penworks

Hello,

I agree with Tazia on this subject -- that religions are cults in one way or another if we use the word "cult" as a religious idea, usually based on a "special person" that people follow and gain a sense of community from doing that.

We just finished watching the History Channel's take on Constantine's political maneuverings and use of the early Christians to stabilize his empire. The show was pretty good in that it reveals how he forced the church elders to agree on what the heck they really believed and which of the many documents (gospels, letters, etc. ) they circulated should be accepted as authoritative, collected, and made official. We call that the making of the biblical canon. It was man-made. Emphasis on MAN.

Of course, the series on the History channel is a simplified and gives its own slightly slanted view of the power of Christianity, but it did offer the unknowing watcher something to think about regarding the sweep of that slice of history.

Let's talk about cults in terms of the Crusades

Too bad about those Crusades, perpetrating evil in the name of Christ. btw...the Spanish Inquisition comes to mind. And we all know from Monty Python that "No one expects the Spanish Inquisition!" When I watch that, I laugh out loud every single time. My husband, too.

So...a few more thoughts. What did me the most good when I left TWI was reading about the formation of the Bible, Christianity, competing beliefs, etc.. I probably sound like a broken record, but I feel strongly about people finding out what their options are before jumping on any religious bandwagon.

Yay for public libraries.

The problem is, many people do not end up in a cult because they are 100% driven by reason or choosing an "option." So trying to "reason a person out of joining a cult" is pretty hard.

I know one person who was on the TWI research team, J*hn Sch*&heit., had been a philosophy major in college and rejected it in favor of "the accuracy of The Word" as fabricated by Wierwille.

So I am thinking that emotion plays a bigger role in cult recruitment than any logical arguments or broader knowledge available from wise folks or from books. Maybe a combo of emotion and reason, like "I want the truth and this guy sounds convincing" happens (that was me). But I think that a need to connect with other likeminded and kind people may be a more a powerful draw than "Truth" offered by cults and religions.

Recently I had a conversation with a Christian college student who has atheist friends and agnostic friends (there is a difference!) . He remarked on how they are moral even without religion, but he wasn't sure what their morality or ethics were based on, if not the commands of the Bible.

Why does that shock people? The student had no idea what Humanism was, or that philosophy offers us a way to navigate the world and be useful, productive, kind, generous, and good for the sake of being good people, not for the sake of gaining rewards in a supposed afterlife.

I tried to explain that for me, living this life on the basis of thinking it is probably the only one I get makes me want to enjoy it and use every minute for the good, if possible.

As an agnostic, I am just not smart enough or enlightened enough to have the certainty (like I used to have in TWI and before that Young Life, and before that in the Catholic church) that so many believers have about their beliefs.

Certainty about what God says or about your religious beliefs/doctrines, in my view, is our enemy.

Certainty (and greed and a host of other stuff) was Constantine's original motivation, as a recent History Channel show pointed out. Constantine was certain God and/or Christ, gave him a sign that he would win the war against his then-enemies. Later, there were Crusades which went on for a few HUNDRED YEARS because they were certain they were right in God's eyes.

IMO, certainty is the thief of democracy. It makes people NOT want to negotiate or compromise or get along. It makes some Christians bomb abortion clinics. It makes some people in politics claim that God is on their side. YIKES. Are we back in the Crusades? What happened to our democracy? Where is our common ground? At least can it be the golden rule? Maybe? Please?

So, I think certainty can be scary.

Last thought...cult prevention, I think, is a better way to go than cult undoing. Once a cult gets going, when people are so convinced they are doing God's will that you can't pry them out (that was me long ago), then the situation gets harder to change. Damage is done. Read the stories here at GSC if you're not convinced.

I'm interested in hearing what other ideas people here might have about preventing cult recruitment.

Got any?

Peace,

Penworks

Thanks guys. This is very helpful.

I probably missed this info somewhere, but about how many might be on staff these days at HQ?

Cheers,

Penworks

Skyrider, just curious about the number, 35,000, who left ... I would like to use that figure.

Can you give me a source?

Good morning.

Last night I wrote my response to the report on this event. This morning it was sent to my website subscribers at 9:00 am.

You can read it at: The Way celebrates 73 anniversary of ... ?

Cheers,

Pen

My oh my. 73 years. How time flies when you're having ..... fun? Fundamentalism?

http://sidneydailynews.com/news/religion/8561/the-way-international-celebrates-73rd-anniversary

Indeed...

Love that quote! Read some of his work in college. Euripides, that is...

BUT, the "answer nothing" part...depends...

