Larry N Moore

Are you so sure? I might find some of your ways of living to be inappropriate (and likewise you might find mine are so).

I may be mistaken but, I think what John was referring to was the man's healing being a beautiful thing.

That's NOT what John said the man did. If we're going to talk about inappropriate behavior at least get the facts correct.

Although I agree with your rules of etiquette raf, like I said in my post above -- we all say and do things that are inappropriate. Doing something innocently (without thinking) doesn't make it less inappropriate but, I wouldn't judge the man too harshly unless you have never said or done something (without thinking) inappropriate yourself.

John, or Jean (you two give the "one flesh" concept meaning :)) I must admit that I've been somewhat puzzled by your sharing of the story of the 70 yr old man. Giving you the benefit of a doubt I thought maybe you just poorly phrased what transpired. In the initial post you said: Can you see how one could conclude that the man placed her hand on his genitals? Although I can likewise see how placing her hand in the general vicinity could draw her attention to the obvious erection. I can accept this. We all do and say things without thinking. But it's not unreasonable to think this was inappropriate behavior. I think you realize this also or else you wouldn't have said -- "without thinking". I wonder -- Would you think it a bit odd if the man took another man's hand and did the same? I'm not trying to be critical (judgmental) but I must admit I can see how people might find such behavior inappropriate.

I revised my post giving another link on this subject Abi. The world is a changing -- isn't it? :)

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/11414223/ I'm sure I can find other examples. P.S. Here's another one. http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/05275/580618.stm Schaffer said he is not sure why he lost his job. He was told to look at his student evaluations, but he said they were mostly positive. One unidentified female student, however, blasted his class, he said, saying he "shows naked pictures and videos" and assigned papers that were only an excuse to delve into students' personal lives. Schaffer said he did show such material and talked about sexually transmitted diseases and any sexual subject a student wanted to discuss. I may be wrong but, if I recall there was a warning given out that CFS contained graphic sexual material in it.

Abi, would you not find in some college courses graphic depictions of sexual behavior? I'm just asking -- I've never been to college.

Larry looks around to see if Dooj is responding. You should have said so in the first place. The word isn't typically understood in a "purist" sense.

If I remember correctly -- VP felt very uncomfortable showing some of the photos (I don't remember any videos). At least my impression was that he was. I can understand the exposure being offensive to some. It reminds me of Jesus healing of the lepers. Yucky! I wonder how many followers felt uncomfortable being around Jesus after he touched a leper?

I wouldn't call Dooj's journey a selfish one. And if you paid attention a lot of time transpired between her mother's death and waking up. Hardly a few minutes. P.S. Oops! I guess I take longer than you dooj in composing a response. :)

I'm doing ok. No need to feel sorry. If I recall, the teaching was Jesus was absent IN THE FLESH. Not difficult at all if his words are preserved thus . . . . . . VP was correct. We still have the words and acts of Jesus that makes it possible to follow Jesus. Unless Jesus has made a personal (physical) appearance to you I don't see how it would be possible for you to follow him without the Written Word. You're welcome. So, how is your preaching of the Gospel going these days? Have you reconciled very many people to God?

Larry: Very well then. Tell me. Was the man who asked Jesus to heal his son a saint or a sinner? Dmiller: Doesn't matter. Correct. :) It didn't matter to Jesus either. You missed the third *S* -- seeker. Well, both a saint and a sinner could be seeking. I don't think just because one becomes a saint, seeking (answers) stops. Ya know --let me put it on the line here -- OK?? I have NO beef with you, and if that's cool with you, it cetainly is with me. Oh, I never felt you had a beef with me. Even if you did I would be cool with that. It might be legit. We're cool. You bring up points from your perspective, as I do mine. Of course. I don't want to fight. I'm a lover, not a fighter. ;) Perhaps we can each offer points of view, that each of us can learn from, without being antagonistic. We can. However, antagonism isn't just defined as hostility. The whole premise of GS is the presentation of an opposing viewpoint. Some people are very passionate about that and having their position challenged can turn passion into anger and anger can lead to hostility. Perhaps this thread will end up in Doctrinal (given how it is going), Oh, in my opinion, many of the threads in this particular forum should be in the doctrinal one. Anytime you talk about beliefs (how erroneous they were/are) how can it not be a doctrinal matter? but if it does, I'm prepared to be civil to you, as you present your viewpoints. Ok. So -- I just found myself being antagonistic -- and for that I apologize. Ok. I'd like to redress that situation, and maybe learn something from the *other side*. What say ye??? Ok. (Your question WAS a good one!!) ;) Just popped into my head. ;)

Very well then. Tell me. Was the man who asked Jesus to heal his son a saint or a sinner?

