penworks

Wouldn't matter if there was. First amendment, ya know.

It would be an extremely difficult thing to put any kind of parameters or legal limitations other than already existing laws that address issues not necessarily inherent to religious worship, like polygamy or human sacrifice.

If some practice comes up that requires society deal with it, that practice would be targeted rather than the religion.

Right. It's the action that gets evaluated by the law, not the belief behind it, right?

If anyone's interested there's a book called, Cults, Culture and the Law: Perspectives on New Religious Movements, edited by Thomas Robbins, WIlliam C. Shepherd, and James McBride. Scholars Press, Chico, CA. It's put out by the American Academy of Religious Studies in Religion.

TWI is mentioned in this book on pg. 111 in the chapter titled, "Cults and Conversion: The Case for Informed Consent" by Richard Delgado. Here is a little bit from it:

"Values of self-determination already play a significant role in the debate about religious cultism. On a rhetorical level, defenders of these groups [cults] ask why young adults should not be free to join whatever religious organizations they desire. Opponents respond that free choice is exactly what these groups deny. Constitutional analysis of state intervention raises consent issues, as do tort and criminal actions brought by cult members after unsuccessful deprogrammings, and suits by ex-members against cult leaders for unlawful imprisonment, slavery, intentional infliction of emotional distress, and fraud."

Delgado goes on to advocate for a consent agreement when a person joins a group, meaning the group gives full disclosure about its intentions, beliefs, etc. and the new recruit agrees to it.

I know I laughed out loud when I read this article because it seems to me that groups like "cults" do not reveal their true nature right off the bat. Usually it is camouflaged by statements like, "we do biblical research" while in the back room they have people pretending to do that, or at least doing something they CALL biblical research as defined by the cult.

What do you all think? Do you think a group could even be required by law to deliver a consent form for recruits to sign? And what if a recruit signed it? What exactly would that mean for that person's life?

Rocky,

I agree that the "do surgery on Waybrain" section was helpful. Specific insider language helped created Wayworld. Identifying how VPW redefined words and concepts to suit his goals was a huge part of my recovery. Examples include "legal." That did not mean what it normally means in society: i.e. abiding by the law of the land. In Wayworld, it meant the law of the Old Testament. So because VPW touted we were "free in Christ," so anyone who abided by the 10 commandments, for instance, was "legal" or "legalistic." Further, they were "living according to the wrong administration." since VPW said we were living in the "grace administration." These divisions are one way that bible teachers use to account for what most readers see as contradictions in the Bible.

VPW got that "administration" theory (also called dispensationalism) from a bunch of others like Bullinger and John Nelson Darby , an Anglo-Irish Bible teacher from the 1800s.

I digress ... I think John Juedes is amazing in that he's stuck with analyzing The Way for so long and has provided so much helpful info to so many of us. I have thanked him for that. Hope ya'll have, too.

What I would caution people about, however, is that he believes people leaving TWI should seek a Christian avenue for fellowship etc. That may be helpful and appropriate for some, but not all.

That path is not necessarily the best for every single person who leaves TWI. Just sayin'.

Cheers!

Penworks

We were bullied.

Time and time again, we were bullied and conditioned against our better judgment

to follow wierwille's (martindale/geer/rivenbark) lead.

Even when these teachings were at cross-purposes with practical realities,

common sense and traditional norms:

1) Individual boundaries and advancement

2) Education and career choices

3) Christian faith and moral fiber

4) Family and good parenting

5) Investment and homeownership

6) Friends, neighbors and social networking

7) Goals, financial planning and retirement

8) Etc. etc.

In 1985, wierwille died......and the corps breathed fresh air again.

The bully was dead....and it was amazing how quickly things changed.

The movement was NOT real. The thug died and the chains broke.

And, most were not going to let bully jr. geer into our playground.

Isn't it amazing how much power lies in a bully pulpit

in the name of "christianity?"

Ditto. As for the title of this thread, I would delete the word "spiritual" as the adjective for bully.

Yeah.....ain't that the truth.

And, still others....the only way they could deal with the bully was avoidance.

So many just knew that their best strategy was to NOT CONFRONT THE BULLY,

but to just "leave the playground" and find another spot.

I vividly remember men like John R@ce, Ambassador One pilot.....

who just up and abruptly left twi. And, Mike Sm!th, First Corps

who headed to Alaska in June 1982. Yeah.....ALASKA. lol

Seems like some just wanted to put as much distance as possible for the life

that they WERE NOW CHOOSING.

Looking back, I now see why certain men fell in line while others didn't.

Wierwille took to manipulation like a duck takes to water.

