penworks

Ha, I edited that out just as you commented on it...but glad you liked it. I felt it was too snippy but since you liked it, enjoy! Thanks and good night. Charlene

This is a major reason I wrote my article. Some of my daughter's friends who were raised in twi still believe VPW is their father in "the word." They have no idea of the meaning of these terms, or rather the FALSITY of them. These people are now more than 30 years old and swimming around in a fog believing this hideous assertion of VP as their spiritual Father in The Word and are clueless as to what the term "The Word" means, which I was too because I didn't stop and realize it refers to something that does not exist: the originals of the Bible texts. VPW himself pointed this out in PFAL. I just didn't THINK about the implications back then when I was only 18 years old. PFAL book, pg.128: "What students or scholars refer to as originals really date from 430 and later. These manuscripts are not originals [he's right about that]...at best we have copies of the originals. [most scholars say we have copies of copies of copies of copies etc. of the originals]. When I refer to the Word of God, I do not mean a copy or a translation or a version; I mean that Word of God which was originally given by revelation to holy men." BUT NO ONE HAS THEM. ORIGINALS DO NOT EXIST. How do you refer to something that does not exist? The term "the Word of God" does not refer to any thing in our possession. These kids have no knowledge of the fact that there are no originals of the Bible texts about which the claim of "perfect" was made by VPW and is made by Fundamentalists. It's made about something THAT DOES NOT EXIST. Am I repeating myself? Yes. On purpose. My daughter struggles with how to penetrate this thinking her friends have, that NEVER was addressed by their own parents. For various reasons, I'm sure. As a parent, I felt it imperative that I try and sort out what the heck I had been believing all those years so I could explain to my child why I left such a system and just why it was not good for me or for her. She was 12 years old when we left. It's an ongoing process but thankfully has not held us back from creating new, productive lives. BTW - I'm sure some readers will not agree with me about the non-existence of "The Word" but I welcome their ideas. But I'll say right off that I think most of those "keys to research" that VPW preached in order to "get back to the original" don't fit the locks. They are subjective tools used to create someone's interpretation of whatever version they're using. That's another thread or topic or article, though... For this second generation, there are sources of Way history and practices that cover the 1970s like The Cult that Snapped, Losing The Way, 2 books by TheWritingMachine, a couple of other memoirs, and tons of information written here at GSC by people who were around in the 70s. Of course, the problem is, as I have heard it, may of these kids (who are adults now) would NEVER DARE read any of it for fear of getting possessed by devil spirits or something. Has anyone else heard this fear they have? Good grief. Are we still living in the dark ages? I've heard rumors that these kids (again, they're actually adults now) think GSC is full of "negatives" about twi and that's just not "acceptable" to say the least. On the other hand, I had a professor from Rollins write me today and say how civil the dicussion on this thread was and complimented the people here at GSC on that. Kudos to ya'll. It's my hope that somehow this second generation can start thinking for themselves...it may take more work than they expect, so I suggest they start ASAP. That's it for tonight. Thanks everyone for listening and contributing to this thread. I've learned so much from you. Charlene

Okay, one last book recommendation and I'm done for now. Emotional Awareness - A Conversation Between the Dalai Lama and Paul Ekman, PhD. Forward by Daniel Goleman. It's about overcoming the obstacles to psychological balance and compassion. I read it because religious issues are often emotional ones and I needed help in dealing with them. I'm still working on it. I found it HELPFUL, just sayin'... Cheers, Penworks

Thanks for chiming in here. You raise important issues. I would like to refer back to the statements I made in post #25 above as a reminder that I am asking questions, just like everyone else. That's what led me to the place where I am in now. I lean heavily on the still small voice and find inspiration in the words of many writers on these topics, and as I said in the statement above the booklist, " Here is a reading list that may be useful." If it is not useful to you, don't read them. That list and the article were intended to be my personal contributions to the conversations here at GSC. I'd like to point out that even though you might not have intended this, when the following types of statements are made they come across as trying to intimidate the reader: "I am surprised that in 72 hours you can question the basis of your faith on the basis of a few people's opinons. Every author I read on that list is refuted by another scholar. Are you going to read them all?" Maybe she is going to read them all. She's a grown up, she can make up her own mind. It's safe to say she's on her own journey like the rest of us who are sorting things out. At this point, I'd like to remind everyone of the opening line of my article which makes it clear who my intended audience was: "Are you someone questioning the value of Biblical research done by The Way International (TWI) or groups run by former Way followers? I am. If you are, then what I have to say may interest you." If you're not questioning, then disregard my article in good old File 13. It's only my contribution, one person's opinion, not the "truth" of the matter certainly nor the end of my own "reading" life certainly. No, I'm not a bible scholar. That's clear from my memoir and bio at the end. I just ask questions. I just like to think and read... Cheers!

