penworks

VPW, as far as working on these Aramaic projects himself, had NOTHING to do them - not with the translation, interlinear, or concordance. He was interested in producing them, however, because George Lamsa steered him in that direction, claiming Aramaic was the original written language of the scriptures. Other than supporting the work with his interest and using ministry funds to pay Corps people to work on these projects, VPW was not directly involved. I know. I helped work on these projects in minor ways, doing editing and checking, and was part of the group who completed the Concordance in 1985. My training was primarily from Bernita Jess, the woman who "coordinated" Aramaic studies for years in TWI. There are other threads here on GSC about all this... Dan Mc*&(%$, who is mentioned above, did not work on these projects while I was involved. He does have a degree from Unvi. of Chicago and focused on Aramaic, but did other textual research and was "stationed" at the Emporia campus, not HQ where these projects were done. The other people besides me who did work on the Aramaic projects are people I'm not sure want their identies mentioned here. They had degrees and training in Syriac from the Univ. of Chicago. The translation involved in this lawsuit, as far as I know (it was completed after I resigned from the Research Team at HQ in 1986), was not plagiarized. From what I've seen on the Internet at various sites, it is respected as a decent research tool for those interested in such things. Cheers!

This is a sad commentary, but a common one in fundamentalism. These groups claim to have the only truth. It's hard to admit you might not. I know. I was just like the friend you described until one day I cracked open. Check out www.TED.com for quick 3 minute talks on the subject by Karen Armstrong. Just type her name in the Search field. You might be surprised at what you discover. Good night and good luck.

From vpw's 6 pg. letter to the Corps dated October 20, 1978: "They got seriously involved and "hooked" into a subject known as eschatology, which is far too advanced for their abilities in research at this time." fyi - For those interested, here's some info from http://www.religioustolerance.org/millenni.htm "Eschatology is a Christian term that means the study of the end of history from a religious perspective. Probably more obscure theological text has been written on this topic than on any other belief in Christendom. The Bible contains many prophecies about the future. The Christian Scriptures (New Testament) in particular talks extensively about the return of Jesus Christ to this earth. This is usually called his "second coming," or "parousia." The Gospel of Matthew, Chapter 24, is devoted to this topic, as is much of the book of Revelation, and 1 Thessalonians 4:16-18." IMO, although vpw went ahead and later invited some of us to be on the team, the clamp down from this episode had lasting effects...

M&A as a term didn't get used when I was involved 1970-1987, but the practice sure was in place. After I left, I first heard the term in 1998 from someone who would know about it. *************** “I say that religion isn’t about believing things. It’s ethical alchemy. It’s about behaving in a way that changes you, that gives you intimations of holiness and sacredness.” Karen Armstrong, authority on comparative religions

Karen Armstrong’s Wish “I wish that you would help with the creation, launch and propagation of a Charter for Compassion, crafted by a group of leading inspirational thinkers from the three Abrahamic traditions of Judaism, Christianity and Islam and based on the fundamental principles of universal justice and respect.”

Happy belated b/day ex10. Many happy wishes to you for a great year ahead. Love and hugs, penworks

Happy belated birthday, Paw. Hope you enjoyed it! Many good wishes for your continued health and happiness and many many thanks for helping us all here at Greasespot by providing this site! Cheers! penworks

Hi there everyone. Boy, I ask one little question and boom. Anyhow, I figured I'd chime in since I feel a little bit responsible for starting all these murmurings and disputings (that comment is for the twi loyals who read here.) Granted, I've paid lots of $ for information about the Bible over the years, including the PFAL class. I've paid LOTS of money to learn about the history of the Bible, for instance, which has only enriched my understanding and prompted me to ask more questions. What concerns me about paying for classes or books that are mostly propaganda intended to indoctrinate and often intimidate the students is that the claims made in them are to benefit the people making the claims, not the students. The information - or rather propaganda - is often used as a way to strong-arm the hearers into giving money, commitment, time, love, etc. solely to the group providing the class or book. IMO this is anti-education. It does not promote healthy questioning and growth in the student. To me real education lies in helping the student learn to think, to develop his or her own talents, and in doing so, add to the grand conversation and development of "civilization." But consider the source of these comments: A person who has a liberal arts education and has often been told she reads, thinks, and talks too much. Cheers!