Several other abrupt "defectors" include VPW's motorcoach driver, C*uck *cher. He was there one day and gone the next. I think that was in 1977 or so ... he left with the wife of one of the guys in Joyful Noise. Hush hush ...

Would John Juedes' site be of help?

My linkhttp://www.empirenet.com/~messiah7/cultsthe.htm

Ditto. I think the good thing about this site John Juedes' has is that he identifies himself. Also, Karl Kahler's book is full of information well documented.

Here's my two cents on this topic:

I found references to The Way simply by going to public and college libraries and looking through books about cults or new religions, etc. and checking the Index in each book. It is time consuming, but hey, if you want to dig, you gotta get out a shovel and put some elbow grease into it, as my dad used to say ...

One example was in a library in Amsterdam! Here's my blog post about finding Melton's book there: http://charleneedge....-library-treat/

Another one is a book from the AAR Studies in Religion 36 volume. The name is: Cults, Culture, and the Law: Perspectives on New Religious Movements. Published by Scholars Press, Chico, CA. 1985. Edited by Thomas Robbins, William C. Shepherd, and James McBride. The Way Int'l is cited on four different pages.

A word of caution about using quotes from this site. Most posters here use a fake name, so to outsiders, sometimes that detracts from the veracity of the stories here. In other words, they could be ghost stories. I don't have that attitude because I was in the group and can pretty much tell if something is bogus (but not all the time, I'm sure), but without an insider's knowledge, outsiders would not be able to sniff things out so well. Maybe ...

Good luck,

Charlene

Seth,

I read your comment under the article on the newspaper's site.

I was sorry to read it.

You said, "I absolutely hate those people, if they all died today I wouldn't shed a tear."

When we say we hate people, it does not help our efforts here at GSC in raising awareness of TWI but I realize you were only speaking for yourself.

IMO, hatefulness might be what TWI leaders are/were about. But it is not what I am about. And I don't think most greasespotters are into keeping hate in their hearts for anyone. But maybe I am wrong. I think hate breeds hate. We may not love TWI leaders who abused us and others, but hate is pretty strong stuff ... I shy away from it. But that's just me ...

Ditto, WordWolf.

" What I find amazing is that the testimony and teaching of someone who never met the guy and who wasn't taught by anyone who had was given...well...more importance than the guy who was the reason for the whole movement."

THIS!!

:eusa_clap:/>

And what I find amazing is that all what we know about "the guy who was the reason for the whole movement" is based on what a few people say he did or say he said. And they do not all agree all the time. Or am I wrong about this?

I remember a lot of time spent on the distinction between "household" (TWI) and "family" (Christians, in general); but I think most of that was in the LCM years.

George

Actually, the family/household delineation originated with VP . I was involved 1970-1987 and during that time I heard him make that sort of distinction over and over.

Once upon a time there was a brouhaha (not sure if that is the correct spelling) :-) about "household" and "family" within the Satellite Research Group, which included the research team at HQ but others were involved, too. If you check the Way magazines in the early 1980s, you'll find a Believer's Pledge of Allegiance that was a result of it. We are one household under God, etc. etc.

Anyhow, it is all rubbish. Another sort of rubbish is that this distinction that Wierwille made is denied by Wierwille loyalists who blame everything wrong with The Way on Martindale who has been discredited over and over anyway. Wrong. VP began the entire Way ball rolling and it rolls on today in the off-shoots and the scattered Wierwille lovers around the world.

Just a couple of weeks ago a long lost "pal" from the 1970s who is not part of The Way in New Knoxville, but obviously revealed herself to still be enmeshed in TWI dogmas, said, "But we're still the first century church in the twentieth and there's supposed to be one man of God like Paul was in the first century." She listens to VP on tape over the internet. He is still her man of God.

YIKES. The myth of Wierwille just will not go away. Some people will never admit he was what he really was...it is too frightening to admit it. If you do, the walls of your safe and secure belief-life come crashing down and you must start over. That takes work. It's just too hard.

In PFAL we were taught to "Stand, no matter what happens." (paraphrased a bit) You can't do that without modifying your own behavior. In doing so, you become an active part of the procedure. That's what makes it so difficult to recognize.

Good point. Self-reflection dropped to zero in many of our cases. When you are in a box, you don't realize it until it begins to split apart and you see specs of light peek through.

From all of our posts, it's apparent we are well aware of the cult problem. What are solutions?

Again, last night we watched a show on the History Channel titled, America's Book of Secrets. Season 2, Deadly Cults (first aired May 10, 2013). The segment on dangerous cults was pretty good.

Deadly cults

Rick Ross, a cult examiner who is often an expert witness in courts, made the point, along with others who were interviewed, that our own freedoms in the US - freedom of speech, religion, and assembly, are what pave the way for cults to form legally...and easily.

