penworks

Hi again, I thought these blurbs would interest readers at this site. They are from former Way followers who also wrote books about The Way.

In Undertow, Charlene Edge manages to bring to life the inexorable, age-old struggle of light triumphing over darkness, of the search for truth in the misty range of a “false prophet’s” deception which she encountered firsthand as a research assistant in The Way International. While she was promised liberty, she found herself a “servant of corruption.” (2 Peter 2:19). Ms. Edge’s heartfelt and earnest journey will leave you in awe of what the human spirit can conquer when it launches out in the search for truth. Well-written, compelling and inspiring.

— Kristen Skedgell, author of Losing the Way

A tenderly written, intensely personal narrative about being swallowed alive by a cult. Charlene Edge’s encounters with the abusive Victor Paul Wierwille and her firsthand observation of how The Way’s Research Department twisted the Scriptures are enlightening and chilling.

— Karl Kahler, author of The Cult That Snapped: A Journey Into The Way International

Hi everyone and thank you for posting the link to my blog, Rocky.

Undertow is my memoir and I'm happy to say it's nearing publication! Some of you know that I was in the Second Corps (with LCM), held leadership positions with my then-husband (another Second Corps grad that Wierwille ordained), and was invited to be a member the biblical research team at HQ 1984-1986.

My experiences reveal a side of the story about TWI that not many are familiar with. I hope the book adds something helpful to the ongoing conversation about TWI, its roots, the fundamentalism it promotes, its problems, the idealism so many of us had when we joined it, and the broader, disturbing topic of high-control "religious" groups in general.

Here is one promotional blurb from among others that will appear in the book. 

Charlene Edge’s personal story, Undertow, is a wake-up call to moderate Christians (and everyone else) about the dangers of the respectable-looking kind of fundamentalism that conducts Bible study but in reality twists Scripture to produce self-serving doctrines, demands obedience to a cult-of-personality leader, warps believers’ personal identities, and potentially damages members’ long-term welfare. With non-profit status, such cults are here to stay. Read Undertow and be warned.

 ~ Julia Scheeres, author of Jesus Land

Cheers,

Penworks (Charlene L. Edge)

As someone in TWI from 1970-1987, I can say I never heard "mind reading" put that way or taught that way by any Way leader, including VPW.

I never feared or hoped that any Way leader could read my thoughts. In fact, during the time I was preparing my escape from HQ, I was VERY thankful none of them could read my thoughts. 

What I remember being taught was that when a healer laid hands on you to heal you, God would tell them what was wrong with you. As the healer prayed for you aloud, you'd hear the diagnosis then, and the conclusion of the session was the healer saying you were healed in the name of Jesus Christ.

Now, if you ask me today what I make of this mind reading issue, I'll say I believe our thoughts are private. Sometimes, when we are on the same "wavelength" with another person close to us, we may "think the same thing at the same time." But I don't believe that is mind reading. Of course, just because I believe or do not believe something does not make it true or untrue. I must test my ideas against evidence. I can believe the moon is made of cheese but then there's some evidence I must contend with that points to the contrary.

The mind is a mysterious thing ... one of my favorite writers is William James, author of The Variety of Religious Experience. Now THAT'S a mind blowing read!

I didn't have any inside track as to what was going on at the corporate level, especially about anything that ventured into the realm of academia. As I've noted before, one of my biggest disappointments with the FellowLaborer program was the virtual nonexistence of anything resembling scholastic study. I think people out on the field were under the impression we were privy to all sorts of proprietary information. Nothing could be farther from the truth. We lived in a commune, worked a small garden plot, hashed, rehashed and re-rehashed collaterals and SNS teachings, and had endless, mind numbing organizational meetings, butt chewings and more believer's meetings than any one person should ever be subjected to in a lifetime. But, did we do any in-depth study of "The Word" or gain special insight on nuances of the Bible? Nope. Never happened. Oh, I can tell you how to sprout your own Mung Beans, make mayonnaise from scratch or throw together enough familia to feed 50 people for a month, sure. Greek words and Biblical intricacies? Nah, not so much...OK, not at all.

