rascal

VPW was a very evil man...his doctrine ... his minstry..the people he trained led people away from God in the name of God...and that people are continuing to build lives and ministries on this deception is frustrating and very sad.

Exactly...destroyed the souls...

Seems to me that a righteous God wouldn`t lead some to a particular place and person proclaiming it a refuge and safe haven...and others to the same place for life altering pain... maybe even complete destruction....

This argument that *Hey, I personally benefited from twi ...therefor what happened to you is really inconsequential* has always chapped my bu tt.

It` like saying ... obviously God loved and blessed me, but apparently just didn`t give a crap about you...reminds me of a seriously disfunctional family with a really abusive parent.

I think that to label vpw as a Godly man is to continue to hide what and what he really was.

The idea of God covering for vpw or that some how what happened was ok because of who vp was or what he taught deeply troubles me.

In essence john is saying that God just didn`t give a crap about those who were hurt ...

If it was from God....wouldn`t it have been a safe haven, a refuge for everyone?

Come on....Where was their safe haven? Where was their refuge? Where was the deliverance for these guys?

Why would some have found a safe haven...some find they were disposable??

I think that this is rediculous.

Loved that.

Dismissing moral superiority, I think is a very convenient way to explain a lack of and to dismiss the necessity of living as a person of character and integrity. Why bother or try if it is just a a myth??

Seems like a good bit of the doctrine in twi was designed to do this...justify and excuse any damned behavior one wishes to embrace regardless of the consequences or destruction.

Just plain creepy

I guess it deeply offends me to be considered on the same moral level as a damned alcoholic thieving serial rapist who claimed it as his due in the name of God....

Just sick.

from satori

Thank you for the updates.

That teaching was foundational in supporting abusive behavior and our acceptance for responsibility. I had forgotten that the source went so far back.

I remember being taught and believing that if my husband ever hit me...it was my fault for giving him reason :(

I remember being taught that being screamed at by leadership was my fault for not being sharp enough....Good grief...I cannot believe that I believed this.

Karl, all I can say is....you were right.

Cathy

Oh my goodness!!!

Two people whom I have so much respect for finding joy and happiness in each other!

I am so excited for you both.

What a coincidence!

I don't look like Fabio at all EITHER !

:unsure:

No kidding?

Lol Mike....I don`t think that you would hurt me either :)

It was just the look on paws face...and the only gs mike I knew had no use for me.

Ahhh the terror of the park ranger...the mad scurry to comply with his orders...the guys guzzling from whichever direction his back was turned when his attention was diverted...

Meeting greasespotters whom we had talked with and shared our lives for years....

Shoot Paw, that WAS a great video...I`d like to see it again

In Kentucky Belles parents took us all to mammoth cave. The kids fished in the little pond.

We lost pawtucket for a day.

In fall creek falls...the kids threw poison oak covered wood on the campfire before they roasted their hot dogs and marshmellows and hot dogs...they were a mess before the next morning...lol

The only reason that I knew I was in the right place was that the one poster, herbaljuan, that I had met was outside and said howdy.

I've never let Rascal forget it either. I did a video that weekend, wonder where it is. Those were fun times

THAT was horrible....omg...he said his name was mike...and the only mike I knew was unbalanced imo...and this BIG guy had my hand...And I couldn`t get away...and he was going to hurt ...me...I guess all of the horror was showing on my face....it scared poor paw....

THEN I find out who it really is after making him really really uncomfortable...

Here I was meeting THE pawtucket celebrity, personal hero...for the first time...and I make such an outstanding first impression don`t you know :)

hmmmm, I'm not 100% sure, but wasn't the roast with the cops in TN and the snipe hunt in KY?

I'm thinking those were two different years. (I have been wrong a time or two before so I'm not saying I'm positive,

but I'm thinking maybe...)

It was tenn ...

It was Rascals kid her friends kid and dejarneros kid...all three under 11 I think...lost in the dark woods of tenn...I`m hearing bankos playin...The look in my eyes???? The hysteria in my voice...the rage with those who left the kids...omg I never saw a camp site clear out so fast in search...lmao....

Makes sense; I think rascal's husband might have been involved...

Little Hawk staged the snipe hunt for shellons benefit...Rascal husband (guest spouse) was supposed to keep the kids safe....but had been in the pear juice so forgot...little hawks son corey being the good sport that he was ... left the kids in the woods...they paid him back by hitting him with rocks when he tried to sc are him though

We were young, naieve, vulnerable. You saw that and exploited our need, manipulated us into believing that you held the answeres to our suffering. Dirty, filthy, vile old pervs, sating their wicked lusts...filling their bloated bellies ...exploiting through our vulnerabilities.... promising all the answers to life and Godliness if we would just submit ....

For what you did to me....For what you did to my brothers and sisters, for the families you divided and destroyed, for the children neglected and abused, for the trusting who died...for the babies aborted...for the lives that were hijacked...for the people used and discarded when their usefulness exhausted.....for the people who will struggle for the rest of their lives dealing with the consequences of our involvement...the broken hearts...the destroyed souls....the shattered lives....for the people that are still ensnared ....for all of this evil perpetrated in the name of God...for that which was seized by claiming the authority of God......there can be no justice.

