Well, in the early '70's, it was commonly supposed, by the rank and file believers, that ordination came from God and was conferred upon the recipients as a recognition of a gift ministry. (or plural ministries) It was quite a "thing" amongst us to try to guess the gift ministry of the newly ordained. And, of course, since VPW declared himself to be "the teacher" it was accepted that he, himself, had at least this gift ministry if not more.
I have since learned that everything is not always as it appears to be.
Howard Allen once told my husband that it used to be by revelation (where is that puking emoticon??) But now it's different because you have to be Way Corpse and they make you go through some sort of training program where you follow someone who is ordained around taking notes.... Howard seemed a little disgusted with the whole concept - guess he was longing for those good ol' days.
They did something a while back where they ordained a whole butt-load of people all over the country at once, I think it was either right before or right after LCM's fall from grace. Anybody else remember that?
It was in the late 90's, Martindale directed that the Region Coordinators would ordain the chosen ones in their regions. I think Martindale made the decision and the RC's implemented it.
At the last ROA Martindale was going to ordain a dozen or so people in front of the audience, but decided during the rehearsal to ordain them there and then.
I seem to remember a mass ordination at one of the early ROA's, '79 or '80 maybe.
I don't think it was ever made clear nor was it consistant
The people that twi ordained were the ones that they thought could make them money...
Ithink you are pretty much on the money with that one..
I dont know how exactly it worked in TWI--
Sorta off topic---
After the implosion in the late 80's I was in a tiny offshoot for awhile.
I was in a small fellowship one night at a housing project, people were milling around afterwards when the "area coordinator/leader guy" asked me to step outside for a minute.
We went out the back screen door and found a quiet spot between a tree and a dumpster (ha) and he said he wanted to pray for me..he put his hand on my shoulder and started praying more or less as I was used to, then started getting alittle intense...blah blah blah..long story short "iwas called" he 'ordained me' and then strongly told me to leave all things of the world behind.
That exact moment was the very first I had heard of it, and it honestly screwed me up for quite awhile as I was still in the TWI believe the BS mode.
Looking back he was a lazy pr!ck who really wanted an assistant and a lapdog, but he had the manipulative tools and could get intense enough 'sperchally' that to me, stll being in the TWI mindset, it was extremely difficult to deal with
He made all sorts of demands on me after that, urged me to quit my job not be 'entangled with the world--and believe God" (believe him, become poverty stricken and do what he told me to do is what that meant).
I shortly thereafter I did quit my job (wrong move), then left the group as the demands got more and more and stranger and stranger...and finally I just left, moved away and wandered around for a few years trying to figure out WTF happened.
that was not an easy period...there was no greasespot or waydale then.
.....This 'leader' learned by watching VPW, the scale was smaller but probably true in a way to TWI's method.
I was a hard worker, I believed him, I was a "true believer", at one point there was nothing I wouldnt do. At the time I was manipulable--which could be key elements they looked for...
...its ironic I was within 10 feet of a friggin dumpster when this all happened.
If there is a God, that part of 'my ordination' was like a real sign, although it took me a while to figure out.
I eventually chucked the whole thing and my whole Way experience right where it belonged..
hi all you greasespotters!.............interesting question fooledagain!............i can answer it from my personal experience with twi ordinatiuons as they "progressed" from the fall of 1970 until i left in the winter of 1986.............might help answer your questions up to that point...........
when i first got involved in twi, there were no twi clergy at all in the way east, which was overseen by steve heefner. a former disc jockey, steve was among the first folks recruited during vic's "research" trip to san francisco, to what was known as the house of acts, a "jesus freak" ministry started by jim doop, and steve heefner, among others, in the bay artea of california...............several of those folks attended "summer school" at twi hq in ohio iduring the summer of 1969, and went back to california and founded the way west, headquartered in mill valley, ca.............there was a huge "revival" in california that those folks got going that fall of 1969, which continued through at least 1974..........it was folks who got involved with twi in ca, and simultaneously, in wichita, ks, under the "ministry" of donnie fugit, who came back to westchester county in ny, and nassau and suffolk counties which comprise long island, in ny in the summer of 1970...........