Did you know that VP's primary goal with the Corps was to have a work crew? If you can stomach reading the Passing of the Patriarch, you'll see Ge*r reference VP's comments about that. The manual labor aspect was supposed to be patterned after something called The School of the Prophets, which VPW thought he was re-instituting with the Way Corps. We did more manual labor than Bible study in the Corps.

I think most of us here understand that any Bible study in TWI was really only VP's interpretation, some of which was plagiarized. TWI's basis for "study" starts with the assumption that the Bible is inerrant. That claim was made up by men (long before Wierwille or Bullinger) who, in my opinion, used it to dominate people, not instruct them honestly about what the Bible actually is--an anthology of different writings over centuries by men from different cultures and languages. Ah but I digress. I'll stop now ...

Thanks Penworks - i will eat some humble pie now....about the time you posted the thing on pistis i was working on my post and did not see yours -

so while i was eating breakfast (not humble pie yet) and reflecting on what i just posted i thought i should go back and edit what i said to reflect the issues you and others have talked about while you were in....the point i was trying to make with TLC was that ANY doctrinal issues back then were not known to the general TWI public - even at the campuses.I don't recall any renegades or usurpers spreading mass sedition at the time.

perhaps TLC could elaborate on what he experienced, conversations he had with research staff, etc.

Hey, I get that. Letting the general public know what was really going on in research was NOT going to happen. It would sabotage the money coming in, the adoration of VPW and the acceptance of his authority!

my in-residence training does fall within the time frame you stated -

though i don't recall anyone in my corps or elder corps even hinting at this "known issue" you speak of - and certainly not any of the faculty - nor guest speakers like VP himself, his son Don, LCM, limb coordinators, or anyone else who one would think were tapped in to the latest research - although i wonder how much intellectual honesty could be found in that whole lot of bozos.

..oh yeah i forgot to mention that geeky Greek "scholar" Walter C. - for our corps night teachings old Wally would blather on about the book of Timothy....i remember one "enlightening" session when i got a glimpse into the priorities of TWI "research" - Wally went on and on.... and on.... and on about VP's directives of what he should find in the scriptures - before he even went to some institute for New Testament research in Germany - yeah "research"....i mean with this kind of intellectual straitjacket wrapped around a research staff - i don't see that as being open territory for free-range thinking - know what i mean...perhaps there were encrypted notes passed around about the issues of TWI's doctrine of believing.

i could be wrong on this but i think you "deferring" to DWBH or Penworks and others to prove your point is a..... chicken $hi_t ..... very cowardly way to make your case.

good point, Waysider- i think we're seeing some tough competition here!

See my post above re: pistis.

What interests me is how people can or cannot change, how willing people are (or not) to adapt to a changing situation. Nothing is permanent. Everything changes. This is a fact of life known since the beginning of time.

So, I'm asking Johniam, so what if DWBH wrote in a way that praised VPW in that book, The Living Word Speaks? (I have a copy). That was then. This is now. Over time he changed his views. He woke up. Like many of us here.

So what that I wrote a Way magazine article long ago that encouraged people to study PFAL as if it contained THE WORD OF GOD . That was then. Over time I changed my mind after I gained new information. I woke up. Life is a journey.

Some people change when they learn new information, new facts, have experiences that show them the error of their ways or that something better for them awaits.

I suspect that it is hard for others not to change when new facts and understanding comes to them is because there is some kind of payoff for holding onto the old view. Or they fear what will happen if they change. i.e. they might look bad in other people's eyes.

Let's celebrate the fact we can change, learn, grow and not be ashamed of the process.

Someone recently tried to intimidate me about my upcoming book, saying it seemed I was proud that it took me 17 years to realize I was in the wrong place (TWI) for me. Proud? That seemed odd to me. It's simply a fact of my life that I was in TWI for 17 years. I often state that fact because for outsiders, it indicates I was not a casual believer and may offer some genuine insight on the subject.

