penworks

Here is what I remember.....

When I arrived at Emporia Campus to attend the 1978 advanced class, I was designated as a Branch Coordinator.

Within 2 hours, the branch coordinators were to have their first meeting to be given our marching orders....

er, instructions. Wierwille and Martindale were at this meeting......and within 20 minutes wierwille referenced

these three 8th corps men and how they'd gone rogue and "had devil spirits."

Yep, ole wierwille gave us HIS version of a situation that had NOTHING to do with us. What the hell was he doing?

Well......1)Do what you're told, 2)Do not stray from twi-doctrine, or 3)You, too, will get possessed. Same ole

intimidation/manipulation confrontation based on FEAR TACTICS.

What were "your kind of people?" Well.....I see them as exemplifying critical thinking.

They WERE doing Biblical RESEARCH to uncover deeper truths and/or expose wierwille's slipshod plagiarism.

Obviously, wierwille was trying to discredit these men and it chapped his a$ to be challenged head-on.

Clearly, veepee was fuming about this and in October, three months later, wrote this long letter to corps

and instructed corps not to tell others. Yet, wierwille had ALREADY violated his own instructions....as

he had already told us advanced class students [branch coordinators].

Well put.

Wierwille had his own idea of what "doing biblical research" meant (including plagiarism, which is stealing), and it was different than how people in academia defined it. A clash was bound to happen. It did. Many times.

In fact, it had happened long before this incident. Other people had left TWI before this because of uncovering VP's plagiarism, narrow-mindedness, etc. etc. I can't cite names due to privacy issues, but I can tell you they exist. Some were in the Corps, some were not.

OK, I'll chime in. Of all the letters I've read, one really stands out. The one dated Oct. 20, 1978. It concerns 3 men who started in residence in the 8th WC, were assigned to do research, and wandered off the reservation. I'll spare you my take on it, but I can't help but wonder...these 3 men really seem like "your kind of people". Their conclusions would fit in fine with most of you. Where are they now? Are any of them here?

The 3 men are Peter Bernegger, John Fanning, and Marty McRae. The letter is 6 pages long. Oh, and it's upside down. I had to invert the monitor of my computer to read it. All the other letters are right side up. I was able to print the letter. I couldn't help comparing this letter with Passing of a Patriarch. The last paragraph of the letter (summary and conclusion, lol) is very telling. After making his case against the men, VP admonishes..."Hide this whole affair in your learning heart and do not speak to others about it, not even Corps. Close the lid and throw the key away."

This was heeded. I never heard anything about this. I remember Peter Bernegger had an article in the way mag about the Christmas star and I always wondered why I never heard his name after that, but as a non corps, I felt as informed as anyone about ministry stuff like that. I never had any hint that something like this had happened.

That situation easily had just as much potential to break up the ministry as POP did, but it was never leaked. POP was definitely leaked. I know that POP was read to somebody in April of 1986. I understand only 12 or so people were intended to hear it, but it was leaked. I went to ROA in 86. 20,000 people there, seemed like fellowship as usual, then less than 1 month after that I was on a date and the girl told me that someone had reproved the BOT. Sounded disturbing. Couple weeks after that there's a meeting. Limb leader was there. Damage control. Confusion. "Everybody" was an expert on what was "really" going on. Ministry was never the same after that.

If someone had leaked the 6 page letter back in 78 the same thing could've happened. Anybody remember the letter? The situation? Just curious.

Yes, I remember that letter. Initially, it frightened me into remaining loyal to TWI. I still have that letter today, as well as many others from VPW, since I was a Second Corps grad (graduated in 1973).

Perhaps if the letter had been more widely known, more people would have left TWI back then, but who knows?

I knew of those three men. I was on the biblical research team at HQ 1984 - 1986. After escaping HQ in 1987, I began the long journey of writing my story. I quote that letter in my memoir: Undertow: My Escape from the Fundamentalism and Cult Control of The Way International.

Target publication date: January 2017.

HERE

Thanks for providing the link!

Good morning,

I would have chimed in earlier but I've been sick. Nothing serious.