These are honest questions and since I started all this whirlwind, I'll try to say something here... I think each person would want to address them on their own. They are, IMO, matters of faith not reason. I venture to say that some people form beliefs about them without necessarily accepting the idea that the Bible is "perfect." To me, they are matters to which theology poses answers. Theology (the study of the nature of God and religious issues) is a big topic with a long history, and since I am not a theologian, I can't offer answers to these questions. What I can offer is my view: that there are no pat answers. The challenge is to admit we're always taking someone's word (for the most part) for whatever "answers" come our way about anything. We trust a lot of things for which we do not have "proof" or understand (except maybe you scientists out there) - like electricity. We can't see it, hear it, smell it, taste it or touch it (hope not) but it is real and we rely on it. For me, trusting what even VPW used to call "the still small voice" inside (isn't it ironic that even HE used to encourage us to do that?) is what's been the best help to me over the years post-TWI. Willima James masterpiece, The Varieties of Religious Experience, is a good source for thinking about these issues, too. It's huge, though. I've only read some of it but found it helpful...and comforting. Enjoy life! We only get one (as far as I know ) Cheers! Charlene

I've been thinking about these sorts of things a long time, myself. One thing I found is that there are other ways to value the Bible besides thinkig it is has to be either "God's Word" (thereby it has to be perfect because God is perfect) or a "bunch of stories" like you said. When someone says "a bunch of stories" to me it seems to belittle the documents in the Bible. I don't think we need to do that. I don't think you intended that, right? There are other good options to valuing the literature of the Bible that respect the culture and writers of these documents. After all, it's a book of rich imagery, myth, cultural viewpoints, personal accounts, and yes, there are stories - good ones that teach interesting lessons - and there is much wisdom to be found between those two covers, in my view it is mostly found in Ecclesiates and parts of Proverbs, for instance. But IMO it should not be my only rule of faith and practice, nor should I attribute to it qualities it does not have. And it is unfair of me to expect it to apply to me today in most instances. That's where we run into trouble accusing people of not being believers like they did in the epistles of Paul. But that's another long story... Anyway, I think one thing we face in this discussion is VPW's tendency to pose EITHER/OR questions. That thinking forces us to make a choice between only those two ways of looking at the Bible. It rules out FOR US any other ways. I know one thing, it certainly intimidated me from investigating other ways and making up my own mind. This is a big topic, so I'll stop for now. My intention here is just to shed a little more light on this subject than I did in the article on the front page. Cheers!

"...critical thinking skills are like a muscle; either use it or lose it." I think there's a lot of truth in this; in my own experience, at least...and that was what finally got me out of TWI: awakening that faculty of my mind. The memoir I wrote, An Affinity for Windows, which is now posted here at GSC (front page link), is meant to show how that happened for me. Maybe it'll make sense for others...guess I'm tooting my own horn, but why not? It fits this topic, right? Peace, Charlene

You brought out a good point when you said,"The inerrancy of the Bible is an AXIOM, something assumed to be true without proof. For me, a fundamentalist, it is not only reasonable but also makes the Bible more than just a bunch of short stories." Actually, that is my point, that it is something assumed to be true without proof. No one, to the best of my knowledge, has ever shown it to be "true." For that reason, it is in the category of belief. Which is fine. Most people just don't come out and say it is their belief. They say it is the truth. And you are right, it is not only a TWI "problem" as you said. It is an assumption made by anyone who believes the Bible is the Word of God. VPW said this sort of thing all the time. PFAL book, page 128: "If it is God's Word, then it cannot have a contradiction for God cannot contradict Himself. Error has to be either in the translation or in one's own understanding. When we get back to the original, God-breathed Word - which I am confident we can - then once again we will be able to say with all the authority of the prophets of old, "Thus saith the Lord." Not having a contradiction means without error, which is inerrancy. Anything without error is perfect. Has anyone shown the Bible in its completion to be perfect? Which canon and which translation of which version would you use to show it? Those are questions to which I have no answers...do you? These are honest questions I've been asking myself for a long time...my conclusion is it is okay not to have answers. Life is bigger than this... Peace, Charlene

Thanks for the compliment above, DWBH, but I need to say that I shy away from any claims to having more of "god's perspective." I'm sure you understand where that can lead! But I agree with you that it is VERY important to say something about the value of perspectives; some are better, healthier, and more sound minded than others. Cheers!

