penworks

Whoa. In my neighborhood somewhere! I should ask him over for tea.

Is Rico's group based in Melbourne, Florida?

For my blog response to this Parcast show, visit my website here.

Hearty congratulations, JavaJane! Book writing is no small feat, I know. I wish you much success with getting the word out about your story. You can rest assured that your efforts will help people near and far, and its journey will reward you with lots of surprises.

Cheers to the healing process via writing and reading!

Warmest wishes,

Charlene Edge

P.S. If you want to contact me, I would love to hear from you. Just send a message through https://charleneedge.com/contact

There's a video on TED Ed about why people join cults that fits the theme of this thread: deception.

I invite you to visit my blog that includes a link to the video: https://charleneedge.com/ted-ed-why-join-a-cult/

Thanks, DogLover. I see that book by Mrs. W. sells for $102.99 on Amazon. Think I'll pass. :-) It's not THAT important to me now ... it was published long after I left (in 1987) and I have enough history of TWI stashed in my own files to fill several more books of my own. But don't think I will write any more books pertaining to TWI. One was enough for me!

Thanks for posting this, Rocky. I just finished listening to both episodes. I think they did a good job researching and was grateful they cited from Karl Kahler's and Kristen Skedgell's books, and from Undertow. Not that the producers should have, but they had not contacted me prior to the podcast, so I was surprised. 

I hope the show will inform more people still in the dark about TWI, especially those who prefer to listen rather than read stories.

They did refer to The Way's official biography of Wierwille, but gave no title. Does anyone here have a copy of it? 

On 10/25/2018 at 10:10 PM, socks said:

penworks - howdy! I've got a question for you on this topic and I'm kind of spring boarding from some things in your book "Undertow".

Did you think or do you think now that Walter Cummins had any real moral or ethical platform from which he dealt with the lack of footnoting and crediting in the books? Since he'd done the time in Germany and been the bedrock of the current work we heard and saw in the Way Corps I have to wonder - in reading through what you wrote in Undertow, and what I've heard from others that were in the Research department, I don't think i've ever heard if there was an actual set of standards & guidelines for how to deal with footnoting and crediting that covered this topic of copyright and ownership. Or was it just ignored? My sense is that it was ignored but perhaps I'm just looking for a clear statement, was it ever really recognized by the teams over the years, to your knowledge? 

T'anks!

Also -  I remember you DWBH one day early in the 4th Corps when you came from VPW's study with some photo copies of pages from one of his copies of a Bullinger book - some stuff on Ephesians? Anyway it was a big deal as I recall, like there was real mojo in that paper! 

 

 

Hi Socks. I neither saw or was told any guidelines for citing sources.

Btw, in the reference books for the Aramaic project that I helped produce, included in the front matter were acknowledgements of related works done by others that were consulted.

Good detective work, RottieGrrrl. Thanks so much. Can you tell us the date of that edition of the book? 

I think it's ridiculous that they are getting any attention from anyone on the planet.

Yes, I remember it well. It was at the end of my first year in the Way Corps. I'm in that film wearing a sweat suit, running down Wierwille Road with other members of the Corps. My to-be father-in-law at that time is the preacher on stage near the end who says, "May your tribe increase." He had no idea what he was really endorsing ... what a pity so many of us spent our youth as pawns spreading VPW's propaganda.

Good morning.

If you are not a subscriber to my blogs and are interested in my two-part interview with Ralph Dubofsky regarding his first-hand experience of discovering plagiarism that Victor Paul Wierwille engaged in, here are the links to the blog posts that came out yesterday and today. Interesting they came out during The Way's 75th anniversary month 

https://charleneedge.com/part-1-of-2-victor-paul-wierwille-and-plagiarism/

https://charleneedge.com/part-2-of-2-plagiarism-v-p-wierwille/

P.S: The Comments feature on each post is now activated. 10-07-18 11:48 am.

Cheers,

Charlene

Speaking of Viktor Frankl ...  I recently returned from paying my respects at Auschwitz and Birkenau, which is in Poland. All day we walked through the former physical location of hell on earth.

Being there, I felt an even deeper shame that I ever considered Wierwille "the man of God." He not only denied the Holocaust but sold the book, The Myth of the Six Million.

When I'm ready, I'll be writing about this on my own website.

From the book's description on Amazon, "Psychiatrist Viktor Frankl's memoir has riveted generations of readers with its descriptions of life in Nazi death camps and its lessons for spiritual survival. Between 1942 and 1945 Frankl labored in four different camps, including Auschwitz, while his parents, brother, and pregnant wife perished. Based on his own experience and the experiences of others he treated later in his practice, Frankl argues that we cannot avoid suffering but we can choose how to cope with it, find meaning in it, and move forward with renewed purpose. Frankl's theory-known as logotherapy, from the Greek word logos ("meaning")-holds that our primary drive in life is not pleasure, as Freud maintained, but the discovery and pursuit of what we personally find meaningful."