"How did the ordination thing work in twi?

http://www.greasespo...ng-work-in-twi/

http://www.greasespo...860#entry414860

"hi all you greasespotters!.............interesting question fooledagain!............i can answer it from my personal experience with twi ordinatiuons as they "progressed" from the fall of 1970 until i left in the winter of 1986.............might help answer your questions up to that point...........

when i first got involved in twi, there were no twi clergy at all in the way east, which was overseen by steve heefner. a former disc jockey, steve was among the first folks recruited during vic's "research" trip to san francisco, to what was known as the house of acts, a "jesus freak" ministry started by jim doop, and steve heefner, among others, in the bay artea of california.

several of those folks attended "summer school" at twi hq in ohio iduring the summer of 1969, and went back to california and founded the way west, headquartered in mill valley, ca.............there was a huge "revival" in california that those folks got going that fall of 1969, which continued through at least 1974..........it was folks who got involved with twi in ca, and simultaneously, in wichita, ks, under the "ministry" of donnie fugit, who came back to westchester county in ny, and nassau and suffolk counties which comprise long island, in ny in the summer of 1970...........

steve heefner came to rye, ny in the fall of 1970 to set up and coordinate what was rapidly developing into the way east, the ny counterpart to the way west, which steve had started with jimmy doop in ca a year earlier........the first way corps of 9 people, also started at summer school of 1970............from the fall of 1970, through probably 1975 or 76, there was also a tremendous "revival" in the way east which spread throughout all of new york and new england, nj and pa.......... the first twi ordinations i witnessed were in november, 1971, when, at a sunday night service, steve heefner, john lynn, and bob moynihan were ordained by vic in the old brc.

ordination in twi at that time, was all done by vic himself, and involved a short little "ceremony", which vic put together, which culminated with his "laying on of hands" upon the head and/or shoulders of the "candidate", who was kneeling before vic and god, then, "bringing forth a word of prophecy" over the candidate while his hands were "laid on him"..............which laying on of hands, we were told, was strictly "by revelation" from god to vic.............these "prophecies" were given "by revelation", not "inspiration", as were the "normal manifestation of prophecy".........during this "prophecy by revelation", we listened closely to hear which "gift ministry" or "ministries" of the five listed in ephesians, were mentioned or "alluded to" in the words of the "prophecy" spoken over each individual candidate by vic.

this was how all in the church were to learn which "gift ministry(ies)" were to be operated by the newly ordained clergyman for the edification of the body of the church...............after the prophecy was given, the new clergy took the "salt covenant", administered to them by vic, to "seal and salt" the "vows" each new clergyman had taken before god and vic, to be a "faithful minister" to the church for life.......this particular ordination service went out as the usual, weekly sns tape........then coffee, cookies, and a "receiving line" of sorts, where the newly ordained clergy would "meet 'n' greet" the congregants, and receive congratulations, etc.............these folks were not corps grads, since there were'nt any yet.

the ordination "service" itself was handled by vic only during those days.........and, it was accepted that the "public" service was really only a "confirmation" of what god had already "ordained" in the lives of those so recognized, and it was assumed that every ordination was "done by revelation" to the mog from god for the body of the church as well as each individual who was ordained...........it was always considered to be a "spiritually heavy" occurrence, and the attitude was one of somber reverence for the candidate especially, as well as for vic........the only "pre-requisite" for ordination at that time was the "revelation" to vic from god to do it.........that was it!

the next ordinations i witnessed were also in the brc at hq, when the first corps graduated in august, 1972............they were done exactly the same way as i described above........i think that nancy duncan was the only woman ordained at that time, ......the rest vwere all the guys........randy anderson, earl burton, gary curtis, del duncan, bo reahard, and mike smith..........there was no such thing as corps week back then, so, these were done at a separate "service" after the first corps graduation itself............then, on to the rock '72!

then, when the second corps graduated in august of 1973, the same was done for them,...............i do not recall which women were ordained at that time, but it was only a few, and i think all the men were ordained.............again, one-at-a-time as described above, each one having vic lay his hands on them individually while "prophesying" over each one individually.........then, salt covenant, as a group,......then, onto roa '73, followed by my first year of in-rez corps "training"....................then, when the third corps graduated, the same "routine", with one major change.............not every male in the third corps was "invited" to be ordained..............which was the first time that occurred..............meaning that, even though they all graduated, obviously not every one had gift ministries according to the "revelation" given vic by god.

this was a noteable difference, and set the stage for what was to become the hierarchical, caste system among the way corps, and eventually the rest of twi.............it was now quite clear, that just because you graduated from the corps, it did not necessarily follow that you had "gift ministries", at the time of graduation, or that you would be ordained prior to "hitting the field"............again, to me, a major change vic pulled off in order to increase corps enrollment, as well as to keep the ordination thing as exclusive as possible despite the growing numbers of corps members in each successive way corps "class".

during my first in-rez year, '73-'74, it was decided that there would be, for the first time, an "interim" or "practicum year" added to the corps training, which up until then had been two consecutive years in-rez, followed by graduation...........since we were the first to "volunteer" for this, the fourth corps was given the option of doing both in-rez years consecutively, then an interim/practicum year "on-the-field" or on staff somewhere, or, to take the second year of the three as an interim/practicum year "on-the-field" somewhere or on staff, and then return in august, 1975, for our final in-rez year at hq...........of course, this meant we had to "make arrangements" for another full year of "corps sponsorship" among our sponsors, who had "signed on" for two years only when we first started, or scrounge up new sponsors.........either way, the money had to be there!