I love this quote, WW. From what I've observed over the years it seems people don't speak up and/or aren't willing to, regardless of the kind of group -- religious or political or even in business --until they are directly negatively affected. It usually has to get personal. When it is, they know for themselves without a doubt that something is wrong and are willing to take a risk on their own behalf. Otherwise, we like the status quo usually. But I'm no psychologist... It was true for me ...it took a personal experience to pry me out of my "tunnel vision" before I left twi. Until then, I did not inquire as to why others "left" or "tripped out." I accepted the party line that they were decieved or possessed. I'm ashamed of that. Then it was my turn, then I found myself in a position of thinking something was unjust. Then it was worth fighting for myself and what I thought was good. Peace. And Happy Thanksgiving to all! Penworks

I agree Karl does do a good job with that. And I like your recounting of the often-heard: "...infamous "there's gotta be a text that says such-and-such" statements, bending definitions, out-of-context interpretations." I call that scriptural gymnastics which is used to prove whatever you want. IMO, the term "research" was defined in twi according to what vpw believed, for the most part, and whatever he thought should be "ackrit" (that's a literal translation according to usage of the word "accurate"). From what I've seen, most fundamentalists who try and prove inerrancy do this, too, to one degree or another. IMO inerrancy is an erroneous way to approach the texts in between those 2 covers. But that's another topic... Cheers!

WordWolf: That's interesting, considering he did a 2-part taped teaching at one point to try to insert the athletic terminology into Ephesians 6. Yes, it IS interesting. They were each doing their own thing in their own way. The apple doesn't fall far from the tree...

Yes they were.

Just to chime in a little as one who was at HQ during the time prior to and during the first few productions, and I was on the Research Team then to boot. LCM never, I repeat never, checked any of his so-called "research" he said went into that production with anyone I know of on the team at that time, including Walter Cummins, the head of the Research Department. Not that it would've made much difference, IMO. Anyhow, we were on "the other side of the hall" literally and figuratively. Whew. Some of us wanted no part of what he was doing. Some of us did more than roll our eyes about it. It was VERY strange being there at that time...

This thread raises an old issue for me. In 1985 I went on the Bible Lands Tour with twi followers. At the time I was on the Research Team. I remember on the boat ride we took across the "Sea of Galilee," I wondered about the difference between what an organization like ours was doing, really, and what Jesus did back in his time. Were we really doing something good like he probably did? Christ certainly didn't run an organization like ours, if the gospels are any reflection of what went on. What do we think we're doing with such a set up like ours? I didn't have the nerve then to voice my growing doubts about running a so-called Christian ministry in the 20th century largely based on what Paul sort of did, not what Jesus did. What is the real need for any group like twi in the world? What is the point of making money off of a bible class? Who is benefiting?

Oakspear has raised a serious point - about other people thinking they have the "right" to pry into your business. I happen to think it is important to ask ourselves some questions like: 1) Just what is the point of allowing anyone to pry into your life under the guise of being your "spiritual leader?" 2) Who do they think they are? 3) By what authority do they act? 4) Why would you allow that type of control over you? Make no mistake. There is no authority but your own that allows another to do that, at least in this country. Peace, Penworks

Yes, that's true for me and I regret now that I no longer have some books, papers, old photos of me growing up, etc. For anyone who doesn't know how this worked here's my experience: A couple of verses used to motivate and justify this destruction [of course a verse was usually quoted to justify everything] were: Colossians 3:9, 10 "Lie not one to another, seeing that you have put off the old man with his deeds; And have put on the new man which is renewed in the knowledge after the image of him that created him." This was made to mean the knowledge of the Bible (as taught by twi of course) and the version of the Bible as we have with the canon in KJV today. TWI never pointed out that this canon, much less the KJV, wasn't even defined much less in existence when this verse was written...but who cares about tedious details like that? <_< Another doozy: II Corinthians 5:17 "Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature, old things are passed away; behold all things are become new." Since I was convinced by vpw to believe these verses came directly from gawd almighty, then as any good little fanatic would do, I tried to wipe out all evidence of my identity prior to taking PFAL. After all I was a "new creature in Christ" and who I was "in the flesh" didn't matter anymore. Granted, there's no doubt there's value in changing bad habits, but it's a shame people fall for this sort of manipulation that breeds extreme behavior all across Christianity and other religious groups, too. Lots of creativity gets squelched, to say the least...and it can take years to recuperate from that destruction of identity. Lucky for us we live in a country where we CAN have the chance to recuperate and where the gov't (so far) cannot force us to adopt any particualr religious beliefs. I've been to some countries where a religion is so ingrained in the culture, it's unthinkable to question it. Let's KEEP our chance to have separate church and state issues (boy how did I get on this rant?) Speak up when and where you can. peace, penworks