steve heefner came to rye, ny in the fall of 1970 to set up and coordinate what was rapidly developing into the way east, the ny counterpart to the way west, which steve had started with jimmy doop in ca a year earlier........the first way corps of 9 people, also started at summer school of 1970............from the fall of 1970, through probably 1975 or 76, there was also a tremendous "revival" in the way east which spread throughout all of new york and new england, nj and pa.......... the first twi ordinations i witnessed were in november, 1971, when, at a sunday night service, steve heefner, john lynn, and bob moynihan were ordained by vic in the old brc.........ordination in twi at that time, was all done by vic himself, and involved a short little "ceremony", which vic put together, which culminated with his "laying on of hands" upon the head and/or shoulders of the "candidate", who was kneeling before vic and god, then, "bringing forth a word of prophecy" over the candidate while his hands were "laid on him"..............which laying on of hands, we were told, was strictly "by revelation" from god to vic.............these "prophecies" were given "by revelation", not "inspiration", as were the "normal manifestation of prophecy".........during this "prophecy by revelation", we listened closely to hear which "gift ministry" or "ministries" of the five listed in ephesians, were mentioned or "alluded to" in the words of the "prophecy" spoken over each individual candidate by vic..........this was how all in the church were to learn which "gift ministry(ies)" were to be operated by the newly ordained clergyman for the edification of the body of the church...............after the prophecy was given, the new clergy took the "salt covenant", administered to them by vic, to "seal and salt" the "vows" each new clergyman had taken before god and vic, to be a "faithful minister" to the church for life.......this particular ordination service went out as the usual, weekly sns tape........then coffee, cookies, and a "receiving line" of sorts, where the newly ordained clergy would "meet 'n' greet" the congregants, and receive congratulations, etc.............these folks were not corps grads, since there were'nt any yet...........the ordination "service" itself was handled by vic only during those days.........and, it was accepted that the "public" service was really only a "confirmation" of what god had already "ordained" in the lives of those so recognized, and it was assumed that every ordination was "done by revelation" to the mog from god for the body of the church as well as each individual who was ordained...........it was always considered to be a "spiritually heavy" occurrence, and the attitude was one of somber reverence for the candidate especially, as well as for vic........the only "pre-requisite" for ordination at that time was the "revelation" to vic from god to do it.........that was it!
the next ordinations i witnessed were also in the brc at hq, when the first corps graduated in august, 1972............they were done exactly the same way as i described above........i think that nancy duncan was the only woman ordained at that time, ......the rest vwere all the guys........randy anderson, earl burton, gary curtis, del duncan, bo reahard, and mike smith..........there was no such thing as corps week back then, so, these were done at a separate "service" after the first corps graduation itself............then, on to the rock '72!
then, when the second corps graduated in august of 1973, the same was done for them,...............i do not recall which women were ordained at that time, but it was only a few, and i think all the men were ordained.............again, one-at-a-time as described above, each one having vic lay his hands on them individually while "prophesying" over each one individually.........then, salt covenant, as a group,......then, onto roa '73, followed by my first year of in-rez corps "training"....................then, when the third corps graduated, the same "routine", with one major change.............not every male in the third corps was "invited" to be ordained..............which was the first time that occurred..............meaning that, even though they all graduated, obviously not every one had gift ministries according to the "revelation" given vic by god..............this was a noteable difference, and set the stage for what was to become the hierarchical, caste system among the way corps, and eventually the rest of twi.............it was now quite clear, that just because you graduated from the corps, it did not necessarily follow that you had "gift ministries", at the time of graduation, or that you would be ordained prior to "hitting the field"............again, to me, a major change vic pulled off in order to increase corps enrollment, as well as to keep the ordination thing as exclusive as possible despite the growing numbers of corps members in each successive way corps "class".
during my first in-rez year, '73-'74, it was decided that there would be, for the first time, an "interim" or "practicum year" added to the corps training, which up until then had been two consecutive years in-rez, followed by graduation...........since we were the first to "volunteer" for this, the fourth corps was given the option of doing both in-rez years consecutively, then an interim/practicum year "on-the-field" or on staff somewhere, or, to take the second year of the three as an interim/practicum year "on-the-field" somewhere or on staff, and then return in august, 1975, for our final in-rez year at hq...........of course, this meant we had to "make arrangements" for another full year of "corps sponsorship" among our sponsors, who had "signed on" for two years only when we first started, or scrounge up new sponsors.........either way, the money had to be there!
when the fouth corps graduated in august, 1976, for the first time, there were no ordinations of any of the new corps grads...........another significant change vic slipped in...........the first 4th corps ordinations took place after pfal 77, and after the rock '77................they were still performed only by vic himself, in the same manner described above, only they were done away from hq, at the end of the "weekend-in-the-word" events held in the 7 official regions of the way of the usa at that time, during the corps meetings that were held on the sunday evenings of those weekends after all the "believers" had departed for home.................i was ordained on 10/16/1977, in the blackstone hotel, on michigan ave., in chicago............this was considered an especially poignant event, because it was this same blackstone hotel in chicago, on michigan ave., where vic supposedly "practiced" the revelation manifestations, where, as he recounted in most advanced classes, god showed him who was born again or not by revealing to him a "white heart" in those who were christians, and a "black heart" in those who were not born again, or who were "possessed by devil spirits"!.............my ordination was done in the same manner described above, where i kneeled before vic, and he "laid his hands" on my head and shoulders, prophesied "by revelation" over me, and then, had me stand, while he went on to the next "candidate"...............ordained with me that night were wayne merrill, steve sann, and ken standage..............each as described above.............and then we all took the salt covenant together............vic had each of our prophecies taped for us so we could listen later, to hear which "gift ministries" we each had, and were supposed to faithfully "operate" for the rest of our lives!................there were still no corps weeks at this time.............and, vic still personally "handled" every ordination that was done here in the USA.