when the fouth corps graduated in august, 1976, for the first time, there were no ordinations of any of the new corps grads...........another significant change vic slipped in...........the first 4th corps ordinations took place after pfal 77, and after the rock '77................they were still performed only by vic himself, in the same manner described above, only they were done away from hq, at the end of the "weekend-in-the-word" events held in the 7 official regions of the way of the usa at that time, during the corps meetings that were held on the sunday evenings of those weekends after all the "believers" had departed for home.................i was ordained on 10/16/1977, in the blackstone hotel, on michigan ave., in chicago.

this was considered an especially poignant event, because it was this same blackstone hotel in chicago, on michigan ave., where vic supposedly "practiced" the revelation manifestations, where, as he recounted in most advanced classes, god showed him who was born again or not by revealing to him a "white heart" in those who were christians, and a "black heart" in those who were not born again, or who were "possessed by devil spirits"!.

my ordination was done in the same manner described above, where i kneeled before vic, and he "laid his hands" on my head and shoulders, prophesied "by revelation" over me, and then, had me stand, while he went on to the next "candidate"...............ordained with me that night were wayne merrill, steve sann, and ken standage..............each as described above.............and then we all took the salt covenant together............vic had each of our prophecies taped for us so we could listen later, to hear which "gift ministries" we each had, and were supposed to faithfully "operate" for the rest of our lives!................there were still no corps weeks at this time.............and, vic still personally "handled" every ordination that was done here in the USA.

the 5th corps was the first to all do their interim year during the second year of the now three-year corps program, and then return for their final in-rez year at the emporia campus............the sixth corps was the first one to be centered at emporia for both in-rez years, with various "blocks" of time spent at hq and the indiana campus with the family corps...............and, the 6th was the first large group of well over 300 corps "volunteers"..........i think the first corps week was in 1979, IIRC............someone correct me if i'm wrong..............by then there were 8 regions in the usa, and, after august, 1982 there were 10.............during the "40th anniversary year" of 1981-82, ordinations took place at the end of various of the "anniversary weekends" which were staged in the 8 different regions that year.........much in the same way they were done after the weekends in the word during '77-'78...............by "invitation only" from vic, and officiated by vic.

it may have been at the corps week in 1982, where, for the first time, candidates for ordination were "nominated" by the limb and region leadership "on-the-field", and by the various president's cabinet members at hq, and the "executive committee" at each "root locale".........the "nominated candidates" were "screened/reviewed" by the heads of each of the various "leadership" groups, and final decisions were made after the bot, along with those who participated in the annual "corps placement meetings", discussed each indiuvidual who was nominated, and if there was indeed, a genuine "need" in the church body served by that individual for an ordained clergyperson.............once those decisions were reached, the "nominees" were officially "invited" to be ordained, and, for the first time, vic was not to be personally involved with the "laying on of hands and prophecy" of each individual.

rather, each individual was instructed to "prayerfully consider" which previously ordained clergyperson was to "officiate" over the individual's ordination, to be held simultaneously, as a group, in the main tent on the "corps night" of that week...............a major change from vic doing each ordination himself!.........this presumed that each "candidate" trusted the individual clergyperson he/she chose to "get the revelation" regarding the presence or non-presence of "gift ministry(ies)", and get it right!.........major decentalization here!.........after the "laying on of hands and prophecy", the salt covenat was administered simultaneously to all who had "made their vows"........this is pretty much the way ordination in twi was handled from then on, until i resigned "my commission" in 1986.................although this process never precluded vic from ordaining anyone he chose, or anyone "god told him to" ordain, any time or any where he wanted to................

whatever happened after december,1986 concerning ordination in twi, i have no clue.............but, i'm sure it never got any "better"!!..........hope that answers your questions..............if not, feel free to ask more................................peace. "

Hi, it's Charlene here, just to say that this account nails the phenomenon. Thank you, DWBH. Just one little change.. The Second Corps men were ordained after one year on the field post graduation. So graduation was '73, ordination was '74.

"Rev" gerry was in da 2nd corpse with Charlene and his first wife, Su3 Wil$on. He runs the single most smarmy, over-schmalzed, wierwille worship offshoot of them all, imo. As a matter of fact, just today, on his FB page, he was trying to pull off a repeat as the mighty east coast USA hurricane stopper by "rebuking" Joaquin from the Carolina and Virginia coasts. When he was the limp coordinator in FL, he claimed to have surrounded the entire state of FL with a "ring of angels" to protect God's people,(and nobody else) from one of those big hurricanes like Andrew or Ivan or some such. Always made me scratch my head in disbelief when jerks like dictor paul and his faithful son, "rev" gerry would "glorify Gawd" with tales of how "every house in the neighborhood was blown or flooded away EXCEPT for where the deluded wayfers lived because of their super-powerful, rightly-divided, christ-in-you, believing prayers. And, then take credit for "how much worse it would have been for all those poor, sub-human natural men and unbelievers had it not been for that ring of angels "rev" gerry commanded into action in the name of Jesus Christ, Amen! See why you should keep sending me your $?? So, in effect, "rev" gerry et al are teaching the mind numbed ex-wayfers that, the love of God in the renewed in manifestation DOES INDEED rejoice in iniquity!"

