penworks

Been doing this for years and years...it's an adventure! Not sure what you mean by "your faith" though. I hold to no particular religious "belief system" anymore, but rather try to stay in touch with my intuition and act with compassion (not always successful, for sure) which is my way of describing a spiritual part of my life... Have you checked out any books by Karen Armstrong who writes wonderful histories of religion? I highly recommend her work.

Agree. And IMO, Dontworrybehappy summed it all up.

brideofjc Posted Today, 07:25 PM QUOTE(penworks @ Apr 28 2008, 01:41 PM) One bit of info to add to this thread: In '87 after I'd left HQ and was far far away, I told the leader of the first offshoot that unlike him, I wasn't comfortable with assuming that the keys to research, etc. that VP taught were right. For instance, I wondered what the word "scripture" really referred to in that verse that says all scripture is given by inspiration of God, etc. I told him that as far as I knew, the cannon of the Bible wasn't established at the time that verse was written so how could "scripture" in that verse refer to the whole Bible as we have it today? He said he didn't have time to do all that research... That's one reason why I had a problem with "offshoots." So I went to college, read lots of books, and got a degree in English. brideofjc The Greek word simply means "writings" which would include OT and the new forming NT, even though they weren't calling it that yet. penworks: That's my point. There was no NT yet. There was no Bible yet. Didn't VPW teach that this word "scripture" referred to the Bible? Seems to me his stance was that the Bible, from Genesis to Revelation was what the word "scripture" referred to here. Maybe I'm wrong...but I think he got this idea from another fundamentalist...

Well, my story is off this topic, so I'll save it for another time...

I found this web site and wondered who is running it? http://www.eternallyblessed.com/music.html I recognize some of the musicians' names displayed on the Music/Audio page, but does anyone here know who is responsible for the site?

I read about this somewhere on this site before or else it is recorded in Kahler's book, The Cult That Snapped. This is insideous beyond words. Does anyone know how it was investigated/reported? What year did this happen?

Cheers! It's a beautiful day here in sunny Florida for such a day.

Ditto to this by MountaintopCO: "How could VPW have confronted those guys when he created them in his own image. He would have had to confront him self and that would have never happened. All VPW could do is criticize what he had created not the root of the cause…the creator, himself." peace, penworks

Ditto to this by shellon: "I was now able to do whatever I wanted, whatever the hell that was. But it was mine!" 1987. It felt grand to be my own "cause" from then on... peace, penworks

One bit of info to add to this thread: In '87 after I'd left HQ and was far far away, I told the leader of the first offshoot that unlike him, I wasn't comfortable with assuming that the keys to research, etc. that VP taught were right. For instance, I wondered what the word "scripture" really referred to in that verse that says all scripture is given by inspiration of God, etc. I told him that as far as I knew, the cannon of the Bible wasn't established at the time that verse was written so how could "scripture" in that verse refer to the whole Bible as we have it today? He said he didn't have time to do all that research... That's one reason why I had a problem with "offshoots." So I went to college, read lots of books, and got a degree in English.

I talked with John S. in his home near HQ the day after he was fired. He was devestated as we all were, financially left hung out to dry, like R.D., his house was being watched, etc. and he recounted some of R.D.'s part in this story which we hear now in full on GSC in this interview. The extent of VP's covert activity apparently goes back to Van Wert days. We know now that the "lockbox" intimidation technique was the way it was all kept secret. I agree with Paw that it is good to go back to these events and gain perspective. It is, however, sickening for me. VP and his trained puppets, L*M, etc. were and are sick sick sick people who've caused untold damage to hundreds of people. I feel sick thinking about all this...but thankful this interview was aired. BTW - I was able to leave hq and twi not long after R.D...but that's another story.