the 5th corps was the first to all do their interim year during the second year of the now three-year corps program, and then return for their final in-rez year at the emporia campus............the sixth corps was the first one to be centered at emporia for both in-rez years, with various "blocks" of time spent at hq and the indiana campus with the family corps...............and, the 6th was the first large group of well over 300 corps "volunteers"..........i think the first corps week was in 1979, IIRC............someone correct me if i'm wrong..............by then there were 8 regions in the usa, and, after august, 1982 there were 10.............during the "40th anniversary year" of 1981-82, ordinations took place at the end of various of the "anniversary weekends" which were staged in the 8 different regions that year.........much in the same way they were done after the weekends in the word during '77-'78...............by "invitation only" from vic, and officiated by vic................it may have been at the corps week in 1982, where, for the first time, candidates for ordination were "nominated" by the limb and region leadership "on-the-field", and by the various president's cabinet members at hq, and the "executive committee" at each "root locale".........the "nominated candidates" were "screened/reviewed" by the heads of each of the various "leadership" groups, and final decisions were made after the bot, along with those who participated in the annual "corps placement meetings", discussed each indiuvidual who was nominated, and if there was indeed, a genuine "need" in the church body served by that individual for an ordained clergyperson.............once those decisions were reached, the "nominees" were officially "invited" to be ordained, and, for the first time, vic was not to be personally involved with the "laying on of hands and prophecy" of each individual..............rather, each individual was instructed to "prayerfully consider" which previously ordained clergyperson was to "officiate" over the individual's ordination, to be held simultaneously, as a group, in the main tent on the "corps night" of that week...............a major change from vic doing each ordination himself!.........this presumed that each "candidate" trusted the individual clergyperson he/she chose to "get the revelation" regarding the presence or non-presence of "gift ministry(ies)", and get it right!.........major decentalization here!.........after the "laying on of hands and prophecy", the salt covenat was administered simultaneously to all who had "made their vows"........this is pretty much the way ordination in twi was handled from then on, until i resigned "my commission" in 1986.................although this process never precluded vic from ordaining anyone he chose, or anyone "god told him to" ordain, any time or any where he wanted to................
whatever happened after december,1986 concerning ordination in twi, i have no clue.............but, i'm sure it never got any "better"!!..........hope that answers your questions..............if not, feel free to ask more................................peace.
hiya cynic!.............of all the ordinations i witnessed, or was a part of, there were only two which i remember, where, during the "prophecy" over the individuals, mention of "new light" and its delivery or presentation to our "generation" was made.......both were graduates of the 2nd corps......lonnell johnson, and gerald wrenn...........there may well have been others, but i was not present for any but these two........................peace.
hi jen-o!..........nice seeing you on this thread!...............thanks for your question...........i do have some thoughts regarding your question which , perhaps may answer it in part...........my perspective is based on hindsight, which, in many cases, may be "20/20", and, in this case, i believe it probably is.......
for the most part, i tend to agree that the "nature" of twi is difficult to separate from that of its founder.........but the "organization" we "joined" was quite a bit more enigmatic than just the overtly pathological nature of its founder, because it did suck in quite a number of folks whose "nature", motivation, and heart were markedly different from those of its founder.........i know that vic himself along with howard allen, was "corrupt" well before 1970.......his perversions, both doctrinal and personal were habitualized by him, imho, by the time he left his denominational church in van wert, in 1957.........but, twi really did'nt "take off" until after he finished filming pfal in 1968, especially in the years and locations i mentioned in my first post on this thread..........the large influx of young, idealistic, "believers" in 1969, and throughout the decade of the '70's is what i was a part of......it was'nt vic, or any of the "old timers" in ohio who witnessed to me........it was my hippie, musician friends whose genuine enthusiasm for "things spiritual", and whose marked "transformation through christ", caught my attention..........and, the many "miracles, signs and wonders" which, i believe, god wrought among us back in those days had nothing to do with vic's personal presence or involvement in our lives, but, quite the contrary, it had to do with our childlike, enthusiastic, and genuinely exuberant acceptance of christ as our risen saviour, and our innocent "believing action" upon the parts of the bible we were learning and accepting as "truth".........the fellowships we were a part of, and bringing our friends and families to were really a lot of fun!......and, the fruit of the spirit as listed in galatians 5:22,23 were evident in abundance, and were accomplishing their results in an atmosphere free from the control of vic and the growing cult machinery of hq in new knoxville!.........as a matter of fact, it was the ever increasing personal control exerted by vic with his increasing personal involvement in our lives and fellowships, which, imo, eventually stifled and strangled the genuine "revivals" god was energizing among the early twi fellowships.......this was the fruit of vic's "ministry" being brought to bear upon the ministry of jesus christ.........vic's profound corruption was becoming institutionalized among the innocent, geniune christian fellowships god and christ were "planting" around the USA, not just in twi, but in a broader "spiritual movement" that was far bigger than anything vic demanded credit for!!......imho, vic's "ministry" sowed the "tares" of his personal and doctrinal perversions among the "good seed" god and christ were sowing without any need of help from the "ministry" of "the teacher"!