Just thought the GSC community might be interested in examining today's latest from "rev" gerry himself. Judge for yourself and tell us all what you think. I am most interested in your thoughts, opinions, and emotions when you read it. TY. Pray for my son please. His fantasy football teams are getting crunched on this longest NFL game day evah!

"Dearly beloved, it is Sunday and we are still here, Joaquin or not. We can still pray for our brethren along the coast and the resulting flooding from the hurricane.

From our exalted position in Christ in the spiritual realm, we can exercise the mighty power entrusted to us for good, for deliverance.

Ephesians 3:20 WT

Now to Him Who is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we request or think about, according to the power that works in us,

In Christ, we are complete, filled to the full. We are strengthened with the power of his spirit. It is all in all of us. Because of this, we can be strong in the Lord and in the strength of his exerted ability for us.

Our Father blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly realm in Christ. We are seated there in Christ, we walk in this realm, and we must stand in this realm as the mighty sons of God we are. The day is swiftly coming that we will stand there when our Lord returns for us.

Our wrestling is in the spiritual realm beloved, against the strategies of the god of this world, the devil, and against the spirits of wickedness in the heavenly realm - not against the senses realm. As we would train if we were in a physical wrestling match, we must train to compete in the wrestling match in the spiritual realm. Ephesians 6:10 and following lays it out for us.

The key to igniting the power of God in us is the renewing of the mind: thinking God's thoughts so we can prove His will, believing God's Word concerning who we are in Christ so we are able to extinguish all the fiery darts of the wicked one, standing in the contest in which we wrestle.

Beloved, look at situations from God's perspective, from His vantage point in the heavenly realm.

We are enabled men and women in Christ. Pray always with every prayer in the spirit and stay on watch with all perseverance concerning them for all saints.

Dear ones, exercise yourself unto godliness: that real, true, vital, spiritual relationship with God in the spiritual realm."

Well, all I can say is: this is a broken record of VPW self-serving rhetoric.

Fascinating background about JAL. I appreciate your telling us your part in the spin-off situations and how that all played out. In 1987 when I left TWI, JAL came to Orlando to run a meeting and asked to stay with us overnight. We were not interested in his new ministry gig but said sure, hospitality being something we still liked to offer. JAL and I had a conversation. He hoped to win me over to his new gig. I challenged him. "If I'm going to go around saying 'thus saith the Lord' about anything, I want to be sure about what I'm saying, and at this point, I'm not sure about anything." My sense was, and still is, that any accuracy of the Bible was a pipe dream. The cannon of Scripture varies, so right there we have a slippery slope.

Later, the more I read and thought and pondered and wondered and re-read, I figured the path I was most at peace about taking was aiming me towards agnosticism. Now, I'm getting off topic...

Back to JAL

When I was recruited at ECU, he and P#t were the state leaders of N.C. There was no Way Tree yet. That invention came later. The guys who lived in the Way Home with JAL and P#t were students at ECU in training to enter the Way Corps. Many of them are mentioned here at GSC (E8rl B*rton, G#erald W#enn, D*ke Clar$, etc.)

They had a schedule that included communal study, witnessing, and running the coffeehouse on Saturday night. Some of this is reported in book, The Way: Living in Love, by El#na White&ide.

...Just as an aside, El#na did not ask any of us who ended up in that book whether she could use our real names. For some people, she used both their first and last names. For me, only my first, Charlene...this gets interesting because of all the different paths taken by people in the book after they left TWI....

Anyhow, JAL at ECU (oh, don't we love the acronyms) was on a roll. He is still on it. When I watched a few minutes of his recent YouTube gig, I had flashbacks. He has not changed his kindergarten-like-explaining tone of voice or mannerisms. I, too, am sorry he is suffering with an illness these days. He meant well during those years that I first knew him, but there must have been something he felt he had to prove by sticking with the fundie thing so long.

Cheers,

Pen

Just curious about Ermal's part in VPW's agenda. He never said much. The first time I met VPW, Ermal and Harry W. were with him. They are in the motorcycle shed on the cold November day I arrived from ECU for a women's advance, 1971. That scene is part of an early chapter in my book. Yikes. Where is the publisher I need for my book? Hellllooo.

Don't worry Greasespotters, I will find one. And I do not plan on begging. Anyone with a sound mind and paying attention to the news every day realizes a topic like, Seventeen Years in a Fundamentalist Cult, just might, well...might be a hot topic OR something to help people get to sleep. Depends on your point of view.

Cheers,

Pen

DWBH - I known that vpw did not have a basketball career, it was a joke on vpw's ascertation to the fact - googling it too is a joke as I don't need to search for info that has already been revealed. The joke I was attempting to make was why the comparison to baseball when it should be basketball because of vpw.

DWBH, you ask: How long ago was I in twit; I was in twi from 1972 to 1977.

DWBH: What's your point regarding how long ago I was in twit?

I don't know about DWBH, but count me in as curious about when you were "in" TWI. And whether you are "in" an offshoot. Just curious. My cats taught me to be curious. I blame them.

hey just got around to reading that blog. nice article and resources. on your book i don't know your situation but self publishing through lulu.com is a great way to go getting things out to a small audience and getting up and running quickly.