For any new visitors to this site, I want to say that DWBH is an extremely important voice on TWI inner workings, big and small. The facts he has that back up his assertions are first-hand experiences. I knew him personally. For one thing, we were both at HQ at a critical time, 1986, when that scathing and disruptive (understatement) so-called Passing of a Patriarch letter was written and read by Chr*s G**r.

My heartfelt suggestion is for visitors (and anyone who has not heard it) is to listen to the GSC radio show on this website titled, Through the Fog. I think it will give you some idea of the evil that occurred.

DWBH mentioned a book I am writing, Undertow, so I want to let you know it is near publication. When it's ready, GSC folks will be one of the first groups to know.

A side note: Yesterday the world lost one of the most important memory keepers and voices on human rights abuse (understatement), one that expressed moral outrage in a way we could embrace... Elie Wiesel. https://www.washingt...omepage%2Fstory

I would like to thank GSC for providing a place where we can express moral outrage over the spiritual, emotional, mental, and sexual abuse perpetrated by "spiritual" leaders we trusted. Hopefully, our voices can make a difference in this world. That's the point, right? To inform and help. To shed light, understanding, and healing. That, by the way, is why I wrote my book.

Cheers,

Penworks, a.k.a. Charlene

By the way, you failed to mention that certain earlier corps were invited to be ordained, but for reasons that might elude others, simply chose not to.

As a woman in the 2nd Corps, I was offered this opportunity but declined it because I was married to a 2nd Corps man who Wierwille had already ordained and that "was good enough for me."

So was VPW the source of these ridiculous salutations? (God Bless in the most powerfully abundantly blessed name that is above all blah blah blah . . . )

"I thank you Dr. Weirwille, for never attaching a single string to my life" February 17, 1981

BAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!

I have many of these in my own files at home in hardcopy, the originals that were mailed to us Corps people. It is highly probable VPW had help writing them, just as he had an assistant, Allis*n Hean*y, write his articles titled, By The Way, that were published in the St. Mary's Evening Leader newspaper during the 1970s and 1980s.

I just discovered that someone hosts a website of TWI information, including letters Victor Paul Wierwille wrote to Way Corps members during the 1970s and 1980s. I received those letters and have kept many of them in my own files.

To read them yourself, visit: https://sites.google.com/site/corpsnewsletters/system/app/pages/subPages?path=/home

Hi, I'm writing this to anyone considering whether to break ties with TWI: please keep reading threads like this at this website.

The Way sub-culture that Skyrider describes is real. It was real for hundreds of us, especially those of us in the Way Corps who gave everything to Wierwille's perverted, narcissistic, dangerous-thinking goal of Word over the world.

During my 17-year experience in TWI, I came to see (especially while on the research team) that there was no "Word" as VPW described it and no realistic way to "move it over" the entire world. That goal was an hallucination that emanated from a sick mind full of dangerous ideas.

Think about it. The Way ministry running the world! VPW's teachings dominating everyone's thoughts? Plagiarized books with VP's name on them for sale in every town? Yikes! The idea that we knew more of "the Word" than anyone else on the planet was very silly indeed. (that's an understatement in case you're wondering).

Besides, who wants to live in a world where everyone thinks and behaves the exact same way? That is the farthest thing from democracy that there is! That's a nightmarish world of science fiction.

So, TWIexit as soon as possible. You'll be glad you did, no matter how difficult exiting might be for you. You can find support here. You can search for resources at places like the International Cultic Studies Association.

Check out some of these videos:

https://www.youtube....1HtMvoa8kRcLcig

Cheers,

Penworks

That quote from the newsletter is more than sad. I knew the author of it long ago at ECU. Seeds of this thinking were planted then. I dare say they were fed and watered by VPW himself. Without the VPW influence, I wonder where JAL would be today? Sad, really sad ...

The surrounding of himself with an armed security detail and a tight entourage was not out of fear as much as it was out of malignant narcissism.