The second episode was on Jehovah Witnesses. The third one coming up on Tuesday, June 5, will feature several people from different groups. Which ones they are is not disclosed on the A&E website. I am eager to tune in and find out!

On 5/27/2018 at 9:01 PM, skyrider said:

Yeah, Rocky.......ole wierwille would have never lived three more decades, but I was jousting the R&R guy on his hypocritical wierwille-adulation. 

Keeping on the railroad tracks of wierwille............Moynihans, Forts, Horneys, and others want to keep the locomotive churning down those tracks.  They can't abandon wierwille or else they lose the indoctrinated-followers that are institutionalized to the cult lifestyle and nostalgia.  Warts, sexual predator and all.......they can't stop riding on his coattails.  Else, they'd have to look in the mirror and SEE WHAT UTTER FAILURES THEY'VE BECOME.

It's just easier to keep living the dream......façade.

And, starting a non-profit organization.......gives them a lane to run in during "retirement."

What does it take to stop their getting a non-profit status?

Get ready to watch the A&E special program next week on Cults and Extreme Belief. Janja Lalich, Phd is interviewed. She enthusiastically read and blurbed my memoir, Undertow, before I published it, and with this televised interview, she will help more people understand the recruitment process.

It airs on Monday, May 28th at 10 pm, then continues at its regular time on Tuesday, May 29th at 10 pm.

Here she is in a promo clip: I posted it on my Facebook page 

You can "like" the A&E page on Facebook. Cults and Extreme Belief

About Undertow:

“A magnificently written life story that sheds light on the enticing ways of cult recruitment and indoctrination ... An important and must-read book—more gripping than a mystery, Undertow will sweep you away.”—Janja Lalich, PhD. Professor Emerita of Sociology at California State University, Chico, author of Bounded Choice: True Believers and Charismatic Cults

On ‎3‎/‎21‎/‎2018 at 12:32 PM, skyrider said:

The reasons for "displaced youth" are vast.........broken homes, abusive fathers, alcohol, sex, drugs, identity, trauma, conflicts, etc.  And then, cult leaders are conspiring to target your vulnerability.  They build their followings, and livelihoods, on the backs of "good-hearted" followers......preaching and exhorting them to faithfully witness daily to bring others into the fold.  You "earn your stripes" by witnessing and shall be rewarded in eternity for it, they preach.  The cult leaders, the big-wigs, are above the fray of door-to-door witnessing and have far more important things to attend to......but demand that witnessing is one of the highest forms of obedience.  So, cult zealots take to the streets, to college campuses, the local bookstores and nearby parks.......scanning the landscape for isolated individuals. 

The cult offered a pseudo-family......to those who gave servitude.