So, using an example (citing what DWBH wrote long ago) of what someone said or wrote long ago as a way to discredit what they say today disallows the reality that people can evolve and change. Thank goodness we can. Just sayin'.

Recently Facebook started 2 groups about PFAL, one general and the other about grads reunion. I tried to speak to the administrators but both rejected my requests after reading some of my posts about Way Productions video from 4 years ago and my belonging to denominational church music groups and Organic Church movements and leaders such as Frank Viola, George Barna, Leonard Sweet,, Jon Zens, Milt Rodrieguiez, Neil Cole, etc.

And their rejection of you surprises you?

To me, the epitome of Wierwille's pathologic narcissism is wrapped up in his advanced class teaching on keys to walking in the spirit.

Wouldn't it be fair to characterize those keys as license to do what you want and claim what's really your own "inner voice" giving you that permission and you think it's really God?

If I could put these two sentences in a flashing neon sign, I would. Speaking from experience, this lies at the heart of fanaticism.

I've already stated in a previous post that anyone that was involved in, or that was reasonably close to, the research fellowship at TWI (circa '83-'85) surely was aware that there were unresolved issues around how pistis was being handled and taught in the ministry. (Perhaps you missed that.) At the very least, DWBH or Charlene ought to be able to confirm the reality of at least that much of what I said for you. Maybe there's others here that were aware of it at the time. Otherwise, you probably won't think or take it as anything other than something which uniquely existed in my own head.

(Though it may have started with trying to delineate what the "household of faith" meant or referred to, it necessitated a better handle on - or understanding of - "pistis.")

Did any of you ever wonder what "the household of faith" really was, or was the meaning of it so smooth and polished by the time you heard it that it never crossed your mind (back in the day) to question it?

Yes, the Greek word "pistis" as VPW taught it presented problems, although I don't have the details of why or how at my fingertips. I do remember this issue coming up while I was on the research team 84-86 at HQ. I suggested that perhaps someone in the graduating corps might do a research paper on "pistis" (a paper like that was required to graduate), but I was told no, no, no, that topic is a problem, i.e. certain team members knew "we" could not substantiate what VPW taught about it. Maybe VP "borrowed" his teachings about faith/believing from some other man's book/teachings. He was known for doing that.

Here is what I remember.....

When I arrived at Emporia Campus to attend the 1978 advanced class, I was designated as a Branch Coordinator.

Within 2 hours, the branch coordinators were to have their first meeting to be given our marching orders....

er, instructions. Wierwille and Martindale were at this meeting......and within 20 minutes wierwille referenced

these three 8th corps men and how they'd gone rogue and "had devil spirits."

Yep, ole wierwille gave us HIS version of a situation that had NOTHING to do with us. What the hell was he doing?

Well......1)Do what you're told, 2)Do not stray from twi-doctrine, or 3)You, too, will get possessed. Same ole

intimidation/manipulation confrontation based on FEAR TACTICS.

What were "your kind of people?" Well.....I see them as exemplifying critical thinking.

They WERE doing Biblical RESEARCH to uncover deeper truths and/or expose wierwille's slipshod plagiarism.

Obviously, wierwille was trying to discredit these men and it chapped his a$ to be challenged head-on.

Clearly, veepee was fuming about this and in October, three months later, wrote this long letter to corps

and instructed corps not to tell others. Yet, wierwille had ALREADY violated his own instructions....as

he had already told us advanced class students [branch coordinators].

Well put.

Wierwille had his own idea of what "doing biblical research" meant (including plagiarism, which is stealing), and it was different than how people in academia defined it. A clash was bound to happen. It did. Many times.

In fact, it had happened long before this incident. Other people had left TWI before this because of uncovering VP's plagiarism, narrow-mindedness, etc. etc. I can't cite names due to privacy issues, but I can tell you they exist. Some were in the Corps, some were not.