the more involved believers became with vic's programs (wow, way corps, "college" division, word in business, culture, etc., etc., etc.) and classes, the more the "tares" of his corruption took root and choked the innocence and purity of holy spirit and its fruit out of the lives and fellowships of the "good seed"............and, for those of us fortunate enough to have "tasted" and experienced genuine christian revival, and who earnestly desired to see it continue and spread throughout "the world", unfettered by "man-made religion",..........the "vehicle" we thought god provided in twi, was hijacked by the "vehicle" vic provided in its stead, also called twi, but not "fueled" by god, but rather by the growing control and dominance of vic's personal perversions and corruption, eventually yielding its own "fruit" in the monster of hypocrisy, deceit, and abject immorality which the entire organization of twi grew into and remains to this day........a monument to the legacy of the "ministry" of "the teacher"........not the legacy of the ministry of jesus christ to the world..........fortunately, the two are NOT the same!
so, jen-o................imo, vic was thoroughly and irreversibly corrupt by the late '50's............and it only took him 30 more years to thoroughly and irreversibly corrupt the entire organization he "founded", and which thousands of innocent "believers" built and paid cash for, for him in the '70's and early '80's.............which he handed over to his "best friend", and his oldest biological son, and the neanderthaal intellect of the doofus from okie, so they could destroy it and its people in the late '80's and through the '90's.........and which is now run by those who are the most loyal and faithful disciples of his perversions, lies and corruption...........those who truly made vic's way, their way, which is the way international!............................peace.
thank you likeaneagle!................that makes me very happy indeed!..................yes.....the revival was real, and i'm glad we are a part of god's heart forever because of it!...........thanks for letting me know that post was worthwhile!..................peace.
I also appreciate your posts. These sharings require a whole lot of thought and plenty of concentration to put things down accurately - - you have no axe to grind nor any particular reason for posting other than setting down what was and what wasn't.
I got involved in '78 and I know I was part of something really dynamic and wonderful at that time. I just didn't have the good sense to get out until much too late - - just a few months short of getting my 20 year pin (!).
don, thank you for your thoughtful response and astute analysis...
i do agree with you! :)
i've often thought that there were 2 separate things going on in twi (like 2 different directions, you might say)
although i didn't get involved until 1981, i can relate to what you are saying...
in the only twig in my small college town, the people were far removed from all things "HQ-ish"...
it was a simple lifestyle with genuine love and genuine signs that followed... not corrupted by vpw...
there were also no "way corps" in my first twig...
so too with my wow year (81-82)
no way corps, small town, no interference from the "top"...
maybe that's what made it such a great year! :D
seems to me the closer one got to vpw and his "organization", the stranger things became...
something just didn't seem quite right...
i knew of a couple people back in 81-82 that went into the corps, and there was a marked difference in their personalities when i saw them just one year later...
gone were the lighthearted, carefree, loving, innocent, joyful folks i knew...
and instead, i saw troubled, anxious, fearful, rigid, almost robotic people in their place...
that really bothered me...
what the heck happened in the space of one year?!?
i think your analogy with the tares is brilliant... and spot on...
the problem with "the way" was VPW! =:~o
there was an authentic movement of God...
and wherever God was allowed to move, He did so...
vpw hitched his wagon to that genuine movement of God...
but whatever vpw touched became contaminated...
and whatever he got his hooks into only served to stifle the move of God...
while elevating and institutionalizing vpw's perversions and errors...
thanks for the backatchya, and the kind words jen-o!...............btw, glad you enjoy the lower case, the "infamous" ".......", and...................peace!
Yes, thanks for putting this all down, DWBH ... even though I was in for 23.5 years, I never knew how the ordinations came about. I always enjoy reading your posts. I was around in some of the early 70s to see that pure-hearted love folks on the field (including me) had to share with people the truth we were learning ... great love, great heart ... and if they had just left us alone instead of trying to micro-manage everything from Cornfield County, OH ... what a great move of God's Word we would have seen for much, much longer. Sigh ...but I'm thankful for what God wrought during those days ... and I believe He's still working today, just in much smaller pockets .... and not under the "flag" of any particular group.
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waysider
Well, in the early '70's, it was commonly supposed, by the rank and file believers, that ordination came from God and was conferred upon the recipients as a recognition of a gift ministry. (or plural ministries) It was quite a "thing" amongst us to try to guess the gift ministry of the newly ordained. And, of course, since VPW declared himself to be "the teacher" it was accepted that he, himself, had at least this gift ministry if not more.
I have since learned that everything is not always as it appears to be.
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JavaJane
Howard Allen once told my husband that it used to be by revelation (where is that puking emoticon??) But now it's different because you have to be Way Corpse and they make you go through some sort of training program where you follow someone who is ordained around taking notes.... Howard seemed a little disgusted with the whole concept - guess he was longing for those good ol' days.
They did something a while back where they ordained a whole butt-load of people all over the country at once, I think it was either right before or right after LCM's fall from grace. Anybody else remember that?