Every cult and splinter group knows the art of deception.

~~~~~~~~~

A quick review of wierwille and twi sheds light:

• Wierwille pastored in Paine, OH and Van Wert, OH.......and was contentious against church board
• Like a caged animal, wierwille was constantly pressing "the edges of his confinement" to find a way out
• He labeled it "spiritually searching"........others might label it "narcissistic"
• In 1953, he stole BG Leonard's foundational class and taught it as his own
• In December 1957, he breaks from church to a class-based ministry
• Teaching 10-12 classes per year (1958-1966).......most went back to their churches
• In 1967, wierwille films pfal......and then needed "instructors" to oversee film classes

It is apparent that wierwille struggled immensely for ten years to get this work jump-started.  All those years of traveling and teaching live classes yielded miniscule results.......and they struggled to pay the bills.  Even though wierwille was adept in homiletics, there were few from those nearby towns who desired to venture over to hear wierwille's teachings.  Of course, his reputation as a rabble-rousing youngster and womanizer was rumored far and wide which didn't help matters when he moved his operation from Van Wert back to the family farm.

The filmed class extended the reach of twi........and, when a few guitar players and firebrands took the stage, twi never was the same. 

Several times, when I was around Dorothy Owens or escorting her......she talked about how the hippies and younger generation revolutionized twi's thinking and standards in the late '60s.   Barefoot and out of control, they started coming to the summer camps.  Hell.....they didn't even know proper etiquette or protocol.  So, Dorothy, being the retired school teacher and all, was assigned to teach classes on dining room etiquette, proper utensils, dress and protocol. 

Looking back.......I firmly believe that it was *the youth culture* in twi, and surrounding its events, that was so enticing.  In utopian bliss, this cult-ure was to refrain from all negatives......everything was "great."  How are you today?  "As He is".......or....."In the heavenlies" was the reply.  Smiles, and hugs and greeted with kisses.......what's not to like?  Not a care in the world (God's got it covered.)  A world without responsibility.  Rock of Ages camping......where you stayed up half the night talking with others from distant lands.  The youth factor begot MORE youth.  Girls and guys everywhere......on an eternal "spring break."  Who needs Ft. Lauderdale when you've got the rock of ages?   It's not necessarily the beach that's the destination.......it's the people and the drunken fun.

Sure, the Bible and all was deeply important........but the passions and likeminded youth culture were mesmerizing. 

Around 1974, wierwille's arrogance could not contain itself as the corps program was growing in leaps and bounds.  Visions of grandeur were dancing in his head and he was going to show church elders from New Knoxville to Van Wert, he was exhibiting the great power of God.  His narcissism had bloomed. 

We thought we were free.

We thought we were serving the Lord.........until the scales fell from our eyes.

 

 

 

Thank you for this post, Skyrider. You sum up what the overall atmosphere was at that time, and it had a little "utopian" feel to it for sure. I was at HQ in the 2nd Corps, 1971 - 1973. We felt invincible for God. We felt our goal was what God wanted, "The Word Over the World." But it was a man's goal, an egotistical, ridiculous idea ... to put it mildly.

 You mention local ministers at that time. Recently, I got a note from a current minister in New Knoxville, Ohio. He gave me permission to publish it on my blog, so here's the link if you're interested https://charleneedge.com/echo-in-new-knoxville-ohio-minister-reads-undertow/

Some of you know I have a connection with the International Cultic Studies Association. They just sent this notice that I thought I'd share with you.

Research Survey on Experiences of Born/Raised

Please Consider Participating

If you identify as someone who was born or grew up in a high demand religious organization, a high intensity faith group, or a cult, and had counseling while either in or after you were in that group, we would like to invite you to participate in a short 20-25 minute survey.

If you are interested, please go here: https://unt.az1.qualtrics.com/jfe/form/SV_0wuUIwXSPshTnE1

The research is conducted by Dr. Cyndi Matthews of the University of Louisiana at Monroe, Ashley Allen, ICSA Outreach Coordinator, and Elisha Cox, a social work intern working with Ms. Allen. The research study was approved by the University of Louisiana at Monroe’s institutional review board.

If you have any questions, please contact Dr. Matthews: cyndersm@verizon.net.

Please feel free to share with anyone you think would be interested in participating.

Short answer to Rocky's original question in my opinion is NO. Toxic manipulation called love bombing is not good ... understatement of the universe. 

Hi, this is Charlene Edge writing to say that Undertow is my insider story of 17 years in The Way, serving as a leader and biblical researcher for Wierwille's agenda.

You can read chapter one of Undertow for FREE at http://charleneedge.com.

Cheers,

Charlene 

17 hours ago, GoldStar said:

Hi Penworks, 

That is very interesting that you would say that, it would be very interesting to be able to verify that we are talking about the same Cat Woman (there are many of them here where I live, and I have even seen more than one publicly at Woman outfits), but I do not have a picture of the Cat Woman in question and my memory is too vague to sketch a reasonable facsimile of her. 

Of course if seeing her happened today, it might have been possible to surreptiously snap a quick picture of her with my phone and text it to you, but alas, phone cameras were not around back then.  I received a picture of someone I was dating all the way from across the the other side of the world (Rome) a few years ago, my the wonders of technology.  She was not a Cat Woman, she was more of a Dog Woman, and our dating ended abruptly when she began to bark and bite.

I was invited to a live presentation of that "awful dance production" as you call it, if I recall correctly, it may have been the very first public presentation of it, and I even met some of the dancers. I do not remember whether the Cat Woman I saw at the cafeteria was the lead dancer in the dance production, I don't even remember thinking about that at the time. But that dance production never reached Broadway and has been out of production for a long time.  But I believe the Broadway musical Cats did have a very long run. I believe there were Cat Women in that production also.