OK, I'll chime in. Of all the letters I've read, one really stands out. The one dated Oct. 20, 1978. It concerns 3 men who started in residence in the 8th WC, were assigned to do research, and wandered off the reservation. I'll spare you my take on it, but I can't help but wonder...these 3 men really seem like "your kind of people". Their conclusions would fit in fine with most of you. Where are they now? Are any of them here?

The 3 men are Peter Bernegger, John Fanning, and Marty McRae. The letter is 6 pages long. Oh, and it's upside down. I had to invert the monitor of my computer to read it. All the other letters are right side up. I was able to print the letter. I couldn't help comparing this letter with Passing of a Patriarch. The last paragraph of the letter (summary and conclusion, lol) is very telling. After making his case against the men, VP admonishes..."Hide this whole affair in your learning heart and do not speak to others about it, not even Corps. Close the lid and throw the key away."

This was heeded. I never heard anything about this. I remember Peter Bernegger had an article in the way mag about the Christmas star and I always wondered why I never heard his name after that, but as a non corps, I felt as informed as anyone about ministry stuff like that. I never had any hint that something like this had happened.

That situation easily had just as much potential to break up the ministry as POP did, but it was never leaked. POP was definitely leaked. I know that POP was read to somebody in April of 1986. I understand only 12 or so people were intended to hear it, but it was leaked. I went to ROA in 86. 20,000 people there, seemed like fellowship as usual, then less than 1 month after that I was on a date and the girl told me that someone had reproved the BOT. Sounded disturbing. Couple weeks after that there's a meeting. Limb leader was there. Damage control. Confusion. "Everybody" was an expert on what was "really" going on. Ministry was never the same after that.

If someone had leaked the 6 page letter back in 78 the same thing could've happened. Anybody remember the letter? The situation? Just curious.

Yes, I remember that letter. Initially, it frightened me into remaining loyal to TWI. I still have that letter today, as well as many others from VPW, since I was a Second Corps grad (graduated in 1973).

Perhaps if the letter had been more widely known, more people would have left TWI back then, but who knows?

I knew of those three men. I was on the biblical research team at HQ 1984 - 1986. After escaping HQ in 1987, I began the long journey of writing my story. I quote that letter in my memoir: Undertow: My Escape from the Fundamentalism and Cult Control of The Way International.

Target publication date: January 2017.

HERE

Thanks for providing the link!

Good morning,

I would have chimed in earlier but I've been sick. Nothing serious.

For any new visitors to this site, I want to say that DWBH is an extremely important voice on TWI inner workings, big and small. The facts he has that back up his assertions are first-hand experiences. I knew him personally. For one thing, we were both at HQ at a critical time, 1986, when that scathing and disruptive (understatement) so-called Passing of a Patriarch letter was written and read by Chr*s G**r.

My heartfelt suggestion is for visitors (and anyone who has not heard it) is to listen to the GSC radio show on this website titled, Through the Fog. I think it will give you some idea of the evil that occurred.

DWBH mentioned a book I am writing, Undertow, so I want to let you know it is near publication. When it's ready, GSC folks will be one of the first groups to know.

A side note: Yesterday the world lost one of the most important memory keepers and voices on human rights abuse (understatement), one that expressed moral outrage in a way we could embrace... Elie Wiesel. https://www.washingt...omepage%2Fstory

I would like to thank GSC for providing a place where we can express moral outrage over the spiritual, emotional, mental, and sexual abuse perpetrated by "spiritual" leaders we trusted. Hopefully, our voices can make a difference in this world. That's the point, right? To inform and help. To shed light, understanding, and healing. That, by the way, is why I wrote my book.

Cheers,

Penworks, a.k.a. Charlene

By the way, you failed to mention that certain earlier corps were invited to be ordained, but for reasons that might elude others, simply chose not to.