My first summer school in 1971, dictor was everybody's pal. He walked around in shorts and overalls and hung out with his keedz. Lots of pizza and beer or burger nights, dances with secular rock and R&B music. There was no dress code other than Sunday nights and corpse nights (Tuesday's back then). Lots of laughter and music in prep for the first ROA.

But, by the time of my first year in-Rez, it was already changing. As it turned out, I had an affinity for being hailed into dictor's office over the loudspeakers in the courtyard for personal reproof and correction meetings frequently during my first 4 months in the corpse. The first one, I entered his office smoking a cigarette and sat down without asking permission. OMG!....you'd think the world was ending! Dictor screams at me, "Stand up!".

Would you walk into the office of President Nixon smoking a .... cigarette?". I quickly shot back, "I wouldn't wanna be anywhere near old tricky dick's office VP!" I was then ordered at top vein-popping volume, to get the .... outta his sight and never call him "VP" again! Never got around to yelling at me for whatever he called me in for.

But, I began to see that malignant narcissistic delusional grandeur of dictor as the man-o-gawd. Comparing himself to Nixon as worthy of the same care, concern, respect and treatment for himself as the most important man on the Earth.....the greatest Apostle since Paul in the first centur, expositor of the great mystery, whose "specialty" was "the holy spirit field" which he co-opted and blatantNtly plagiarized from J.E. Stiles, B.G. Leonard, E.W. Bullinger, Kenyon, Pillai, Lamsa, Glenn Clark, Rufus Mosely, Starr Daily, Oswald Chambers, Rosalind Rinker, F.F. Bruce, Charles Welch, to name a few of his original researchers.

So, when Dictor had enough $ and "trained personnel", the security team, "Bless Patrol", guns, malpacks etc., took over and the goon squad began in earnest in 1975 under the guise of "spiritual vigilance and CP# 1" against the reprogrammers and the seedboy-led trinitarian denominations which were out to kill him and "the minus-tray of the word" we all stood for. Oh the humanity!......LOL!

Add to the growing malignant paranoid narcissism, alcoholism, neo-Nazi politics and Aryan theology, stir in a little of Nietche's "Ubermensch" and a lot of sexual predation and serial rape, and you've got a lot to protect, eh? Surround yourself with family and corpses and build your kingdom. Grab guys like MacMullan, Quillen, Geer, Wajnberg, and some other psychopathic ex-marines, Green Berets, and general whackos, give 'em guns and "training" and turn them loose. First on the enemies without.....then, more sinisterly, the enemies within. The whole gun/security/bless patrol/goon squad thing was produced not by fear, but rather by a massive malignant paranoid narcissist's vain and self-serving ego trip. Sheesh!

So, to the people who defend VP having bodyguards for self protection, like the Pope has (a Corps grad actually told me this recently when she accused me of being "angry" on one of my website posts) I guess I will refer them to this-here-post. Thanks for spelling this out!

Hi BlueCord,

I'm just chiming in to welcome you to this most rambunctious- in- the- best- way group of people around. Have no doubt. You are on the right track to disassociate yourself with TWI. Life outside is great, we have civil rights here, we can grow and follow our hearts. You can too.

I trust you and your wife can leave without any big uproar. Respect others and they will respect you. That is not to say you agree with them or want to fellowship with them. It means by their behavior you decide it is best for you to go elsewhere. This is all an understatement. What I want to say its, Run, BlueCord, Run!

A little about me (some of this may come in handy). I left in 87. It felt like an escape to me because of the terrible paranoia at HQ. I was in the 2nd Corps with LCM, I was married to a clergyman, I was a mother, I had been a researcher on the Aramaic project, and I had been loyal for 17 years. Boom. My personal crisis came while on the research team and then VP died and then Geer swooped in, and then and then and then.... long story short, I lost all but a couple of friends, but the new life I gained was more than worth it. You find that you can not only survive but thrive if you just remember TWI does not define who you are, nor does their propaganda.

Cheers to your courage. Thanks for visiting us. I hope you find helpful info and abundant empathy here. Let me know if I can help answer any questions you might have, especially about the research dept.

Just curious, do they still have a so-called research department any more?