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Oakspear
It was in the late 90's, Martindale directed that the Region Coordinators would ordain the chosen ones in their regions. I think Martindale made the decision and the RC's implemented it.
At the last ROA Martindale was going to ordain a dozen or so people in front of the audience, but decided during the rehearsal to ordain them there and then.
I seem to remember a mass ordination at one of the early ROA's, '79 or '80 maybe.
I don't think it was ever made clear nor was it consistant
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cheranne
back in the old days if you were a nurse you would just call yourself a nurse(or medicine man)
Of course now hee are so many educated fools that have so called tittles and NO COMMON SENSE!!!!
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GrouchoMarxJr
The people that twi ordained were the ones that they thought could make them money...
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mstar1
Ithink you are pretty much on the money with that one..
I dont know how exactly it worked in TWI--
Sorta off topic---
After the implosion in the late 80's I was in a tiny offshoot for awhile.
I was in a small fellowship one night at a housing project, people were milling around afterwards when the "area coordinator/leader guy" asked me to step outside for a minute.
We went out the back screen door and found a quiet spot between a tree and a dumpster (ha) and he said he wanted to pray for me..he put his hand on my shoulder and started praying more or less as I was used to, then started getting alittle intense...blah blah blah..long story short "iwas called" he 'ordained me' and then strongly told me to leave all things of the world behind.
That exact moment was the very first I had heard of it, and it honestly screwed me up for quite awhile as I was still in the TWI believe the BS mode.
Looking back he was a lazy pr!ck who really wanted an assistant and a lapdog, but he had the manipulative tools and could get intense enough 'sperchally' that to me, stll being in the TWI mindset, it was extremely difficult to deal with
He made all sorts of demands on me after that, urged me to quit my job not be 'entangled with the world--and believe God" (believe him, become poverty stricken and do what he told me to do is what that meant).
I shortly thereafter I did quit my job (wrong move), then left the group as the demands got more and more and stranger and stranger...and finally I just left, moved away and wandered around for a few years trying to figure out WTF happened.
that was not an easy period...there was no greasespot or waydale then.
.....This 'leader' learned by watching VPW, the scale was smaller but probably true in a way to TWI's method.
I was a hard worker, I believed him, I was a "true believer", at one point there was nothing I wouldnt do. At the time I was manipulable--which could be key elements they looked for...
...its ironic I was within 10 feet of a friggin dumpster when this all happened.
If there is a God, that part of 'my ordination' was like a real sign, although it took me a while to figure out.
I eventually chucked the whole thing and my whole Way experience right where it belonged..
or ..who knows...maybe where I was told to
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likeaneagle
Hugs to ya Mstar- this is one of those stories that just leaves me speechless.
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DontWorryBeHappy
hi all you greasespotters!.............interesting question fooledagain!............i can answer it from my personal experience with twi ordinatiuons as they "progressed" from the fall of 1970 until i left in the winter of 1986.............might help answer your questions up to that point...........
when i first got involved in twi, there were no twi clergy at all in the way east, which was overseen by steve heefner. a former disc jockey, steve was among the first folks recruited during vic's "research" trip to san francisco, to what was known as the house of acts, a "jesus freak" ministry started by jim doop, and steve heefner, among others, in the bay artea of california...............several of those folks attended "summer school" at twi hq in ohio iduring the summer of 1969, and went back to california and founded the way west, headquartered in mill valley, ca.............there was a huge "revival" in california that those folks got going that fall of 1969, which continued through at least 1974..........it was folks who got involved with twi in ca, and simultaneously, in wichita, ks, under the "ministry" of donnie fugit, who came back to westchester county in ny, and nassau and suffolk counties which comprise long island, in ny in the summer of 1970...........
steve heefner came to rye, ny in the fall of 1970 to set up and coordinate what was rapidly developing into the way east, the ny counterpart to the way west, which steve had started with jimmy doop in ca a year earlier........the first way corps of 9 people, also started at summer school of 1970............from the fall of 1970, through probably 1975 or 76, there was also a tremendous "revival" in the way east which spread throughout all of new york and new england, nj and pa.......... the first twi ordinations i witnessed were in november, 1971, when, at a sunday night service, steve heefner, john lynn, and bob moynihan were ordained by vic in the old brc.........ordination in twi at that time, was all done by vic himself, and involved a short little "ceremony", which vic put together, which culminated with his "laying on of hands" upon the head and/or shoulders of the "candidate", who was kneeling before vic and god, then, "bringing forth a word of prophecy" over the candidate while his hands were "laid on him"..............which laying on of hands, we were told, was strictly "by revelation" from god to vic.............these "prophecies" were given "by revelation", not "inspiration", as were the "normal manifestation of prophecy".........during this "prophecy by revelation", we listened closely to hear which "gift ministry" or "ministries" of the five listed in ephesians, were mentioned or "alluded to" in the words of the "prophecy" spoken over each individual candidate by vic..........this was how all in the church were to learn which "gift ministry(ies)" were to be operated by the newly ordained clergyman for the edification of the body of the church...............after the prophecy was given, the new clergy took the "salt covenant", administered to them by vic, to "seal and salt" the "vows" each new clergyman had taken before god and vic, to be a "faithful minister" to the church for life.......this particular ordination service went out as the usual, weekly sns tape........then coffee, cookies, and a "receiving line" of sorts, where the newly ordained clergy would "meet 'n' greet" the congregants, and receive congratulations, etc.............these folks were not corps grads, since there were'nt any yet...........the ordination "service" itself was handled by vic only during those days.........and, it was accepted that the "public" service was really only a "confirmation" of what god had already "ordained" in the lives of those so recognized, and it was assumed that every ordination was "done by revelation" to the mog from god for the body of the church as well as each individual who was ordained...........it was always considered to be a "spiritually heavy" occurrence, and the attitude was one of somber reverence for the candidate especially, as well as for vic........the only "pre-requisite" for ordination at that time was the "revelation" to vic from god to do it.........that was it!