I don't remember the dance production in excruciating detail since the memory of it has faded in my mind, although I do remember someone telling me that LCM had stated that that particular dance production idea was stolen from him (by spirits) and used as the foundation for parts of the movie "Stayin' Alive" with JT.

And thank you for your welcome, I did read some of your posts here before signing up, and you seem to be one of the good-willed, well-reasoned people here, I hope that we can have good intellectual conversations here.

I am familiar with some TWI history because over a period of time, I was invited to numerous events and activities and teachings where I saw many interesting things, including Cat Woman.  But I never saw Bat Man or Robin. But coincidentally, I am actually watching Wonder Woman (the old TV series) on TV right now.  Linda Carter had such natural beauty.  I also fed a couple of feral cats (one female, black) that come around to my place frequently, but only because I feed them occasionally.  I learn so much by observing their behavior, both in their interactions with me, and with each other.

I have made a couple of good real cat friends in the past, by feeding them and winning their affection even though at first they were both very skittish (or kittish - lol), but they eventually ended up letting me pet them, and one would even come to my front door and knock on it with his head to let me know when he arrived for his meals.

It amazed me that I could make friends with another, wild species.  If only the cat women of this area were as friendly :)

And thank you for you offer to help.  I will take a look at your profile.  Maybe we can compare notes and learn some history from each other.  I enjoy learning. I enjoy watching cats. And I have met some Cat Women, but have never been scratched by one, though some have tried. :)

P.S. ~ did you know that it is not a good idea to publish personal information like your full name on publicly available websites like this one - it's to protect your id - just a suggestion

P.S.S. ~ how can you be sure that the Cat Woman I saw is the same one who starred in the dance production.  Isn't it possible it was another Cat Woman with a similar body suit?  Did the one you refer to have dark hair or light hair?

You're right. That "cat woman" may not be the one I'm thinking of.

Also, I've published a book using my real name so stating my real identity here is no big deal to me. My own website, too, is public.

Hi there Goldstar. I happen to know exactly who that so-called Cat Woman was, but decline to name her here. But yes, she starred in that awful "dance" production that LCM was in, titled: Athletes of the Spirit. A totally bogus interpretation of Ephesians 6.

So welcome to GSC. There's plenty of TWI history to be found here. If you have questions about years 1970 - 1987, I'd be happy to help. You can check my profile here at GSC for more on that.

Cheers,

Penworks, a.k.a. Charlene Lamy (Bishop) Edge

I am interested in finding out what the top reasons were for people getting involved with The Way International.

On ‎1‎/‎31‎/‎2018 at 9:31 AM, skyrider said:

Unraveling the cult indoctrination..........is an arduous undertaking. 

Lots of overlapping ethics and principles.......but it takes honesty, humility, receptiveness, reflection, etc. 

Everything that you've been taught or experienced in the cult is suspect.......no stone should be left unturned.

In the letter posted above, Melody Ann starts the unraveling process.  She may or may not know it yet, but she ALREADY is working her way back to wierwille's cult structure, false teachings, and deceptive agenda:

• .......manmade policies and mandates  /  squelching the spirit of God within
• .......The Book of Acts does not support a headquarters type of structure with 3 or more leading the entire ministry from the top
• .......already, she has read the book, "The Subtle Power of Spiritual Abuse"
• .......yet, still wants recognition and approval from board members to claim *emeritus status*.........[More to unravel ---- one foot in, one foot out]
• .......twi became micromanagers dictating what to teach and what not to teach......[Umm, this has been going on for decades!]
• .......tithing – is not in the Grace Administration.........[and just wait till you start questioning wierwille's "dispensationalism" doctrine]
• .......no research department.......realizing that the cult leaders' positions and teachings are firmly cemented.  No change is forthcoming....

The corps program was indoctrinated *followship*............NOT leadership.

And, splinter groups are NOT the answer either.

I knew this woman, but not well. Like most of us, she was idealistic, kind, and good intentioned. So why did she stay so long? IMO, time spent in the cult is relative to a person's needs. What strikes me is how a person misses or denies or misinterprets warning signs. I suppose part of it has to do with survival. Like her, I did that for years, too, especially the misinterpreting or rationalizing of warning signs. Psychologists tell us it's because there's a need in a person to cling to the status quo ... a variety of reasons are clear, i.e. fear of loss of community, loss of certainty, loss of feeling secure about "knowing the truth." I think we all can relate. It's a need so great that admitting what we're doing or believing or giving our loyalty to is bad, or a fraud, or a con, is just too much. We'd crack. Don't we all remember when we "woke up" and how hard that was to admit we had been duped or abused or stolen from?

For some of us we nearly did crack up. Some I know have spent time in mental health hospitals, or are in serious therapy, or on heavy medication, or have lost themselves to alcohol or drugs. Or suicide.

Breaking up is hard to do. Some people had a casual involvement in TWI. Others were encased in it like in an airtight plastic bag. Breaking free is HARD. I think it's a miracle any of us are here and able to compose a complete sentence. Maybe I should speak for myself, but truly, for those of us who were sold out for so long and gave so much, creating another life post-TWI has been VERY hard work and if it weren't for many good people (many are here on GSC), healing love, education, and time, I can't imagine what would have become of me...

So If you ever read this, Melanie,  STAY STRONG and breathe deep. It's possible to heal a little every day with love, education, and time.

And I ditto what Skyrider said, that Offshoot groups formed by former WAY leaders are not a good option because in general they repeat the patterns from TWI. Besides, bottom line is that the Bible is always open to interpretation by man. The notion of "the accuracy of The Word" is just that, just a notion. No one has it. It can't be had. But that doesn't mean you cannot find valuable things in the Bible. Just question what people tell you it "means."

Cheers,

Penworks  a.k.a. Charlene Lamy (Bishop) Edge

I can be reached at http://charleneedge.com/Contact

Love you, Socks and DWBH!