All the best,

Charlene Edge

Sorry, but I just don't see it the same way, Penworks. The "sales pitch" (if you want to call it that), or attraction, went beyond something only emanating from vpw or pfal. Neither do I think the problem was not being able to check out what was taught because of some lack of consideration for the Bible as some sort of anthology written by different people. Then again, I was a religion/theology major at the time, in my third year of college, so perhaps it's not surprising that I'd see things differently. I'd already studied the JEPD theories of authorship and such. Humanities, Western Civilization, Eastern Religions, Philosophy... not counting any earlier looks into various church groups or experimenting with some of the occult or spiritualism (TM even had "group sessions" you could attend on campus.) So, by the time I crossed paths with twi and pfal, perhaps I was a little more focused on certain things than some. And yeah, by that point in time, I suppose you could (probably would) even say (have said) I was already a fundamentalist. Not a highly structured one, mind you, but there were some things I was already fully persuaded of (of which there is "no going back on.") As for my belief in God, the resurrection of Jesus Christ, and the truth of the Word of God, I had crossed the Rubicon. What remained "unsettled" in my mind and life (before twi), was only to see and understand how it worked and fit together.

It's not clear whether you intended to say that the research department only delved into the scriptures to prove what VPW thought or said it said. Though I heard it pretty much became like that with LCM after LCM took over the presidency, I don't recall it being like that prior. There were some number of "known issues" with what was being taught, while some other things weren't taught at all because of a lack of visibility (and/or viability.)

Agreed.

Hi TLC,

Sure wish I'd had some other kind of education about the Scriptures like you did before getting involved in TWI. That education might have steered me away from PFAL.

I hope my story, Affinity for Windows, that Rocky pointed out, is interesting to you. The team was a mix, our jobs were varied, but in the end, to my knowledge, nothing that contradicted VPW's teachings got published.

submission -- the act of submitting, yielding to another for decision, yielding to the action, control, power, etc. of another or others; allow to be subjected to treatment, analysis; to defer to another's judgment or decision

Systematically and cunningly, twi had woven an intricate network of submission throughout its "way tree." From the git-go, one needed to be "tapped to the root" to receive nutrients. Gawd, it was right there.....staring me in the face!!! You (little leaf) MUST stay attached to the twig to get those "daily nutrients." You will die if you don't stay nourished (by twi). Submission was/is the operative function that powered the twi-functioning and growth.

Submission was the whole of twi.....a betrayal of self, deceptively yielding oneself to the judgments or decisions of another. It was a pseudo-christian counterfeit devised by a false teacher and COUNTERFEIT CONSTRUCT, the twig fellowship. So, no matter that we were served sweet fellowship [love-bombing] in those "innocent" twig gatherings.....it paved the way of submission to a cult. No wonder wierwille side-stepped scriptural references of "member in particular in the body of Christ".....and went with the leaf-twig-branch-limb-trunk-roots analogy....to usurp the rightful allegiance, honor and worship due to God Almighty via His son, Jesus Christ.

Red flags, red flags.....I questioned this stuff within the first few months of my involvement, and was given a blow-off answer. Crap....I saw it back then as off-kilter. The Way Tree, why? Yet, I deferred to their "spiritual judgment and discernment."

No wonder that after pfal they didn't encourage grads to go buy concordances and lexicons.....but just take the damn classes. Submission: it has ALWAYS been the staple ingredient. Not righteousness, redemption, sanctification, salvation, etc......but SUBMISSION.

Not once, EVER.....did anyone in twi ever ask/tell me, "Why don't you pray about it and see what the Father wants you to do?"

When they called on you to speak in tongues and interpret (in mtg).....YOU submitted.

When they told you all the classes needed before the advanced class....YOU submitted.

On staff, when they told you that salary was on a "needs-basis"........We submitted.

On staff, when they told us to sign that Social Security waiver........We submitted.

Yeah, I know.....submission is everywhere. But with twi, it was life, livelihood and eternal rewards

and judgment wrapped into one big chocolate sundae. I sure hope that wierwille receives his rewards. :anim-smile:/>/>

And, here's the cherry on top.......Manipulation of One's Consent

Hi GreaseSpotters.