As a woman in the 2nd Corps, I was offered this opportunity but declined it because I was married to a 2nd Corps man who Wierwille had already ordained and that "was good enough for me."

So was VPW the source of these ridiculous salutations? (God Bless in the most powerfully abundantly blessed name that is above all blah blah blah . . . )

"I thank you Dr. Weirwille, for never attaching a single string to my life" February 17, 1981

BAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!

I have many of these in my own files at home in hardcopy, the originals that were mailed to us Corps people. It is highly probable VPW had help writing them, just as he had an assistant, Allis*n Hean*y, write his articles titled, By The Way, that were published in the St. Mary's Evening Leader newspaper during the 1970s and 1980s.

I just discovered that someone hosts a website of TWI information, including letters Victor Paul Wierwille wrote to Way Corps members during the 1970s and 1980s. I received those letters and have kept many of them in my own files.

To read them yourself, visit: https://sites.google.com/site/corpsnewsletters/system/app/pages/subPages?path=/home

Hi, I'm writing this to anyone considering whether to break ties with TWI: please keep reading threads like this at this website.

The Way sub-culture that Skyrider describes is real. It was real for hundreds of us, especially those of us in the Way Corps who gave everything to Wierwille's perverted, narcissistic, dangerous-thinking goal of Word over the world.

During my 17-year experience in TWI, I came to see (especially while on the research team) that there was no "Word" as VPW described it and no realistic way to "move it over" the entire world. That goal was an hallucination that emanated from a sick mind full of dangerous ideas.

Think about it. The Way ministry running the world! VPW's teachings dominating everyone's thoughts? Plagiarized books with VP's name on them for sale in every town? Yikes! The idea that we knew more of "the Word" than anyone else on the planet was very silly indeed. (that's an understatement in case you're wondering).

Besides, who wants to live in a world where everyone thinks and behaves the exact same way? That is the farthest thing from democracy that there is! That's a nightmarish world of science fiction.

So, TWIexit as soon as possible. You'll be glad you did, no matter how difficult exiting might be for you. You can find support here. You can search for resources at places like the International Cultic Studies Association.

Check out some of these videos:

https://www.youtube....1HtMvoa8kRcLcig

Cheers,

Penworks

That quote from the newsletter is more than sad. I knew the author of it long ago at ECU. Seeds of this thinking were planted then. I dare say they were fed and watered by VPW himself. Without the VPW influence, I wonder where JAL would be today? Sad, really sad ...

The surrounding of himself with an armed security detail and a tight entourage was not out of fear as much as it was out of malignant narcissism.

My first summer school in 1971, dictor was everybody's pal. He walked around in shorts and overalls and hung out with his keedz. Lots of pizza and beer or burger nights, dances with secular rock and R&B music. There was no dress code other than Sunday nights and corpse nights (Tuesday's back then). Lots of laughter and music in prep for the first ROA.

But, by the time of my first year in-Rez, it was already changing. As it turned out, I had an affinity for being hailed into dictor's office over the loudspeakers in the courtyard for personal reproof and correction meetings frequently during my first 4 months in the corpse. The first one, I entered his office smoking a cigarette and sat down without asking permission. OMG!....you'd think the world was ending! Dictor screams at me, "Stand up!".

Would you walk into the office of President Nixon smoking a .... cigarette?". I quickly shot back, "I wouldn't wanna be anywhere near old tricky dick's office VP!" I was then ordered at top vein-popping volume, to get the .... outta his sight and never call him "VP" again! Never got around to yelling at me for whatever he called me in for.

But, I began to see that malignant narcissistic delusional grandeur of dictor as the man-o-gawd. Comparing himself to Nixon as worthy of the same care, concern, respect and treatment for himself as the most important man on the Earth.....the greatest Apostle since Paul in the first centur, expositor of the great mystery, whose "specialty" was "the holy spirit field" which he co-opted and blatantNtly plagiarized from J.E. Stiles, B.G. Leonard, E.W. Bullinger, Kenyon, Pillai, Lamsa, Glenn Clark, Rufus Mosely, Starr Daily, Oswald Chambers, Rosalind Rinker, F.F. Bruce, Charles Welch, to name a few of his original researchers.