Rick Ross, cult awareness site

To most of us, the following is not news: It is easy in our country to form a non-profit and say it is a new religion and boom, a new cult is born. And it enjoys the protections under the constitution that major well-known religions enjoy, including tax exemption status. That's one downside...

Note: Remember that Europeans endured the rough seas of the Atlantic to get to this promised land so they could express their beliefs and enjoy religious freedom and boy did they get it, for the most part. Some persecutions persisted for years until those freedoms were enforced. Give a nod here to Thomas Jefferson, etc.

Everyone goes through hard times in life, as Rick Ross pointed out on the Deadly Cults episode, and it is during those vulnerable times that a devoted follower of a dangerous cult comes along with ANSWERS. Those of us here at GSC can say AMEN to that!

We are all too familiar with the problem of dangerous cults.

What are solutions?

I wish I had one magic answer, don't you?

As far as I can tell, all we can do is try and head off seekers at the pass that leads into cult territory.

One way is to tell our stories. GSC has had some good results in opening peoples' eyes to TWI and to cults in general.

Let's not fear sharing our cautionary tales whenever and however we can. In my experience, as uncomfortable as that has been sometimes as a guest with groups of students in a classroom, in the end it is worth the embarrassment and sweaty armpits, and sometimes I get choked up. Usually I find people are thankful for the heads-up.

Maybe that's the best preventive measure we have available in our country. Tell our stories. Any time that is appropriate.

Otherwise, we'd be stuck with someone "at the top of government" I guess, who would have to decide which groups are destructive cults and which ones are not. Case in point, the Branch Davidians, as that History Channel show pointed out, was a "benign commune" until David Koresh showed up. He took over as prophet and we know the rest of that terrible, devastating story.

I suppose I am rambling, but I just want to say---don't ever stop talking, Grease spotters. Wish me luck for another presentation at another college soon. I need new deodorant!

Enjoy your weekend.

Penworks

Hello,

I agree with Tazia on this subject -- that religions are cults in one way or another if we use the word "cult" as a religious idea, usually based on a "special person" that people follow and gain a sense of community from doing that.

We just finished watching the History Channel's take on Constantine's political maneuverings and use of the early Christians to stabilize his empire. The show was pretty good in that it reveals how he forced the church elders to agree on what the heck they really believed and which of the many documents (gospels, letters, etc. ) they circulated should be accepted as authoritative, collected, and made official. We call that the making of the biblical canon. It was man-made. Emphasis on MAN.

Of course, the series on the History channel is a simplified and gives its own slightly slanted view of the power of Christianity, but it did offer the unknowing watcher something to think about regarding the sweep of that slice of history.

Let's talk about cults in terms of the Crusades

Too bad about those Crusades, perpetrating evil in the name of Christ. btw...the Spanish Inquisition comes to mind. And we all know from Monty Python that "No one expects the Spanish Inquisition!" When I watch that, I laugh out loud every single time. My husband, too.

So...a few more thoughts. What did me the most good when I left TWI was reading about the formation of the Bible, Christianity, competing beliefs, etc.. I probably sound like a broken record, but I feel strongly about people finding out what their options are before jumping on any religious bandwagon.

Yay for public libraries.

The problem is, many people do not end up in a cult because they are 100% driven by reason or choosing an "option." So trying to "reason a person out of joining a cult" is pretty hard.

I know one person who was on the TWI research team, J*hn Sch*&heit., had been a philosophy major in college and rejected it in favor of "the accuracy of The Word" as fabricated by Wierwille.

So I am thinking that emotion plays a bigger role in cult recruitment than any logical arguments or broader knowledge available from wise folks or from books. Maybe a combo of emotion and reason, like "I want the truth and this guy sounds convincing" happens (that was me). But I think that a need to connect with other likeminded and kind people may be a more a powerful draw than "Truth" offered by cults and religions.

Recently I had a conversation with a Christian college student who has atheist friends and agnostic friends (there is a difference!) . He remarked on how they are moral even without religion, but he wasn't sure what their morality or ethics were based on, if not the commands of the Bible.

Why does that shock people? The student had no idea what Humanism was, or that philosophy offers us a way to navigate the world and be useful, productive, kind, generous, and good for the sake of being good people, not for the sake of gaining rewards in a supposed afterlife.

I tried to explain that for me, living this life on the basis of thinking it is probably the only one I get makes me want to enjoy it and use every minute for the good, if possible.

As an agnostic, I am just not smart enough or enlightened enough to have the certainty (like I used to have in TWI and before that Young Life, and before that in the Catholic church) that so many believers have about their beliefs.