Words fail to communicate the depths of my disgust and revulsion for your depravity.

So I guess I will simply have to settle with borrowing some of Shellons well worded sentiments...FU CK You TWI!

I can only hope that if there really is a God and some day there really is going to be an afterlife.....and that one day you will answer for the atrocities you have committed.

I think that if you were to attend showing your undeniable good health, peace, joy, prosperity etc....it might be a witness of sorts as to the goodness of God as a part of your life even outside of twi.

Maybe people wouldn`t feel so entrapped.

Whew...Greasespot has been so instrumental in my healing. I feel almost panicky at the thought of loosing this anchor..

Thank you for all of the effort put into keeping this place up and running.

Then you disobey Jesus.

Nope, you misrepresent Jesus and his teachings when you make that statement. He didn`t tell anyone to forgive the pharacees and saducees. He called em vile names and condemned their actions.

Think I will follow Jesus` example of how to address those whom steal and destroy in the name of God.

Shellon and sweet (((K))

Sigh, I understand being sick with no answers :(

You don`t know what you are fighting, how to attack the enemy you cannot see. It is a long process of elimination. You guys are in my prayers.

but can you "forgive" on the behalf of others?

seems only the almighty has that kind of authority..

the only reasonable or fair way of doing that would be to provide restitution for the wronged first.

what if all they want isn't eternal pie in the sky, but a small, insignificant return of their time and money, and some their youth and innocence?

seems the almighty should be able to perform this lesser task as well..

They cannot restore what was taken or mitigate the damage wrought in s many cases. What they could do is at least recognize the devastation, maybe even grieve with us over what was destroyed :(

I think that the total disassociation from ones responsibility might even fall under the description of *conscience seared with a hot iron* Pretend that it isn`t their problem bury themselves in word studies, believing that their knowlege and busy work makes them spiritual, that what they do is important to God.

In answer to the original question, have I ever received an apology? Absolutely not. They apparently feel that they do not owe one. Rather instead, I have heard all kinds of excuses as to why it isn`t necessary.

An undeniable indication that they just don`t care what they have done, an unbelievable lack of simple common decency or even basic understanding of Christian principle or responsibility.

In telling people that they ought to forgive, it makes the damage perpetrated someone elses problem. No big deal, if the victim forgives, it`s all fixed pretty, wiped away, hidden from view...The perpetrators are free to present their shiny clean faces and clear consciences to the world.

I have to agree with Ham, the lack of empathy, compassion not to mention down right common decency would be a strong indicator that these people never really were our brothers and sister :)

Forgive them?? Not freaking likely. I don`t think it even advisable.

maybe.. but then again, maybe it depends on how you define "we".

Maybe the worst thing they did.. call themselves our (or my) brethren. Forgive them? I don't know if one even can- they've proven to my satisfaction that they are not my brethren.. more like they are proven deceivers.

It would be like a community trying to forgive a serial killer or something..

why is it when one rubs a little veneer of the bible on a godless organization, things are supposed to so different?

They, rosie, the donster, et. al.. are spiritual serial killers.. they simply perform a function of what they are.

no, I'll never get the time back, nor the money. It's like the thought of collecting social security in about ten years or so..

Too true Mr.. Ham :)

Scriptures also say that God claims vengeance is his,and that he will repay....That doesn`t sound very forgiving to me. Is God going to cut them some slack for the evil perpetrated just because I decide to forgive them?? Where is repentance in there? Where is the accountability?

Seems rather presumptuous to think that I have any business in even considering forgiving these guys for the evil they personally committed in the name of God.

Not my call really, that is between them and God. I am still madder than hell at what they did in God`s name though.

Honestly to me whether or not they ask for fogiveness is a moot point. I can forgive if they do, or if they don't. If I use the Bible as standard,

Guess If you want to use the bible as a standard, I read where God apparently requires repentance and us actually asking before HE forgives, never simply as a matter of course or to make himself feel better.

Maybe Jesus` prayers for those that crucified him were to avert the consequences of their actions because they didn`t know what they were doing....

In direct contrast, the board of twi is fully aware of the immorality and consequences of their despicable behavior.

Kind of like the pharacees that preyed on people in God`s name....Jesus certainly didn`t tell us to pray for THEM...He was down right ....ed.

Folks can forgive if they want, but I think a line is crossed when it is claimed that is what God expects of us without the prerequisit of repentance and asking.

TWI was not a Christian organization and those who were involved did not enjoy a Christian experience. That is not to say that no one in TWI was a Christian. I am saying that following VP and even the current teachings of TWI will not lead one to Christ.

Well said, sadly people that I love live life post twi feverishly applying principles, researching, faithfully operating the keys learned that they believe make them Christian. The arrogance of their knowledge seems to doom them to the life of pretend :(

We have put down roots and it is good :)

I think that in moving repeatedly one has no ties with the outside world, no chance to build trust with people outside of twi. It made it so much easier to subscribe to their warped views. I think that was a huge part of our dependence on them.