Very well articulated, socks! First, I'd like thank you for pointing out the following which also applies to my situation. I was in the 2nd Corps: "...not everyone in the Way Corps or Way Staff ever heard of or knew anything about any kind of doctrinally accepted stance on extra-marital sex, aka "adultery". In fact I don't think the vast majority knew about it or ever had it presented to them. When Ralph says he didn't, I believe him ...People did what they did and sometimes "mistakes" were made but I personally never heard it handled that way. So I could imagine his surprise and resistance to the idea." Second, I feel that RD's recounting of the events at HQ after the reading of PoP is a very good one. I was there. Third, take it from me, it is not an easy task to revisit that time at HQ. It is very emotional and draining and takes a toll. It's not something I enjoy doing, that's for sure! I admire his calm, step-by-step account of each part of his story. Peace, penworks

I agree with "the third trunk leader" that HQ was a "zoo" after the reading of PoP. It was a terrible, hurtful, confusing time for many people, even if they had a way of keeping themselves distanced in their minds, which I tried to do. Friends turned against friends. Family turned against family. Paranoia was rampant. I was there. I remember. penworks

rhino: "Whether it was done correctly and really added or subtracted ... I'll leave that answer to the scholars." penworks: Agree. That's where biblical studies belong - with scholars who are trained and educated in that field of literature. For people like me who are not, I then ask what those scholars' motives for doing it are, what their methods are, what their expectations are, and then I ask many other questions about the value of biblical research in modern times (and the money involved, the bible publishing industry, etc. but that's another story). But all this is just a hobby of mine... peace, penworks

I, too, am very glad this interview is available here. It provides a very important perspective and record of events that have impacted so many lives in such destructive ways. Thanks, Paw and thanks to you "third trunk leader" for posting it. cheers! penworks

Paw, Thanks again for all your efforts here at GSC and most recently for the anniversary interview covering 86-89 events. That was an excellent idea and the "third trunk leader" did a very fine job! For me, he provided some missing puzzle pieces that have left me wondering for 21 years... Love to both of you, penworks

Seems to me that this thread is relevant to the current one on plagarism, so thought I'd bring it out of the dust bin of 2005. peace, penworks

Thanks, Paw, this is full of outstanding messages! staying hungry, penworks

I've seen this documentary, also. Since it was made, I understand Jesus Camp has been discontinued. Newsflash: In our newspaper this morning I read that tonight, 4-12-08, "CBS' 48 Hours offers an intimate look at The Lord's Boot Camp, an interdenominational evangelical group in Merritt Island [Florida] that trains teen missionaries. The program premieres at 8:00 tonight on WKMG-Channel 6. The Lord's Boot Camp is a collaboration between the newsmagazine and Loki Films, makers of Jesus Camp, an Oscar-nominated documentary." IMO, these camps take advantage of teens. Teens have underdeveloped brains that don't allow them to understand what they are really involved with. Because teen brains are not fully developed, they lack of the capacity to make decisions that reflect they understand the ramifications of their actions. This has been scientifically shown. Human brains are not fully developed until the early 20's. IMO these teen camps and trainings are immoral and unethical. Period. Edited by penworks.

T-bone said: Religious passion is a powerful force. TWI took advantage of that - yeah, ol' vp figured out how to harness that power...he got people to hitch their wagons onto his grand delusion - We're the only ones working for the one true God! Dat's riiiiiiight! He told me so...audibly!!!! The psychological entanglement wrought ever so subtly on followers will ratchet-up as one "ascends" the hierarchy of TWI. Sure, there was peer pressure. But that only reinforced the mindset drummed into "the truly committed ones" – on Corps Night, in Corps meetings, in the atmosphere of household public opinion…I bet just about any "significant" teaching to fall on the ears of those "dedicated to a lifetime of Christian service" were peppered with those "lovely ties that bind" – ideas that drive the barbed hooks deeper into the heart: Where else are you going to go? To walk out on God's ministry is to plunge into oblivion. Who else is rightly dividing the Word? Remember who taught you the Word. You're to be especially good to the household. Penworks says: Ditto. Anyone with an interest in how techniques are used to inculcate these ideas might want to check out some reading on cults, like Combatting Cult Mind Control by Steven Hassan. It is very thorough and easy to read. When I left twi in 1987 I sure wish a book like this had been around then...there were a few like Mind Benders and Snapping, but they're not as good, IMO. I may sound like a broken record (and a book nerd) because I recommend this book on many different posts here at GSC, but hey - if you want to really understand something, it helps to do some in-depth reading that you can't get in short posts like these...