How? Denial. I used to be the queen of denial (right, bad pun) so I know, although I did not return to twi after leaving. That thought never crossed my mind.

Agreed!

For anyone interested, here's my recent comment to John on his blog at the Way Corps site: John, We've known each other since 1970 when I was just a kid overtaken with the idealism of The Way at ECU. With due respect, I am stunned, in a way, that someone who thinks as much as you do, has decided to laud VP's works and methodology as you still do. I still feel that the conversation you and I had in my living room in 1987 after I left the Research Dept and HQ was when I had my chance to pry into your thinking...when I explained that I couldn't go around and say "Thus saith the Lord" since I didn't know 100% what the Lord might have said. You interpreted my concerns as being "burned out on twi" but that was your misunderstanding of the reasons I had for coming to that conclusion. I know how much I don't know about the history of text and that trying to create a relationship, as they say, with God based on ancient writings is futile for me. Oh well...it's clear you are a train without stops. I'm not so foolish to think I can change your mind about what you believe. I just want to say take care and in your most quiet moments, try and consider that maybe what you are so sure of just isn't so certain after all... Peace, Charlene

IMO it's ludicrous to think Ralph or anyone could portray John in a misrepresented way. All one needs to do is read John's own letters/statements to understand where he is coming from. And those are posted EVERYWHERE because he promotes himself so much. As I see it, Ralph told his story as he experienced it and because I was at HQ during that time, I can say I have no argument with his take on things. The whole system caved in because it was doomed from the start. A system built on sand can't stand [wishful thinking on my part...] Anyway, read any decent book on fundamentalist/cult movements and you'll find they are all based on fear. fear. fear. And fear will burn itself out eventually [more wishful thinking]. Who needs it? Now, moving on to more important issues...let's see...I think questions for each of us include what do we want to do in this world? Make it a better place? Love others? Understand and have compassion for different people's points of view and religious beliefs? Protect first amendment rights? Be good citizens? Tell our stories as honestly as we can? Get educated about what twi actually is and the belief system it perpetrates? Mmm...lots to ponder... Peace, penworks

View Karen's outstanding talk on the TED web site: http://www.ted.com/index.php/talks/karen_a...compassion.html

mmm...I used to think I could control my thoughts as described by twi, but then when I started meditating, it was amazing to see fast my "thoughts wandered" off of what I was trying to concentrate on...just a thought <_< that doesn't rule out the human ability to change our minds from one thought to another and decide which one to act upon... other stray thoughts on this topic: I remember wondering, when I started to question doctrines, that if "the adversary" could so easily deceive me like twi claimed, then the fact I was "standing with the household" wasn't providing much protection from him...

I agree with much of what you wrote here and have a further comment to make which may be a little off topic, but here goes: My comments below are observations I've had over the years about this part of what you wrote: "... people who exhibited Christian behavior (love, compassion, caring, giving, extending yourself to help someone)... " It seems to me these qualities are not exclusively "Christian" at all. I've observed them shown by many people from many different faiths and people who have no religion at all. Some of my best friends exhibit this behavior and they include Jews, Buddhists, agnostics, and atheists. I think Christianity has hijacked them due to the cherry-picked verses in the gospels that portray Jesus in such ways. But he was not a Christian! When I take a look at some of Paul's epistles, on which much of modern day Christianity was founded, for example, I often see vindictiveness for people who don't think like he thinks they should, I don't see compassion. TWI did the same thing to justify their terrible behavior towards anyone who disagreed with them, left the ministry, or of course those "awful critics" whose ideas they never fairly debated in public. I agree it's a terrible shame that so much harm was and is done by equating "ministry" in the bible with The Way Ministry. Other so-called Christian groups give the same sort of interpretation regarding their organizations. It's high time these groups underwent a radical change of some kind...but too bad - the fact is that to maintain competing groups like these organizations, we all know there usually has to be an "us vs. them" mentality.