the next ordinations i witnessed were also in the brc at hq, when the first corps graduated in august, 1972............they were done exactly the same way as i described above........i think that nancy duncan was the only woman ordained at that time, ......the rest vwere all the guys........randy anderson, earl burton, gary curtis, del duncan, bo reahard, and mike smith..........there was no such thing as corps week back then, so, these were done at a separate "service" after the first corps graduation itself............then, on to the rock '72!
then, when the second corps graduated in august of 1973, the same was done for them,...............i do not recall which women were ordained at that time, but it was only a few, and i think all the men were ordained.............again, one-at-a-time as described above, each one having vic lay his hands on them individually while "prophesying" over each one individually.........then, salt covenant, as a group,......then, onto roa '73, followed by my first year of in-rez corps "training"....................then, when the third corps graduated, the same "routine", with one major change.............not every male in the third corps was "invited" to be ordained..............which was the first time that occurred..............meaning that, even though they all graduated, obviously not every one had gift ministries according to the "revelation" given vic by god..............this was a noteable difference, and set the stage for what was to become the hierarchical, caste system among the way corps, and eventually the rest of twi.............it was now quite clear, that just because you graduated from the corps, it did not necessarily follow that you had "gift ministries", at the time of graduation, or that you would be ordained prior to "hitting the field"............again, to me, a major change vic pulled off in order to increase corps enrollment, as well as to keep the ordination thing as exclusive as possible despite the growing numbers of corps members in each successive way corps "class".
during my first in-rez year, '73-'74, it was decided that there would be, for the first time, an "interim" or "practicum year" added to the corps training, which up until then had been two consecutive years in-rez, followed by graduation...........since we were the first to "volunteer" for this, the fourth corps was given the option of doing both in-rez years consecutively, then an interim/practicum year "on-the-field" or on staff somewhere, or, to take the second year of the three as an interim/practicum year "on-the-field" somewhere or on staff, and then return in august, 1975, for our final in-rez year at hq...........of course, this meant we had to "make arrangements" for another full year of "corps sponsorship" among our sponsors, who had "signed on" for two years only when we first started, or scrounge up new sponsors.........either way, the money had to be there!
when the fouth corps graduated in august, 1976, for the first time, there were no ordinations of any of the new corps grads...........another significant change vic slipped in...........the first 4th corps ordinations took place after pfal 77, and after the rock '77................they were still performed only by vic himself, in the same manner described above, only they were done away from hq, at the end of the "weekend-in-the-word" events held in the 7 official regions of the way of the usa at that time, during the corps meetings that were held on the sunday evenings of those weekends after all the "believers" had departed for home.................i was ordained on 10/16/1977, in the blackstone hotel, on michigan ave., in chicago............this was considered an especially poignant event, because it was this same blackstone hotel in chicago, on michigan ave., where vic supposedly "practiced" the revelation manifestations, where, as he recounted in most advanced classes, god showed him who was born again or not by revealing to him a "white heart" in those who were christians, and a "black heart" in those who were not born again, or who were "possessed by devil spirits"!.............my ordination was done in the same manner described above, where i kneeled before vic, and he "laid his hands" on my head and shoulders, prophesied "by revelation" over me, and then, had me stand, while he went on to the next "candidate"...............ordained with me that night were wayne merrill, steve sann, and ken standage..............each as described above.............and then we all took the salt covenant together............vic had each of our prophecies taped for us so we could listen later, to hear which "gift ministries" we each had, and were supposed to faithfully "operate" for the rest of our lives!................there were still no corps weeks at this time.............and, vic still personally "handled" every ordination that was done here in the USA.