Actually, faithful grads and Way leaders encouraged lots of us at the ECU fellowship (in Greenville, NC) during 1970s to buy concordances and lexicons to study THE WORD. We were told to check out what Wierwille taught for ourselves. What a concept. The problem was we couldn't. We were too ignorant and too swept up into adoration of the "MOG" to question or think or understand his fast talking sales pitch. Also, what the leaders left out of the "tools for researching" was any consideration of the Bible as an anthology written by different people. The Bible was THE WORD OF GOD authored by God Himself and it had to fit together without contradictions. End of discussion. The Bible was not recognized for the great literature it is, only for it being "authored by God" and being the manual on how to be a human being, providing the ONLY source of truth in the whole world.

With that attitude, I learned nothing outside of the Bible that could have helped me UNDERSTAND the Bible.

That's what fundamentalism does.

So, I ended up in the so-called research department having to submit to what VPW said the Bible said, all the while gradually discovering he was not always right. Ask me anything you'd like to know about the "research team" at HQ from 1970 to 1987. I'll do my best to answer.

So back to the topic of this thread: submission. Yes, many of us submitted to the authority of VPW and other top leaders. Why? Each of us has to sort that out. I do not think we were all brainwashed. I think each of us probably weighted in at different places on scales of suggestibility and vulnerability. I know some people who NEVER thought they were manipulated into submission, that they made their own decisions in TWI. Others were more pliable. There is no one size fits all.

You know, I think there is something beautiful about being submissive to the right things. Like to someone else who has mastered a skill I want to learn. Master artists teach apprentices and those apprentices learn because of their humility and submission to the master who's spent his or her life mastering the art. But that is a topic for another day and probably another kind of website!

Cheers,

Penworks

Of course, many of us know the answer to that question already.

I saw a post this evening on Facebook that inspired me to think about the question.

Were you ever subject to Wierwille's angry rants? Or Martindale's?

If you're curious, here's an interesting resource that provides a list of 10 questions to reflect back on your relationships with those "Mogs."

For our younger greasespotters, perhaps you might have some insight on whether the organization (TWI) currently demonstrates a narcissistic personality.

A couple of days ago, I found that the Power for Abundant Living book is for sale (from third-party vendors) on amazon.com.

I found some of the reviews and comments on those reviews quite revealing.

This is what I saw on Facebook that reminded me of Wierwille.

Narcissists

hurt people,

they carry shame,

low self-esteem,

endured neglect,

or deprivation,

as a child,

they create a container

to keep the shame in,

and repress it,

they aren't aware

how damaged they are,

when held accountable,

they deny and blame,

subconsciously

they feel unworthy,

they can't bear to think

there is something

wrong with them,

so they project,

make it your fault,

so they won't feel,

the pain of their own

self-judgement...

- Marg

- inspired by Ross Rosenberg

I could not agree more. As a person who had first-hand experience with VPW, this description fits like "a hand in a glove."

It's not either/or, in my view

It depends on what the Corps person did and with what attitude they did it

It depends on what individuals did with the power and authority that they had over other people

From what I read here, some of you Corps grads were on the receiving end of mental abuse that I can't even imagine...but I also observed Corps grads dishing it out and who were (apparently) willing participants in the top-down abuse that originated with Wierwille, and I was lucky enough to know Corps grads who were good people who did nothing but "bless" the lives of those they came in contact with

But you didn't have to be a Corps grad to be a victimizer, to be an abuser of power

I did not go through the Corps (I signed up, participated in Apprentice Corps meetings etc, didn't get my money together and never tried again) but I am not proud to say that I was party to and complicit in abuses as were other non-Corps people. A couple of people who I categorize as those whom I would most like to hit in the face with a hammer were not Corps...you just can't make a blanket statement about a whole class of people

I think this is an important topic. Thanks for bringing it up. Disclosure: I am a grad of the 2nd Corps who knew Wierwille personally. I was a limb leader's wife for a time. I was on the research team, too.