You bet ya! The only way we would really know for sure is to compare the doctrine of VP with that of Jesus' concerning healing. I'll give you one verse we could consider: Mark 9:23.

Sure, but what you read isn't always the truth of the matter. How is it that you have so easily forgotten the words of Jesus?

No, I haven't forgotten it. Your version of it doesn't mesh with mine. Well, seeing as this is not the doctrinal forum I am somewhat limited in how I may respond to this but I will say this much -- What you're saying is -- Jesus' doctrine was phony. How long has it been since you ceased being a follower of Jesus? Or were you never a follower?

Oh I don't know -- maybe VP was just tired of living. The last time I saw him that was the impression I got. Maybe he thought suicide wasn't the way to go. I can see how praying for a person who has given up on living may be one of those prayers not being answered.

Gosh Abi. I usually don't do this but I can't help myself --- Well said!

Rascal allow me to ask you a question. Hopefully you will answer it as honestly as I answered one you put to me. Do you believe God can and does heal people? Follow-up question (if the answer to the above is yes). How do you explain why some people don't get healed?

Yes He is! Ah, suppressed breathing? That's the same as not breathing at all. I think (according to the Bible) there was a point where Adam wasn't breathing either. Was it just suppressed breathing also? I mean -- yea he had fully developed lungs and all the hardware was in place but at what point did he actually come to life? Awesome, indeed! Well, yes the lungs are made for air but until it's birth those lungs are non-functioning for the purpose they were designed for. Take away air from our lungs and guess what -- we're dead. Or are we just suppressing our breathing? ;)

:)