Oh, thanks chockfull, for the Lulu idea. Yes, they are good. I think our old friend C&*istian Abr***m used it to publish his two books. One is, The Secret Curse Surrenders. Loved that. But prepare yourself for a wild ride into Indiana Campus-land...

Anyway, I may go that route. There are a few irons in the fire.

Cheers,

Pen

Yeah, Victor Bernard. Yikes. This talk show on YouTube really stirred things up. Let's hope it got some viewers thinking...

I mentioned VB in a blog post recently.

http://charleneedge....flage-of-cults/

Steve mentioned the problem of "the artificial language we used to distinguish ourselves from outsiders."

I like that point.

Identify that artificial language (I call jargon) and you're half way out of TWI. The other half of the way out is to break the habits (behavior) that issued from that false identity built by the jargon. Like a house of cards, one flick of the finger and it all begins to fall.

Also kick the habit or the compulsive feeling that you have to preach that artificial language. At this point, I'm referring to the evangelism of offshoot TWI folks who have not stopped to examine their jargon. What would happen if they just sat down and thought about the implications of what they are perpetrating? Does it promote bigotry or expose it?

I know many TWI offshoot leaders from way back. If any of you are reading this, may I suggest taking some time off from promoting second-hand stuff from TWI and quietly examining what it means. Ask yourself, is this the kind of world I want to be a part of...one that pits people against each other using religious beliefs?

Anyhow, perfectly happy people run the offshoots, and they feel they are fulfilling what they're supposed to do on the planet. But maybe, just maybe they might admit to a tiny doubt about that. Maybe they'll ask themselves, What's the worst that can happen if one of those teeny doubts turns out to be true? Change is possible. But like getting old, it ain't for sissies.

Thanks, Chockfull. It's taken a lot of work to get to where I am now. After I got M&A'd I spent ten years down the bottom of a deep dark miserable well, unable to face life, people, anything and anyone. The lost years, I call that time.

Then, extreme misery compelled me to act and I was going to crawl over broken glass or whatever, to get back to TWI. Instead, I got waylaid by GSC. And I started to heal, started to recover my thinking capacity, started to feel the warmth of God's love. Lots of miraculous things happened to me then. Like God was showering me with all that love and those gifts that I'd been hiding from before, when I was down that well. He found me a church where there was space to just be, gentle kind people, great teaching... People, strangers, befriended me and made space for me in their lives and in their homes. :knuddel:/>/> I said weird cult-head things :redface:/>/>, got strange looks :blink:/>/>, but nobody tore my head off for not group-thinking. :rolleyes:/>/> My pre-TWI friends and family welcomed "me" back. :eusa_clap:/>/>

Long-term, I don't think my "identity" - my core being - has changed except to get back to where it was, the person I used to be before TWI got its hooks into me - but my "identity" is deeper and richer and with more to give now. More compassion and understanding for underprivileged and beaten-down people. And a lot more peace of heart.

Still some big confusions; maybe everyone has those? None of us really has all the answers!

Life is very good :dance:/>/>.

Oh man, this made me weep. So happy to be here with such a brave person as yourself...and so many others.

Cheers to you,

Pen

Well, I don't know about the rest of you from my "generation of TWI followers" but I feel sick about the lack of adult responsibility that Dana's story brings to light. I keep thinking about it over and over.

IMO every parent who dumped TWI dogma and TWI-style behavior, i.e. denigrating others of different beliefs among other gross things, on their kids, is responsible for helping their children recover from the bigotry. I don't see any attempt by the minister who did the memorial service for Dana's father taking any responsibility to help Dana.

There is much trouble, with a capital T. People like Dana's mother may not have the strength or understanding yet, to instruct her children. Well, I hope we welcome her here if she ever arrives, and that we don't throw stones at her. Weren't some of us in the same boat of denial as she was while we were enraptured with TWI?

So, I wonder how the GSC community can fill the gap of offering informed -- informed! -- counsel for this next generation of kids damaged to one degree or another by the behavior of their brainwashed parents? Are we offering that here, or do we argue back and forth about man-made dogmas, out-of-context Bible verses, and worn out plagiarized interpretations of Scripture masquerading as truth? If we keep dragging the kind of Christianity that the apostle Paul invented into every conversation we will never unwrap ourselves from our problems.

I don't care who we are, have we said to our children in the privacy of our own homes, "I'm deeply sorry I fed you the bigotry of TWI, which in large measure is based not only on VPW's craziness, but also on St. Paul's brand of Christianity, yes, ohmygod, just read the verses where he turned people over to Satan for disagreeing with him.

Can we say, "I will get myself educated about what happened to me in Wierwille's cult, and I will try and share what I've learned with my child."

Will more children (now adults with their own children, like Dana) have to come here among strangers to learn the truth about what happened in their parents' lives? I would be at the very least embarrassed, but more like stricken with guilt, if my daughter had to learn all this truth which is largely terrible dirt about TWI, from other people, not from her own mother.

And oh yeah, have I owned up to my part in all the past crap? Have I tried to make amends?