Certainty about what God says or about your religious beliefs/doctrines, in my view, is our enemy.

Certainty (and greed and a host of other stuff) was Constantine's original motivation, as a recent History Channel show pointed out. Constantine was certain God and/or Christ, gave him a sign that he would win the war against his then-enemies. Later, there were Crusades which went on for a few HUNDRED YEARS because they were certain they were right in God's eyes.

IMO, certainty is the thief of democracy. It makes people NOT want to negotiate or compromise or get along. It makes some Christians bomb abortion clinics. It makes some people in politics claim that God is on their side. YIKES. Are we back in the Crusades? What happened to our democracy? Where is our common ground? At least can it be the golden rule? Maybe? Please?

So, I think certainty can be scary.

Last thought...cult prevention, I think, is a better way to go than cult undoing. Once a cult gets going, when people are so convinced they are doing God's will that you can't pry them out (that was me long ago), then the situation gets harder to change. Damage is done. Read the stories here at GSC if you're not convinced.

I'm interested in hearing what other ideas people here might have about preventing cult recruitment.

Got any?

Peace,

Penworks

Thanks guys. This is very helpful.

I probably missed this info somewhere, but about how many might be on staff these days at HQ?

Cheers,

Penworks

Skyrider, just curious about the number, 35,000, who left ... I would like to use that figure.

Can you give me a source?

Good morning.

Last night I wrote my response to the report on this event. This morning it was sent to my website subscribers at 9:00 am.

You can read it at: The Way celebrates 73 anniversary of ... ?

Cheers,

Pen

My oh my. 73 years. How time flies when you're having ..... fun? Fundamentalism?

http://sidneydailynews.com/news/religion/8561/the-way-international-celebrates-73rd-anniversary

Indeed...

Love that quote! Read some of his work in college. Euripides, that is...

BUT, the "answer nothing" part...depends...

"How did the ordination thing work in twi?

http://www.greasespo...ng-work-in-twi/

http://www.greasespo...860#entry414860

"hi all you greasespotters!.............interesting question fooledagain!............i can answer it from my personal experience with twi ordinatiuons as they "progressed" from the fall of 1970 until i left in the winter of 1986.............might help answer your questions up to that point...........

when i first got involved in twi, there were no twi clergy at all in the way east, which was overseen by steve heefner. a former disc jockey, steve was among the first folks recruited during vic's "research" trip to san francisco, to what was known as the house of acts, a "jesus freak" ministry started by jim doop, and steve heefner, among others, in the bay artea of california.

several of those folks attended "summer school" at twi hq in ohio iduring the summer of 1969, and went back to california and founded the way west, headquartered in mill valley, ca.............there was a huge "revival" in california that those folks got going that fall of 1969, which continued through at least 1974..........it was folks who got involved with twi in ca, and simultaneously, in wichita, ks, under the "ministry" of donnie fugit, who came back to westchester county in ny, and nassau and suffolk counties which comprise long island, in ny in the summer of 1970...........

steve heefner came to rye, ny in the fall of 1970 to set up and coordinate what was rapidly developing into the way east, the ny counterpart to the way west, which steve had started with jimmy doop in ca a year earlier........the first way corps of 9 people, also started at summer school of 1970............from the fall of 1970, through probably 1975 or 76, there was also a tremendous "revival" in the way east which spread throughout all of new york and new england, nj and pa.......... the first twi ordinations i witnessed were in november, 1971, when, at a sunday night service, steve heefner, john lynn, and bob moynihan were ordained by vic in the old brc.

ordination in twi at that time, was all done by vic himself, and involved a short little "ceremony", which vic put together, which culminated with his "laying on of hands" upon the head and/or shoulders of the "candidate", who was kneeling before vic and god, then, "bringing forth a word of prophecy" over the candidate while his hands were "laid on him"..............which laying on of hands, we were told, was strictly "by revelation" from god to vic.............these "prophecies" were given "by revelation", not "inspiration", as were the "normal manifestation of prophecy".........during this "prophecy by revelation", we listened closely to hear which "gift ministry" or "ministries" of the five listed in ephesians, were mentioned or "alluded to" in the words of the "prophecy" spoken over each individual candidate by vic.

this was how all in the church were to learn which "gift ministry(ies)" were to be operated by the newly ordained clergyman for the edification of the body of the church...............after the prophecy was given, the new clergy took the "salt covenant", administered to them by vic, to "seal and salt" the "vows" each new clergyman had taken before god and vic, to be a "faithful minister" to the church for life.......this particular ordination service went out as the usual, weekly sns tape........then coffee, cookies, and a "receiving line" of sorts, where the newly ordained clergy would "meet 'n' greet" the congregants, and receive congratulations, etc.............these folks were not corps grads, since there were'nt any yet.