So, when Dictor had enough $ and "trained personnel", the security team, "Bless Patrol", guns, malpacks etc., took over and the goon squad began in earnest in 1975 under the guise of "spiritual vigilance and CP# 1" against the reprogrammers and the seedboy-led trinitarian denominations which were out to kill him and "the minus-tray of the word" we all stood for. Oh the humanity!......LOL!

Add to the growing malignant paranoid narcissism, alcoholism, neo-Nazi politics and Aryan theology, stir in a little of Nietche's "Ubermensch" and a lot of sexual predation and serial rape, and you've got a lot to protect, eh? Surround yourself with family and corpses and build your kingdom. Grab guys like MacMullan, Quillen, Geer, Wajnberg, and some other psychopathic ex-marines, Green Berets, and general whackos, give 'em guns and "training" and turn them loose. First on the enemies without.....then, more sinisterly, the enemies within. The whole gun/security/bless patrol/goon squad thing was produced not by fear, but rather by a massive malignant paranoid narcissist's vain and self-serving ego trip. Sheesh!

So, to the people who defend VP having bodyguards for self protection, like the Pope has (a Corps grad actually told me this recently when she accused me of being "angry" on one of my website posts) I guess I will refer them to this-here-post. Thanks for spelling this out!

Hi BlueCord,

I'm just chiming in to welcome you to this most rambunctious- in- the- best- way group of people around. Have no doubt. You are on the right track to disassociate yourself with TWI. Life outside is great, we have civil rights here, we can grow and follow our hearts. You can too.

I trust you and your wife can leave without any big uproar. Respect others and they will respect you. That is not to say you agree with them or want to fellowship with them. It means by their behavior you decide it is best for you to go elsewhere. This is all an understatement. What I want to say its, Run, BlueCord, Run!

A little about me (some of this may come in handy). I left in 87. It felt like an escape to me because of the terrible paranoia at HQ. I was in the 2nd Corps with LCM, I was married to a clergyman, I was a mother, I had been a researcher on the Aramaic project, and I had been loyal for 17 years. Boom. My personal crisis came while on the research team and then VP died and then Geer swooped in, and then and then and then.... long story short, I lost all but a couple of friends, but the new life I gained was more than worth it. You find that you can not only survive but thrive if you just remember TWI does not define who you are, nor does their propaganda.

Cheers to your courage. Thanks for visiting us. I hope you find helpful info and abundant empathy here. Let me know if I can help answer any questions you might have, especially about the research dept.

Just curious, do they still have a so-called research department any more?

All the best,

Charlene Edge

Sorry, but I just don't see it the same way, Penworks. The "sales pitch" (if you want to call it that), or attraction, went beyond something only emanating from vpw or pfal. Neither do I think the problem was not being able to check out what was taught because of some lack of consideration for the Bible as some sort of anthology written by different people. Then again, I was a religion/theology major at the time, in my third year of college, so perhaps it's not surprising that I'd see things differently. I'd already studied the JEPD theories of authorship and such. Humanities, Western Civilization, Eastern Religions, Philosophy... not counting any earlier looks into various church groups or experimenting with some of the occult or spiritualism (TM even had "group sessions" you could attend on campus.) So, by the time I crossed paths with twi and pfal, perhaps I was a little more focused on certain things than some. And yeah, by that point in time, I suppose you could (probably would) even say (have said) I was already a fundamentalist. Not a highly structured one, mind you, but there were some things I was already fully persuaded of (of which there is "no going back on.") As for my belief in God, the resurrection of Jesus Christ, and the truth of the Word of God, I had crossed the Rubicon. What remained "unsettled" in my mind and life (before twi), was only to see and understand how it worked and fit together.