From my experience in the cult, and from knowing a variety of people in it over the years, I'd say victim/perpetrator is pretty black and white, but probably those are useful words to apply as we attempt to clarify who bears responsibility for the darkness perpetrated by the system known as TWI.

But as Oakspear says, applying the correct label correctly, if we chose to do it, is complicated. People varied in level of responsibility and attitudes and intentions.

That said, I feel some measure of guilt about having been someone who sang TWI's praises, keeping myself bundled up in a cloud of denial, thinking I was promoting the greatest ministry on earth. To make amends, I do what I can .... moral outrage is appropriate, not only for outsiders looking in, but as a response from those of us who left.

Since this topic is called, Cults, Cults. Everywhere, I thought I'd include a link to the recent issue of ICSA's journal with the lead article "The Challenge of Defining Cult."

International Cultic Studies journal - new issue

Cheers.

Wouldn't matter if there was. First amendment, ya know.

It would be an extremely difficult thing to put any kind of parameters or legal limitations other than already existing laws that address issues not necessarily inherent to religious worship, like polygamy or human sacrifice.

If some practice comes up that requires society deal with it, that practice would be targeted rather than the religion.

Right. It's the action that gets evaluated by the law, not the belief behind it, right?

If anyone's interested there's a book called, Cults, Culture and the Law: Perspectives on New Religious Movements, edited by Thomas Robbins, WIlliam C. Shepherd, and James McBride. Scholars Press, Chico, CA. It's put out by the American Academy of Religious Studies in Religion.

TWI is mentioned in this book on pg. 111 in the chapter titled, "Cults and Conversion: The Case for Informed Consent" by Richard Delgado. Here is a little bit from it:

"Values of self-determination already play a significant role in the debate about religious cultism. On a rhetorical level, defenders of these groups [cults] ask why young adults should not be free to join whatever religious organizations they desire. Opponents respond that free choice is exactly what these groups deny. Constitutional analysis of state intervention raises consent issues, as do tort and criminal actions brought by cult members after unsuccessful deprogrammings, and suits by ex-members against cult leaders for unlawful imprisonment, slavery, intentional infliction of emotional distress, and fraud."

Delgado goes on to advocate for a consent agreement when a person joins a group, meaning the group gives full disclosure about its intentions, beliefs, etc. and the new recruit agrees to it.

I know I laughed out loud when I read this article because it seems to me that groups like "cults" do not reveal their true nature right off the bat. Usually it is camouflaged by statements like, "we do biblical research" while in the back room they have people pretending to do that, or at least doing something they CALL biblical research as defined by the cult.

What do you all think? Do you think a group could even be required by law to deliver a consent form for recruits to sign? And what if a recruit signed it? What exactly would that mean for that person's life?

Rocky,

I agree that the "do surgery on Waybrain" section was helpful. Specific insider language helped created Wayworld. Identifying how VPW redefined words and concepts to suit his goals was a huge part of my recovery. Examples include "legal." That did not mean what it normally means in society: i.e. abiding by the law of the land. In Wayworld, it meant the law of the Old Testament. So because VPW touted we were "free in Christ," so anyone who abided by the 10 commandments, for instance, was "legal" or "legalistic." Further, they were "living according to the wrong administration." since VPW said we were living in the "grace administration." These divisions are one way that bible teachers use to account for what most readers see as contradictions in the Bible.

VPW got that "administration" theory (also called dispensationalism) from a bunch of others like Bullinger and John Nelson Darby , an Anglo-Irish Bible teacher from the 1800s.

I digress ... I think John Juedes is amazing in that he's stuck with analyzing The Way for so long and has provided so much helpful info to so many of us. I have thanked him for that. Hope ya'll have, too.

What I would caution people about, however, is that he believes people leaving TWI should seek a Christian avenue for fellowship etc. That may be helpful and appropriate for some, but not all.

That path is not necessarily the best for every single person who leaves TWI. Just sayin'.

Cheers!

Penworks

We were bullied.

Time and time again, we were bullied and conditioned against our better judgment

to follow wierwille's (martindale/geer/rivenbark) lead.