the ordination "service" itself was handled by vic only during those days.........and, it was accepted that the "public" service was really only a "confirmation" of what god had already "ordained" in the lives of those so recognized, and it was assumed that every ordination was "done by revelation" to the mog from god for the body of the church as well as each individual who was ordained...........it was always considered to be a "spiritually heavy" occurrence, and the attitude was one of somber reverence for the candidate especially, as well as for vic........the only "pre-requisite" for ordination at that time was the "revelation" to vic from god to do it.........that was it!

the next ordinations i witnessed were also in the brc at hq, when the first corps graduated in august, 1972............they were done exactly the same way as i described above........i think that nancy duncan was the only woman ordained at that time, ......the rest vwere all the guys........randy anderson, earl burton, gary curtis, del duncan, bo reahard, and mike smith..........there was no such thing as corps week back then, so, these were done at a separate "service" after the first corps graduation itself............then, on to the rock '72!

then, when the second corps graduated in august of 1973, the same was done for them,...............i do not recall which women were ordained at that time, but it was only a few, and i think all the men were ordained.............again, one-at-a-time as described above, each one having vic lay his hands on them individually while "prophesying" over each one individually.........then, salt covenant, as a group,......then, onto roa '73, followed by my first year of in-rez corps "training"....................then, when the third corps graduated, the same "routine", with one major change.............not every male in the third corps was "invited" to be ordained..............which was the first time that occurred..............meaning that, even though they all graduated, obviously not every one had gift ministries according to the "revelation" given vic by god.

this was a noteable difference, and set the stage for what was to become the hierarchical, caste system among the way corps, and eventually the rest of twi.............it was now quite clear, that just because you graduated from the corps, it did not necessarily follow that you had "gift ministries", at the time of graduation, or that you would be ordained prior to "hitting the field"............again, to me, a major change vic pulled off in order to increase corps enrollment, as well as to keep the ordination thing as exclusive as possible despite the growing numbers of corps members in each successive way corps "class".

during my first in-rez year, '73-'74, it was decided that there would be, for the first time, an "interim" or "practicum year" added to the corps training, which up until then had been two consecutive years in-rez, followed by graduation...........since we were the first to "volunteer" for this, the fourth corps was given the option of doing both in-rez years consecutively, then an interim/practicum year "on-the-field" or on staff somewhere, or, to take the second year of the three as an interim/practicum year "on-the-field" somewhere or on staff, and then return in august, 1975, for our final in-rez year at hq...........of course, this meant we had to "make arrangements" for another full year of "corps sponsorship" among our sponsors, who had "signed on" for two years only when we first started, or scrounge up new sponsors.........either way, the money had to be there!

when the fouth corps graduated in august, 1976, for the first time, there were no ordinations of any of the new corps grads...........another significant change vic slipped in...........the first 4th corps ordinations took place after pfal 77, and after the rock '77................they were still performed only by vic himself, in the same manner described above, only they were done away from hq, at the end of the "weekend-in-the-word" events held in the 7 official regions of the way of the usa at that time, during the corps meetings that were held on the sunday evenings of those weekends after all the "believers" had departed for home.................i was ordained on 10/16/1977, in the blackstone hotel, on michigan ave., in chicago.

this was considered an especially poignant event, because it was this same blackstone hotel in chicago, on michigan ave., where vic supposedly "practiced" the revelation manifestations, where, as he recounted in most advanced classes, god showed him who was born again or not by revealing to him a "white heart" in those who were christians, and a "black heart" in those who were not born again, or who were "possessed by devil spirits"!.

my ordination was done in the same manner described above, where i kneeled before vic, and he "laid his hands" on my head and shoulders, prophesied "by revelation" over me, and then, had me stand, while he went on to the next "candidate"...............ordained with me that night were wayne merrill, steve sann, and ken standage..............each as described above.............and then we all took the salt covenant together............vic had each of our prophecies taped for us so we could listen later, to hear which "gift ministries" we each had, and were supposed to faithfully "operate" for the rest of our lives!................there were still no corps weeks at this time.............and, vic still personally "handled" every ordination that was done here in the USA.

the 5th corps was the first to all do their interim year during the second year of the now three-year corps program, and then return for their final in-rez year at the emporia campus............the sixth corps was the first one to be centered at emporia for both in-rez years, with various "blocks" of time spent at hq and the indiana campus with the family corps...............and, the 6th was the first large group of well over 300 corps "volunteers"..........i think the first corps week was in 1979, IIRC............someone correct me if i'm wrong..............by then there were 8 regions in the usa, and, after august, 1982 there were 10.............during the "40th anniversary year" of 1981-82, ordinations took place at the end of various of the "anniversary weekends" which were staged in the 8 different regions that year.........much in the same way they were done after the weekends in the word during '77-'78...............by "invitation only" from vic, and officiated by vic.