I realize I am probably preaching to the choir tonight. But I guess sometimes choir members are the only ones around to listen...

Penworks

When I was in-rez at Gunnison, and I had a little time to myself, I'd sneak up into the library... nobody else ever went there... and read the reproductions of old dime novels that were there.

Love,

Steve

That was a great use of free time. Novels! I had no idea they had any out there in CO.

"What exactly was ever a secret about The Way? Any wrong-doings The Way did, the followers everywhere knew about. At least since before I was born."

Being much younger than me, I can understand why it may seem that way to you. (I took the class as an adult in 1972.) Really, though, many of us didn't know much of what was going on behind the scenes. Sure, we would see this leader or that do things that appeared suspicious. Speaking for myself, I thought some of these shenanigans were one-off events. In fact, that's how LCM tried to play it off when he was exposed. I had no idea how widespread the problems were. And, you can't go playing snitch to the leadership just because you have a suspicion. I discussed that in another post, earlier today. (Just the Facts by Dana Fort/post #49)

These things were carefully hidden from the rank and file believers in local areas. It took participation in a training program, where you have to stay in character 24/7, for me to even get a glimpse of what was beginning to look fishy to me. And that was just a peek.

So, when you say "Any wrong-doings The Way did, the followers everywhere knew about.", I have to strongly disagree with you. Even as these posts appear, there is a remnant of the old-timers and some of their recruits who STILL refuse to accept the reality of it all.

I was just getting ready to type a similar reply, but Waysider responded first. Ditto.

One question, maybe I missed this, but when were you involved in TWI, Bolshevik?

Life is seldom as straight forward as we would like it to be. Suppose there is someone at work you suspect of stealing. You have a pretty solid idea they are but you have no way to prove it. Then again, maybe you're mistaken. Maybe you've misinterpreted something. What do you do? Who do you tell? You certainly can't just blatantly accuse them. Do you approach a superior? Maybe the superior is part of the problem. Then what? This is the sort of scenarios that played out in The Way training programs. People who did speak out and seek advise from superiors were often quickly removed from the picture. It's really a false assumption that people didn't speak out. The "adultery paper" is but one example.

So, you put those sort of thoughts on the back burner, and with little time for introspection, and in a state of constant sleep deprivation, they are eventually forgotten. These are some of the things that people don't always quite understand when they wonder why someone didn't "just say something".

Thanks for explaining the situation so clearly. It really does shed light on how some of us didn't recognize the scarlet flags for what they were, even though they were flying all around . When you're focused on some things over here, you can't pay attention to other things over there, much less recognize that distant blurry picture for what it is out the corner of your eye.

We women were subjected to the same things discussed here on this thread, and, in other places in the Cafe. If you were married, you had something else added making it a double whammy. It was the S- word.........submit!

It's not supposed to be some terrible thing. I think you all know about this, we were taught it fairly often. Basically, it means that the wife gives deference to the husband in all things. They will discuss things, and if there is no agreement between the 2, the husband has the final say. We were also taught that whatever the husband said was to be taken as if it was law. He was the head over the woman just as Christ was the head of the church. That makes a lot of sense to me. The problem occurs when the husband really takes to this "submit" policy. For a time, I was in this situation and so my identity was that I was no better than a slave.

Old habits sometimes die hard. That was the situation with this. It took several years after we left until it began to resolve itself into a more normal husband-wife relationship.

I was married in The Way, too. Married a fellow 2nd Corps, had a baby, and stayed in the marriage despite several separations over the years. Three or so years after we left TWI, we divorced. While in TWI, as a wife I took "stand by your man no matter what" to the limit. To do that, I was in denial about my own sense of what I wanted and needed most of the time. Denial, more than anything, ran my life. I had given up what some call "agency" which could have helped me steer my life onto a better path.

Married women were not the same as single women in the eyes of God, evidently. Wierwille used a diagram to show where the married woman stood with God. He used a 90-degree triangle to illustrate God at the top corner and the line that dropped below it led to the husband. The bottom line of the triangle, from the husband, led over to the right where the wife was designated. So the idea was that the wife was off to the side. She "went through" the husband to get to God. But the slanted line from her up and over to God was "direct" too, only not as direct as the husband's. At least that was my understanding. Does anyone else remember this ridiculous-ness?

so 20 years down the road from this point we don't have any more stories like Dana's. or mine. or yours. or any of ours.

I sure hope not! But we will do our best to deter them from happening...

Okay. I think I got it. Sometimes the truth stinks and yet we ache to know it...and often we need to for our own sanity and healing process.

I hope that this thread, in response to Dana Fort's heartbreaking story, sheds more light on things, especially for her, since she started questioning the truthfulness of the whitewashed history of TWI she grew up with.

It is difficult, I know, to have to dredge this crappola out of the shed and into the sunshine for newbies like Dana who never heard any of this...I appreciate the energy it took for you, DWBH, to write this up, down, and sideways. It is draining. It is sickening to have to think about it all again. Go take a break and breathe long yoga breaths. That's what I do...

Cheers,

Penworks

:blink:/>/>

PS - If I were the website creator for TWI, I wouldn't mention his name, either.