DWBH wrote: "my engines just can't take this one captain!! imho, there's as much twi influence in stiffy as there is in cffm, the geerites, and any other twi offshoot/way tree splinter group! they pay constant homage to the "great truths" der vicster taught them, brag about the fact that wierwille, the founder of twi and stiffy theology, would be proud of what they're doing, and every single person who sits on their exalted BOD is an ex-wayfer! ( "ex" nominally at least). and yet, you state billy, how very happy you are to see much of the twi influence go away???????????????? DWBH has questions that no one from those groups has answered yet, at least here at this site that I know of. How come? As far as I know, another reason they cannot get away from TWI's influence (besides the fact former TWI people are running them like DWBH pointed out) is that as far as I can tell, they continue to use as their foundation, the following from PFAL book, pg.5: "The first and most basic key for power for abundant living is that the Bible is the revealed Word and Will of God. This key is the greatest secret in the world today. It is a secret not because God is keeping it to Himself; it is a secret because people have not believed." STOP. These three sentences are LOADED with assumptions but the one point I want to make here is this: The definition of a "secret" is something that is hidden, NOT something that is not believed. Merriam Webster defines a secret as something, "kept from knowledge or view." However, for something to be BELIEVED, it has to be KNOWN first, then it can be accepted or rejected. A secret is NOT KNOWN. So of course, it cannot be believed or rejected yet. Right off the bat, when I heard this I should have started asking questions. VPW changed the meaning of an ENGLISH word seemingly at his whim right in the first session of PFAL right under my nose. And I let him get away with it. Why did I do that? For one thing, I WANTED what he taught me to be true. The reasons for that are complex and personal; as are everyone else's. IMO, I think the best thing to do is to take each sentence of what people say or write and THINK ABOUT IT before we get caught up in believing it and then paying money to learn more about it. Peace, Charlene

Well, the fact remains that TWI and its offshoots are fundamentalist Christian groups (the term "Christian" is questionable, I know) and while some people like that sort of system because it seems to offer a sense of certainty about stuff like what the Bible REALLY says, etc, lots of other people aren't interested in that system. For starters, they find it a system of denial about all sorts of things. Things like the cultural roots of Christianity are vastly different than the society we live in today, so to try and recreate the first century church today is a pipe dream (not to mention there was no clear-cut first century church, but that's another story). That's just a tiny starter... Personally, I find TWI and its offshoots as suffocating as a blanket over my head. Guess I feel pretty opinionated this morning... Anyway,no matter how many certificates they hand out for good attendance, I'm pretty sure they would not want me back, I ask too many questions... The one I'm asking myself right now is, what the heck I'm doing up at this hour on Sunday morning - oh, someone had the bright idea to change the time BACKWARDS. How do you reset your sleep cycle? Peace and happy November! Where does the time go? Oh, yeah...it goes backwards, which is okay for ONE day but I sure hope they don't decide to crank it back 20 years. Although some groups seem to be trying to do that... Peace, Charlene

This part of DWBH's post is one of the most shocking and disturbing things I've ever heard about John S. I used to know him. I worked with him on the Research Team 1984-86. "...among the most disturbing things john s. said to me during our last conversation, was the following:........." i remember one time, on the motorcoach with doctor, when he said to me, that if i remained faithful, i'd be able to take the research of the word further than he ever could have imagined possible in his lifetime. well, i believe i have remained faithful to the word, and i believe we (ces/stfi) have done exactly that and we're continuing to do so, just like doctor wierwille said. i honestly believe that."...........so, john s. apparently still sees his "calling" to be the same as his "father-in-the-word" laid it out for him "back in the day"!!..........same "basic research principles" without the more nasty mistakes vic and twi "stumbled into"!.............now that really is something vic would be "very proud of"!!............sic!............i question the "spiritual" and intellectual judgement of those who would be "blessed" that vic would be "very proud" of anything they say or do!!.............nothing like the posthumous pride of a mean-spirited, alcoholic, narcissistic, sociopathic, serial sexual predator, to validate your "ministry"!! Learning this makes today a very sad day for me...and I will email John myself...this is very scary. Charlene