Even when these teachings were at cross-purposes with practical realities,

common sense and traditional norms:

1) Individual boundaries and advancement

2) Education and career choices

3) Christian faith and moral fiber

4) Family and good parenting

5) Investment and homeownership

6) Friends, neighbors and social networking

7) Goals, financial planning and retirement

8) Etc. etc.

In 1985, wierwille died......and the corps breathed fresh air again.

The bully was dead....and it was amazing how quickly things changed.

The movement was NOT real. The thug died and the chains broke.

And, most were not going to let bully jr. geer into our playground.

Isn't it amazing how much power lies in a bully pulpit

in the name of "christianity?"

Ditto. As for the title of this thread, I would delete the word "spiritual" as the adjective for bully.

Yeah.....ain't that the truth.

And, still others....the only way they could deal with the bully was avoidance.

So many just knew that their best strategy was to NOT CONFRONT THE BULLY,

but to just "leave the playground" and find another spot.

I vividly remember men like John R@ce, Ambassador One pilot.....

who just up and abruptly left twi. And, Mike Sm!th, First Corps

who headed to Alaska in June 1982. Yeah.....ALASKA. lol

Seems like some just wanted to put as much distance as possible for the life

that they WERE NOW CHOOSING.

Looking back, I now see why certain men fell in line while others didn't.

Wierwille took to manipulation like a duck takes to water.

Several other abrupt "defectors" include VPW's motorcoach driver, C*uck *cher. He was there one day and gone the next. I think that was in 1977 or so ... he left with the wife of one of the guys in Joyful Noise. Hush hush ...

Would John Juedes' site be of help?

My linkhttp://www.empirenet.com/~messiah7/cultsthe.htm

Ditto. I think the good thing about this site John Juedes' has is that he identifies himself. Also, Karl Kahler's book is full of information well documented.

Here's my two cents on this topic:

I found references to The Way simply by going to public and college libraries and looking through books about cults or new religions, etc. and checking the Index in each book. It is time consuming, but hey, if you want to dig, you gotta get out a shovel and put some elbow grease into it, as my dad used to say ...

One example was in a library in Amsterdam! Here's my blog post about finding Melton's book there: http://charleneedge....-library-treat/

Another one is a book from the AAR Studies in Religion 36 volume. The name is: Cults, Culture, and the Law: Perspectives on New Religious Movements. Published by Scholars Press, Chico, CA. 1985. Edited by Thomas Robbins, William C. Shepherd, and James McBride. The Way Int'l is cited on four different pages.

A word of caution about using quotes from this site. Most posters here use a fake name, so to outsiders, sometimes that detracts from the veracity of the stories here. In other words, they could be ghost stories. I don't have that attitude because I was in the group and can pretty much tell if something is bogus (but not all the time, I'm sure), but without an insider's knowledge, outsiders would not be able to sniff things out so well. Maybe ...

Good luck,

Charlene

Seth,

I read your comment under the article on the newspaper's site.

I was sorry to read it.

You said, "I absolutely hate those people, if they all died today I wouldn't shed a tear."

When we say we hate people, it does not help our efforts here at GSC in raising awareness of TWI but I realize you were only speaking for yourself.

IMO, hatefulness might be what TWI leaders are/were about. But it is not what I am about. And I don't think most greasespotters are into keeping hate in their hearts for anyone. But maybe I am wrong. I think hate breeds hate. We may not love TWI leaders who abused us and others, but hate is pretty strong stuff ... I shy away from it. But that's just me ...

Ditto, WordWolf.

" What I find amazing is that the testimony and teaching of someone who never met the guy and who wasn't taught by anyone who had was given...well...more importance than the guy who was the reason for the whole movement."

THIS!!

:eusa_clap:/>

And what I find amazing is that all what we know about "the guy who was the reason for the whole movement" is based on what a few people say he did or say he said. And they do not all agree all the time. Or am I wrong about this?

I remember a lot of time spent on the distinction between "household" (TWI) and "family" (Christians, in general); but I think most of that was in the LCM years.