FETAL CIRCULATION I. FETAL CIRCULATORY ANATOMY AND REMNANTS AFTER BIRTH (Fig. 29.19, 29.20, pp. 1088-1089 [986-987]) These can be seen on the fetal pig and on the illustrations. The foramen ovale is seen on the illustration only (*). Observe the boldfaced remnant structures on the heart models and torso liver model also. FETAL STRUCTURE REMNANT AFTER BIRTH Umbilical vessels Umbilical arteries (2) Lateral umbilical ligaments Umbilical vein (1) Round ligament of the liver Umbilical cord Umbilicus Bypasses of the lungs Ductus arteriosus Ligamentum arteriosus Foramen ovale* Fossa ovalis Bypass of the liver Ductus venosus Ligamentum venosum II. THE FETAL CIRCULATION A. Placenta (Fig. 29.5, p. 1067 [29.4, p. 965]) Observe the illustrations. The placenta is a vascular organ, genetically part maternal and part fetal. It enables maternal and fetal blood to flow close by one another, separated only by permeable membranes. Maternal and fetal blood does not mix, but the placenta allows for exchange of oxygen and carbon dioxide; the fetal lungs are nonfunctional. It is a source of nutrients to the fetus, and it removes wastes. It provides maternal antibodies to the fetus. In effect, the placenta serves as the lungs, digestive system, kidneys, and immune system of the fetus. It is also a major source of reproductive and other hormones during the pregnancy. B. Fetal blood flow (Fig. 29.19, p.1088 [986]) Trace these pathways on the illustration. 75 1. Oxygenated blood flows from the placenta via the umbilical vein in the umbilical cord. 2. Red blood from the umbilical vein enters the ductus venosus which within the liver joins the inferior vena cava. It mixes with “blue” blood within the vena cava. From this point the blood that oxygenates the fetal tissues is mixed blood. However, the fetal hemoglobin is able to pick up oxygen at a lower P02. 3. The lungs are collapsed and nonfunctional; they receive only enough blood for their own growth. Most of the blood bypasses the lungs in one of two ways: a. The ductus arteriosus is a short, wide artery that connects the pulmonary trunk artery with the aorta. This allows most blood to bypass the lungs, although some blood still enters the right and left pulmonary arteries. There is considerable resistance to blood flow into the lungs because they are collapsed. b. Before birth, the pressure in the right heart is higher than the pressure in the left heart. Because of this, the one-way valve, the foramen ovale, lets blood bypass the lungs by going from the right atrium to the left atrium. 4. Mixed arterial blood flows through the same arteries as in the adult to oxygenate the tissues. Used, “blue” blood leaves via the same veins as in the adult and enters the superior or inferior vena cava. 5. Mixed blood in the internal iliac arteries is sent out the two umbilical arteries through the umbilical cord to the placenta, where it becomes red, oxygenated blood. It also picks up nutrients and releases wastes. 6. The umbilical vein carries red blood from the placenta back to the fetus. C. Birth and the stimuli for the first breath: 1. The sudden cooling as the child is born triggers the "gasp" reflex. 2. Hypoxia and hypercapnia may occur during the birth. 3. The breathing rhythm is immediate or begins after brief delay due to increased hypoxia. Delays of eight minutes are maximum tolerable. 76 D. The first breaths Much extra effort is needed for the first breath. The child can produce more than twice the effort needed. Normal compliance (ease of inflation) is established about 40 minutes after birth. III. CIRCULATORY READJUSTMENTS AFTER BIRTH (Fig. 29.20, p. 1089 [987]) A. Since blood no longer circulates in the placenta, blood volume in the child increases, causing increased pressure in the left ventricle, left atrium, and aorta. B. Pulmonary resistance decreases five times as the lungs expand with air, because the blood vessels are less compressed. Also the extra O2 causes vasodilation within the lungs. This decreases the pulmonary blood pressure, right atrial and right ventricular pressures. C. Foramen ovale closure: This one-way valve between left and right atria closes because due to the increase in left heart pressure and the decrease in right heart pressure as outlined above. (It only allowed right to left blood flow before birth.) This occurs immediately, but it grows closed and becomes the fossa ovalis within months or years (or occasionally not at all). D. Closure of the ductus arteriosus: The smooth muscle wall of the ductus arteriosus constricts due to the higher O2 availability, and closes fully within one to eight days. Within one to four months, it is replaced with fibrous tissue. It persists for life as the ligamentum arteriosus. E. Closure of the ductus venosus: This liver bypass conducts blood from umbilical vein to the inferior vena cava. When umbilical blood flow ceases immediately after birth, portal blood still bypasses the liver via the ductus venosus, until the ductus venosus contracts one to three hours after birth. This forces portal blood through the liver. The cause is unknown. The ductus venosus becomes the ligamentum venosum. F. If it is not immediately cut, the umbilical cord may pulse for a few minutes after the birth but before the placenta detaches from the uterine wall. Even if the cord is not clamped, blood leakage from the cord will stop due to a gel within it that swells upon exposure to air. G. The lack of blood flow to the wall of the umbilical arteries and vein causes fibrosis of them. The arteries become the lateral umbilical ligaments and the vein persists as the round ligament of the liver. 77 Optional notes on the fetal circulation 1. Do you wonder why the fetus’ tissues are nourished with mixed rather than fully oxygenated blood? Here’s why: Only arterial blood is under enough pressure to leave the fetus and return to the placenta to pick up oxygen. If the arterial blood were already fully oxygenated, it could not load any more oxygen. But– only arterial blood nourishes the tissues, as is true after birth; therefore, the fetus gets mixed blood. The fetal hemoglobin compensates for this situation. 2. Patent ductus arteriosus occurs when the ductus arteriosus fails to close after birth. It must be surgically corrected. 3. A septal defect (a “hole in the heart”) occurs when either the interatrial or interventricular septum has a congenital perforation. It may or may not be related to the foramen ovale. 79 Crimes allowing for the death penalty: 1. Premeditated Murder Death Penalty Required Exodus 21:12 14, 22, 23 If men strive, and hurt a woman with child, so that her fruit depart from her, and yet no mischief follow: he shall be surely punished, according as the woman’s husband will lay upon him; and he shall pay as the judges determine. 2. Kidnapping Exodus 21:16; Deuteronomy 24:7 3. Striking or Cursing Parents Exodus 21:15; Leviticus 20:9; Proverbs 20:20; Matthew 15:4; Mark 7:10 4. Magic and Divination Exodus 22:18 5. Bestiality Exodus 22:19; Leviticus 20:15, 16 6. Sacrificing to False Gods Exodus 22:20 7. Profaning the Sabbath Exodus 35:2; Numbers 15:32 36 8. Offering Human Sacrifice Leviticus 20:2 9. Adultery Leviticus 20:10 21; Deuteronomy 22:22 10. Incest Leviticus 20:11, 12, 14 11. Homosexuality Leviticus 20:13 12. Blasphemy Leviticus 24:11 14, 16, 23 13. False Prophecy Deuteronomy 13:1 10 14. Incorrigible Rebelliousness Deuteronomy 17:12; 21:18 21 15. Fornication Deuteronomy 22:20, 21 16. Rape of Betrothed Virgin Deuteronomy 22:23 27

I won't commit myself on a "perhaps." I have my doubts regarding your knowledge and understanding of the terms and you're not doing much to change that opinion. Not that you care, I imagine. ;)

I'm flexible. :)