Hello. I'd like to step in and remind readers that some of us here are agnostics (I am) or atheists or whatever else who feel a moral obligation to speak up on topics pertaining to TWI and on our experiences in the group. We many not be Christians any more, but we have some perspectives that can help people decide whether to join The Way or get out of it, or stay away from offshoot groups who say they've fixed Way problems so their spin-off is better.

In my view, these spin-off groups are still perpetuating fundamentalism and cult-ish attitudes of "my interpretation of the Bible is right, yours is not."

DWBH and I share that moral compass that points us in the direction of speaking up, so do many others here. Calling out TWI policies and actions, and calling out former "public" leaders from the group who wielded their influence and caused harm, is part of a whistleblower's responsibility. Any of the offshoot leaders, etc., or staff at HQ are welcome to come here and debate, as I understand it.

Part of what I do, as it has evolved, has also been to interpret to the outside world (my friends who never heard of The Way and want to understand me) just what the heck we're talking about at this site (as in website) and our journeys as former-Way followers trying to recover.

One problem I face while "interpreting" is understanding where TWI "is at" these days at headquarters regarding this specific issue: Is their reluctance to put VPW's name on their website a court-ordered decision? A choice made from shame? A choice made...why?

Last month I wrote a letter to the Way Information Center, which is how you contact The Way these days, and asked that question. I sent the letter certified mail. No one has replied...yet. I thought it was only fair to give them a chance to say something about that. I am considering writing an article about the glaring absence of VPW from the website of the cult he started.

So, DWBH, I need a little more help. Could you clarify your view on the reason they don't mention VPW on their site? You left me with the impression they would be shooting themselves in the foot because so many people know about VP and LCM delinquency (understatement) issues that it makes the current iteration of The Way in New Knoxville want to disassociate from those men. The site says the group was founded in 1942. What is an outsider to make of a site that does not credit their founder or praise him like they used to? It is clear from other internet sites that VPW started The Way. It takes 2 seconds to discover that fact. What is up at HQ? Really.

I'd like some non-insider jargon to explain this to people who, for instance, are reading my blog.

Thanks,

Penworks

If your intuition or common sense told you it was foolish to allow certain people into your home, you were led to believe you were the one at fault for thinking negatively, entertaining devilish thoughts.That's contrary to the way it's supposed to work.

It was a catch-22 situation. We should love the untouchables like Christ did, yet deny any inner wisdom we had about protecting ourselves because the Bible said we were more than conquerors and should fear nothing.

DWBH, you make the above allegation - but how do you know this?

I'd like to know about this, too, if it is not a secret that DWBH can reveal that might jeopardize his identity to outsiders...or insiders...or whomever...

For years, night after night.....3X a week, many of us opened our doors for those who wanted to attend twig fellowship. Yep, we vacuumed the carpets, moved the furniture around, set out songbooks, spent money at the grocery store for refreshments, baked cookies, welcomed guests, taught fellowships........and when the last person left, we cleaned up the kitchen.

Then.....we did it a day or two later. Year after year.

Under the twi banner, we were a home-based outfit......meaning, my wife and I generously gave our love, time and effort to help build twi and support its mission statement "word over the world." Week after week, year after year.....we freely gave financially, physically, emotionally and "spiritually."

The average week

Sunday......10am fellowship

Monday......7pm Twig Fellowship Coordinators Mtg

Tuesday.....7pm Twig

Thursday....7pm Twig

All of those meetings took work.......heck, at hdqtrs those people get PAID A SALARY for doing meetings. :anim-smile:/>/>/>/>/>/>/>/>/>

But on the field, not so much. When your vacuum cleaner breaks, you go buy a new one at your expense.

When some weirdo pees on your couch [like what happened on WOW field]...its got to get cleaned.

Add all the paper plates, napkins, paper towels, toilet paper, etc. etc. and it starts adding up.

And, add extra air conditioning costs during classes in one's home.

Surely, the trustees/twi THANKED US over and over again for all our labor.......pppfffttt.

On the contrary, we were confronted for not doing MORE.....or witnessing MORE.

What if there was a MIGRATION MARCH of the tens of thousands who have helped twi thru the years

and wanted to move to a place that would surely help during tough times? I mean, with $57 MILLION in

assets and all.....twi would surely be willing to help thousands upon thousands who'd faithfully given

abs to them and ran fellowships. They would want to set the example of OPENING THEIR HOMES AND THEIR

REGRIGERATORS.......right?

How many would twi house and feed [for a couple of years anyways] to help people get on their feet?

.

A few thoughts...

This topic of grunt work in service to VP's agenda is vital to understanding his power of persuasion. Thanks for bringing up the topic...hospitality, a good quality, was made into a grind for many of us. Everything in the house had to be spic n' span before fellowships.

I remember arriving in L.A. after graduating from the 2nd Corps. My fulltime job was keeping our apartment (I had just married another 2nd Corps person) in showcase-style for meeting after meeting. I loved the believers, but the cleaning thing, geez....but I'd learned amazing cleaning skills in the Corps. Cleaning should have been one of the Corps principles for we surely attained the goal of being experts at it.