Well, there are lots of topics here at gsc I think, that mention people like B.G. Leonard, Stiles, etc. Actively seeking their assistance is an interesting way of putting it. I think he looked for people to "back up" what he was teaching. During my Way Corps training in 71-73, he brought in an archeologist to "prove" there was "proof" of Bible events found in the ground of Israel, etc. He used tapes of exorcisms at the Advanced Class that illustrated and backed up his teachings on devil spirit possession. There's also Lamsa, of course, who he invited to HQ and he backed up VP's belief that Aramaic was the language the Bible was written in. IMO, there's no real proof for that claim, although lots of people believe it. That's all that comes to mind just now... I wonder what VP was really searching for. "The Truth" about what? He convinced me there was no truth found anywhere about anything outside the covers of the Bible. Yikes. peace, penworks

No, you were not the only one with attention that wandered from the tiresome propaganda... The notion that people can apply this verse is more complicated than I imagined when I took the Renewed Mind class at TWI when I was 19 yrs. It seems to me that TWI used the verse Romans 12:2 (and hundreds more) to justify the claim that by accepting twi teachings, which was equal to thinking "the word," a person would prove the will of God in this world: "And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that you may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God." etc. etc. This version of this verse, which is a version of a translation of a copy of a copy of a copy etc., is one that most scholars believe was originally written by Paul, unlike other epistles that seem as if he was author, such as the pastoral epistles. IMO, Paul had something in mind when he wrote this verse, but it's not clear to me what he was referring to, but the people he was writing to probably understood him. IMO "the world" is a vague term. It's hard to know what he meant since he lived in a vastly different culture than mine --- and a very long time ago: about 2,000 years ago. At any rate, he was often telling people what to do [note: if you believe the bible is the word of God that was sort of dictated to the writers, then I guess that what I have to say doesn't mean anything to you. We'll just agree to disagree on that point]. My point is that TWI wanted us to apply this verse, like many many more, to our modern-day situations without our knowing how or when to do so. Oh, yeah, I forgot. Our spiritual leaders would tell us when and how. Like, telling us that a new person in our fellowship who was asking questions all the time... well, he's "of the world," he's not hungry for the Word, he just wants to argue, so cross him off your list of referrals and don't waste God's time on him. If I'm going to renew my mind to this verse, what do I identify as "the world"? It sometimes became a matter of shunning things like participating in Halloween, listening to pop music, etc. But then it got confusing when we were supposed to put God's word in culture, too. How would I know when I was really not conforming to the world but somehow re-making the world by re-interpreting it, getting God's Word in it, into the culture, blah blah blah. It became very confusing when I stopped to think about it. So I didn't think about it. I did not really do that until about 15 years into the ministry. Yikes. Then I left. IMO, this verse also assumes we are sort of like blank slates that can be written on and changed. It only addresses the mind. I have nothing against changing my mind in an effort to be more loving, more patient, etc. But clearly this dictate from Paul does not consider emotions, the complex nature of the brain, concepts like nature vs. nurture, etc. To be fair, how could Paul address these things? Which is part of my point. I have found that this book, the Bible, [which is an anthology, which carries its own issues, as such] is rarely relevant to my life. I soul searched this question: What value is this ancient text to my daily life now? Well, if I cherry-pick some "positive" verses like ones about love that are used at weddings all the time, I feel good. But is that necessary? [i'll refrain from expanding on this]. Here's a link to a talk by someone who IMO has something to add to the conversation about behavior and what makes us the way we are: http://www.ted.com/index.php/talks/steven_...lank_slate.html peace, penworks