the 5th corps was the first to all do their interim year during the second year of the now three-year corps program, and then return for their final in-rez year at the emporia campus............the sixth corps was the first one to be centered at emporia for both in-rez years, with various "blocks" of time spent at hq and the indiana campus with the family corps...............and, the 6th was the first large group of well over 300 corps "volunteers"..........i think the first corps week was in 1979, IIRC............someone correct me if i'm wrong..............by then there were 8 regions in the usa, and, after august, 1982 there were 10.............during the "40th anniversary year" of 1981-82, ordinations took place at the end of various of the "anniversary weekends" which were staged in the 8 different regions that year.........much in the same way they were done after the weekends in the word during '77-'78...............by "invitation only" from vic, and officiated by vic................it may have been at the corps week in 1982, where, for the first time, candidates for ordination were "nominated" by the limb and region leadership "on-the-field", and by the various president's cabinet members at hq, and the "executive committee" at each "root locale".........the "nominated candidates" were "screened/reviewed" by the heads of each of the various "leadership" groups, and final decisions were made after the bot, along with those who participated in the annual "corps placement meetings", discussed each indiuvidual who was nominated, and if there was indeed, a genuine "need" in the church body served by that individual for an ordained clergyperson.............once those decisions were reached, the "nominees" were officially "invited" to be ordained, and, for the first time, vic was not to be personally involved with the "laying on of hands and prophecy" of each individual..............rather, each individual was instructed to "prayerfully consider" which previously ordained clergyperson was to "officiate" over the individual's ordination, to be held simultaneously, as a group, in the main tent on the "corps night" of that week...............a major change from vic doing each ordination himself!.........this presumed that each "candidate" trusted the individual clergyperson he/she chose to "get the revelation" regarding the presence or non-presence of "gift ministry(ies)", and get it right!.........major decentalization here!.........after the "laying on of hands and prophecy", the salt covenat was administered simultaneously to all who had "made their vows"........this is pretty much the way ordination in twi was handled from then on, until i resigned "my commission" in 1986.................although this process never precluded vic from ordaining anyone he chose, or anyone "god told him to" ordain, any time or any where he wanted to................
whatever happened after december,1986 concerning ordination in twi, i have no clue.............but, i'm sure it never got any "better"!!..........hope that answers your questions..............if not, feel free to ask more................................peace.
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fooledagainII
Thanks Don'tWorryBeHappy,
That gave me so much insight.
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Cynic
Anyone recall Wierwille purportedly ordaining any “apostles”? Who? In what TWI time period(s)?
Don’t bother with TWI’s “prophets”— I remember them seeming about as plentiful as the strutting LCs who groveled at Wierwille’s feet.
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DontWorryBeHappy
hiya cynic!.............of all the ordinations i witnessed, or was a part of, there were only two which i remember, where, during the "prophecy" over the individuals, mention of "new light" and its delivery or presentation to our "generation" was made.......both were graduates of the 2nd corps......lonnell johnson, and gerald wrenn...........there may well have been others, but i was not present for any but these two........................peace.
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Cynic
DWBH,
Thanks for the response.
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jen-o
mr. don tworry,
i'd be interested in your perspective on something (since you were around back in 1970)
and it seems to me that the way west and the way east came out of the jesus movement... and may have been part of an authentic move of God...
but my question is: do you think that "the way" became corrupt over time?... or was it corrupt right from the start?
peace,
jen-o
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likeaneagle
FYI-
Rev. L33la Dani3lsen (sp)did my wedding in 77, so there were females ordained in the early years.
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Oakspear
Who said there weren't?
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DontWorryBeHappy
hi jen-o!..........nice seeing you on this thread!...............thanks for your question...........i do have some thoughts regarding your question which , perhaps may answer it in part...........my perspective is based on hindsight, which, in many cases, may be "20/20", and, in this case, i believe it probably is.......
for the most part, i tend to agree that the "nature" of twi is difficult to separate from that of its founder.........but the "organization" we "joined" was quite a bit more enigmatic than just the overtly pathological nature of its founder, because it did suck in quite a number of folks whose "nature", motivation, and heart were markedly different from those of its founder.........i know that vic himself along with howard allen, was "corrupt" well before 1970.......his perversions, both doctrinal and personal were habitualized by him, imho, by the time he left his denominational church in van wert, in 1957.........but, twi really did'nt "take off" until after he finished filming pfal in 1968, especially in the years and locations i mentioned in my first post on this thread..........the large influx of young, idealistic, "believers" in 1969, and throughout the decade of the '70's is what i was a part of......it was'nt vic, or any of the "old timers" in ohio who witnessed to me........it was my hippie, musician friends whose genuine enthusiasm for "things spiritual", and whose marked "transformation through christ", caught my attention..........and, the many "miracles, signs and wonders" which, i believe, god wrought among us back in those days had nothing to do with vic's personal presence or involvement in our lives, but, quite the contrary, it had to do with our childlike, enthusiastic, and genuinely exuberant acceptance of christ as our risen saviour, and our innocent "believing action" upon the parts of the bible we were learning and accepting as "truth".........the fellowships we were a part of, and bringing our friends and families to were really a lot of fun!......and, the fruit of the spirit as listed in galatians 5:22,23 were evident in abundance, and were accomplishing their results in an atmosphere free from the control of vic and the growing cult machinery of hq in new knoxville!.........as a matter of fact, it was the ever increasing personal control exerted by vic with his increasing personal involvement in our lives and fellowships, which, imo, eventually stifled and strangled the genuine "revivals" god was energizing among the early twi fellowships.......this was the fruit of vic's "ministry" being brought to bear upon the ministry of jesus christ.........vic's profound corruption was becoming institutionalized among the innocent, geniune christian fellowships god and christ were "planting" around the USA, not just in twi, but in a broader "spiritual movement" that was far bigger than anything vic demanded credit for!!......imho, vic's "ministry" sowed the "tares" of his personal and doctrinal perversions among the "good seed" god and christ were sowing without any need of help from the "ministry" of "the teacher"!