George

Actually, the family/household delineation originated with VP . I was involved 1970-1987 and during that time I heard him make that sort of distinction over and over.

Once upon a time there was a brouhaha (not sure if that is the correct spelling) :-) about "household" and "family" within the Satellite Research Group, which included the research team at HQ but others were involved, too. If you check the Way magazines in the early 1980s, you'll find a Believer's Pledge of Allegiance that was a result of it. We are one household under God, etc. etc.

Anyhow, it is all rubbish. Another sort of rubbish is that this distinction that Wierwille made is denied by Wierwille loyalists who blame everything wrong with The Way on Martindale who has been discredited over and over anyway. Wrong. VP began the entire Way ball rolling and it rolls on today in the off-shoots and the scattered Wierwille lovers around the world.

Just a couple of weeks ago a long lost "pal" from the 1970s who is not part of The Way in New Knoxville, but obviously revealed herself to still be enmeshed in TWI dogmas, said, "But we're still the first century church in the twentieth and there's supposed to be one man of God like Paul was in the first century." She listens to VP on tape over the internet. He is still her man of God.

YIKES. The myth of Wierwille just will not go away. Some people will never admit he was what he really was...it is too frightening to admit it. If you do, the walls of your safe and secure belief-life come crashing down and you must start over. That takes work. It's just too hard.

In PFAL we were taught to "Stand, no matter what happens." (paraphrased a bit) You can't do that without modifying your own behavior. In doing so, you become an active part of the procedure. That's what makes it so difficult to recognize.

Good point. Self-reflection dropped to zero in many of our cases. When you are in a box, you don't realize it until it begins to split apart and you see specs of light peek through.

From all of our posts, it's apparent we are well aware of the cult problem. What are solutions?

Again, last night we watched a show on the History Channel titled, America's Book of Secrets. Season 2, Deadly Cults (first aired May 10, 2013). The segment on dangerous cults was pretty good.

Deadly cults

Rick Ross, a cult examiner who is often an expert witness in courts, made the point, along with others who were interviewed, that our own freedoms in the US - freedom of speech, religion, and assembly, are what pave the way for cults to form legally...and easily.

Rick Ross, cult awareness site

To most of us, the following is not news: It is easy in our country to form a non-profit and say it is a new religion and boom, a new cult is born. And it enjoys the protections under the constitution that major well-known religions enjoy, including tax exemption status. That's one downside...

Note: Remember that Europeans endured the rough seas of the Atlantic to get to this promised land so they could express their beliefs and enjoy religious freedom and boy did they get it, for the most part. Some persecutions persisted for years until those freedoms were enforced. Give a nod here to Thomas Jefferson, etc.

Everyone goes through hard times in life, as Rick Ross pointed out on the Deadly Cults episode, and it is during those vulnerable times that a devoted follower of a dangerous cult comes along with ANSWERS. Those of us here at GSC can say AMEN to that!

We are all too familiar with the problem of dangerous cults.

What are solutions?

I wish I had one magic answer, don't you?

As far as I can tell, all we can do is try and head off seekers at the pass that leads into cult territory.

One way is to tell our stories. GSC has had some good results in opening peoples' eyes to TWI and to cults in general.

Let's not fear sharing our cautionary tales whenever and however we can. In my experience, as uncomfortable as that has been sometimes as a guest with groups of students in a classroom, in the end it is worth the embarrassment and sweaty armpits, and sometimes I get choked up. Usually I find people are thankful for the heads-up.

Maybe that's the best preventive measure we have available in our country. Tell our stories. Any time that is appropriate.

Otherwise, we'd be stuck with someone "at the top of government" I guess, who would have to decide which groups are destructive cults and which ones are not. Case in point, the Branch Davidians, as that History Channel show pointed out, was a "benign commune" until David Koresh showed up. He took over as prophet and we know the rest of that terrible, devastating story.

I suppose I am rambling, but I just want to say---don't ever stop talking, Grease spotters. Wish me luck for another presentation at another college soon. I need new deodorant!

Enjoy your weekend.

Penworks