The answer would be -- NO! I find it difficult to believe that anyone would be stupid enuf or too weak to fall for such crap. But then, it was an Advance Class grad I was speaking to. My point is: Where is your head at if you can't see that having threesomes is wrong? Well, I don't know where this doctrine came from. It certainly didn't come from the Word I knew. If people weren't able to separate truth from error, perhaps they needed to spend more time studying the Bible. Ok. Well, Paul had the same problem. All Asia Minor were led away from his doctrine also. Maybe his "thorn in the flesh" was sexual perversion afterall contrary to what VP said in PFAL.

No. I am not involved with ANY Christian organization/denomination.

George, George, George. *sigh* I wonder what your response would be if I were to say: "I get so tired of this (endless bashing of TWI). Would it be: "If you don't like it -- take a hike." Oh, I don't know. Why don't you start a thread discussing them and I'll see if I can come up with anything. ;) Nice rant. It's not a requirement. I take it you didn't like my response to your "honest" question. Btw -- What do you consider a dishonest question to be?

That it is! That it is, indeed. First off, my dear lady, let me commend you for one of your finest pieces of articulation. You are truly a smart an intelligent woman. I'm in no hurry. Patience is a virtue and I've had plenty of experience to develop it. And if by chance John never responds to my question I've also plenty of experience letting go of those things I have no control over. But thanks anyways, for the suggestion.

This is not true another spot. Not if the Bible is God's revealed word and will. You are aware of the verse concerning the secret things belonging to God but those that are revealed belong to us.? If there is no person on this forum that can say one way or another that God hasn't led people to TWI then I would caution them about denigrating TWI. It could be that God is using TWI to lead people to Himself and if you oppose it, you're opposing the will of God. Am I to believe that God checks in with you and discloses his heart and will to you? His purposes? If I slapped God in the face then I will have to answer to Him for doing so. Just like you will. I'm starting to wonder if you care . . . .

You just don't get it, do you? John is conjecturing and you ignore it. But if I do the same you condemn it. John has been invited to answer a question. If he chooses to ignore it -- so be it. If nothing else I'm amused at your attempts to defend him.

Let me re-quote John for you. Pay particular attention to the word I highlight in red. Next time you want to give a sermon on conjecture save it for your idol John. ;)

I'm aware of that. I have read his response to a question of his (perceived) obsession with TWI. I'm aware of those verses. Never said it was. I'll try to give you an honest answer. This is ignoring and/or focusing on everything that's wrong with TWI. Iow -- you've concluded that nothing good can come out of TWI and therefore people should be warned against them. We've been over this before - If God is leading people to TWI then either God sees some redeeming qualities and purpose for TWI or God is evil. Seems to me that Paw gets most of the glory. I don't know how many times I've heard/read people praise him for GS. I'm assuming you're referring to GS because I'm unaware of John having a forum. According to others John's works are of the Devil. I guess it's a toss-up. Yes, I know there are many roads to Chicago. :)

Abi, let me first say I appreciate your candor. Abi, correct me if I'm wrong but, are you saying John is justified in what he's doing because you have been helped as a result of it? It doesn't. Are the words highlighted in red yours? I'll keep that in mind. Well, part of the attack on VPW is/was how he was glorified/praised and put on a pedestal. If you want to go by numbers -- meaning the number of people who have been helped -- I think VPW captured that "crown" hands down. If you want to go by the number of people who have been hurt I think he captured that "crown" also. Buttttttt . . . . How can you condemn him for the number of people he hurt but, not praise him for the number of people he helped? I question the principle of praising people period. If it's God that is working in them both to do and to will of His good pleasure then they are just a conduit for God. Whenever we forget that we construct another idol to worship. Idols are not only made of stone. Now, that is not to say that we should not be thankful to people and the work they do. Oh, I see. You lack self-control. Obviously, you don't see how YOU'RE trying to bully me. *sigh* Well, since you've slapped a label on me let me live up to that label by saying: You can stick that crap up your a$$.

Obviously you are offended that I would have the audacity to even ask John such a question. You understand very little about the ministry of Jesus -- obviously. *sigh* Rascal, I suggest you follow through on what you previously decided. Put me on ignore. Obviously you're too emotionally delicate to handle my comments and questions.

Abi, correct me if I'm wrong but, are you saying John is justified in what he's doing because you have been helped as a result of it? It doesn't. I'm not. I'm not offended. The questions I have are: Does this glorify God? Who gets the praise?

Sometimes people murder someone because they consider it "the right thing" to do and don't expect to be rewarded for it. And probably don't expect to be judged for it either.

John, when you stand before God on "Judgment Day" what reward do you think you'll receive for your crusade against VPW and TWI?

Thanks Oakspear. Even though you're not an atheist I thought your response was the sort I was looking for -- more detailed. Contrary to what some might think I have no hidden agenda to chastise atheists for participating in a religious discussion. I think your point in #3 is exactly what I was after -- I also like to know what makes people tick. I don't recall asking any of the atheists I've interacted with, on discussion boards, this sort of question before. I'm not sure who at GS is an atheist -- other than a couple -- and even if all the resident atheists here introduced themselves to me herein I'd probably forget they were an atheist in about a week.

Yes, but I wasn't referring to atheists asking questions but rather actively participating in the discussion and voicing their opinions on the subject. In one of the examples I cited what difference does it make to them whether two or four died with Jesus? Most of them don't even believe Jesus existed. So the question is moot.

Well, that's one way of looking at it. But what I was getting at is -- I'm sure you've believed something to be true only to later discover it wasn't. Did discovering that, really change the way you live your life (for Jesus)? Does accuracy on such issues (as you're presenting here) make or break you?