the more involved believers became with vic's programs (wow, way corps, "college" division, word in business, culture, etc., etc., etc.) and classes, the more the "tares" of his corruption took root and choked the innocence and purity of holy spirit and its fruit out of the lives and fellowships of the "good seed"............and, for those of us fortunate enough to have "tasted" and experienced genuine christian revival, and who earnestly desired to see it continue and spread throughout "the world", unfettered by "man-made religion",..........the "vehicle" we thought god provided in twi, was hijacked by the "vehicle" vic provided in its stead, also called twi, but not "fueled" by god, but rather by the growing control and dominance of vic's personal perversions and corruption, eventually yielding its own "fruit" in the monster of hypocrisy, deceit, and abject immorality which the entire organization of twi grew into and remains to this day........a monument to the legacy of the "ministry" of "the teacher"........not the legacy of the ministry of jesus christ to the world..........fortunately, the two are NOT the same!
so, jen-o................imo, vic was thoroughly and irreversibly corrupt by the late '50's............and it only took him 30 more years to thoroughly and irreversibly corrupt the entire organization he "founded", and which thousands of innocent "believers" built and paid cash for, for him in the '70's and early '80's.............which he handed over to his "best friend", and his oldest biological son, and the neanderthaal intellect of the doofus from okie, so they could destroy it and its people in the late '80's and through the '90's.........and which is now run by those who are the most loyal and faithful disciples of his perversions, lies and corruption...........those who truly made vic's way, their way, which is the way international!............................peace.
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likeaneagle
Great sharing DWBH! The Revival was real..You handled this topic very well. I appreciate it.
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DontWorryBeHappy
thank you likeaneagle!................that makes me very happy indeed!..................yes.....the revival was real, and i'm glad we are a part of god's heart forever because of it!...........thanks for letting me know that post was worthwhile!..................peace.
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krys
I also appreciate your posts. These sharings require a whole lot of thought and plenty of concentration to put things down accurately - - you have no axe to grind nor any particular reason for posting other than setting down what was and what wasn't.
I got involved in '78 and I know I was part of something really dynamic and wonderful at that time. I just didn't have the good sense to get out until much too late - - just a few months short of getting my 20 year pin (!).
Thanks!
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jen-o
don, thank you for your thoughtful response and astute analysis...
i do agree with you! :)
i've often thought that there were 2 separate things going on in twi (like 2 different directions, you might say)
although i didn't get involved until 1981, i can relate to what you are saying...
in the only twig in my small college town, the people were far removed from all things "HQ-ish"...
it was a simple lifestyle with genuine love and genuine signs that followed... not corrupted by vpw...
there were also no "way corps" in my first twig...
so too with my wow year (81-82)
no way corps, small town, no interference from the "top"...
maybe that's what made it such a great year! :D
seems to me the closer one got to vpw and his "organization", the stranger things became...
something just didn't seem quite right...
i knew of a couple people back in 81-82 that went into the corps, and there was a marked difference in their personalities when i saw them just one year later...
gone were the lighthearted, carefree, loving, innocent, joyful folks i knew...
and instead, i saw troubled, anxious, fearful, rigid, almost robotic people in their place...
that really bothered me...
what the heck happened in the space of one year?!?
i think your analogy with the tares is brilliant... and spot on...
the problem with "the way" was VPW! =:~o
there was an authentic movement of God...
and wherever God was allowed to move, He did so...
vpw hitched his wagon to that genuine movement of God...
but whatever vpw touched became contaminated...
and whatever he got his hooks into only served to stifle the move of God...
while elevating and institutionalizing vpw's perversions and errors...
what a legacy, eh?
excellent analysis, don!
thanks!
and peace backatcha, :)
jen-o
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DontWorryBeHappy
you're welcome krysilis!............my pleasure..................peace.
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jen-o
oops... i guess we were posting at the same time... :D
thanks again for your analysis!
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DontWorryBeHappy
thanks for the backatchya, and the kind words jen-o!...............btw, glad you enjoy the lower case, the "infamous" ".......", and...................peace!
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DogLover
Yes, thanks for putting this all down, DWBH ... even though I was in for 23.5 years, I never knew how the ordinations came about. I always enjoy reading your posts. I was around in some of the early 70s to see that pure-hearted love folks on the field (including me) had to share with people the truth we were learning ... great love, great heart ... and if they had just left us alone instead of trying to micro-manage everything from Cornfield County, OH ... what a great move of God's Word we would have seen for much, much longer. Sigh ...but I'm thankful for what God wrought during those days ... and I believe He's still working today, just in much smaller pockets .... and not under the "flag" of any particular group.
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