It's not clear whether you intended to say that the research department only delved into the scriptures to prove what VPW thought or said it said. Though I heard it pretty much became like that with LCM after LCM took over the presidency, I don't recall it being like that prior. There were some number of "known issues" with what was being taught, while some other things weren't taught at all because of a lack of visibility (and/or viability.)

Agreed.

Hi TLC,

Sure wish I'd had some other kind of education about the Scriptures like you did before getting involved in TWI. That education might have steered me away from PFAL.

I hope my story, Affinity for Windows, that Rocky pointed out, is interesting to you. The team was a mix, our jobs were varied, but in the end, to my knowledge, nothing that contradicted VPW's teachings got published.

submission -- the act of submitting, yielding to another for decision, yielding to the action, control, power, etc. of another or others; allow to be subjected to treatment, analysis; to defer to another's judgment or decision

Systematically and cunningly, twi had woven an intricate network of submission throughout its "way tree." From the git-go, one needed to be "tapped to the root" to receive nutrients. Gawd, it was right there.....staring me in the face!!! You (little leaf) MUST stay attached to the twig to get those "daily nutrients." You will die if you don't stay nourished (by twi). Submission was/is the operative function that powered the twi-functioning and growth.

Submission was the whole of twi.....a betrayal of self, deceptively yielding oneself to the judgments or decisions of another. It was a pseudo-christian counterfeit devised by a false teacher and COUNTERFEIT CONSTRUCT, the twig fellowship. So, no matter that we were served sweet fellowship [love-bombing] in those "innocent" twig gatherings.....it paved the way of submission to a cult. No wonder wierwille side-stepped scriptural references of "member in particular in the body of Christ".....and went with the leaf-twig-branch-limb-trunk-roots analogy....to usurp the rightful allegiance, honor and worship due to God Almighty via His son, Jesus Christ.

Red flags, red flags.....I questioned this stuff within the first few months of my involvement, and was given a blow-off answer. Crap....I saw it back then as off-kilter. The Way Tree, why? Yet, I deferred to their "spiritual judgment and discernment."

No wonder that after pfal they didn't encourage grads to go buy concordances and lexicons.....but just take the damn classes. Submission: it has ALWAYS been the staple ingredient. Not righteousness, redemption, sanctification, salvation, etc......but SUBMISSION.

Not once, EVER.....did anyone in twi ever ask/tell me, "Why don't you pray about it and see what the Father wants you to do?"

When they called on you to speak in tongues and interpret (in mtg).....YOU submitted.

When they told you all the classes needed before the advanced class....YOU submitted.

On staff, when they told you that salary was on a "needs-basis"........We submitted.

On staff, when they told us to sign that Social Security waiver........We submitted.

Yeah, I know.....submission is everywhere. But with twi, it was life, livelihood and eternal rewards

and judgment wrapped into one big chocolate sundae. I sure hope that wierwille receives his rewards. :anim-smile:/>/>

And, here's the cherry on top.......Manipulation of One's Consent

Hi GreaseSpotters.

Actually, faithful grads and Way leaders encouraged lots of us at the ECU fellowship (in Greenville, NC) during 1970s to buy concordances and lexicons to study THE WORD. We were told to check out what Wierwille taught for ourselves. What a concept. The problem was we couldn't. We were too ignorant and too swept up into adoration of the "MOG" to question or think or understand his fast talking sales pitch. Also, what the leaders left out of the "tools for researching" was any consideration of the Bible as an anthology written by different people. The Bible was THE WORD OF GOD authored by God Himself and it had to fit together without contradictions. End of discussion. The Bible was not recognized for the great literature it is, only for it being "authored by God" and being the manual on how to be a human being, providing the ONLY source of truth in the whole world.

With that attitude, I learned nothing outside of the Bible that could have helped me UNDERSTAND the Bible.

That's what fundamentalism does.