Well, Oakspear, you aren't missing much...IMO. These discussions are valuable to some, but to me they're a tangled web of sorting out a lot of messy and ill-conceived research. I think our time is better spent doing something else. I think there are enough topics at GSC already to substantiate the fact the VP stole, borrowed, tweaked, misrepresented and otherwise contorted other people's Bible research. His zeal to prove something that cannot be proven (the Bible is the Word of God, the Bible is perfect, etc.) drove some of us crazy long enough...I think he missed the important fact that the scriptures are products from various cultures from various times for various reasons and offer various levels of various sorts of enlightenment, etc. (now that's a record for the number of times I've used the same word in one sentence). I think they've been made out to be something they were never intended to be. I'll stop now... I'm not trying to disillusion anyone who still feels differently. My "beliefs" are not necessarily for everyone...I'm just sharing part of my own personal experience. peace, penworks

My two in-residence Way Corps years (I was a teenager) were spent in trailer #6 at the Way's headquaters outside of New Knoxville. For awhile, I loved being out in the country...the adventure of learning about farm life, the quiet mornings running down the road memorizing scripture, the inspiring orange sunsets over the corn fields. But that lovely hill-covered area of Ohio only fed into the isolation practices that enabled doctrines to be implanted in my mind more effectively than in a city. We had fewer distractions on "the farm." Because I was enamored with the Way's doctrines and believed that God wanted me to be there - and I was so very young and inexperienced - I was blind to what was really happening to me. And I'm sure there are other factors, but that's another story. Isolation from TV news, newspapers, radio, influence of family, friends, etc. was a perfect environment for this indoctrination. The "townies" were only people to be converted, the "locals" were future targets for witnessing nights and objects of criticism for their unbelief and their "negative" opinions about what was going on at HQ. Isolation is only one thing that helps make mind control techniques effective. For further reading, check out Combatting Cult Mind Control by Stephen Hassan That's just the beginning of the story...for other stories related to living there, read other posts here at GSC - there are many... peace, penworks

These are heartbreaking incidents, many of which were not known to most people in the ministry at the time they happened. Too bad stories like this did not make it into the newspapers. Perhaps investigations could have been done that would've stopped further such activities of twi. Perhaps if we keep typing away on GSC, we can make a dent in the numbers of people who get involved with twi in any way shape or form. peace, penworks

Ditto. Thanks, Paw! Peace, Penworks

Didn't mean to throw around $10 words, just trying to throw some light on a complex subject. To me, I try and remember the Bible is made up of a lot of different documents that were written at different times in history and influenced by various cultures. And their world outlooks were vastly different from ours. For instance, all of those documents (books of the Bible) were written when people believed the world was flat. Just imagine that maybe there are very plausible reasons to value those documents instead of labeling them the "The Word of God." Guess I have been very curious about where that idea came from. I know VPW got sold on it by Rosalind Rinker. When you check into who she was, you find she was a Christian fundamentalist. Fundamentalism, which VP denied he was into, has a basic tenant that the Bible is inerrant, and that just means without a mistake or error. That is a widely disputed claim. THere are sound and respectable reasons for challenging that claim, but it takes more than posts here at GSC to get into it. But for those interested, the info is easily accessible at the library, books for sale at Amazon etc. and various sites all over the Internet... I just think we need to be careful about assuming that just because these documents were included in between those 2 covers this makes them "perfect." The people who decided which books to include had certain reasons, some of which were political. Some of those documents were assumed to be written by Paul but recent discoveries show they weren't. As far as translations and versions go, if a person says the Bible is the Word of God, I usually ask which version or translation is he or she referring to? If each word is supposed to be perfect, we have a problem right off the bat when we translate from one language (i.e. Greek) into English or Latin or Spanish. The translator has to make subjective decisions about which word to use. (Hence, those literal translations according to usage that are referred to by another poster here.) Anyhow, this post is too long already. I say, life is more fun and interesting doing other things than wrangling about these issues which take a lot of study by others trained more than me. I just have a lot of questions and not a lot of answers. I'm just an amatuer anyhow...