As for opening my home, more than the expenses of running a fellowship, I think there is no price tag I can put on the risks we took by having strangers in our house, especially when our baby came along...

I think of the sexism of "the refreshments lady," mentioned above. That seemed like such a minor task but it was not. I don't remember a "refreshments guy," but there probably was somewhere in some WOW family...

So what do TWI representatives have to say about all the risks we took to build the empire of $64,791,485 (million) in assets listed on their 2013 tax return? Thank you?

There is a 147-acre farm on the outskirts of New Knoxville, Ohio, owned by a non-profit organization that pays no taxes. That tax money could help the community in which it exists.

If religion is supposed to help you be a better person, how is TWI doing that? I guess the anonymous testimonies on the TWI web site are meant to be convincing, but these days, I suspect that most readers on the internet doubt the value of such flattering quotes attributed to no one.

There is not one word about Wierwille on their website, either. Very interesting...why not give credit to their mighty man of god?

Peace,

Penworks

Charlene.....

Wonderful piece, as usual, from your blog.

In response to your invitation for input, I submit the following for your consideration along with that of The Greasespot community. As you, I too am interested in opinions, comments, snide remarks about what I post. Thank you all for the same.

Identity theft in terms of "how did vic affect my identity formation"? Very interesting question. It requires intense self-reflection and introspection, neither highly objective when dealing with such fundamentally crucial issues of being human. The process of identity formation is a lifelong process. It has been studied, analyzed, digitalized, and described often, by various scientific, sociologic, and psychiatric disciplines. One well-known Behavioral Psycholgist has described a lifelong process of Human Developmental Stages by identifying 8 different stages spanning a typical human lifespan of 76-80 years in the populations of "developed" nations. The critical stage we're specifically addressing here is called "Identity Formation", and the thesis identifies the typical age range or time period of this stage as taking place during the ages of 20-32.

If one looks back at the common experience many of those of us involved deeply with vic's way, it is not surprising that many of us devoted those years of critical identity formation to activities like fellowship, WOW, and most deadly, the way corpse "training". Here in the Uniied States, the average person between the ages of 20-32 is doing what? Attending and graduating from college or trade school, leaving home and striking out on their own, developing a sexual , social, and intellectual identity, experience profound relationships with males and females inside and outside the nuclear family. Decisions like career/profession, marriage or not, children or not, more education or different education or not, travel.......all those things, kind of bubble, bubble, toil and trouble around for 10-12 years and badda-bing, there we are approaching middle age before we even know it.......LOL!

Now, throw all that onto the "WOW field" or into "The Way Corps", under the totaltalitarian control of a paranoid narcissistic sociopath, serial sexual abuser and rapist, alcoholic Nazi, and ask yourself, "might that have had any influence on any of those identity formation activities and choices we made during that critical stage of human development? What was the answer? Obvious I suppose. It was for me.

That is why the process of actually disentangling oneself from a cult, (talk about quantum entanglement!), can be very difficult, because it is an identity crisis. Who am I? Why am I here? What am I "supposed" to DO? The cult and it's totalitarian leader answered every one of those questions over and over and over again for us. Vic reproduced his perverted, pathological brand of christianity in as many as he could hoodwink and manipulate it into. He was skilled at selecting the hundreds of victims of his serial rapist lifestyle. His "teachings" were all designed to reproduce the pathological Aryan behavior and thinking that governed vic and therefore governed the way. That is what governed the indoctrination and success of the "training". It is also what governed and influenced the "volunteers" and the life-choices they made during that stage of identity formation.

The developmental stage immediately prior to identity formation is Adolescence. Age ranged described as typically age 12-20. The "art" of vic's sociopathic skills, and really those of all totalist systems, is to maintain the follower in the psychoemotional stage of adolescence in order to gain complete control over the entire stage of identity formation. A kind if "forced" or "imposed" adolescence so to speak. Look at the amount of influence such totalist control can bring to bear upon a human being stuck in adolescence for 10, 20, 30, 40, or 50 years?!!

One soon discovers that one's entire identity has been formed by group think and acceptance of the perverted, pathological lifestyle of a drunken Nazi. Now THAT can be disturbing!

But, more disturbing is the difficulty many cult refugees face in summoning up the personal and/moral courage required for identity re-formation. It can be a daunting task, and many often find themselves unable to honestly deal with it. It can and often does become dysfunctional.

So, that's my input Charlene and fellow Greasespotters. Whaddya think?

Many thanks for taking the time to respond like this and include the valuable info on developmental stages. Bingo. That tender age window is what made many of us so vulnerable to VPW and his indoctrination.

I think those of us in The Corps were probably changed more and in worse ways than anyone associated with TWI. Ever.

Last thought for now: I have heard that counselors these days evidently shy away from using the term "arrested development" to describe what you described above so well, but I think that term is very useful. Grow up and think for yourself, was my mantra after leaving TWI. It pushed me to examine, think, and think about what I was thinking. That's one reason I like it here. People try to think about what they are thinking and decide whether it's good or not, bigoted or not, loving or not, true or not.

Cheers and thanks for all the insights. You guys are wonderful,

Penworks