So, I ended up in the so-called research department having to submit to what VPW said the Bible said, all the while gradually discovering he was not always right. Ask me anything you'd like to know about the "research team" at HQ from 1970 to 1987. I'll do my best to answer.

So back to the topic of this thread: submission. Yes, many of us submitted to the authority of VPW and other top leaders. Why? Each of us has to sort that out. I do not think we were all brainwashed. I think each of us probably weighted in at different places on scales of suggestibility and vulnerability. I know some people who NEVER thought they were manipulated into submission, that they made their own decisions in TWI. Others were more pliable. There is no one size fits all.

You know, I think there is something beautiful about being submissive to the right things. Like to someone else who has mastered a skill I want to learn. Master artists teach apprentices and those apprentices learn because of their humility and submission to the master who's spent his or her life mastering the art. But that is a topic for another day and probably another kind of website!

Cheers,

Penworks

Of course, many of us know the answer to that question already.

I saw a post this evening on Facebook that inspired me to think about the question.

Were you ever subject to Wierwille's angry rants? Or Martindale's?

If you're curious, here's an interesting resource that provides a list of 10 questions to reflect back on your relationships with those "Mogs."

For our younger greasespotters, perhaps you might have some insight on whether the organization (TWI) currently demonstrates a narcissistic personality.

A couple of days ago, I found that the Power for Abundant Living book is for sale (from third-party vendors) on amazon.com.

I found some of the reviews and comments on those reviews quite revealing.

This is what I saw on Facebook that reminded me of Wierwille.

Narcissists

hurt people,

they carry shame,

low self-esteem,

endured neglect,

or deprivation,

as a child,

they create a container

to keep the shame in,

and repress it,

they aren't aware

how damaged they are,

when held accountable,

they deny and blame,

subconsciously

they feel unworthy,

they can't bear to think

there is something

wrong with them,

so they project,

make it your fault,

so they won't feel,

the pain of their own

self-judgement...

- Marg

- inspired by Ross Rosenberg

I could not agree more. As a person who had first-hand experience with VPW, this description fits like "a hand in a glove."

It's not either/or, in my view

It depends on what the Corps person did and with what attitude they did it

It depends on what individuals did with the power and authority that they had over other people

From what I read here, some of you Corps grads were on the receiving end of mental abuse that I can't even imagine...but I also observed Corps grads dishing it out and who were (apparently) willing participants in the top-down abuse that originated with Wierwille, and I was lucky enough to know Corps grads who were good people who did nothing but "bless" the lives of those they came in contact with

But you didn't have to be a Corps grad to be a victimizer, to be an abuser of power

I did not go through the Corps (I signed up, participated in Apprentice Corps meetings etc, didn't get my money together and never tried again) but I am not proud to say that I was party to and complicit in abuses as were other non-Corps people. A couple of people who I categorize as those whom I would most like to hit in the face with a hammer were not Corps...you just can't make a blanket statement about a whole class of people

I think this is an important topic. Thanks for bringing it up. Disclosure: I am a grad of the 2nd Corps who knew Wierwille personally. I was a limb leader's wife for a time. I was on the research team, too.

From my experience in the cult, and from knowing a variety of people in it over the years, I'd say victim/perpetrator is pretty black and white, but probably those are useful words to apply as we attempt to clarify who bears responsibility for the darkness perpetrated by the system known as TWI.

But as Oakspear says, applying the correct label correctly, if we chose to do it, is complicated. People varied in level of responsibility and attitudes and intentions.

That said, I feel some measure of guilt about having been someone who sang TWI's praises, keeping myself bundled up in a cloud of denial, thinking I was promoting the greatest ministry on earth. To make amends, I do what I can .... moral outrage is appropriate, not only for outsiders looking in, but as a response from those of us who left.

Since this topic is called, Cults, Cults. Everywhere, I thought I'd include a link to the recent issue of ICSA's journal with the lead article "The Challenge of Defining Cult."

International Cultic Studies journal - new issue

Cheers.