I agree that not everything we were taught was a lie, such as verses that tell us to love one another, etc. Broad truths like that are good and true, obviously. But we need to remember TWI was built on a man-made theology inherited from various sources. I'm glad Research Geek posted those thoughts here so we could take a few minutes and think about some of the points in that post. I've selected just a few of his remarks to respond to: "...twi realized that things had gone too far because people were leaving in droves, so they racheted rfr's changes back to a "kinder gentler" version and that is where they are now." This reflects a popular belief that there was a "kinder gentler" version of the past TWI days to go back to. I don't know when that was. I think he should explain that statement. "This time will be a real catharsis. Just hold fast to that which is good. But in the end, you should be better and stronger for it." I agree. Each person needs to sort out what that "good" was and question EVERYTHING; start from scratch in my opinion. "you still have a Godly calling and that ministry is directed towards other believers, so it functions best within a body of some kind." This is an assumption of many people when they want to perpetuate Christian groups. This thinking was promoted by the Apostle Paul to build his organization. Think carefully about whether or not this is what you want to do. "For example, there are a whole lot of people in twi who know things are wrong and have decided to try to change it from within." In my view, they would need to know what to change TWI into. What would that be? The fact is, the nature of a group like that is a closed system and the foundation is rooted too deep to change. Disassociation from the group and starting a new life is better. There IS A WHOLE WIDE WORLD out here and plenty of chances to meet fabulous people and learn things and ENJOY LIFE. Peace, Charlene

I think it's a gross misstatement to conclude that GSC is "Just filled with people who are ....ed and feel their 20s and 30s were stolen in the 70s and 80s." I do think it's fair to say many people come here to sort through the years they spent in TWI and try to create meaning from their experiences and find understanding from them, not to mention find out facts about certain events in TWI and teachings propounded by TWI. Please try and refrain from making sweeping generalizations about the people who post here. Thanks, Charlene

Don't kid yourself.

If you Google his name, you'll find some info. I don't know whether he pursued a degree in Bible studies.

John Schoenheit was a grad of the 6th Corps and a member of the research team from Aug. 1983 (at least) - Oct. 1986 when he got fired for writing the paper on adultery. I worked with him on the research team at HQ from Aug. 1984 - Aug. 1986. His focus was Old Testament history and Oriental customs. He taught classes on these topics to the Way Corps. He often answered research-oriented letters from people who wrote to VP or Walter Cummins, the head of the research dept. Often his answers were published in the Way Magazine. He headed up the trip to the Bible Lands in Oct. 1985. His approach to interpreting the Bible is much the same as VPWs - fundamentalist in nature.

I'm sure you have and you're not the only one. I tried in 1987 before all this got rolling...in my living room in Florida I explained to JAL that verses like II Peter 1:20,21 were not sure-fire truths for me, as far as referring to Genesis to Revelation like VPW said. (there's a thread here about that). But JAL was too wound up with his ideas to hear me...he said he didn't have time for all that sort of research. I clearly remember this because it shocked me so much. For me, I could not run around saying, Thus saith the Lord, if I wasn't sure just what the Lord said. Within the last year on the Way Corps site when I reminded him of that talk we had, he told me he doesn't remember that conversation since he's had so many conversations with so many people.

Welcome to GSC, Beanaboos! There are lots of topics here that we hope you find helpful. As far as Childrens Fellowship goes, I helped coordinate some of the fellowships for children during the 1970s and early 1980s in California and Florida and at Childrens Camp during Corps week. I remember some of it was fun but the doctrine, as many of us feel now, was dogmatic and repressive, to say the least. VPW used to say when a child was born to TWI parents, "That is how we get 'em into the Way ministry!" He said this on the video "Changed" made in 1977, and although he laughed and the audience laughed, he meant it, believe me. IMO, that thinking is terrible (again an understatement). For many, children were a means to TWI's end: getting the Word (VP's interpretation of the Bible) over the world. Obviously, that is a repulsive idea to those of us who finally woke up and left and took our kids with us! I left TWI in 1987 and can tell you that Wordwolf's run-down of events is very good. There are some other topics about childrens fellowship here that I think you can find when you use the Search feature. Also, the Writing Machine web site that cheranne mentioned is very good, too! Wishing you the best! Charlene