it may have been at the corps week in 1982, where, for the first time, candidates for ordination were "nominated" by the limb and region leadership "on-the-field", and by the various president's cabinet members at hq, and the "executive committee" at each "root locale".........the "nominated candidates" were "screened/reviewed" by the heads of each of the various "leadership" groups, and final decisions were made after the bot, along with those who participated in the annual "corps placement meetings", discussed each indiuvidual who was nominated, and if there was indeed, a genuine "need" in the church body served by that individual for an ordained clergyperson.............once those decisions were reached, the "nominees" were officially "invited" to be ordained, and, for the first time, vic was not to be personally involved with the "laying on of hands and prophecy" of each individual.

rather, each individual was instructed to "prayerfully consider" which previously ordained clergyperson was to "officiate" over the individual's ordination, to be held simultaneously, as a group, in the main tent on the "corps night" of that week...............a major change from vic doing each ordination himself!.........this presumed that each "candidate" trusted the individual clergyperson he/she chose to "get the revelation" regarding the presence or non-presence of "gift ministry(ies)", and get it right!.........major decentalization here!.........after the "laying on of hands and prophecy", the salt covenat was administered simultaneously to all who had "made their vows"........this is pretty much the way ordination in twi was handled from then on, until i resigned "my commission" in 1986.................although this process never precluded vic from ordaining anyone he chose, or anyone "god told him to" ordain, any time or any where he wanted to................

whatever happened after december,1986 concerning ordination in twi, i have no clue.............but, i'm sure it never got any "better"!!..........hope that answers your questions..............if not, feel free to ask more................................peace. "

Hi, it's Charlene here, just to say that this account nails the phenomenon. Thank you, DWBH. Just one little change.. The Second Corps men were ordained after one year on the field post graduation. So graduation was '73, ordination was '74.

"Rev" gerry was in da 2nd corpse with Charlene and his first wife, Su3 Wil$on. He runs the single most smarmy, over-schmalzed, wierwille worship offshoot of them all, imo. As a matter of fact, just today, on his FB page, he was trying to pull off a repeat as the mighty east coast USA hurricane stopper by "rebuking" Joaquin from the Carolina and Virginia coasts. When he was the limp coordinator in FL, he claimed to have surrounded the entire state of FL with a "ring of angels" to protect God's people,(and nobody else) from one of those big hurricanes like Andrew or Ivan or some such. Always made me scratch my head in disbelief when jerks like dictor paul and his faithful son, "rev" gerry would "glorify Gawd" with tales of how "every house in the neighborhood was blown or flooded away EXCEPT for where the deluded wayfers lived because of their super-powerful, rightly-divided, christ-in-you, believing prayers. And, then take credit for "how much worse it would have been for all those poor, sub-human natural men and unbelievers had it not been for that ring of angels "rev" gerry commanded into action in the name of Jesus Christ, Amen! See why you should keep sending me your $?? So, in effect, "rev" gerry et al are teaching the mind numbed ex-wayfers that, the love of God in the renewed in manifestation DOES INDEED rejoice in iniquity!"

Just thought the GSC community might be interested in examining today's latest from "rev" gerry himself. Judge for yourself and tell us all what you think. I am most interested in your thoughts, opinions, and emotions when you read it. TY. Pray for my son please. His fantasy football teams are getting crunched on this longest NFL game day evah!

"Dearly beloved, it is Sunday and we are still here, Joaquin or not. We can still pray for our brethren along the coast and the resulting flooding from the hurricane.

From our exalted position in Christ in the spiritual realm, we can exercise the mighty power entrusted to us for good, for deliverance.

Ephesians 3:20 WT

Now to Him Who is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we request or think about, according to the power that works in us,

In Christ, we are complete, filled to the full. We are strengthened with the power of his spirit. It is all in all of us. Because of this, we can be strong in the Lord and in the strength of his exerted ability for us.

Our Father blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly realm in Christ. We are seated there in Christ, we walk in this realm, and we must stand in this realm as the mighty sons of God we are. The day is swiftly coming that we will stand there when our Lord returns for us.

Our wrestling is in the spiritual realm beloved, against the strategies of the god of this world, the devil, and against the spirits of wickedness in the heavenly realm - not against the senses realm. As we would train if we were in a physical wrestling match, we must train to compete in the wrestling match in the spiritual realm. Ephesians 6:10 and following lays it out for us.

The key to igniting the power of God in us is the renewing of the mind: thinking God's thoughts so we can prove His will, believing God's Word concerning who we are in Christ so we are able to extinguish all the fiery darts of the wicked one, standing in the contest in which we wrestle.

Beloved, look at situations from God's perspective, from His vantage point in the heavenly realm.

We are enabled men and women in Christ. Pray always with every prayer in the spirit and stay on watch with all perseverance concerning them for all saints.

Dear ones, exercise yourself unto godliness: that real, true, vital, spiritual relationship with God in the spiritual realm."

Well, all I can say is: this is a broken record of VPW self-serving rhetoric.

Fascinating background about JAL. I appreciate your telling us your part in the spin-off situations and how that all played out. In 1987 when I left TWI, JAL came to Orlando to run a meeting and asked to stay with us overnight. We were not interested in his new ministry gig but said sure, hospitality being something we still liked to offer. JAL and I had a conversation. He hoped to win me over to his new gig. I challenged him. "If I'm going to go around saying 'thus saith the Lord' about anything, I want to be sure about what I'm saying, and at this point, I'm not sure about anything." My sense was, and still is, that any accuracy of the Bible was a pipe dream. The cannon of Scripture varies, so right there we have a slippery slope.

Later, the more I read and thought and pondered and wondered and re-read, I figured the path I was most at peace about taking was aiming me towards agnosticism. Now, I'm getting off topic...

Back to JAL

When I was recruited at ECU, he and P#t were the state leaders of N.C. There was no Way Tree yet. That invention came later. The guys who lived in the Way Home with JAL and P#t were students at ECU in training to enter the Way Corps. Many of them are mentioned here at GSC (E8rl B*rton, G#erald W#enn, D*ke Clar$, etc.)

They had a schedule that included communal study, witnessing, and running the coffeehouse on Saturday night. Some of this is reported in book, The Way: Living in Love, by El#na White&ide.

...Just as an aside, El#na did not ask any of us who ended up in that book whether she could use our real names. For some people, she used both their first and last names. For me, only my first, Charlene...this gets interesting because of all the different paths taken by people in the book after they left TWI....

Anyhow, JAL at ECU (oh, don't we love the acronyms) was on a roll. He is still on it. When I watched a few minutes of his recent YouTube gig, I had flashbacks. He has not changed his kindergarten-like-explaining tone of voice or mannerisms. I, too, am sorry he is suffering with an illness these days. He meant well during those years that I first knew him, but there must have been something he felt he had to prove by sticking with the fundie thing so long.

Cheers,

Pen

Just curious about Ermal's part in VPW's agenda. He never said much. The first time I met VPW, Ermal and Harry W. were with him. They are in the motorcycle shed on the cold November day I arrived from ECU for a women's advance, 1971. That scene is part of an early chapter in my book. Yikes. Where is the publisher I need for my book? Hellllooo.

Don't worry Greasespotters, I will find one. And I do not plan on begging. Anyone with a sound mind and paying attention to the news every day realizes a topic like, Seventeen Years in a Fundamentalist Cult, just might, well...might be a hot topic OR something to help people get to sleep. Depends on your point of view.

Cheers,

Pen

DWBH - I known that vpw did not have a basketball career, it was a joke on vpw's ascertation to the fact - googling it too is a joke as I don't need to search for info that has already been revealed. The joke I was attempting to make was why the comparison to baseball when it should be basketball because of vpw.

DWBH, you ask: How long ago was I in twit; I was in twi from 1972 to 1977.

DWBH: What's your point regarding how long ago I was in twit?

I don't know about DWBH, but count me in as curious about when you were "in" TWI. And whether you are "in" an offshoot. Just curious. My cats taught me to be curious. I blame them.

hey just got around to reading that blog. nice article and resources. on your book i don't know your situation but self publishing through lulu.com is a great way to go getting things out to a small audience and getting up and running quickly.

Oh, thanks chockfull, for the Lulu idea. Yes, they are good. I think our old friend C&*istian Abr***m used it to publish his two books. One is, The Secret Curse Surrenders. Loved that. But prepare yourself for a wild ride into Indiana Campus-land...

Anyway, I may go that route. There are a few irons in the fire.

Cheers,

Pen

Yeah, Victor Bernard. Yikes. This talk show on YouTube really stirred things up. Let's hope it got some viewers thinking...

I mentioned VB in a blog post recently.

http://charleneedge....flage-of-cults/

Steve mentioned the problem of "the artificial language we used to distinguish ourselves from outsiders."

I like that point.