Yid, I realize you have been through a tramatic experience with the healings you mention and it seems that you feel deeply that the benefits you got from TWI are worth defending. That is your personal business. But when you come here and defend VP in such uninformed ways and dogmatic ways, I have to say I am worried about your frame of mind. Where you are getting these ideas about how great VP was regardless of his behavior? Ideas that are so hurtful not only to yourself but to others (to say the least)as many of these posts show. I hope you are reading them all. There is much to learn from people here at GSC who have suffered and yet have learned lessons that are helpful to others. Now, I'm going to offer a section from a book that you probably will not like but give it a chance. Think about it. I am posting it because it speaks to the kind of person I used to be - yes, I was a fanatic for many years in TWI - and the kind of thinking I see in your post seems fanatical to me. It is not reasoned, but is driven by an emotional dogmatic reaction to facts and testamonies about VPW and his writings here that you find hard to accept. I suspect that they are hard to accept because if you accept them, you have to give up something you cherish. That thing you cherish is your apparent belief in the value of VP's interpretations of the Bible, many of which WERE COPIED, and to give that up is hard. I know, I did it. But your life is worth more than defending their propaganda. You can ignore what I have to say and what others here say if you want, but if you do, maybe at some point you will re-read what we've said and reconsider that what you cling to in your post is indefensible and that how you struck out at us was reckless, with accusations like, "I come in here to connect and all I see is absolute hate." To me, since you do not even know me, this is not only insulting, to me it is awful. Do you understand that by saying that, you are accusing me and everyone else of being hateful in the posts we've written. If you've seen hate here, you should qualify where it came from. I would hope you might consider apologizing to those of us here who try hard to be helpful and honest. Let's try and steer clear of fanaticism of any kind, which is driven by negative emotions and shows up in statements like that one you made. This excerpt is from a book called, The True Believer – Thoughts on the Nature of Mass Movements by Eric Hoffer. Harper & Row Publishers, Inc. N.Y. 1951. "It goes without saying that the fanatic is convinced that the cause he holds on to is monolithic and eternal – a rock of ages. Still, his sense of security is derived from his passionate attachment and not from the excellence of his cause. The fanatic is not really a stickler to principle. He embraces a cause not primarily because of its justness and holiness but because of his desperate need for something to hold on to. Often, indeed, it is his need for passionate attachment which turns every cause he embraces into a holy cause. The fanatic cannot be weaned away from his cause by an appeal to his reason or moral sense. He fears compromise and cannot be persuaded to qualify the certitude and righteousness of his holy cause. But he finds no difficulty in swinging suddenly and wildly from one holy cause to another. He cannot be convinced but only converted. His passionate attachment is more vital than the quality of the cause to which he is attached." (p84) Good luck to you, Charlene

Be not fooled. What waysider is saying is important and critical to our understanding of the history of TWI. One thing I want to add: many of us while we were "in" TWI mistakenly gave thanks to VPW and his group, TWI, for things and events for which we should have given thanks only to God. One of the major challenges in leaving TWI is untangling the big parts of our experiences during our association with TWI as if it were a gigantic ball of string. For me, this ball of string consisted of God (my perception of God), the gospel accounts of Jesus, the ministry of Paul, The Bible as a whole, VPW's beliefs, his personality, his strengths and his weaknesses, and overall moral conduct including his interpretation or misinterpretation of the Bible; TWI as an organization; the actions of followers trained by VPW; the overall context of VPW's belief system, which is Fundamentalism; the aspects of cult behavior, etc. The list goes on. Until we do this work, we will continue to see people give VPW undeserved credit for many positive things in our lives that happened during the years we just happened to spend associated with TWI. For all we know, they would have happened without TWI. There is a God outside TWI, after all. One of VPW's strengths was his ability to motivate people and get them to equate his organization with that of the Apostle Paul's. This was done indirectly and yet anyone who was around for any length of time got the hint. I do not remember a time when VPW deterred us from claiming his teachings and ministry saved our lives. IMO, rather than let that go on, he should have corrected this thinking and directed us to say God saved our lives, not him or his organization.

I agree. It's mortifying (understatement) to admit I followed such a person...

...."biblical research" became wierwille-endorsed interpretations of scripture." I think there is plenty of evidence to show this did not "become;" it was from the start...

Fantastic list, Geisha779. Thanks for adding this insighful information. It is an important distinction to repeat...that faith and education are distinctly different, and as far as reading is concerned, there is no end. And as far as interpretations of what "faith" is, or what "Christianity" is, there is no end either it seems... As a friend of mine recently said, "Scholarship does not lead one to God. And one's faith does not justify unethical behavior especially when one is exploiting the minds and lives of young [or any aged] people." He said that in reference to many ill effects of TWI's and it offshoots' efforts to promote and indoctrinate their beliefs as The Truth. BTW - I'm currently reading, The Gutenberg Elegies - The Fate of Reading in the Electronic Age by Sven Birkerts. Let's hope reading lives on! Cheers!