Identify that artificial language (I call jargon) and you're half way out of TWI. The other half of the way out is to break the habits (behavior) that issued from that false identity built by the jargon. Like a house of cards, one flick of the finger and it all begins to fall.

Also kick the habit or the compulsive feeling that you have to preach that artificial language. At this point, I'm referring to the evangelism of offshoot TWI folks who have not stopped to examine their jargon. What would happen if they just sat down and thought about the implications of what they are perpetrating? Does it promote bigotry or expose it?

I know many TWI offshoot leaders from way back. If any of you are reading this, may I suggest taking some time off from promoting second-hand stuff from TWI and quietly examining what it means. Ask yourself, is this the kind of world I want to be a part of...one that pits people against each other using religious beliefs?

Anyhow, perfectly happy people run the offshoots, and they feel they are fulfilling what they're supposed to do on the planet. But maybe, just maybe they might admit to a tiny doubt about that. Maybe they'll ask themselves, What's the worst that can happen if one of those teeny doubts turns out to be true? Change is possible. But like getting old, it ain't for sissies.

Thanks, Chockfull. It's taken a lot of work to get to where I am now. After I got M&A'd I spent ten years down the bottom of a deep dark miserable well, unable to face life, people, anything and anyone. The lost years, I call that time.

Then, extreme misery compelled me to act and I was going to crawl over broken glass or whatever, to get back to TWI. Instead, I got waylaid by GSC. And I started to heal, started to recover my thinking capacity, started to feel the warmth of God's love. Lots of miraculous things happened to me then. Like God was showering me with all that love and those gifts that I'd been hiding from before, when I was down that well. He found me a church where there was space to just be, gentle kind people, great teaching... People, strangers, befriended me and made space for me in their lives and in their homes. :knuddel:/>/> I said weird cult-head things :redface:/>/>, got strange looks :blink:/>/>, but nobody tore my head off for not group-thinking. :rolleyes:/>/> My pre-TWI friends and family welcomed "me" back. :eusa_clap:/>/>

Long-term, I don't think my "identity" - my core being - has changed except to get back to where it was, the person I used to be before TWI got its hooks into me - but my "identity" is deeper and richer and with more to give now. More compassion and understanding for underprivileged and beaten-down people. And a lot more peace of heart.

Still some big confusions; maybe everyone has those? None of us really has all the answers!

Life is very good :dance:/>/>.

Oh man, this made me weep. So happy to be here with such a brave person as yourself...and so many others.

Cheers to you,

Pen

Well, I don't know about the rest of you from my "generation of TWI followers" but I feel sick about the lack of adult responsibility that Dana's story brings to light. I keep thinking about it over and over.

IMO every parent who dumped TWI dogma and TWI-style behavior, i.e. denigrating others of different beliefs among other gross things, on their kids, is responsible for helping their children recover from the bigotry. I don't see any attempt by the minister who did the memorial service for Dana's father taking any responsibility to help Dana.

There is much trouble, with a capital T. People like Dana's mother may not have the strength or understanding yet, to instruct her children. Well, I hope we welcome her here if she ever arrives, and that we don't throw stones at her. Weren't some of us in the same boat of denial as she was while we were enraptured with TWI?

So, I wonder how the GSC community can fill the gap of offering informed -- informed! -- counsel for this next generation of kids damaged to one degree or another by the behavior of their brainwashed parents? Are we offering that here, or do we argue back and forth about man-made dogmas, out-of-context Bible verses, and worn out plagiarized interpretations of Scripture masquerading as truth? If we keep dragging the kind of Christianity that the apostle Paul invented into every conversation we will never unwrap ourselves from our problems.

I don't care who we are, have we said to our children in the privacy of our own homes, "I'm deeply sorry I fed you the bigotry of TWI, which in large measure is based not only on VPW's craziness, but also on St. Paul's brand of Christianity, yes, ohmygod, just read the verses where he turned people over to Satan for disagreeing with him.

Can we say, "I will get myself educated about what happened to me in Wierwille's cult, and I will try and share what I've learned with my child."

Will more children (now adults with their own children, like Dana) have to come here among strangers to learn the truth about what happened in their parents' lives? I would be at the very least embarrassed, but more like stricken with guilt, if my daughter had to learn all this truth which is largely terrible dirt about TWI, from other people, not from her own mother.

And oh yeah, have I owned up to my part in all the past crap? Have I tried to make amends?

I realize I am probably preaching to the choir tonight. But I guess sometimes choir members are the only ones around to listen...

Penworks

When I was in-rez at Gunnison, and I had a little time to myself, I'd sneak up into the library... nobody else ever went there... and read the reproductions of old dime novels that were there.

Love,

Steve

That was a great use of free time. Novels! I had no idea they had any out there in CO.